My marriage was almost a ministry activity. I think the things that saved it from that was that my husband never had any desire to control me--it is not his nature at all. He's a team player kind of guy. And he likes me to be happy. The head of the household, which we believed in, was never any big deal to us--he didn't want to make decisions that caused me more work, or made me unhappy, so we talked everything out.
Another saving grace--hubby's parents were completely different people in temperament, politics and religious views, yet they were very happy together.
BTW, I saw plenty of TWI women control their marriages through the magic of tattling to leadership when their spouse did something 'off the word.' Hubby and I thought they were nuts! How could that possibly make a marriage better? Then thier spouse would look for things to tattle on them about--sheesh.
We had plenty of interference in our marriage and family life by leadership as it was--neither of us had any desire for more.
After we left TWI (about a year or so later) we realized we were changing in doctrinal beliefs, and not necessarily in the same directions. We decided beliefs would not be an issue to fight about in our marriage, we could each have our own, we could be free to change. That area of our marriage has changed very much, but living the TWI lifestyle wasn't something we loved or wanted to continue doing, anyway.
We let our kids explore other beliefs, go to churches etc. One church group we did stop two of them from attending, since the two were coming home with an ugly attitude of 'We're Christian and you're Not' stuff, causing trouble with their other sibling and with neighbor kids. That elitist attitude is not welcome in our home, it causes division.
I feel sorry for the people who couldn't be married to a Trinitarian or what ever...my way or the highway is an ugly way to live, knowing a change in beliefs would mean the end of your marriage. Wow.
George, it was Belle's WayBrain thread-- I just put a note at the beginning of this thread in explanation-- Her thread was getting derailed by someone with an agenda and an axe to grind with me, so I put it out here so her thread could get the proper attention it deserves.
Go figure, though, the guy is still over there with a full head of steam on a choo-choo detour.
Hamm--
I am so sorry if this thread brought up some bad memories. TWI is an @$$hole farm-- just grows 'em by the bushelfull.
I, *** take you, ### to be my wife/husband; to have and to hold from this day forward; to honor, to cherish, to sustain, and to love with all my heart in every situation, under every condition, according to God's holy Word, and thereto I pledge to you myself.
I did it from memory, then looked it up. I only missed the phrase "to have and to hold."
Hubby #1 decided he'd rather pledge himself to a bottle.
Hubby #2 decided he's rather remake me in his own TWI-ish, narcissistic image, and do nothing himself.
Abigail cracks me up, because my current "significant other" is a pretty unobservant Jew. I respect his views. Heck, Abi, if we swapped guys would we look more respectable? Well, too bad, I ain't a gonna!
One of the best lessons I learned from marriage #1 was that I didn't have to be attached at the hip to be a partner. Rock on, Catcup!
good thread. thanks catcup for telling it like it is in your life. i'm impressed by what all of you have said.
just to chime in and add my two cents worth, my ex really, really, really, really didn't believe that I was entitled to an opinion. I mean, this was part of a belief system for him, hence, the ex status.
I feel very sad for women and men who live under that controling, religious spirit. It's also so uncomfortable to even be around a lot of ex way people who still cannot have peer relationships--they have to always be the ldr or the follower--no in-between (but that's another subject so I won't derail).
hubs and i treat each other with respect but we both have had controlling tendencies in the past. we've pretty much broken each other of that, but it still comes up at times and we work through it. we love each other very much and are very happy to be in each other's lives so it works out for us.
I've said this before. Marriages are like snowflakes and fingerprints: no two alike. If a marriage has a problem so severe that a third party is required, the third party should probably be extended family or the police, not some branch leader or other self appointed counseller.
The last twig coordinator we had in TWI was appalled that my wife knew what size tires fit our car and not me. It's bad enough he even thought like that much less making a big deal out of it. So ****ing what if I don't happen to know that fact. What else am I supposed to memorize that I don't have to deal with every day? This is just one example of how absurd the concept of 'cookie cutter marriages' is.
My ex thought that our marriage HAD to conform to TWI's cookie-cutter marriage and was constantly asking advice and whatnot from leaders. I was constantly undermined and in trouble for not wanting to conform or not doing a good enough job to conform to what he was told. It was a constant battle trying to balance being myself with the rules and expectations of TWI.
Everyone on this thread can think of marriages that ended in part due to allowing the meddleship of TWI leadership. In one state I lived spouses running to leadership with their personal, marital decisions or problems was encouraged. Getting that leadership feedback on whether you should buy a new car became a big deal! It made TWI the leaders of every marriage! How intrusive! Still boils my blood thinking about how they tried to micro-manage everyone's lives!
I myself had professional counseling after my marriage ended. The counselor said that the meddling (I told the counselor some of the TWI advice given)was the most destructive thing that could have happened in my marriage.
TWI tried to became the "head of the household" in the marriage. I knew folks who had their private sexual practices nosed into.
For TWI's own belief system (the man is the head), the true "head" of the marriage was replaced by the limb and region coordinators.
By going to the twig coordinator with your private marital business, you could bet it would go to the branch leader, then to the limb leader, then to the region coordinator, possibly the trunk leader if it was a big enough scoop. They all needed their "multitude of counselors", so by the time it was said and done, way too many people knew what was none of their business! Then mandates were handed down from the pontiffs!
Look at the incredibly wonderful marriage of LCM. Hmmm...where did that go! And why didn't Donna go with him? But that's another thread...
I went back and read the thread that lead to this one! I actually got a bit tired of reading it since I read your opening statement to this thread. It made the comments go on and on and on once you had given a statement. It was like watching a dog on the trail of a scent... only this was sprayed there by someone else.
I agreed that you were in an inquisition.
"How long have you been a witch?"
"I'm not a witch. I just know how to swim."
"wouldn't that be something a witch would do?"
"What?"
"Cover up the fact she is a witch because she can swim?"
"Can't I simply swim and not be a witch?"
"But why would you want to swim if you have no desire to practice witchery and consort with the devil?!"
"I already answered your question. I am not a witch."
"Yes...someone who is a witch would try to deceive us with that answer. There is absolutely no reason for any person to swim...repent...go on... tell us and free your soul!"
Oi Vey! Reading you list the "inquisition" questions of Song made me think of the "confrontation/ counselling" sessions in The Way.
Remember those "Surprise" sessions. You'd be invited for coffee and there would be your leadership there (as a witness) and you would be confronted. And once they decided what you were wrong about, there was no way to redeem yourself but to let them give you the royal anal probe! Then jump through enough man-made hoops and write letters of apology, plan strategic comeback goals, have six months of probabation, and THEN...MAYBE...you could come back!
Song...way off base. First, Greasespot is an open forum! Is this the new "Splinter" group, where you dare not speak unless you conform to the "experts" here on WayBrain? Must everyone here hold the same opinion about every topic here? Must thinkers straying from the popular ideology be "outted"? Haven't we all had enough of self-ordained experts?!
HCW, I think you give too much credit to Song as being he (or she) who pulls things out of people! If that line of questioning was okay, that I would say that's Way Brain! We all had it for DECADES!!! Intimidate and accuse...accuse and intimidate. All it takes is my suspicion of who you are...and shabam...time to play 100 questions.
Belle, I wonder why we allowed ourselves to be placed in the position of children with parents in the way tree, especially when, really, spiritually, we were all peers. We all took the same class, which was all the credentials any of us had, which was no credentials, really, and then the A dogs became the ldrs (parents) and the B dogs became the followers (children), or something like that. The question I ask myself is what did I get out of it and why did I allow these people this power over my life for that many years?
When they made us pay $85 for a Bible class (unheard of unless the class was for college credits), and then told us that we couldn't take notes in the class that we just paid for, that should have been a huge red flag for me, but I just ignored them and took notes anyway, but all the while feeling a little bit guilty and looking over my shoulder to make sure they weren't going to throw me out (sorry for the run on sentences). He he.
There is a well-known political couple in Washington D.C. who have been married for years, and are on opposite sides of the political fence. I can't remember their names, but they are occasionally featured in newspaper and magazine articles, or TV shows, because of their opposing views, yet harmonious union.
She belongs to and is active in one party, and her husband belongs to and is active in the other. Their marriage continues to turn heads (and make people scratch them) to this day. They are quite happy in their marriage, and quite visible and active in their respective political parites. Politics is an important part of each of their lives, reflecting not only their political/philosophical points of view, but also their livelihood.
You'd be hard pressed to find an active member of the democratic party who "condones" everything the republican party endorses, and vice versa.
But it doesn't keep this couple from loving each other and enjoying a long and productive marriage.
It doesn't surprise me that there are some people who cannot fathom such a union.
But that's their shortsight, and actually reveals a bit of intolerance.
That political couple is most likely James Carville, and Mary Matalin.
Carville is a rabid Bush hater, and I mean rabid, and Mary Matalin is a staunch conservative Republican. They both speak out passionately against and for the things they don't and do believe in. When I learned that they are married, I was stunned. I still cannot imagine how in the world they can get along as a married couple. I almost wondered if it was a publicity stunt at first. But, I guess it isn't.
To me, it seems as if things having to do with life it's ownself, things like political theories which will help and not hinder human Progress and human rights seems to be very sensitive areas, and would cause major friction in a marriage (especially if there are kids involved), if the couple did not see eye to eye on the issues.
For instance, if the public school system was very conservative, and the liberal husband didn't like his kids NOT learning multiculturalism, Tolerance, and other world religions besides Christianity, it would cause a serious conflict with that conservative wife, IMO.
Personally, I am very thankful that my wife and I are of the same mind when it comes to our belief in God and His Word. I think that it would be terribly difficult to relate to one another if we were not. If my wife were Jewish for instance, and did not believe in Jesus Christ as man's Redeemer, then I think we just would not be married. And mind you Catcup, I am not suggesting to you that YOU should live this way, I am just stating our own personal arrangement which works so well for us.
If I were to counsel any couple who were looking to be married, I would probably counsel them to either be of a like mind on such things as politics and religion, and if they could not be, then maybe they should not be married, and if they were to continue into marriage, they had better get that cleared up before they hooked up.
For instance, my lovely 20 year old daughter has a flaming love relationship with a California boy (also 20) who is half Portugese and half Costa Rican. He is all American mind you, California accent, colloquilisms, and all, but the thing we have mentioned to our daughter is that it is entirely possible that once they have children, this fine young man (we like him, he's a hard worker), just may want to revert to his family religion of Roman Catholicism, and raise her kids as little RC's. He doesn't practice the religion now, but once kids come along, this could change.
My wife and I have seen this amongst people we have known over the years, and if she is not willing to put up with that, she had better think it through first. The young man in question also really loves his Costa Rican mama, who is a very devout Catholic, and there would no doubt be lots of pressure from her to raise her grand kids as RC's. On the other hand, my wife and I who endeavor to be biblical Christians with no fondness for the rituals of the Roman Catholic religion, would not be in favor of having our grand kids raised as such. And so, it will ultimately be my daughters decision if she wants to live that way with him, but she already is not in favor of it (RC-ism) now, and so, we counseled her to make sure that she deals with that BEFORE she ties a knot with the young and handsome David Desuza...
Yes, we all used to counsel people when we were twi.
Please don't take this personally, Johnny, because I respect everyone's right to counsel their child as to what they think is right in selecting a marriage partner.
But, when ex-twi's with no other training than twi classes begin to "counsel" peers or other people that they know, that always sends up a huge red flag for me now (I'm not saying you're not a trained therapist or counselor because if you are, then obviously that comment does not apply to you, and either way, no offense was intended).
No problem WB, I am not a trained therapist. I was only speaking from a "common horse sense" point of view. I have been away from TWI for so long, I only use the things that I learned there that make common sense. To me, what I have shared with my daughter only makes sense, horse sense that is....
PS
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt on the "qualified therapist" issue. You are a Gentleman (or Woman) and a Scholar...
As far as counseling "others" outside of my immediate family, I counsel very little. I am only concerned at this point, of directing my sweet little offspring in the direction that I think I think is right. The rest of the world? Well, I love you all, but.....you figure it out! God will help you if you ask. Not my problem anymore, as it used to be....
I guess I'm gettin tired of the fight I spose, and if I can only direct my kids, I will be happy when I die...
People exiting the Way are not going be able to control what their spouse believes a few years down the road. They might find their own beliefs change over the years.
I think new exWay people should realize that happens, and that it does not have to be an automatic divorce, like it was in TWI. They don't have to draw the line in the sand, love is bigger than that.
TWI was actually very pro divorce, unlike some other religions. We were taught that love IS conditional, marriage is conditional, the household is conditional--heck, the priveledge of passing out the song books was conditional.
The Way taught us to hate and fear Other Beliefs, that people who held those beliefs led awful lives full of sin and consequence. They were demonized, villified.
I have not personally seen that since I left the Way, in the lives of people around me. I see all types of people leading good and decent lives, with times of sorrow and times of joy, and they hold all types of religious beliefs.
Those who show kindness, compassion, who give a damn about others seem to do all right, whether they are exway, RC, whatever. They tend to have friends and family that love them.
The people I see who truly have awful lives are those involved in drugs, alchohol, abusive situations(including TWI) or have mental illness or other mental health issues.
I've seen selfish, self involved people who don't seem peaceful or happy...but I can't point to their religion as the cause of that.Saw those folk in TWI, too.
Every TWI leadership,and many ex TWI leadership would counsel my husband to divorce me, wrangle custody of the kids from me, due soley to my beliefs. Yet we manage to be happy together. Our kids are not out of control misfits, we don't argue all day long...we were far more miserable back in our Way Daze when we were like minded.
HCW, I think you give too much credit to Song as being he (or she) who pulls things out of people!...and shabam...time to play 100 questions.
None taken.
Actually, I think you're right. I did give song way too much credit... gave Song some benefit of the doubt, undersevedly so.
I hope you guys understand, I never experienced much of this "inquisition stuff" during my time in TWI. Plus I'd forgotten or dismissed most of what I did experience, which was mostly just my last year in residence.
Not to take anything away from anyone else, I wouldn't have taken it nor put up with anyone doing it to anyone else. This is not to say it wasn't happening then, I'm just saying I wasn't around much of it. Most likely because for the last 10 years I was in, I was a HQ staffer, then WC, then a WC Grad staffer with an eentsy bitsy bit of clout. Since I didn't do any "inquisiting" I didn't see much of it. Whenever I did see something like it I usually nipped it in the bud.
Back in the day I saw this stuff more like "normal" ugly office politics than witchhunting. It got progressively worse after VPW died.
Using j-wannabe's outline, I'd handle it like this....
"How long have you been a witch?"
"What? Who are YOU to call ME a witch?"
"I'm the one who saw you swimming like witches do. You witch you, you must be a witch cause I saw you swimming."
"Ok. Let's you and ME go ask Bob Winegarner if HE thinks I'm a witch."
SNIP! (The oriental sound of a bud being nipped.)
Silence... from them.
"Oh. Who did you say you were? ... I'm guessing you don't know who I am either, I'M the guy who does all the graphics work for VPW (or the last cover for TW-Magazine or "Heart" or whatever other high visibility project I had going on.). VP doesn't think I'm a witch either."
SMACK!
"Hey, get yer lips off my butt! You don't know me that well."
Whenever that happened I just thought of the person as some gung-ho idiot. Not that I'm a name dropper, its just that I knew that was how "the inquisitors" thought. The political lay of the land was that certain names out-trumped others and I was connected via my job to the biggest names. Our dept. Way Tree went; dept, section, to Rosalie R., Bob Winegarner, Don W. then VP. I could leap-frog all the others because I did exclusive project work for VP that came from him to his secretary directly to me.
Sounds sad, but I think it sheds a little light on "the great purge" just prior to "the letter" from LCM. I take great pride in saying how I was the first person fired from HQ staff at the beginning of what we now know became the great purge, which led to the inquisitions.
As long as VP was alive, after I graduated from the WC, I was pretty much "inquisition-proof." They had tried to throw me out of the WC about a month before graduation, I went to Donnie W.; he gave JAL a direct order to allow me to stay. VPW, himself, paid the last piece of my Corps tuition when I would have been bounced out for lack of funds.
Lots of people on staff used the "my big name is bigger than your big name" thing as "body armour" against the corporate types. LCM had to get rid of anyone and everyone who would have stood against him. With all of us gone, the inquisitons grew to become SOP (standard operating procedure) all throughout the ministry.
I guess all that goes to say that I'm not as sensitive to the inquisition stuff as some others are. I see it now though. Reprehensible, what Song did was horrible.
No offense Song, but just what were you tryin' to prove? How is anyone ELSE's marriage you business in ANY way?
HC, that sounds more like when I was in, and it was the same time period since I wasn't around for the 2nd rung reign of terror. What I still object to is how our thinking got warped to allow people's opinions to bare so much weight in our personal lives.
JL, don't know if I deserve all that, but I appreciate your saying it anyway (hum, someone thinks I'm a scholar, I like that). You just hit on one of my pet peeves so thanks for realizing it wasn't about you and not taking it personally.
I don't advise anyone anymore either and I'm a LOT happier for it since I'm not a therapist either. AND my days of taking advice from ex-twi are over, too, and I'm a lot happier for it since they're not a therapist either. hehe.
oh, yeah, the marriage thing, I've changed my views about being the same on everything, as Bramble said. Diversity is a lot more interesting and it means you have to talk and express yourself if your views are different.
I applaud all of those who aren't the same, but are big enough and mature enough to work at loving someone enough to give them the space to be who they are and love them possibly even more for having an opinion and sticking to it.
I am reminded of a movie called "Fools Rush In". A woman, who was afraid to let her husband know she was still pregnant, and left him before he left her, is talking with her wise grandmother who tells her that she must "Surrender to love" if she wants to have it. You have to let down your fences.
Following Way mandates helped end my marriage.
I learned to NEVER let anyone have that much control of my life.
"What I still object to is how our thinking got warped to allow people's opinions to bare so much weight in our personal lives."
Waterbuffalo...How true! Some of us found out too late! For those of you who kept those marriages working the way they should, BRAVO!
For TWI's own belief system (the man is the head), the true "head" of the marriage was replaced by the limb and region coordinators.
justwannabeme, gosh, thanks for pointing that out. BINGO! Yes, that's exacty what they were doing. That's manipulation with a capital M!
And, if you liked being manipulated in twi, you can get the same thing in a spinoff group. We know a woman who goes to the local mog, jr. everytime her husband doesn't do things the way she wants him to and tells on him. Then mog, jr. calls him up and asks him to come over and then, miraculiously, after their little visit, the couple are "likeminded." I like to call it by its real name, MANIPULATED.
Yes, the "ldrs" (I use quotes because I doubt if they are leaders in God's eyes, my opinion)gossiped about the flock all of the time when I was in (I know because I used to do it) and I'm sure nothing has changed. I sure hope the individuals still caught up in that get out of that snare because they are hurting themselves worse than anyone because we have to give an account of the words we speak to the Lord someday.
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Bramble
My marriage was almost a ministry activity. I think the things that saved it from that was that my husband never had any desire to control me--it is not his nature at all. He's a team player kind of guy. And he likes me to be happy. The head of the household, which we believed in, was never any big deal to us--he didn't want to make decisions that caused me more work, or made me unhappy, so we talked everything out.
Another saving grace--hubby's parents were completely different people in temperament, politics and religious views, yet they were very happy together.
BTW, I saw plenty of TWI women control their marriages through the magic of tattling to leadership when their spouse did something 'off the word.' Hubby and I thought they were nuts! How could that possibly make a marriage better? Then thier spouse would look for things to tattle on them about--sheesh.
We had plenty of interference in our marriage and family life by leadership as it was--neither of us had any desire for more.
After we left TWI (about a year or so later) we realized we were changing in doctrinal beliefs, and not necessarily in the same directions. We decided beliefs would not be an issue to fight about in our marriage, we could each have our own, we could be free to change. That area of our marriage has changed very much, but living the TWI lifestyle wasn't something we loved or wanted to continue doing, anyway.
We let our kids explore other beliefs, go to churches etc. One church group we did stop two of them from attending, since the two were coming home with an ugly attitude of 'We're Christian and you're Not' stuff, causing trouble with their other sibling and with neighbor kids. That elitist attitude is not welcome in our home, it causes division.
I feel sorry for the people who couldn't be married to a Trinitarian or what ever...my way or the highway is an ugly way to live, knowing a change in beliefs would mean the end of your marriage. Wow.
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Catcup
George, it was Belle's WayBrain thread-- I just put a note at the beginning of this thread in explanation-- Her thread was getting derailed by someone with an agenda and an axe to grind with me, so I put it out here so her thread could get the proper attention it deserves.
Go figure, though, the guy is still over there with a full head of steam on a choo-choo detour.
Hamm--
I am so sorry if this thread brought up some bad memories. TWI is an @$$hole farm-- just grows 'em by the bushelfull.
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Ham
Hey, no problemo. Probably good to remember some stuff anyway.
At least it doesn't hurt, at least like it did.
A lot of the self-righteous @$$holes probably have a few suprises waiting for them in life though.
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Catcup
I'm sure they do, Hamm, I'm sure they do.
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shazdancer
Dear Catcup,
It's been 15 years, but here goes...
I did it from memory, then looked it up. I only missed the phrase "to have and to hold."
Hubby #1 decided he'd rather pledge himself to a bottle.
Hubby #2 decided he's rather remake me in his own TWI-ish, narcissistic image, and do nothing himself.
Abigail cracks me up, because my current "significant other" is a pretty unobservant Jew. I respect his views. Heck, Abi, if we swapped guys would we look more respectable? Well, too bad, I ain't a gonna!
One of the best lessons I learned from marriage #1 was that I didn't have to be attached at the hip to be a partner. Rock on, Catcup!
Regards,
Shaz
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excathedra
at some point you have to condone what your spouse is or is not into
well i mean if it's important
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waterbuffalo
good thread. thanks catcup for telling it like it is in your life. i'm impressed by what all of you have said.
just to chime in and add my two cents worth, my ex really, really, really, really didn't believe that I was entitled to an opinion. I mean, this was part of a belief system for him, hence, the ex status.
I feel very sad for women and men who live under that controling, religious spirit. It's also so uncomfortable to even be around a lot of ex way people who still cannot have peer relationships--they have to always be the ldr or the follower--no in-between (but that's another subject so I won't derail).
hubs and i treat each other with respect but we both have had controlling tendencies in the past. we've pretty much broken each other of that, but it still comes up at times and we work through it. we love each other very much and are very happy to be in each other's lives so it works out for us.
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johniam
I've said this before. Marriages are like snowflakes and fingerprints: no two alike. If a marriage has a problem so severe that a third party is required, the third party should probably be extended family or the police, not some branch leader or other self appointed counseller.
The last twig coordinator we had in TWI was appalled that my wife knew what size tires fit our car and not me. It's bad enough he even thought like that much less making a big deal out of it. So ****ing what if I don't happen to know that fact. What else am I supposed to memorize that I don't have to deal with every day? This is just one example of how absurd the concept of 'cookie cutter marriages' is.
Even married people need their space.
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Belle
Perzackly, John u are!
My ex thought that our marriage HAD to conform to TWI's cookie-cutter marriage and was constantly asking advice and whatnot from leaders. I was constantly undermined and in trouble for not wanting to conform or not doing a good enough job to conform to what he was told. It was a constant battle trying to balance being myself with the rules and expectations of TWI.
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justwannabeme
Everyone on this thread can think of marriages that ended in part due to allowing the meddleship of TWI leadership. In one state I lived spouses running to leadership with their personal, marital decisions or problems was encouraged. Getting that leadership feedback on whether you should buy a new car became a big deal! It made TWI the leaders of every marriage! How intrusive! Still boils my blood thinking about how they tried to micro-manage everyone's lives!
I myself had professional counseling after my marriage ended. The counselor said that the meddling (I told the counselor some of the TWI advice given)was the most destructive thing that could have happened in my marriage.
TWI tried to became the "head of the household" in the marriage. I knew folks who had their private sexual practices nosed into.
For TWI's own belief system (the man is the head), the true "head" of the marriage was replaced by the limb and region coordinators.
By going to the twig coordinator with your private marital business, you could bet it would go to the branch leader, then to the limb leader, then to the region coordinator, possibly the trunk leader if it was a big enough scoop. They all needed their "multitude of counselors", so by the time it was said and done, way too many people knew what was none of their business! Then mandates were handed down from the pontiffs!
Look at the incredibly wonderful marriage of LCM. Hmmm...where did that go! And why didn't Donna go with him? But that's another thread...
OUTRAGEOUS!
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justwannabeme
Catcup,
I went back and read the thread that lead to this one! I actually got a bit tired of reading it since I read your opening statement to this thread. It made the comments go on and on and on once you had given a statement. It was like watching a dog on the trail of a scent... only this was sprayed there by someone else.
I agreed that you were in an inquisition.
"How long have you been a witch?"
"I'm not a witch. I just know how to swim."
"wouldn't that be something a witch would do?"
"What?"
"Cover up the fact she is a witch because she can swim?"
"Can't I simply swim and not be a witch?"
"But why would you want to swim if you have no desire to practice witchery and consort with the devil?!"
"I already answered your question. I am not a witch."
"Yes...someone who is a witch would try to deceive us with that answer. There is absolutely no reason for any person to swim...repent...go on... tell us and free your soul!"
Oi Vey! Reading you list the "inquisition" questions of Song made me think of the "confrontation/ counselling" sessions in The Way.
Remember those "Surprise" sessions. You'd be invited for coffee and there would be your leadership there (as a witness) and you would be confronted. And once they decided what you were wrong about, there was no way to redeem yourself but to let them give you the royal anal probe! Then jump through enough man-made hoops and write letters of apology, plan strategic comeback goals, have six months of probabation, and THEN...MAYBE...you could come back!
Song...way off base. First, Greasespot is an open forum! Is this the new "Splinter" group, where you dare not speak unless you conform to the "experts" here on WayBrain? Must everyone here hold the same opinion about every topic here? Must thinkers straying from the popular ideology be "outted"? Haven't we all had enough of self-ordained experts?!
HCW, I think you give too much credit to Song as being he (or she) who pulls things out of people! If that line of questioning was okay, that I would say that's Way Brain! We all had it for DECADES!!! Intimidate and accuse...accuse and intimidate. All it takes is my suspicion of who you are...and shabam...time to play 100 questions.
Thanks for taking a stand CATCUP.
No offense to Song or HCW.
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waterbuffalo
Belle, I wonder why we allowed ourselves to be placed in the position of children with parents in the way tree, especially when, really, spiritually, we were all peers. We all took the same class, which was all the credentials any of us had, which was no credentials, really, and then the A dogs became the ldrs (parents) and the B dogs became the followers (children), or something like that. The question I ask myself is what did I get out of it and why did I allow these people this power over my life for that many years?
When they made us pay $85 for a Bible class (unheard of unless the class was for college credits), and then told us that we couldn't take notes in the class that we just paid for, that should have been a huge red flag for me, but I just ignored them and took notes anyway, but all the while feeling a little bit guilty and looking over my shoulder to make sure they weren't going to throw me out (sorry for the run on sentences). He he.
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Catcup
There is a well-known political couple in Washington D.C. who have been married for years, and are on opposite sides of the political fence. I can't remember their names, but they are occasionally featured in newspaper and magazine articles, or TV shows, because of their opposing views, yet harmonious union.
She belongs to and is active in one party, and her husband belongs to and is active in the other. Their marriage continues to turn heads (and make people scratch them) to this day. They are quite happy in their marriage, and quite visible and active in their respective political parites. Politics is an important part of each of their lives, reflecting not only their political/philosophical points of view, but also their livelihood.
You'd be hard pressed to find an active member of the democratic party who "condones" everything the republican party endorses, and vice versa.
But it doesn't keep this couple from loving each other and enjoying a long and productive marriage.
It doesn't surprise me that there are some people who cannot fathom such a union.
But that's their shortsight, and actually reveals a bit of intolerance.
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Steve!
That's Mary Matalin and James Carville.
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J0nny Ling0
That political couple is most likely James Carville, and Mary Matalin.
Carville is a rabid Bush hater, and I mean rabid, and Mary Matalin is a staunch conservative Republican. They both speak out passionately against and for the things they don't and do believe in. When I learned that they are married, I was stunned. I still cannot imagine how in the world they can get along as a married couple. I almost wondered if it was a publicity stunt at first. But, I guess it isn't.
To me, it seems as if things having to do with life it's ownself, things like political theories which will help and not hinder human Progress and human rights seems to be very sensitive areas, and would cause major friction in a marriage (especially if there are kids involved), if the couple did not see eye to eye on the issues.
For instance, if the public school system was very conservative, and the liberal husband didn't like his kids NOT learning multiculturalism, Tolerance, and other world religions besides Christianity, it would cause a serious conflict with that conservative wife, IMO.
Personally, I am very thankful that my wife and I are of the same mind when it comes to our belief in God and His Word. I think that it would be terribly difficult to relate to one another if we were not. If my wife were Jewish for instance, and did not believe in Jesus Christ as man's Redeemer, then I think we just would not be married. And mind you Catcup, I am not suggesting to you that YOU should live this way, I am just stating our own personal arrangement which works so well for us.
If I were to counsel any couple who were looking to be married, I would probably counsel them to either be of a like mind on such things as politics and religion, and if they could not be, then maybe they should not be married, and if they were to continue into marriage, they had better get that cleared up before they hooked up.
For instance, my lovely 20 year old daughter has a flaming love relationship with a California boy (also 20) who is half Portugese and half Costa Rican. He is all American mind you, California accent, colloquilisms, and all, but the thing we have mentioned to our daughter is that it is entirely possible that once they have children, this fine young man (we like him, he's a hard worker), just may want to revert to his family religion of Roman Catholicism, and raise her kids as little RC's. He doesn't practice the religion now, but once kids come along, this could change.
My wife and I have seen this amongst people we have known over the years, and if she is not willing to put up with that, she had better think it through first. The young man in question also really loves his Costa Rican mama, who is a very devout Catholic, and there would no doubt be lots of pressure from her to raise her grand kids as RC's. On the other hand, my wife and I who endeavor to be biblical Christians with no fondness for the rituals of the Roman Catholic religion, would not be in favor of having our grand kids raised as such. And so, it will ultimately be my daughters decision if she wants to live that way with him, but she already is not in favor of it (RC-ism) now, and so, we counseled her to make sure that she deals with that BEFORE she ties a knot with the young and handsome David Desuza...
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waterbuffalo
Yes, we all used to counsel people when we were twi.
Please don't take this personally, Johnny, because I respect everyone's right to counsel their child as to what they think is right in selecting a marriage partner.
But, when ex-twi's with no other training than twi classes begin to "counsel" peers or other people that they know, that always sends up a huge red flag for me now (I'm not saying you're not a trained therapist or counselor because if you are, then obviously that comment does not apply to you, and either way, no offense was intended).
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J0nny Ling0
No problem WB, I am not a trained therapist. I was only speaking from a "common horse sense" point of view. I have been away from TWI for so long, I only use the things that I learned there that make common sense. To me, what I have shared with my daughter only makes sense, horse sense that is....
PS
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt on the "qualified therapist" issue. You are a Gentleman (or Woman) and a Scholar...
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J0nny Ling0
PS:
As far as counseling "others" outside of my immediate family, I counsel very little. I am only concerned at this point, of directing my sweet little offspring in the direction that I think I think is right. The rest of the world? Well, I love you all, but.....you figure it out! God will help you if you ask. Not my problem anymore, as it used to be....
I guess I'm gettin tired of the fight I spose, and if I can only direct my kids, I will be happy when I die...
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Bramble
People exiting the Way are not going be able to control what their spouse believes a few years down the road. They might find their own beliefs change over the years.
I think new exWay people should realize that happens, and that it does not have to be an automatic divorce, like it was in TWI. They don't have to draw the line in the sand, love is bigger than that.
TWI was actually very pro divorce, unlike some other religions. We were taught that love IS conditional, marriage is conditional, the household is conditional--heck, the priveledge of passing out the song books was conditional.
The Way taught us to hate and fear Other Beliefs, that people who held those beliefs led awful lives full of sin and consequence. They were demonized, villified.
I have not personally seen that since I left the Way, in the lives of people around me. I see all types of people leading good and decent lives, with times of sorrow and times of joy, and they hold all types of religious beliefs.
Those who show kindness, compassion, who give a damn about others seem to do all right, whether they are exway, RC, whatever. They tend to have friends and family that love them.
The people I see who truly have awful lives are those involved in drugs, alchohol, abusive situations(including TWI) or have mental illness or other mental health issues.
I've seen selfish, self involved people who don't seem peaceful or happy...but I can't point to their religion as the cause of that.Saw those folk in TWI, too.
Every TWI leadership,and many ex TWI leadership would counsel my husband to divorce me, wrangle custody of the kids from me, due soley to my beliefs. Yet we manage to be happy together. Our kids are not out of control misfits, we don't argue all day long...we were far more miserable back in our Way Daze when we were like minded.
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HCW
None taken.
Actually, I think you're right. I did give song way too much credit... gave Song some benefit of the doubt, undersevedly so.
I hope you guys understand, I never experienced much of this "inquisition stuff" during my time in TWI. Plus I'd forgotten or dismissed most of what I did experience, which was mostly just my last year in residence.
Not to take anything away from anyone else, I wouldn't have taken it nor put up with anyone doing it to anyone else. This is not to say it wasn't happening then, I'm just saying I wasn't around much of it. Most likely because for the last 10 years I was in, I was a HQ staffer, then WC, then a WC Grad staffer with an eentsy bitsy bit of clout. Since I didn't do any "inquisiting" I didn't see much of it. Whenever I did see something like it I usually nipped it in the bud.
Back in the day I saw this stuff more like "normal" ugly office politics than witchhunting. It got progressively worse after VPW died.
Using j-wannabe's outline, I'd handle it like this....
"How long have you been a witch?"
"What? Who are YOU to call ME a witch?"
"I'm the one who saw you swimming like witches do. You witch you, you must be a witch cause I saw you swimming."
"Ok. Let's you and ME go ask Bob Winegarner if HE thinks I'm a witch."
SNIP! (The oriental sound of a bud being nipped.)
Silence... from them.
"Oh. Who did you say you were? ... I'm guessing you don't know who I am either, I'M the guy who does all the graphics work for VPW (or the last cover for TW-Magazine or "Heart" or whatever other high visibility project I had going on.). VP doesn't think I'm a witch either."
SMACK!
"Hey, get yer lips off my butt! You don't know me that well."
Whenever that happened I just thought of the person as some gung-ho idiot. Not that I'm a name dropper, its just that I knew that was how "the inquisitors" thought. The political lay of the land was that certain names out-trumped others and I was connected via my job to the biggest names. Our dept. Way Tree went; dept, section, to Rosalie R., Bob Winegarner, Don W. then VP. I could leap-frog all the others because I did exclusive project work for VP that came from him to his secretary directly to me.
Sounds sad, but I think it sheds a little light on "the great purge" just prior to "the letter" from LCM. I take great pride in saying how I was the first person fired from HQ staff at the beginning of what we now know became the great purge, which led to the inquisitions.
As long as VP was alive, after I graduated from the WC, I was pretty much "inquisition-proof." They had tried to throw me out of the WC about a month before graduation, I went to Donnie W.; he gave JAL a direct order to allow me to stay. VPW, himself, paid the last piece of my Corps tuition when I would have been bounced out for lack of funds.
Lots of people on staff used the "my big name is bigger than your big name" thing as "body armour" against the corporate types. LCM had to get rid of anyone and everyone who would have stood against him. With all of us gone, the inquisitons grew to become SOP (standard operating procedure) all throughout the ministry.
I guess all that goes to say that I'm not as sensitive to the inquisition stuff as some others are. I see it now though. Reprehensible, what Song did was horrible.
No offense Song, but just what were you tryin' to prove? How is anyone ELSE's marriage you business in ANY way?
What IS a conventional marriage anyway?
Is that like being a "normal" human being?
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waterbuffalo
HC, that sounds more like when I was in, and it was the same time period since I wasn't around for the 2nd rung reign of terror. What I still object to is how our thinking got warped to allow people's opinions to bare so much weight in our personal lives.
JL, don't know if I deserve all that, but I appreciate your saying it anyway (hum, someone thinks I'm a scholar, I like that). You just hit on one of my pet peeves so thanks for realizing it wasn't about you and not taking it personally.
I don't advise anyone anymore either and I'm a LOT happier for it since I'm not a therapist either. AND my days of taking advice from ex-twi are over, too, and I'm a lot happier for it since they're not a therapist either. hehe.
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waterbuffalo
oh, yeah, the marriage thing, I've changed my views about being the same on everything, as Bramble said. Diversity is a lot more interesting and it means you have to talk and express yourself if your views are different.
I applaud all of those who aren't the same, but are big enough and mature enough to work at loving someone enough to give them the space to be who they are and love them possibly even more for having an opinion and sticking to it.
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justwannabeme
CATCUP, Waterbuffalo, et al:
I am reminded of a movie called "Fools Rush In". A woman, who was afraid to let her husband know she was still pregnant, and left him before he left her, is talking with her wise grandmother who tells her that she must "Surrender to love" if she wants to have it. You have to let down your fences.
Following Way mandates helped end my marriage.
I learned to NEVER let anyone have that much control of my life.
"What I still object to is how our thinking got warped to allow people's opinions to bare so much weight in our personal lives."
Waterbuffalo...How true! Some of us found out too late! For those of you who kept those marriages working the way they should, BRAVO!
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waterbuffalo
justwannabeme, gosh, thanks for pointing that out. BINGO! Yes, that's exacty what they were doing. That's manipulation with a capital M!
And, if you liked being manipulated in twi, you can get the same thing in a spinoff group. We know a woman who goes to the local mog, jr. everytime her husband doesn't do things the way she wants him to and tells on him. Then mog, jr. calls him up and asks him to come over and then, miraculiously, after their little visit, the couple are "likeminded." I like to call it by its real name, MANIPULATED.
Yes, the "ldrs" (I use quotes because I doubt if they are leaders in God's eyes, my opinion)gossiped about the flock all of the time when I was in (I know because I used to do it) and I'm sure nothing has changed. I sure hope the individuals still caught up in that get out of that snare because they are hurting themselves worse than anyone because we have to give an account of the words we speak to the Lord someday.
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