But they WILL control who they allow at the graveside service when she is buried next to her husband.
I'm not suggesting this, mind you, my opinions notwithstanding, a funeral/memorial service should be a time for showing love and respect for the deceased and their family...but how would they go about stopping ten thousand people if they decided to march together to the grave site? Or even one thousand?
Think about it dmiller, hypothetically of course. Two people, or even a dozen, are not that hard to stop. How many "safety" people does TWI have anyway? Couldn't be more than a double handful, I'd bet.
Unless they shot them, how could even a few hundred, marching together, not stopping for anything, be stopped? Oh sure, a few could be detained, but what about the rest?
Naturally, I'm not advocating this, gee, that would be trespassing. And that would be bad.
Wouldn't it be nice if all who were involved in TWI over the years did go the her gravesite at TWI II. Boy they would really see what they have been missing all these years and finally see all of those that were not greasespots by midnight. What a witness to those left in.I really pray that there is a huge showing of believers that left and show them all what The Body of Christ is really about.
Honestly, I would hope it would be about respect for Mrs. W., not a slap in TWI's face. There are other avenues for that.
George
George don't put words in my mouth and read into this something that is not there.
I highlighted the part that I thought was meant as an "in your face" to TWI. I'm sorry if that's not what you intended.
Unless they shot them, how could even a few hundred, marching together, not stopping for anything, be stopped? Oh sure, a few could be detained, but what about the rest?
This sort of insinuated hyperbole serves what purpose?
Remember how TWI's crack (smoking) legal team used tongue-in-cheek posts about peeing in the Fountain of Living Waters to block unauthorized access to the Way Weeds for similar purposes?
When the woman dies, have a memorial if you're moved to. Have it at some local eatery where non-family can gather and reminisce, and the family is welcomed.
Curse The Way, damn The Way, the 1st Amendment lives on. But find a better time and place than the occasion of Mrs. Wierwille's passing for it. On that day above almost any other, she is a mother, not your martyr.
Oakspear, you're usually pretty reasonable. I don't know why you're bringing up "ten thousand marching" in connection with anyone's memorial service. What are you thinking??
Okay, I don't know where I came up with ten thousand...must have been halloopinatin'! But "even a few hundred marching together" is a bizarre idea in the context of the subject at hand, and my question remains. What on earth are you thinking?
Curse The Way, damn The Way, the 1st Amendment lives on. But find a better time and place than the occasion of Mrs. Wierwille's passing for it. On that day above almost any other, she is a mother, not your martyr.
Thank you, Satori.
It's hard enough to bury your mother. But if people you barely even know, or total strangers, use the occasion to further their own personal agenda at the expense of your feelings, how much harder does this day have to be???!!!
Please think about what you are suggesting, Oakspear!
Several weeks ago when Sara and I talked about the imminent passing of her mother, even then her heart was breaking and tears were welling up in her eyes already. Give this family a break. Let them bury their mother in peace, and don't dare suggest using that terrible day to make your own personal statement. You can make those statements here. Or maybe at TWI on another day.
But don't you dare even suggest turning that painful, terrible day into a circus for her children just be cause you or a few other people want to make your point with The Way International.
At the very least, that suggestion is thoughtless. At the most, it is heartless.
Come on. I believe you're a better person than that.
Again thinking about Mrs. W. She was the WWII generation where devorce was out of the question, stand by your man was a motto to live by and of a German background .Where male dominance was paramont and submission an accepted way of life for women. I'm sure she was so schooled in keeping quite and just suport what ever the latest temperment was or is of her male counter part. In this day and time her behavior would not be acceptable .(Praise God). So I am not the critic of why she didn't take a stand. She did. In the only way she new how and Believed in. Even if she was able to leave with the kids at any given time...Don't you think that VPW would have canived ways to distroy her reputation and label her pssesed? Think about it. What she did or failed to do was probly the hardest decisions she has ever made ...looking at the long term effect. And I bet some of the decisions she made was feared based. How can it not be.
My posts are best understood in the context of my earlier posts, and not out of context.
I remarked that I saw some of what was going on on this thread as "hero worship", perhaps too strong a term, but the best I could come up with at the time. I do believe that many of us ex-wayfers look at Mrs. Wierwille as someone "at the top" who never screwed us over, was always nice and sweet and giving, and therefore a possible reason to believe that there was some purity in the organization at one time. Hanging on to this gives us a reason to think we weren't total idiots for being involved in an organization that we now know was deceitful and abusive on so many levels.
A poster on another thread recalled when Mrs. Wierwille was told by some people who were leaving TWI that they still loved her. This poster recalled that Mrs. W reproved them, suggesting that it wasn't really love, agape, if they were rejecting the ministry that she stood with. I heard similar remarks from her at a Word in Business in the early 90's. I don't know why she did what she did or said what she did, and will never know. While I disagree with Raf about it being none of our business, I would not badger her family, especially at this late date. Nonetheless, the putting-on-a-pedestal (perhaps a better term than "hero worship) of Mrs. Wierwille, in light of her public, and convincing stand in support of Martindale, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Another development on this thread was the speculation about her memorial service. One poster stated that an open service would take place in St. Mary's, and another mentioned a burial "next to her husband", which means on TWI grounds. One poster gushed about innies and outies hugging each other, and to me seemed to be describing the service as a great coming-together of the current wayfers and the legions of ex-wayfers. Another poster mentioned how TWI controlled access to their grounds. It was in this context that I mentioned tens of thousands of people marching to TWI. Heck, in the fantasized utopia of reconciled innies and outies imagined by one of our posters they'd all be milling around hugging and crying, what's a little extra fantasy?
So, I'm NOT advocating a "funeral march on TWI", I'm NOT planning on attending myself, nor do I plan on observing in any way, nor disruting it in any way.
And by the way, everybody who is speculating on the funeral: she's still ALIVE!!!
...and by the way: I'll "dare" what I choose to...
But lines like "Naturally, I'm not advocating this, gee, that would be trespassing. And that would be bad" and "I'm not suggesting this, mind you, my opinions notwithstanding..." imply just the opposite of their literal meanings.
And while you wouldn't be there, like Robert Preston playing Harold Hill, you might just encourage a few yahoos to try it, and "that would be bad."
I don't think it would be considered hero worship to display the affection and respect Mrs. Wierwille earned all of her life. I know she of course supported the Way International. Her husband founded it and how can you not? Well, in the end, I guess she did not, pretty much isolated as her family was kept from her own home.
I am hoping J.P. or another Wierwille family member, most likely in another ministry, that knew her well, could write a book about her heart and life. I would buy that in a heartbeat. I knew Mrs. Wierwille better than VPW. I personally saw her love the unlovable. I am not making this up. Whatever "faults she had I don't even want to think about, because I don't need to know them now.
She was truly born to serve.
The Wierwille family might be able to remove VPW from his site at the fountain of living waters (as bad as that sounds) and have him re-interred with Mrs. Wierwille in a much more pleasant and suitable place where family and friends can pay respects unhindered.
Not sure if that would happen or not. But I do hope Mrs. Wierwille stays with us as long as possible and pain-free.
I have pleasant memories of this lady. She made TWI look pretty good by her presence, and when she was absent, the darkness was certainly felt in that organization.
And while you wouldn't be there, like Robert Preston playing Harold Hill, you might just encourage a few yahoos to try it, and "that would be bad."
Holy wowburgers satori, do you really think that there's anybody out there THAT freakin' stupid?
Not if you put it that way, no. But it wouldn't take much to make a compelling "suggestion."
And I doubt that I possess even a fraction of that kind of influence.
We all have that kind of influence (if we only knew it). A suggestion can be more effective than any command. Your posts are suggestive, and that was clearly (IMHO) your intent. I don't think you were trying to get GS'ers to crash the funeral. I think you were trying to get TWI to think it could happen. I think you were tweaking them just a little.
But the suggestions were there, and I wouldn't put it past at least a few people out there to consider it.
When I came to HQ to work I was four months into my 21st year, just a kid a long way from home, not only in term of the miles. I was a young black kid from the big city moved to the farm. Imagine that. I thought the whole place stunk and was amazed that anyone would actually WANT to spread cow, pig and human excrement all over their yard!
Mrs. went out of her way to make sure I felt at home and through that first year while I lived there she became like a surrogate Grandmother to me. Through the years I have nothing but fond memories of time spent with her.
From times when she would come to the upper room to check on us guys living there awaiting our permanemt housing assignments; she made sure we were warm enough and had enough blankets and clean bedclothes. There were the times sitting on the back stoop of the Wierwille home talking about things & stuff while waiting for VP to come home, to time when she & Wanda W. provided cookies & ice cream for our apprentice WC twig that met in her basement, to times when she showed me her personal photo albums & told stories of the old days of the ministry, to the time when we, together told VPW, please don't wear that (hideous outfit), to her gracious hosting of numerous events, holiday parties, and meals, weddings, receiving guests at Saturday Night Doos, providing hot chocolate for us iceskating on the pond, and just plain ol' interaction in the hallway. To the beautiful gifts she gave for my wedding and then for the birth of my firstborn child (who BTW arrived this afternoon at New Haven, CT for her first day at college).... Through the years Mrs. has been a solid, consistent pillar of the church and simply one of the finest examples of a human being I've ever seen, met or even heard of. AND, to my personal benefit a friend of mine.
Why didn't she leave TWI? In a very real sense she WAS TWI. Anyone who knows her, knows that. I never even considered that she would leave. You couldn't help but love her, as she was just plain ol' lovable.
To say it saddens me that she's in her last days of life on the planet is an huge understatement. It would be so unGodly to judge a person by their mistakes or faults and in my opinion, a mistake to even point them out during a person's last days. Especially one of her stature. I know her reasonably well, and the love she showed me during those young adult years of my life contributed to who I am today. I for one, count myself blessed to have had the opportunity to know her.
Several years after I had left TWI, I cashed on on some equity of being a the first lady personally and simply called the TWI switchboard and asked for her personal extension. They connected me, no question, and she answered the phone. I chatted with her for a few minutes and then asked if I could come visit her. She agreed and I drove right up to the Wierwille home, went to the back door and we sat on the side porch and had a nice visit.
We had coffee and cookies, just like about 15 years prior when I first came to HQ.
So much had changed in the ministry, yet nothing was different about her and our relationship. I just caught her up with the events of my life since we'd last spoken and talked to her aobut some personal, mentoring type things that you'd talk to your grandmother about. Both of my own parents are awaiting the return and were at the time. Mrs. talked to me about some things I wanted to have talked to my mother about, were she still alive.
Mrs. W. treated me like I was her own son. She told me that the ministry would welcome me back and that her door was always open to me and mine. I graciously declined to come back to TWI but told her I would always consider coming to visit her from time to time and would maybe bring my kids by the next time.
Acknowledging Mrs. Wierwille for the qualities she has and the love and affection she inspired in others is not empty hero worship. She was and is a heroin to her family and all who had the joy and privilege to know her, please do not allow whatever bitterness, no matter how well deserved it may be towards TWI as a whole to cast dispersions on this great lady.
She was in a position more difficult that any of ours. It was realtively easy for me to walk away from TWI the day they fired me and then again the day I visited Mrs. on the porch. Please, lets not disrespect her with some of the normal point/counterpoint discussions native to the cafe.
Mrs. VPW is, was and always will be the best thing that ever happened to TWI. Her life alone stands as a tribute to the fact that life is more complex than we sometimes think. Getting to know her was a good thing for my life. For me, I will never forget her, I cannot dismiss my time with TWI as "bad" or a waste, if for no other reason than friendship with The First Lady.
Hi all. I'm praying Mrs. W. will do as well as she can in her final years. She was a very considerate person when I knew her, thoughtful. Often the only one to rememember the little things that were very important to my wife and I, things others didn't know or forgot if they did. I have a wonderful, loving mother who's always been there for me so I never saw her in quite the same 'motherly' role as many, but I know she offered her time and love to many, many people who really appreciated it.
I would hope that people on all sides of the fence will consider their options with sensitivity, dignity and as much personal integrity as they can muster. Life - when it goes it seems it was barely here. Yet the golden moments seem to last for an eternity in our memories, if nowhere else. Every new day we make more memories to savor! Whatever they are, make some you'll be proud to have passed on.
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Oakspear
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dmiller
They already stopped two. Just two --- but I'm sure they would find a way.
:(-->
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Oakspear
Think about it dmiller, hypothetically of course. Two people, or even a dozen, are not that hard to stop. How many "safety" people does TWI have anyway? Couldn't be more than a double handful, I'd bet.
Unless they shot them, how could even a few hundred, marching together, not stopping for anything, be stopped? Oh sure, a few could be detained, but what about the rest?
Naturally, I'm not advocating this, gee, that would be trespassing. And that would be bad.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I highlighted the part that I thought was meant as an "in your face" to TWI. I'm sorry if that's not what you intended.
George
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satori001
Remember how TWI's crack (smoking) legal team used tongue-in-cheek posts about peeing in the Fountain of Living Waters to block unauthorized access to the Way Weeds for similar purposes?
When the woman dies, have a memorial if you're moved to. Have it at some local eatery where non-family can gather and reminisce, and the family is welcomed.
Curse The Way, damn The Way, the 1st Amendment lives on. But find a better time and place than the occasion of Mrs. Wierwille's passing for it. On that day above almost any other, she is a mother, not your martyr.
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Linda Z
Oakspear, you're usually pretty reasonable. I don't know why you're bringing up "ten thousand marching" in connection with anyone's memorial service. What are you thinking??
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Linda Z
Okay, I don't know where I came up with ten thousand...must have been halloopinatin'! But "even a few hundred marching together" is a bizarre idea in the context of the subject at hand, and my question remains. What on earth are you thinking?
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Catcup
Thank you, Satori.
It's hard enough to bury your mother. But if people you barely even know, or total strangers, use the occasion to further their own personal agenda at the expense of your feelings, how much harder does this day have to be???!!!
Please think about what you are suggesting, Oakspear!
Several weeks ago when Sara and I talked about the imminent passing of her mother, even then her heart was breaking and tears were welling up in her eyes already. Give this family a break. Let them bury their mother in peace, and don't dare suggest using that terrible day to make your own personal statement. You can make those statements here. Or maybe at TWI on another day.
But don't you dare even suggest turning that painful, terrible day into a circus for her children just be cause you or a few other people want to make your point with The Way International.
At the very least, that suggestion is thoughtless. At the most, it is heartless.
Come on. I believe you're a better person than that.
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Catcup
Sorry, double post
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Raf
You can say that again!
:)-->
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Catcup
LOL Raf!
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imbus
Again thinking about Mrs. W. She was the WWII generation where devorce was out of the question, stand by your man was a motto to live by and of a German background .Where male dominance was paramont and submission an accepted way of life for women. I'm sure she was so schooled in keeping quite and just suport what ever the latest temperment was or is of her male counter part. In this day and time her behavior would not be acceptable .(Praise God). So I am not the critic of why she didn't take a stand. She did. In the only way she new how and Believed in. Even if she was able to leave with the kids at any given time...Don't you think that VPW would have canived ways to distroy her reputation and label her pssesed? Think about it. What she did or failed to do was probly the hardest decisions she has ever made ...looking at the long term effect. And I bet some of the decisions she made was feared based. How can it not be.
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Oakspear
My posts are best understood in the context of my earlier posts, and not out of context.
I remarked that I saw some of what was going on on this thread as "hero worship", perhaps too strong a term, but the best I could come up with at the time. I do believe that many of us ex-wayfers look at Mrs. Wierwille as someone "at the top" who never screwed us over, was always nice and sweet and giving, and therefore a possible reason to believe that there was some purity in the organization at one time. Hanging on to this gives us a reason to think we weren't total idiots for being involved in an organization that we now know was deceitful and abusive on so many levels.
A poster on another thread recalled when Mrs. Wierwille was told by some people who were leaving TWI that they still loved her. This poster recalled that Mrs. W reproved them, suggesting that it wasn't really love, agape, if they were rejecting the ministry that she stood with. I heard similar remarks from her at a Word in Business in the early 90's. I don't know why she did what she did or said what she did, and will never know. While I disagree with Raf about it being none of our business, I would not badger her family, especially at this late date. Nonetheless, the putting-on-a-pedestal (perhaps a better term than "hero worship) of Mrs. Wierwille, in light of her public, and convincing stand in support of Martindale, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Another development on this thread was the speculation about her memorial service. One poster stated that an open service would take place in St. Mary's, and another mentioned a burial "next to her husband", which means on TWI grounds. One poster gushed about innies and outies hugging each other, and to me seemed to be describing the service as a great coming-together of the current wayfers and the legions of ex-wayfers. Another poster mentioned how TWI controlled access to their grounds. It was in this context that I mentioned tens of thousands of people marching to TWI. Heck, in the fantasized utopia of reconciled innies and outies imagined by one of our posters they'd all be milling around hugging and crying, what's a little extra fantasy?
So, I'm NOT advocating a "funeral march on TWI", I'm NOT planning on attending myself, nor do I plan on observing in any way, nor disruting it in any way.
And by the way, everybody who is speculating on the funeral: she's still ALIVE!!!
...and by the way: I'll "dare" what I choose to...
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Oakspear
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satori001
I was aware of the scriptural buildup Oakspear.
But lines like "Naturally, I'm not advocating this, gee, that would be trespassing. And that would be bad" and "I'm not suggesting this, mind you, my opinions notwithstanding..." imply just the opposite of their literal meanings.
And while you wouldn't be there, like Robert Preston playing Harold Hill, you might just encourage a few yahoos to try it, and "that would be bad."
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Eagle
I don't think it would be considered hero worship to display the affection and respect Mrs. Wierwille earned all of her life. I know she of course supported the Way International. Her husband founded it and how can you not? Well, in the end, I guess she did not, pretty much isolated as her family was kept from her own home.
I am hoping J.P. or another Wierwille family member, most likely in another ministry, that knew her well, could write a book about her heart and life. I would buy that in a heartbeat. I knew Mrs. Wierwille better than VPW. I personally saw her love the unlovable. I am not making this up. Whatever "faults she had I don't even want to think about, because I don't need to know them now.
She was truly born to serve.
The Wierwille family might be able to remove VPW from his site at the fountain of living waters (as bad as that sounds) and have him re-interred with Mrs. Wierwille in a much more pleasant and suitable place where family and friends can pay respects unhindered.
Not sure if that would happen or not. But I do hope Mrs. Wierwille stays with us as long as possible and pain-free.
I have pleasant memories of this lady. She made TWI look pretty good by her presence, and when she was absent, the darkness was certainly felt in that organization.
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
And I doubt that I possess even a fraction of that kind of influence.
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satori001
Originally posted by Oakspear:
Holy wowburgers satori, do you really think that there's anybody out there THAT freakin' stupid?Not if you put it that way, no. But it wouldn't take much to make a compelling "suggestion."
And I doubt that I possess even a fraction of that kind of influence.
We all have that kind of influence (if we only knew it). A suggestion can be more effective than any command. Your posts are suggestive, and that was clearly (IMHO) your intent. I don't think you were trying to get GS'ers to crash the funeral. I think you were trying to get TWI to think it could happen. I think you were tweaking them just a little.
But the suggestions were there, and I wouldn't put it past at least a few people out there to consider it.
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HCW
When I came to HQ to work I was four months into my 21st year, just a kid a long way from home, not only in term of the miles. I was a young black kid from the big city moved to the farm. Imagine that. I thought the whole place stunk and was amazed that anyone would actually WANT to spread cow, pig and human excrement all over their yard!
Mrs. went out of her way to make sure I felt at home and through that first year while I lived there she became like a surrogate Grandmother to me. Through the years I have nothing but fond memories of time spent with her.
From times when she would come to the upper room to check on us guys living there awaiting our permanemt housing assignments; she made sure we were warm enough and had enough blankets and clean bedclothes. There were the times sitting on the back stoop of the Wierwille home talking about things & stuff while waiting for VP to come home, to time when she & Wanda W. provided cookies & ice cream for our apprentice WC twig that met in her basement, to times when she showed me her personal photo albums & told stories of the old days of the ministry, to the time when we, together told VPW, please don't wear that (hideous outfit), to her gracious hosting of numerous events, holiday parties, and meals, weddings, receiving guests at Saturday Night Doos, providing hot chocolate for us iceskating on the pond, and just plain ol' interaction in the hallway. To the beautiful gifts she gave for my wedding and then for the birth of my firstborn child (who BTW arrived this afternoon at New Haven, CT for her first day at college).... Through the years Mrs. has been a solid, consistent pillar of the church and simply one of the finest examples of a human being I've ever seen, met or even heard of. AND, to my personal benefit a friend of mine.
Why didn't she leave TWI? In a very real sense she WAS TWI. Anyone who knows her, knows that. I never even considered that she would leave. You couldn't help but love her, as she was just plain ol' lovable.
To say it saddens me that she's in her last days of life on the planet is an huge understatement. It would be so unGodly to judge a person by their mistakes or faults and in my opinion, a mistake to even point them out during a person's last days. Especially one of her stature. I know her reasonably well, and the love she showed me during those young adult years of my life contributed to who I am today. I for one, count myself blessed to have had the opportunity to know her.
Several years after I had left TWI, I cashed on on some equity of being a the first lady personally and simply called the TWI switchboard and asked for her personal extension. They connected me, no question, and she answered the phone. I chatted with her for a few minutes and then asked if I could come visit her. She agreed and I drove right up to the Wierwille home, went to the back door and we sat on the side porch and had a nice visit.
We had coffee and cookies, just like about 15 years prior when I first came to HQ.
So much had changed in the ministry, yet nothing was different about her and our relationship. I just caught her up with the events of my life since we'd last spoken and talked to her aobut some personal, mentoring type things that you'd talk to your grandmother about. Both of my own parents are awaiting the return and were at the time. Mrs. talked to me about some things I wanted to have talked to my mother about, were she still alive.
Mrs. W. treated me like I was her own son. She told me that the ministry would welcome me back and that her door was always open to me and mine. I graciously declined to come back to TWI but told her I would always consider coming to visit her from time to time and would maybe bring my kids by the next time.
Acknowledging Mrs. Wierwille for the qualities she has and the love and affection she inspired in others is not empty hero worship. She was and is a heroin to her family and all who had the joy and privilege to know her, please do not allow whatever bitterness, no matter how well deserved it may be towards TWI as a whole to cast dispersions on this great lady.
She was in a position more difficult that any of ours. It was realtively easy for me to walk away from TWI the day they fired me and then again the day I visited Mrs. on the porch. Please, lets not disrespect her with some of the normal point/counterpoint discussions native to the cafe.
Mrs. VPW is, was and always will be the best thing that ever happened to TWI. Her life alone stands as a tribute to the fact that life is more complex than we sometimes think. Getting to know her was a good thing for my life. For me, I will never forget her, I cannot dismiss my time with TWI as "bad" or a waste, if for no other reason than friendship with The First Lady.
What a fitting title.
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oldiesman
What great statements. Thanks HCW.
:)-->
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danteh1
Mrs. W is a great person. too bad that TWI couldn't have patterned thier lives like hers.
They would still have a lot of great people that they have "kicked out" still in that could have made TWI a better place than what it is now.
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moony3424
Has anybody heard anything?
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socks
Hi all. I'm praying Mrs. W. will do as well as she can in her final years. She was a very considerate person when I knew her, thoughtful. Often the only one to rememember the little things that were very important to my wife and I, things others didn't know or forgot if they did. I have a wonderful, loving mother who's always been there for me so I never saw her in quite the same 'motherly' role as many, but I know she offered her time and love to many, many people who really appreciated it.
I would hope that people on all sides of the fence will consider their options with sensitivity, dignity and as much personal integrity as they can muster. Life - when it goes it seems it was barely here. Yet the golden moments seem to last for an eternity in our memories, if nowhere else. Every new day we make more memories to savor! Whatever they are, make some you'll be proud to have passed on.
Love you all.
-->
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