WTH, you and WW may disagree with me for widely different reasons, but I stand by my earlier post (on 9/12) that the numbers dont matter a lot and don't change anything, given that those numbers, even by the lowest figure you mention, are very substantial. I'll let the two of you bounce those numbers around if you so desire. What we do have is a stated desire and attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Of course if you believe, as Hitler did, that they were ( are) a parasitic disease that needs to be exterminated, and not real people, then extermination of them would be a good thiing. I assume that is not your belief, but let us assume momentarily that the lowest figure you give in your post is correct...356 thousand jews gassed...is that a horrible thing to you or not? Or are you going to work on getting even that figure lower until it gets to zero?
I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot, especially when historians with credible reputations themselves can't agree on the exact "number." Heck I say, make up a number yourself - you might end up and be a whole lot closer to the truth then they are. Where I happen to disagree with you though is that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Even if there were such an attempt, why should we be involved?
As far as my personal belief about the Jews that is irrelevant. I don't consider any human being a "parasitic disease that needs to be exterminated", whether or not anyone else considers one to be Jewish or a homo. TWI did teach that "homo" was the lowest one could go on the "totem pole of humanity." However I don't recall them ever saying or teaching that about the Jews, or that they needed to be exterminated. TWI didn't even consider the homo's a "parasitic disease that needed to be exterminated." TWI just "smoked someone out" if one's conscious happened to be seared with a hot iron in that category of their life. Afterall, one chooses their sexual preference, but one's nationality, they have no say in that. But if you talked to a homo who recently got smoked out, they will probably emotionalize that experience and would tend to say and also convince others that TWI had indeed "exterminated" them. That is basic human nature and the result of two different group dynamics clashing against one another. I also believe that is largely what has been happening and what is being reported among many of the Jewish "eyewitnessess" of the Holocaust. I don't have any sources to back that all up - that is just IMHO.
It is also my humble opinion the Jews deserve no special treatment or favors from us, but the government of the USA certainly showers it on them. Our world is increasingly becoming bi-polar, with the USA and Israel on one side and the rest of the world on the other. I don't believe 9/11 was just a "freak accident" that was never provoked. If you recall, President George W. Bush said on national television that "America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world." The next day he said that "freedom and democracy are under attack," and that the perpetrators had struck against "all freedom-loving people everywhere in the world." But if "democracy" and "freedom-loving people" are the targets, why isn't anyone attacking Switzerland, Japan or Norway? Bush's claims are just as untrue as President Wilson's World War I declaration that the United States was fighting to "make the world safe for democracy," and President Roosevelt's World War II assurances that the U.S. was fighting for "freedom" and "democracy."
According to a well-placed Bush administration source, "everyone in town" is now participating in a broad discussion about the costs and benefits of military action against Iran, with the likely timeframe for any such course of action being over the next eight to 10 months, after the presidential primaries have probably been decided, but well before the November 2008 elections. If you don't think our world is becoming more bi-polar - let me ask you this one simple question. How many alies does the US currently have fighting along with us and alongside us in Iraq? This war, if anything, has given American's a far less sense of peace, freedom and democracy than ever before.
All the while, praying that we were in old testament times.. because there were "those among us who would willingly execute you"..
Their words, not mine..
What gives such an appeal to even supposedly educated people to deny the holocaust, and even newer events.. Milosevic.. others.. "well, we were just cleaning up the race-bank.."
Some just adore the "good" professor.. skin heads just love the guy.. along with others who need some kind of drama in life to justify their mundane existence..
I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot, especially when historians with credible reputations themselves can't agree on the exact "number." Heck I say, make up a number yourself - you might end up and be a whole lot closer to the truth then they are. Where I happen to disagree with you though is that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Even if there were such an attempt, why should we be involved?
I didn't say that there is a current attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. I didn't say there wasn't. However, your use of the word current would imply that you are acknowledging the attempt before and during during World War II known as the holocaust...and that the lowest numbers cited in your previous post acknowledge that this attempt exterminated at least hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives. And, as you do not consider the Jewish people (or anyone) a parasitic didease that need to be exterminated, I assume you would acknowledge the hate involved in this attempt, as has been very well documented in writings by Hitler and others.
You are welcome to confirm or deny that my assumptions are correct. I am stating it this way because you appear to have objections to the current policy of the United States regarding Israel and what you consider current special treatment of Jews. I will acknowledge that agreeing that there was a hateful attempt in the past to exterminate these people does not require you to support current policy. You are of course fully entitled to argue the meaning (or lack thereof) of this historical event.
I think people tend to get lost in the numbers. It's easy to look on a piece of paper.. "well, it wasn't ten or eleven, or quite six million.."
What a lot of people can't grasp is.. the enormity of the holocaust is not unlike if a person packed up every man, woman, and child in Detroit, or L.A., and trained and bussed them off to certain death.
Might take a little time, but if somebody was motivated enough, and had sufficient cooperation, it could actually be done.
Still done even in modern times.. look at Haiti, Kosovo..
I perused that 'authoritative' site that WTH listed, and one thing I've learned about just about any apologist/slanted/issue based site, is by looking at its links page and the sources/fellow sites that it refers to. And my, oh my, what a not-so-objective list it is:
and a whole lot of German sounding sites, a lot of sites that have connections to neo-Nazis in Germany. <_<
What WTH keeps overlooking is many (if not all) the not-so-objective resources that are on all these 'revisionist' sites continuously have either a strong support for the Hitler's Nazi regime and/or this rabid distrust/contempt for Isreal (and I'm not talking about their poor excuse of Isreal's treatment of the Palestinians). Thus it seriously undermines the so-called 'objectivity' of their 'research'.
By the way, the neo-nazi Holocaust revisionism started long before the current Isreal-Palestinian situation, and basically has nothing to do with it.
By the way, the neo-nazi Holocaust revisionism started long before the current Isreal-Palestinian situation, and basically has nothing to do with it.
That is the only thing you said I agree with, since much of the Holocaust revisionism has been conducted by Jewish scholars. That sort of makes your above argument for objectivity a moot issue IMO.
Incorrect. It was the Nazi regime supporters/apologists who cooked up the revisionist theory, along with a few deluded/mistaken Jewish 'scholars'. A revisionist theory that flies in the face of a MASSIVE amount of the preponderance of evidence that contradict it.
Why do you insist on hitching your reputation to a dead-end movement that identifies with a psychotic, loser philosophy? Is this part of the 'principles of God's Word' that you learned from VPW? Part of 'The Truth' that that is the basis of Western Civilization?
Some people have a nice "reality".. a world where one group of people can't be doggone evil enough to slaughter another group based only on their genetic or ethnic heritage..
too bad the facts indicate otherwise. Practically decade after decade..
Incorrect. It was the Nazi regime supporters/apologists who cooked up the revisionist theory, along with a few deluded/mistaken Jewish 'scholars'. A revisionist theory that flies in the face of a MASSIVE amount of the preponderance of evidence that contradict it.
Why do you insist on hitching your reputation to a dead-end movement that identifies with a psychotic, loser philosophy? Is this part of the 'principles of God's Word' that you learned from VPW? Part of 'The Truth' that that is the basis of Western Civilization?
Spare me. <_<
What other remak can one expect from someone who is parrotting the organized Jewish-Zionist corruption of our political system.
I didn't say that there is a current attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. I didn't say there wasn't. However, your use of the word current would imply that you are acknowledging the attempt before and during during World War II known as the holocaust...and that the lowest numbers cited in your previous post acknowledge that this attempt exterminated at least hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives. And, as you do not consider the Jewish people (or anyone) a parasitic didease that need to be exterminated, I assume you would acknowledge the hate involved in this attempt, as has been very well documented in writings by Hitler and others.
You are welcome to confirm or deny that my assumptions are correct. I am stating it this way because you appear to have objections to the current policy of the United States regarding Israel and what you consider current special treatment of Jews. I will acknowledge that agreeing that there was a hateful attempt in the past to exterminate these people does not require you to support current policy. You are of course fully entitled to argue the meaning (or lack thereof) of this historical event.
I think it you have well established your disagreement with our official government policies regarding israel. I simply want to establish, in line with the title of this thread, whether or not you agree that the holocaust happened, even if only at your lowest numbers I discuss above, and whether ot not you think it was wrong. You are of course entitled to your opinion on its relevance or lack thereof to what you think out current policy should be.
Did the "Holocaust" of the European Jews really occur? Is it true that during the Second World War, the Germans ordered, planned and carried out a policy of physical destruction of the European Jews? More specifically, did they design, build and use execution gas chambers for that purpose? Did they cause the deaths of millions of Jews in that manner?
To these questions, the majority of writers say yes; they believe in the "Holocaust" of the European Jews. We shall call these writers "exterminationists" because they defend the thesis of the physical extermination of the Jews. To these same questions, other writers say no; these writers are called "revisionists" but it goes without saying that the revisionists do not dispute the fact that, during a world conflict which caused 40 to 50 million deaths, many Jews (the approximate number remains to be determined) died.
Who is right? The exterminationists or the revisionists? ...
The occasion gave me the opportunity to emphasize again what I call "one of the 20th century's great paradoxes": that millions of people, stupefied by incessant media propaganda, believe in the Nazi gas chambers without ever having seen one, without having the slightest idea of what this allegedly fantastic weapon was, without any ability to describe its shape and operation. The Nazi gas chamber is alleged to have physically existed; yet no one can provide us with a representation of it! This gas chamber is immaterial and magical. Nobody, and above all, not J.C. Pressac in his work with the misleading title, has been able in a half-century to provide us with a photograph, a blueprint or a model. ....
I have had the following idea: when one deals with a vast historical problem like that of the reality or the legend of the Holocaust, one must strive to get to the core of the problem. In this case the central problem is Auschwitz and the core of that problem is a space of 275 square metres: the 65 square metres of the "gas chamber" of crematorium I at Auschwitz and, at Birkenau, the 210 square metres of the "gas chamber" of crematorium II. In 1988, my idea remained the same: let us have expert studies of those 275 square metres and we will have an answer to the vast problem of the Holocaust! ...
Thus, the challenge I have made to the adepts of the "Holocaust" religion for decades remains the same: "I will be prepared to believe in the Nazi gas chamber, the central pillar of the 'Holocaust' religion, on the day you can describe 'a single one of those gas chambers' to me."
Sometimes I add: "But you are unable to do so. Those chemical slaughterhouses where, according to you, one could have entered with impunity to retrieve millions of bodies out of an ocean of hydrocyanic acid were a physical and chemical impossibility. One cannot describe or draw the alleged homicidal gas chamber of Auschwitz as one cannot describe or draw a square circle or a circular square."(From the Foreward: Did Six Million Really Die?, Dr. Robert Faurisson)
----------------------------------
Here's a better idea. Why don't you ask GarthP2000 and the other "exterminationists" to describe a "Nazi gas chamber" to you? Truthfully speaking, I highly doubt that he, like many of them could or would be able to. Just like the facets of a false religion it is being shoved down people's throats while being told to accept it by "blind faith." The Holocaust is entrenched dogma, before which the people genuflect.
Why don't you just say what you REALLY think? Here let me help you:
"So
a few
people lost their lives. I couldn't care less. They probably deserved it anyway and so I wish those annoying jerks would just shut up and quit talking about it like it was some atrocity or something.... "
The Holocausters accuse Revisionists of being hate-filled people who are promoting a doctrine of hatred. But Revisionism is a scholarly process, not a doctrine or an ideology. If the Holocaust promoters really want to expose hatred, they should take a second look at their own doctrines, and a long look at themselves in a mirror.
The Holocausters often deceptively claim that Revisionist scholarship has been proven false during a trial. The fact is, Revisionist arguments have never been evaluated or judged by the courts.
Those who take up the Revisionist cause represent a wide spectrum of political and philosophical positions. They are certainly not the scoundrels, liars and demons the Holocaust Lobby tries to make them out to be.
If you call me a bank robber in print and I am not a bank robber, that is called libel. If you call me a child molester and I am not a child molester, that is called libel also. If you call me in electronic print a ". . . prolific publisher of hate literature." You have just libeled me.
The fact is, there are no demons in the real world. People are at their worst when they begin to see their opponents as an embodiment of evil, and then begin to demonize them. You can do anything you want to a demon.
No subject enrages the "Thought Police" more than Holocaust Revisionism. We debate every other great historical issue as a matter of course, but influential pressure groups with private agendas have made the Holocaust story an exception.
Those who promote the Holocaust story complain that "the whole world" was indifferent to the genocide which allegedly was occurring in German-occupied Europe. When asked why this was the case the promoters usually respond by saying that it was due to some great moral flaw in the nature of Western man. At other times they make the absurd claim that people did not realize the enormity of what was happening.
It is true that the world responded with indifference.
How else should people have responded to that which they did not believe, and which for them was a non-event?
Why don't you just say what you REALLY think? Here let me help you:
"So
a few
people lost their lives. I couldn't care less. They probably deserved it anyway and so I wish those annoying jerks would just shut up and quit talking about it like it was some atrocity or something.... "
Good to see you, Mr. Strange! I've missed your witty words of wisdom around here.
Did the "Holocaust" of the European Jews really occur? Is it true that during the Second World War, the Germans ordered, planned and carried out a policy of physical destruction of the European Jews? More specifically, did they design, build and use execution gas chambers for that purpose? Did they cause the deaths of millions of Jews in that manner?
That is one way to avoid answering the question. But here we go again with the emphasis on numbers; again we have to be in the millions for the event to be horrible I guess. Your "millions" is repeated twice more later in your post. For someone who said, "I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot", you seem to attach a lot of importance to "millions". But by putting so much evidence of the numbers, you appear to be admitting that hundreds of thousands of Jews at least (Your lowest number was in that range in your earlier post) were gassed by Hitler's regime. And the motivation was rather plain, according to Hitler's writings about the Jewish people, two of which (out of many, very well documented I will add) I included earlier. I figure that if you were advocating that it didn't happen at all, you wouldn't have quoted all those numbers.
What is also telling is your apparent attempt to camouflage the deaths of Jews gassed within all the deaths that resulted from World War II. Again, it seems to be an admission that these deliberate deaths occured, and that you are only attempting to decrease their significance.
That is one way to avoid answering the question. But here we go again with the emphasis on numbers; again we have to be in the millions for the event to be horrible I guess. Your "millions" is repeated twice more later in your post. For someone who said, "I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot", you seem to attach a lot of importance to "millions". But by putting so much evidence of the numbers, you appear to be admitting that hundreds of thousands of Jews at least (Your lowest number was in that range in your earlier post) were gassed by Hitler's regime. And the motivation was rather plain, according to Hitler's writings about the Jewish people, two of which (out of many, very well documented I will add) I included earlier. I figure that if you were advocating that it didn't happen at all, you wouldn't have quoted all those numbers.
First off, let's make some things clear about some of the things you claim are "well documented":
The Revisionist Claim: Not a single document has been found with Hitler's signature ordering the extermination of the Jews."
It is a heartening development to have the Holocaust Promotion Lobby in general finally admit that there was, in fact, NO Führer order ever to exterminate the Jews.
Revisionists credit themselves for having secured this admission.
That there existed such an order had been a much-repeated claim for decades, and many people still believe there was. Dr. Raul Hilberg - known as the "Pope of the Holocaust" for having authored "The Destruction of the European Jews," (often referred to as "The Holocaust Bible") a man who is widely regarded as the "#1 Expert" on Holocaust matters, has managed to bring his perception of the Holocaust a little more in accord with the facts, thanks to Revisionist influence, to wit:
In his 1961 edition of his book, "The Destruction of the European Jews," Dr. Hilberg wrote that there were two Hitler orders. (Hilberg, Raul, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangel, Chicago, page 177)
At the 1985 trial of Ernst Zündel, Hilberg continued to insist that the orders existed, stating that he would not be correcting what he wrote in 1961 in his new, forthcoming edition. (Did Six Million Really Die? Report of the Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zündel - 1988, Edited by Barbara Kulaszka, pp 851-852)
Shortly after his testimony, Hilberg then proceeded to delete all references to a Hitler Order in the body of his new edition, published in 1985. (Hilberg, Raul, "The Destruction of the European Jews," Holmes & Meyer, New York, 1985, p 402) in Did Six Million Really Die? Report of the Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zündel - 1988, Edited by Barbara Kulaszka, pp 112-113)
In this new edition, the reference to a "Hitler Order" is buried in a footnote that now reads as follows: "Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus, mind-reading by a far-flung bureaucracy." (Did Six Million Really Die? Report of the Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zündel - 1988, Edited by Barbara Kulaszka, pp 112-113)
So now it is agreed by friend and foe alike (except by those who still need to catch up) there was no Führer order.
What is also telling is your apparent attempt to camouflage the deaths of Jews gassed within all the deaths that resulted from World War II. Again, it seems to be an admission that these deliberate deaths occured, and that you are only attempting to decrease their significance.
Frst, let's discuss the "gas" those 6 million Jews were killed with:
The Revisionist Claim: "Zyklon B was a fumigant. It wasn't a practical agent for mass murder."
A big deal is made by the Holocaust Promotion Lobby about all the many invoices they have found for a delousing compound. So what? Lice which carried deadly diseases like typhus were a horrific sanitation problem during WW II for friend and enemy alike. As a matter of fact, refugees and soldiers alike were routinely and periodically deloused. (And, by the way, their hair was shorn as well to make delousing easier).
The German Army, the SS, German civilian companies, hospitals, factories, ships, what have you - all used this Zyklon B compound during the war to get rid of vermin. All of them were issued invoices. The German Wehrmacht had stacks and stacks of them. Does that mean the German Army killed all of its own soldiers? Nonsense!
Zyklon B was a very effective means for killing vermin used for many armies, including the US Army, well into the 1970s. Even more to the point, and even more telling, is the fact that there are lots of invoices for Zyklon B for concentration camps like Oranienburg and Theresienstadt, - where no one claims people were gassed.
All these "incriminating" invoices, whether for the Army or the civilian concentration camps, prove only one thing: The Germans wanted to save lives - even their enemies' lives - by killing lice and other vermin.
I suppose one could say the Germans were indeed truly guilty of killing 6 million "lice and vermin" - and those who insist on pushing the holocaust myth can only say to that, "The Germans considered the Jews "lice and vermin!"
So no, I am not avoiding answering your question(s). YOU just have to catch up and get your facts straight before you (and others) are willing to accept the answer.
Ummmmm - and what about the oven the Jews were put in? What about the "medical experiments"? What about the firing squads?
I'm interested in how much spin you can give here? I'll bet you can give Linda Blair a run for her money.
The only question you missed was: What about the "soap" the Germans "manufactured" from the bodies of their victims? Macabre "Jewish soap" jokes became popular in the ghettos and camps, and many non-Jews on the outside came to believe the story. When trains loaded with Jewish deportees stopped temporarily at rail stations, Poles reportedly would gleefully shout at them: "Jews to soap!" Even British prisoners of war interned at Auschwitz in 1944 testified later about the wartime rumors that corpses of gassing victims were being turned into soap there.
Numerous Jews who lived in German ghettos and camps during the war helped keep the soap story alive many years later. The "human soap" story demonstrates anew the tremendous impact that a wartime rumor, no matter how fantastic, can have once it has taken hold, particularly when it is disseminated as a propaganda lie by influential individuals and powerful organizations. That so many intelligent and otherwise thoughtful people could ever have seriously believed that the Germans distributed bars of soap brazenly labeled with letters indicating that they were manufactured from Jewish corpses shows how readily even the most absurd Holocaust fables can be -- and are -- accepted as fact.
So to answer most of your "what about" questions, most of those stories were "manufactured" and have also been proven to have turned out to be a bunch of "soap stories." Those who advocate criminal persecution of "Holocaust deniers" are still living in the world of 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are now discredited.
It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal), are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant nearly to death. (Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C. Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p. 117.) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated there, and that a further half million died of disease. ("How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf Hoess," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403)
Today no reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to try to save himself and his family. But for purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately seek to keep any substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to Europe's Jews during World War II.
The issue can only be settled as all great historical controversies have been resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers and classrooms. I doubt anything like that though will ever happen here at GSC.
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Catcup
Absolutely.
Catcup
This was exactly my experience. I sat in the same meetings and heard Martindale make the same exclamation: That the Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apache Indians. And yes, the Holocaust wa
Catcup
A slippery slope indeed, Tref.
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Abigail
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Ham
Yep.. like proving the Washington monument never existed.. chip away, one brick at a time..
demand forensic examination.. one brick at a time..
maybe the "professor" could send his lackey to extract a few bricks with hammer and chisel..
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What The Hey
I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot, especially when historians with credible reputations themselves can't agree on the exact "number." Heck I say, make up a number yourself - you might end up and be a whole lot closer to the truth then they are. Where I happen to disagree with you though is that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Even if there were such an attempt, why should we be involved?
As far as my personal belief about the Jews that is irrelevant. I don't consider any human being a "parasitic disease that needs to be exterminated", whether or not anyone else considers one to be Jewish or a homo. TWI did teach that "homo" was the lowest one could go on the "totem pole of humanity." However I don't recall them ever saying or teaching that about the Jews, or that they needed to be exterminated. TWI didn't even consider the homo's a "parasitic disease that needed to be exterminated." TWI just "smoked someone out" if one's conscious happened to be seared with a hot iron in that category of their life. Afterall, one chooses their sexual preference, but one's nationality, they have no say in that. But if you talked to a homo who recently got smoked out, they will probably emotionalize that experience and would tend to say and also convince others that TWI had indeed "exterminated" them. That is basic human nature and the result of two different group dynamics clashing against one another. I also believe that is largely what has been happening and what is being reported among many of the Jewish "eyewitnessess" of the Holocaust. I don't have any sources to back that all up - that is just IMHO.
It is also my humble opinion the Jews deserve no special treatment or favors from us, but the government of the USA certainly showers it on them. Our world is increasingly becoming bi-polar, with the USA and Israel on one side and the rest of the world on the other. I don't believe 9/11 was just a "freak accident" that was never provoked. If you recall, President George W. Bush said on national television that "America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world." The next day he said that "freedom and democracy are under attack," and that the perpetrators had struck against "all freedom-loving people everywhere in the world." But if "democracy" and "freedom-loving people" are the targets, why isn't anyone attacking Switzerland, Japan or Norway? Bush's claims are just as untrue as President Wilson's World War I declaration that the United States was fighting to "make the world safe for democracy," and President Roosevelt's World War II assurances that the U.S. was fighting for "freedom" and "democracy."
According to a well-placed Bush administration source, "everyone in town" is now participating in a broad discussion about the costs and benefits of military action against Iran, with the likely timeframe for any such course of action being over the next eight to 10 months, after the presidential primaries have probably been decided, but well before the November 2008 elections. If you don't think our world is becoming more bi-polar - let me ask you this one simple question. How many alies does the US currently have fighting along with us and alongside us in Iraq? This war, if anything, has given American's a far less sense of peace, freedom and democracy than ever before.
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Ham
All the while, praying that we were in old testament times.. because there were "those among us who would willingly execute you"..
Their words, not mine..
What gives such an appeal to even supposedly educated people to deny the holocaust, and even newer events.. Milosevic.. others.. "well, we were just cleaning up the race-bank.."
Some just adore the "good" professor.. skin heads just love the guy.. along with others who need some kind of drama in life to justify their mundane existence..
maybe it's more "fun" to rule in hell..
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Lifted Up
I didn't say that there is a current attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. I didn't say there wasn't. However, your use of the word current would imply that you are acknowledging the attempt before and during during World War II known as the holocaust...and that the lowest numbers cited in your previous post acknowledge that this attempt exterminated at least hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives. And, as you do not consider the Jewish people (or anyone) a parasitic didease that need to be exterminated, I assume you would acknowledge the hate involved in this attempt, as has been very well documented in writings by Hitler and others.
You are welcome to confirm or deny that my assumptions are correct. I am stating it this way because you appear to have objections to the current policy of the United States regarding Israel and what you consider current special treatment of Jews. I will acknowledge that agreeing that there was a hateful attempt in the past to exterminate these people does not require you to support current policy. You are of course fully entitled to argue the meaning (or lack thereof) of this historical event.
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Ham
I think people tend to get lost in the numbers. It's easy to look on a piece of paper.. "well, it wasn't ten or eleven, or quite six million.."
What a lot of people can't grasp is.. the enormity of the holocaust is not unlike if a person packed up every man, woman, and child in Detroit, or L.A., and trained and bussed them off to certain death.
Might take a little time, but if somebody was motivated enough, and had sufficient cooperation, it could actually be done.
Still done even in modern times.. look at Haiti, Kosovo..
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GarthP2000
I perused that 'authoritative' site that WTH listed, and one thing I've learned about just about any apologist/slanted/issue based site, is by looking at its links page and the sources/fellow sites that it refers to. And my, oh my, what a not-so-objective list it is:
VHO - Links page
Look particularly for these sites:
Rudolph Hess
JewWatch
and a whole lot of German sounding sites, a lot of sites that have connections to neo-Nazis in Germany. <_<
What WTH keeps overlooking is many (if not all) the not-so-objective resources that are on all these 'revisionist' sites continuously have either a strong support for the Hitler's Nazi regime and/or this rabid distrust/contempt for Isreal (and I'm not talking about their poor excuse of Isreal's treatment of the Palestinians). Thus it seriously undermines the so-called 'objectivity' of their 'research'.
By the way, the neo-nazi Holocaust revisionism started long before the current Isreal-Palestinian situation, and basically has nothing to do with it.
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What The Hey
That is the only thing you said I agree with, since much of the Holocaust revisionism has been conducted by Jewish scholars. That sort of makes your above argument for objectivity a moot issue IMO.
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GarthP2000
Incorrect. It was the Nazi regime supporters/apologists who cooked up the revisionist theory, along with a few deluded/mistaken Jewish 'scholars'. A revisionist theory that flies in the face of a MASSIVE amount of the preponderance of evidence that contradict it.
Why do you insist on hitching your reputation to a dead-end movement that identifies with a psychotic, loser philosophy? Is this part of the 'principles of God's Word' that you learned from VPW? Part of 'The Truth' that that is the basis of Western Civilization?
Spare me. <_<
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Ham
Some people have a nice "reality".. a world where one group of people can't be doggone evil enough to slaughter another group based only on their genetic or ethnic heritage..
too bad the facts indicate otherwise. Practically decade after decade..
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What The Hey
What other remak can one expect from someone who is parrotting the organized Jewish-Zionist corruption of our political system.
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Lifted Up
I think it you have well established your disagreement with our official government policies regarding israel. I simply want to establish, in line with the title of this thread, whether or not you agree that the holocaust happened, even if only at your lowest numbers I discuss above, and whether ot not you think it was wrong. You are of course entitled to your opinion on its relevance or lack thereof to what you think out current policy should be.
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What The Hey
Did the "Holocaust" of the European Jews really occur? Is it true that during the Second World War, the Germans ordered, planned and carried out a policy of physical destruction of the European Jews? More specifically, did they design, build and use execution gas chambers for that purpose? Did they cause the deaths of millions of Jews in that manner?
To these questions, the majority of writers say yes; they believe in the "Holocaust" of the European Jews. We shall call these writers "exterminationists" because they defend the thesis of the physical extermination of the Jews. To these same questions, other writers say no; these writers are called "revisionists" but it goes without saying that the revisionists do not dispute the fact that, during a world conflict which caused 40 to 50 million deaths, many Jews (the approximate number remains to be determined) died.
Who is right? The exterminationists or the revisionists? ...
The occasion gave me the opportunity to emphasize again what I call "one of the 20th century's great paradoxes": that millions of people, stupefied by incessant media propaganda, believe in the Nazi gas chambers without ever having seen one, without having the slightest idea of what this allegedly fantastic weapon was, without any ability to describe its shape and operation. The Nazi gas chamber is alleged to have physically existed; yet no one can provide us with a representation of it! This gas chamber is immaterial and magical. Nobody, and above all, not J.C. Pressac in his work with the misleading title, has been able in a half-century to provide us with a photograph, a blueprint or a model. ....
I have had the following idea: when one deals with a vast historical problem like that of the reality or the legend of the Holocaust, one must strive to get to the core of the problem. In this case the central problem is Auschwitz and the core of that problem is a space of 275 square metres: the 65 square metres of the "gas chamber" of crematorium I at Auschwitz and, at Birkenau, the 210 square metres of the "gas chamber" of crematorium II. In 1988, my idea remained the same: let us have expert studies of those 275 square metres and we will have an answer to the vast problem of the Holocaust! ...
Thus, the challenge I have made to the adepts of the "Holocaust" religion for decades remains the same: "I will be prepared to believe in the Nazi gas chamber, the central pillar of the 'Holocaust' religion, on the day you can describe 'a single one of those gas chambers' to me."
Sometimes I add: "But you are unable to do so. Those chemical slaughterhouses where, according to you, one could have entered with impunity to retrieve millions of bodies out of an ocean of hydrocyanic acid were a physical and chemical impossibility. One cannot describe or draw the alleged homicidal gas chamber of Auschwitz as one cannot describe or draw a square circle or a circular square."(From the Foreward: Did Six Million Really Die?, Dr. Robert Faurisson)
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Here's a better idea. Why don't you ask GarthP2000 and the other "exterminationists" to describe a "Nazi gas chamber" to you? Truthfully speaking, I highly doubt that he, like many of them could or would be able to. Just like the facets of a false religion it is being shoved down people's throats while being told to accept it by "blind faith." The Holocaust is entrenched dogma, before which the people genuflect.
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Belle
WTF, WTH?
Geeze, man - you just don't get it, do you??
Why don't you just say what you REALLY think? Here let me help you:
Yellow - Jew
Brown - Gypsy
Violet - Jehovah's Witness
Pink - Homosexual
Green - Habitual criminal
Red - Political prisoner
Black - Asocial
Blue - Emigrant
Y'all are wasting your time trying to reason with this unreasonable oaf. This is the same b.s. he tries every time this topic comes up. He and a couple of other posters who think the same way will never change.
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What The Hey
The Holocausters accuse Revisionists of being hate-filled people who are promoting a doctrine of hatred. But Revisionism is a scholarly process, not a doctrine or an ideology. If the Holocaust promoters really want to expose hatred, they should take a second look at their own doctrines, and a long look at themselves in a mirror.
The Holocausters often deceptively claim that Revisionist scholarship has been proven false during a trial. The fact is, Revisionist arguments have never been evaluated or judged by the courts.
Those who take up the Revisionist cause represent a wide spectrum of political and philosophical positions. They are certainly not the scoundrels, liars and demons the Holocaust Lobby tries to make them out to be.
If you call me a bank robber in print and I am not a bank robber, that is called libel. If you call me a child molester and I am not a child molester, that is called libel also. If you call me in electronic print a ". . . prolific publisher of hate literature." You have just libeled me.
The fact is, there are no demons in the real world. People are at their worst when they begin to see their opponents as an embodiment of evil, and then begin to demonize them. You can do anything you want to a demon.
That logic will not succeed.
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Belle
Yeah buddy - this is all fake, doctored and, otherwise "Hollywood" footage - none of these atrocities really happened.
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Raf
Because you are.
And those who aren't are gullible to the point of shocking stupidity.
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Tom Strange
I've always thought it very appropriate that WTH has an avatar with a storm troopers helmet.
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What The Hey
No subject enrages the "Thought Police" more than Holocaust Revisionism. We debate every other great historical issue as a matter of course, but influential pressure groups with private agendas have made the Holocaust story an exception.
Those who promote the Holocaust story complain that "the whole world" was indifferent to the genocide which allegedly was occurring in German-occupied Europe. When asked why this was the case the promoters usually respond by saying that it was due to some great moral flaw in the nature of Western man. At other times they make the absurd claim that people did not realize the enormity of what was happening.
It is true that the world responded with indifference.
How else should people have responded to that which they did not believe, and which for them was a non-event?
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Belle
WTF, WTH?
Why don't you just say what you REALLY think? Here let me help you:
Good to see you, Mr. Strange! I've missed your witty words of wisdom around here.
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Lifted Up
That is one way to avoid answering the question. But here we go again with the emphasis on numbers; again we have to be in the millions for the event to be horrible I guess. Your "millions" is repeated twice more later in your post. For someone who said, "I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot", you seem to attach a lot of importance to "millions". But by putting so much evidence of the numbers, you appear to be admitting that hundreds of thousands of Jews at least (Your lowest number was in that range in your earlier post) were gassed by Hitler's regime. And the motivation was rather plain, according to Hitler's writings about the Jewish people, two of which (out of many, very well documented I will add) I included earlier. I figure that if you were advocating that it didn't happen at all, you wouldn't have quoted all those numbers.
What is also telling is your apparent attempt to camouflage the deaths of Jews gassed within all the deaths that resulted from World War II. Again, it seems to be an admission that these deliberate deaths occured, and that you are only attempting to decrease their significance.
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What The Hey
So no, I am not avoiding answering your question(s). YOU just have to catch up and get your facts straight before you (and others) are willing to accept the answer.
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doojable
Ummmmm - and what about the oven the Jews were put in? What about the "medical experiments"? What about the firing squads?
I'm interested in how much spin you can give here? I'll bet you can give Linda Blair a run for her money.
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What The Hey
The only question you missed was: What about the "soap" the Germans "manufactured" from the bodies of their victims? Macabre "Jewish soap" jokes became popular in the ghettos and camps, and many non-Jews on the outside came to believe the story. When trains loaded with Jewish deportees stopped temporarily at rail stations, Poles reportedly would gleefully shout at them: "Jews to soap!" Even British prisoners of war interned at Auschwitz in 1944 testified later about the wartime rumors that corpses of gassing victims were being turned into soap there.
Numerous Jews who lived in German ghettos and camps during the war helped keep the soap story alive many years later. The "human soap" story demonstrates anew the tremendous impact that a wartime rumor, no matter how fantastic, can have once it has taken hold, particularly when it is disseminated as a propaganda lie by influential individuals and powerful organizations. That so many intelligent and otherwise thoughtful people could ever have seriously believed that the Germans distributed bars of soap brazenly labeled with letters indicating that they were manufactured from Jewish corpses shows how readily even the most absurd Holocaust fables can be -- and are -- accepted as fact.
So to answer most of your "what about" questions, most of those stories were "manufactured" and have also been proven to have turned out to be a bunch of "soap stories." Those who advocate criminal persecution of "Holocaust deniers" are still living in the world of 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are now discredited.
It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal), are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant nearly to death. (Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C. Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p. 117.) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated there, and that a further half million died of disease. ("How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf Hoess," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403)
Today no reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to try to save himself and his family. But for purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately seek to keep any substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to Europe's Jews during World War II.
The issue can only be settled as all great historical controversies have been resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers and classrooms. I doubt anything like that though will ever happen here at GSC.
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