What gives Holocaust denial such an appeal?

[Sushi]

Hhmmmm, ... ya know, this might make for a good Twilight Zone script.

:ph34r: ((dooo DOOO doooo doooo ... dooo DOOO dooo dooo ..... ))

The video's not relevant, buuuut.

[Ductape]

Not for weak stomachs

Frontline: 1945 British Holocaust documentary.

British and American film crews entered and filmed this. The SS were made to bury the dead, over a week of hauling the dead to mass graves. I didn't watch it all the way through for the gas chambers. The Brits buried the film as it was to graphic. The horrors our troops found resulted in the beatings and deaths of German POWs. Perhaps Ike and the powers that were didn't want a blood bath to follow the German defeat. The truth buried and the result is the (cough) (cough) scientific proof" there was no holocaust.....

Wait, filmed in 1945 and it shows the gas chambers. Official records show how many were killed in the chambers. And some want to hold a quack that stole none evidence 40 years later as the messiah of holocaust facts.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Ductape

[What The Hey]

.....

Leuchter- who claimed expertise in an area he was a layman in and got caught pretending he had credentials-

I agree with you only in the sense that Leuchter did not gain a degree specific to his work, however --- he became an expert from his work, and everyone knows that. Unavoidably, Leuchter became a target of Jewish activists, and it was only a matter of time before prison wardens stopped hiring him. In Massachusetts, he was prosecuted and threatened with jail for practicing engineering without a license. (The Massachusetts prosecution was instigated by Beate and Serge Klarsfeld and their stooges, who also sent private circular letters to prison governors in the United States suggesting that they cease hiring Mr Leuchter. This is how they operate.) He was victimised, assaulted, and prosecuted at the instance of local Jewish bodies on the hardly relevant pretext that he had been practicing as an engineer without proper registration (as did over half of that state's engineers!)

The Feb. 1990 Atlantic Monthly described Leuchter as: “the nation’s only commercial supplier of execution equipment…A trained and accomplished engineer, he is versed in all types of execution equipment. He makes lethal-injection machines, gas chambers, and gallows, as well as electrocution systems…”

The New York Times, a few months later called Leuchter the “nation’s leading adviser on capital punishment.”

Author Stephen Trombley in his book on US capital punishment writes:

“America’s first and foremost supplier of execution hardware. His products include electric chairs, gas chambers, gallows, and lethal injection machines. He offers design, construction, installation, staff training, and maintenance.”

Missouri State Penitentiary Warden Bill Armontrout referred to Leuchters expertise to Zundel’s attorney.

(I realize close minded individuals like you do not like what is said in the Leuchter Report, but you're too late to do much about that). Many tens of thousands of copies of what has become known simply as the Leuchter Report are now in circulation around the world. It has been published in numerous countries and languages. Earlier this year, for example, it appeared for the first time in Russian in a collection of Revisionist writings published in Moscow. More recently, it was published in Hungarian in the August 25 issue of the Budapest intellectual journal Hunnia.

During the last two years, unfortunately, there has been no let up in the bigoted campaign to discredit Leuchter's work and reputation, and to destroy his career -- all because of his courageous refusal to lie about his professional findings. What his enemies want, apparently, is for Leuchter to violate his conscience, betray his profession, and to lie under oath in a court of law, all for the sake of upholding what has become, in essence, an article of religious belief. It is fair to say that no American has suffered more for his defiance of the Holocaust lobby than Fred Leuchter.

The most insidious (and effective) effort has been has been a behind-the-scenes campaign to destroy his livelihood by pressuring state governments to stop employing him as their execution hardware engineer. To allow Leuchter to continue working for the state, declared Illinois Representative Ellis Levin (D-Chicago), "would be an affront to the Jewish community." (Chicago Daily Law Bulletin, August 17, 1990.) Sadly, these underhanded efforts have been successful. The Chicago Sun-Times newspaper, for example, confirmed (in August 1990) that "the state [of Illinois] cut its ties with him over statements that Nazi gas chambers, including those at Auschwitz, could not have been used for executing Jews."

In spite of the clearly unfair and bigoted nature of the campaign against him, the normally vociferous champions of civil liberty and freedom of speech in America have, so far, anyway, been noticeably silent about this case.

An important propaganda weapon in this campaign has been a book published jointly by the Klarsfeld Foundation and a group that calls itself "Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice." This book bears the pretentious title: Truth Prevails: Demolishing Holocaust Denial: The End of 'The Leuchter Report'.

The most important charges made against Leuchter, which are also included in this widely distributed book, are:

• First, that Leuchter's motive in concluding that the alleged gas chambers were never used to kill anybody was the professional fee he received from Zündel for his work.
  
• Second, that Fred Leuchter has no qualifications as an execution equipment specialist, and
  
• Third, that he lied under oath in the 1988 Zündel trial.
  

What are the facts? Let's take a close look at each of these charges.

First, Leuchter's motives in conducting his forensic investigation of the alleged wartime gas chambers in Poland were entirely professional. While it is true that he was paid a standard fee by Zündel for his work, it cannot be stressed enough that Leuchter was chosen to carry out this investigation not because of any pre-existing views on this subject, but solely because he was the acknowledged expert in this field. His political views or social attitudes were never a consideration. (Just imagine what Leuchter's critics would be saying if he had conducted his forensic examination of the Polish camps on his own initiative, without charge.)

Before he flew to Poland to begin his investigation, Leuchter warned Zündel that if he concluded that the alleged extermination gas chambers were, in fact, used to kill people, or could have been so used, he would so testify in court. Zündel agreed to this condition. Regardless of his findings, Zündel would still have been obliged to pay Leuchter his fee.

In fact, if money and comfort had been primary considerations, and if he is as dishonorable as those who now attack him insinuate, Leuchter would simply have pocketed his fee from Zündel, and then told the court what the prosecution and the media wanted to hear.

Second, Leuchter's qualifications as a technical expert and inventor are actually quite impressive. His adversaries never tire of repeating that his only academic credential is a bachelor's degree in history, which he earned at Boston University in 1964. This has never been a secret.

What is not so well known, though, is the full story of his expertise.

For one thing, Leuchter did post-graduate study in celestial navigation mechanics at the Harvard-Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Since 1965, he has worked as an engineer on projects having to do with electrical, optical, mechanical, navigational and surveying problems. He holds patents in the fields of optics, navigation, encoding, geodetic surveying and surveying instrumentation, including patents on sextants, surveying instruments and optical instrument encoders.

From 1965 through 1970 he was the technical director for a firm in Boston, where he specialized in airborne, opto-electronic, and photographic surveillance equipment. He designed the first low-level, color, stereo-mapping system for use in a helicopter, which has become an airborne standard.

In 1970, he formed an independent consulting firm. During his period with this firm, he designed and built the first electronic sextant and developed a unique, light-weight, compact and inexpensive optical drum sector encoder for use with surveying and measuring instruments. He also built the first electronic sextant for the US Navy. He has worked on and designed astro trackers utilized in the on-board guidance systems of ICBM missiles.

Because of his work in navigational devices he has had hands-on experience with surveying and geodetic measuring equipment and a thorough knowledge of map-reading and cartography. He is trained in reading and interpreting aerial photographs. He designed a computerized transit for surveying use, and several years ago he developed the first low-cost personal telephone monitor.

During the past 14 years, Leuchter has been a consultant to several state governments on equipment used to execute convicted criminals, including hardware for execution by lethal injection, electrocution, gassing and hanging. In the course of this work, he designed a new gas chamber for the state of Missouri, and he designed and constructed the first lethal injection machine for New Jersey. Leuchter has also been a consultant on execution procedures. He has held a research medical license from both state and federal governments, and has supplied the necessary drugs for use in execution support programs.

In 1987, he formed Fred A. Leuchter Associates, a consulting engineering firm specializing in general consulting and the design and construction of prototype hardware. He has been a forensic engineer consultant, and has testified as an expert in courts in the United States and Canada.

(On a more personal note, Fred Leuchter is an accomplished pianist and musician, as well as a certified small arms instructor and NRA expert marksman.) More to the point,Leuchter's expertise in precisely the field of execution hardware is a matter of public record, and has been authoritatively and publicly confirmed.

Indeed, no one was better qualified to carry out his investigation. At that time, Leuchter was recognized as the foremost American expert on the design and fabrication of gas chambers and other hardware used to execute criminals in the United States. He has worked on and designed facilities used to kill condemned criminals with hydrogen cyanide gas, the same gas supposedly used to kill many hundreds of thousands of Jews at Auschwitz.

Leuchter's expertise as the nation's foremost specialist of execution hardware, including gas chambers, has been abundantly confirmed. William Armontrout, warden of the Missouri State Penitentiary, testified on this matter during the 1988 "Holocaust Trial" of Ernst Zündel. As warden, Armontrout supervised the state's execution gas chamber. He testified under oath that he had consulted with Leuchter on the design, maintenance and operation of the Missouri gas chamber, and confirmed that, to the best of his knowledge, Leuchter is the only such consultant in the United States.

Leuchter's expertise has also been recognized by prominent periodicals, including The Atlantic in a four-page article in its February 1990 issue. An article in the weekly national news magazine Insight of July 2, 1990, called Leuchter, "the nation's leading expert in the mechanics of execution." Finally, Leuchter's expertise was acknowledged on the ABC television news program "Prime Time Live," broadcast on May 10th, 1990, and by The New York Times in a prominently featured article in its issue of October 13, 1990, which was accompanied by a front-page photo of Leuchter.

No matter what the long-term outcome of the still unfolding Leuchter affair may be, the indisputable fact will remain, that on the basis of a careful on-site inspection, the man who is America's acknowledged foremost expert on gas chamber technology has categorically declared under oath that the alleged mass extermination gas chambers were never used, and never could have been used, as execution devices.

With regard to the third charge -- that Leuchter lied under oath in the 1988 Zündel trial -- it might first be pointed out that the laws of physics have not been suspended for the sake of the Holocaust story. To repeat:

1. If Leuchter is wrong, it should not be difficult to prove it.
   
2. If he is right, his work and findings will stand the test of time - and his courage will be vindicated.
   

At the 1989 IHR Conference, Leuchter dramatically called for a neutral, international commission of engineers, historians and scholars to go to Auschwitz and the other camps, and to either confirm or repudiate his findings. Not surprisingly, those who have been trying so hard to silence and discredit Leuchter have ignored his challenge. Indeed, the very nature of this insidious campaign, including the unwillingness of his adversaries to seriously come to grips with his work, implicitly confirms the soundness of Leuchter's findings.

In this regard, it is highly significant that Leuchter's findings have recently been authoritatively corroborated and confirmed:

First, the Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow, Poland, corroborated Leuchter's findings in a confidential September 1990 forensic report. Although it was not meant to be made public, Revisionists were able to obtain a copy. An English-language translation of the complete text was published in the Summer 1991 issue of the IHR Journal.

Second, Austrian engineer Walter Lüftl explicitly endorsed Leuchter's findings in a March 1992 report, which appears elsewhere in this issue of the Journal.

Third, German engineer Germar Rudolf, a highly qualified professional, has thoroughly supported Leuchter's findings in an exhaustive report that will probably be published in 1993. (Sorry about this old excerpt which was discussed prior to 1993. In 1994, Rudolf was sentenced to 14 months in prison by the district court of Tübingen because of the "Rudolf Report", as Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany. Rudolf avoided prison by fleeing to Spain, England and finally to Chicago, USA. There, he applied for political asylum, but his request was denied).

Another German engineer, Wolfgang Schuster (Dipl.Ing.), pointedly defended the validity of Leuchter's findings against the criticisms of French pharmacist Jean-Claude Pressac in a five-page essay published in the German quarterly journal Deutschland in Geschichte und Gegenwart (Tuebingen, June 1991).

There you have it folks.

At least three highly qualified engineers have substantiated the validity of Fred A. Leuchters findings - but Mr. Wordwolf and Mr. Hammeroni are still apparently having a lot of difficulty with those facts.

(Some others here are having difficulty too, because many people at GSC apparently respect these two windbags personal opinions - because of what was said in a court of law?)

OK. If what is said in court, and if these three qualified engineers aren't enough to convince anyone -- we DO have the testimony of someone under oath in a court of law - Dr. William B. Lindsey giving his testimony. (Note very carefully the specific italicized and underlined section below:)

Finally, it is worth noting that Dr. William B. Lindsey, an American research chemist (now retired) who was employed for 33 years by the Dupont Corporation, anticipated Leuchter's findings during testimony given in the first Zündel trial in 1985. Based on his own careful on-site examination of the alleged extermination gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, and on his years of experience as a chemist, Lindsey declared under oath: "I have come to the conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B [hydrogen cyanide gas] in this manner. I consider it absolutely impossible." (The Globe and Mail, Toronto, Feb. 12, 1985, p. M3.)

(Conclusion: We NOW have three qualified engineers, as well as the testimony of someone else (besides Fred Leuchter and William Armontrout) testifying under oath in a court of law substantiating Leuchter's findings. But we are supposed to believe all three individuals (Mr. Fred Leuchter, Mr. William Armontrout, and Dr. William Lindsey - all three of them, delibertly purjured themselves in court? Apparently this still isn't enough to convince Mr. Wordwolf and Mr. Hammeroni though. I'll go on record saying they are putting forth a whole heck of a lot of effort just to believe a lie.)

In spite of the vicious campaign against him, Leuchter has remained defiant and confident of ultimate vindication. As he has put it:

I have been vilified by the caretakers of the Holocaust dogma whose desperate tactics prove the failure of their arguments. My livelihood has been destroyed, my character has been impugned and my life turned upside down. But I will not bend the knee: Not now, not tomorrow, not ever. Time and reason will vindicate the Leuchter Report.

One day, after the dogmatic passions of our era have given way to open-mindedness on this most emotion-charged of issues, Fred Leuchter will be admired as a most remarkable man of integrity and courage who defied powerful forces of bigotry and close-mindedness. He will be remembered as a man who, in striking a mighty blow for historical truth and understanding, has himself made history.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1992-93 (Vol. 12, No. 4), pages 421-428.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you truly doubted Mr. Leuchters credentials, then I am fairly certain that you would have contacted Fred A. Luechter yourself to satisfy your own curiosity on the matter, and not simply take anybody else's word for it.

1. Mr. Luechter is an engineer specializing in gas chambers and executions.
   
2. He is well versed in all areas, and he is the only consultant in the United States I know of.”
   

(I highly doubt anyone here will call Mr. Luechter or his associates to make an inquiry about his credentials. The reason I doubt that is because I already know no one here is even up to the challenge of calling the US Holocaust Museum to find out if there truly is any physical evidence, war time documents, etc., at any of the Holocaust Museums in the US - for pretty much the same reason. That reason would be you are afraid to face the facts and change you're belief in the "Holy Blessed Holocaust" religious myth).

....

(every thing else said was just more monkeey's flying out your ....).

Edited October 8, 2007 by What The Hey

[waysider]

Marsupials frighten me!

[Ham]

“America’s first and foremost supplier of execution hardware. His products include electric chairs, gas chambers, gallows, and lethal injection machines. He offers design, construction, installation, staff training, and maintenance.”

It may be a minor point.. but that's not exactly the description I'd be pleased to see in my own personal resume, or on my tombstone either..

I have been vilified by the caretakers of the Holocaust dogma whose desperate tactics prove the failure of their arguments. My livelihood has been destroyed, my character has been impugned and my life turned upside down.

If I were an amateur mathmatician. and I came up with a new version of the multiplication table..

I suppose I'd be "vilified" as well.

9 times 9 is not 81.. it's 156.

cmon, you smart guys.. we need some independent investigation here..

can you imagine.. in a court of law..

"mr. ham, what are your qualifications to make such an assertion.."

I'd better have a pretty convincing argument, and a degree from Harvard.. or Oxford..

The state of Indiana once was considering establishing the constant Pi as 3. Not the customary 3.14159265....

The "poor, vilified" professor who asserted this.. well, the results were proven to be unfounded and false. Poor, persecuted, destitute (probably didn't hold much of a job after such a claim) MARTYR..

only thing I can say.. if someone wants to be a martyr, there are a lot better causes looking for one, other than holocaust denial, or desecration of the numer Pi..

[Ham]

whose desperate tactics prove the failure of their arguments.

What desperate tactics? Something like.. illegally using a hammer and chisel to remove bricks from a death chamber?

If you want to talk desperation.. I think that's it..

ends justify the means I guess..

no wonder he so "desperately" debates the "ends"..

[What The Hey]

It may be a minor point.. but that's not exactly the description I'd be pleased to see in my own personal resume, or on my tombstone either..

If I were an amateur mathmatician. and I came up with a new version of the multiplication table..

I suppose I'd be "vilified" as well.

Very doubtful. You might be thought of someone who is "crazy", but not many would physically assault you, send you a mail bomb, or burn down your home because of your beliefs.

9 times 9 is not 81.. it's 156.

Kind of a remarkable point you are making using mathmatics - the point being revisionist scholarship has actually decreased that 6 million figure by a rather large and significant amount instead of increasing that figure. (We revisionists prefer to leave those mathmatics up to the Holocaust exterminists.)

Moreover, I would like to believe DECREASING the amount of Jewish people reported as being killed [or exterminated] by Nazi Germany during WWII would actually be a good thing - not necessarily a bad thing - ESPECIALLY for Jews! But the truth is, increasing the number of Holocaust victims is the mathmatical by-product of the Holocaust exterminists. Sorry. You simply can not blame the revisionists for doing what the exterminists themselves have done - and apparently they still are doing. I suppose you need further proof of this.. Well, let me run these figures by you then.

Not many US Citizens are aware of a current bill in Congress that will require and make Holocaust education (barf - whose version?) mandatory and will eventually end up costing the US tax payer $10 million over the next 5 years or so. But not many US citizens I believe are willing to discuss these "Holocaust mathematics are they - mathmatics based on $$$" and just what precisely it is going to cost - eventually. (Personally, I believe it will ultimately end up being a figure much more than $10 mil. if that bill becomes law.)

cmon, you smart guys.. we need some independent investigation here..

can you imagine.. in a court of law..

"mr. ham, what are your qualifications to make such an assertion.."

I'd better have a pretty convincing argument, and a degree from Harvard.. or Oxford..

The state of Indiana once was considering establishing the constant Pi as 3. Not the customary 3.14159265....

The "poor, vilified" professor who asserted this.. well, the results were proven to be unfounded and false. Poor, persecuted, destitute (probably didn't hold much of a job after such a claim) MARTYR..

only thing I can say.. if someone wants to be a martyr, there are a lot better causes looking for one, other than holocaust denial, or desecration of the numer Pi..

As previously noted: Fred Leuchter intially went to Auschwitz to PROVE the holocaust claim. He would have testified in court against Ernest Zundel if what he saw corroberated the "orthodox version of the Holocaust". He went, he saw - but came back a very much enlightened man. But then again, you are entirely missing the point - which is the point of someone who is being truthful, regardless if you happen to think they are or not.

There were plenty of people througout history willing to become martyr's for Jesus Christ as well. Are you now suggesting the reason they decided to become martyr's is because He [Jesus Christ] didn't have the proper degree's in Christian theology? We all know today Jesus Christ never had any degrees - whatsoever - and yet he claims he spoke the truth. HOW DARE HE MAKE THAT CLAIM! (Whose version of the truth was he speaking, anyway? His own?) [sounds very familar to me - very similar to the "third degree" the Judge was giving Fred Leuchter regarding his degree.]

Afterall, it was Him-Jesus and no one else who made the claim He was the Son of God - and Jesus certainly had no proof (or degree to prove) he was the Son of God either! So how would someone today prove and substantiate the claims that He [that Jesus Christ] made - that He truly is the son of God?)

You may as well say that is precisely the reason why many people have become martyr's for Christ - because the claims Jesus made were false as he had no "doctorate degree in theology" - and as a result many people ended up and were also likewise deceived by Him and that is why they became martyrs. But then again, these be preposterous and ludicrous claims you be making! Why?

Because no one decides to become a martyr for a lie that they believe in!

Just who are you trying to kid with all your "double talk" anyway?

As stated in the conlcusion from my previous post: I'll go on record saying they (refering to Mr Hammeroni and WW) are putting forth a whole heck of a lot of effort into believing a lie - the lie and myth regarding the Holocaust. It may indeed have become a "religion" - although a false one.

Not that they have become martry's for their cause mind you - but I realize they are putting a lot of effort into it.

And throwing taxpayers money toward Holocaust education is magically going to make that lie go away?

Edited October 8, 2007 by What The Hey

[WordWolf]

As stated in the conlcusion from my previous post: I'll go on record saying they (refering to Mr Hammeroni and WW) are putting forth a whole heck of a lot of effort into believing a lie - the lie and myth regarding the Holocaust. It may indeed have become a "religion" - although a false one.

I'll go on record saying that I'd be amazed if anyone but WTH thinks this is me putting any significant

effort into something.

As for WTH thinking the Holocaust is a "lie", "myth", or any type of religion, he's entitled

to think that, but we're entitled to examine the evidence more closely.

Such as, everything we've mentioned in the thread that he's skipped over, such as footage

from the sites, and discussions of non-Jews who said what they saw, and bore the

serial #s on their skin.

Exactly WHO's believing something false is really not that difficult to determine.

If one is really honest and trying.

Not that they have become martry's for their cause mind you - but I realize they are putting a lot of effort into it.

And throwing taxpayers money toward Holocaust education is magically going to make that lie go away?

A) Still not putting in SIGNIFICANT effort, let alone "a lot."

B) I never said anything about adding more education on the Holocaust.

However, since the subject's been raised, I believe WTH himself has provided the

strongest evidence that some REAL education on this subject needs to be

introduced in some places.

Otherwise, you get what we've seen on this thread....

Myself, I think education in general could always use some improvement,

and that's when things are less dire than this....

[GarthP2000]

Folks,

You know you're getting to WTH when he feels the need to use big blue and even bigger red colored fonts to endeavor to prove his point.

;)

Edited October 8, 2007 by GarthP2000

[Ham]

Very doubtful. You might be thought of someone who is "crazy", but not many would physically assault you, send you a mail bomb, or burn down your home because of your beliefs.

Don't be so sure about that. Some mathematicians are pretty darn serious about nonsense in the profession..

As previously noted: Fred Leuchter intially went to Auschwitz to PROVE the holocaust claim.

Like slick vic.. did his "research" in such an unbiased, "professional" manner. "had da WORD said so and so, I'd a GLADLY accepted it.." I wouldn't believe that for the proverbial New York minute.

Must be why he sent his men on a wild goose chase trying to find manuscripts to support his theology.. "one day, they'll find a text.. it HAS to say such and such in da original.." Sorry.. never found it..

I find the analogy between vic and leuchter to be more fitting than leuchter and Jesus..

far less contrast.

Anyway..

leuchter desecrated a CEMETARY..

Not only criminal, but immoral.

No matter how you crunch the numbers, no matter how many died there.. Auchwitz is STILL a graveyard.

Any insane effort to reduce the numbers, at least in this particular context, is irrelevant.

In my opinion.. the man is unclean.. associated with death, and a defiler of the resting places of the dead.

[doojable]

WTH- for the record... the bigger your font and the brighter your colors, the less you get your point across. Perhaps this is what you really want.

You fail to see the more obvious points made and you only stick to points that are explained by the weakest of means. I'm not scientist, but even I can see that the man was sloppy in his research.

Keep your head in the sand if it suits you... it certainly would be quieter if you also did your shouting there.

[What The Hey]

I'll go on record saying that I'd be amazed if anyone but WTH thinks this is me putting any significant effort into something. As for WTH thinking the Holocaust is a "lie", "myth", or any type of religion, he's entitled to think that, but we're entitled to examine the evidence more closely. Such as, everything we've mentioned in the thread that he's skipped over, such as footage from the sites, and discussions of non-Jews who said what they saw, and bore the serial #s on their skin.

The revisionists have already covered and discussed many of the issues you have mentioned, i.e. footage from other sites, Holocaust survivor testimonies, etc. - issues that have been brought up here - by you and by others elsewhere. (GSC and this thread is not the only disscussion board on the Internet discussing the Holocaust.) So truly, nothing has been "skipped over" like you claim they have. Apparently you have NOT examined the evidence more closely - like you claim you have done. (Anybody can make a claim, but the proof is in the pudding.) WW says he's entiled to examine the evidence more closely, but to the contrary - he's been very slow to catch up.

Exactly WHO's believing something false is really not that difficult to determine. If one is really honest and trying.

No disagreement there. I just have a hard time believing the exterminists version regarding the Holocaust. (Of course they portray themselves as being honest and trying). When confronted with revisionist evidence however, they move the goal posts (skip over that evidence) so they can continue to appear honest and trying. But they too, are very often - "slow to catch up".

A) Still not putting in SIGNIFICANT effort, let alone "a lot."

B) I never said anything about adding more education on the Holocaust. However, since the subject's been raised, I believe WTH himself has provided the

strongest evidence that some REAL education on this subject needs to be introduced in some places.

Thanks. (I also realize you never said anything about Holocaust education or the need for more eduction on the Holocaust on this thread, or even at GSC.) I am just thanking you for at least recognizing and being honest enough to realize I have provided the strongest evidence more education on the Holocaust is needed. (But as I have also raised the issue earlier, this is becoming increasingly difficult because of the "Holocaust denial laws" and the "thought police" currently enforicing those laws.) And yes, this subject is being introduced and discussed in other places - not just here at GSC. This chat board is too emotionally charged to discuss many issues rationally, such as the Holocaust.

Otherwise, you get what we've seen on this thread....

Emotionally charged responses ... not necessarily rational ones.

Myself, I think education in general could always use some improvement, and that's when things are less dire than this....

And when people make things "less dire than this" that is usually when they state they have examined all the evidence.

[Sushi]

Marsupials frighten me!

Cause they're faaast....

[Lifted Up]

I agree, the numbers certainly don't matter a whole lot, especially when historians with credible reputations themselves can't agree on the exact "number." Heck I say, make up a number yourself - you might end up and be a whole lot closer to the truth then they are. Where I happen to disagree with you though is that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. Even if there were such an attempt, why should we be involved?

Funny the way you can re read through this thread and notice something you missed earlier. We are talking about the holocaust, an event from over 60 years ago. I presented a couple (out of many) of Hitler's statements regarding what he thought of Jews and what he was going to do to them. All of this discussion has been about this event, and in an answer to a post of mine, you say you disagree with me, saying that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people.

Currently? I never said anything about whether or not there were any current attempts to exterminate them. You are disagreeing with me on something I never said anything about. Or is that an admission from you that the Holocaust was an attempt to exterminate the Jewish people? After all, that is what this thread is about.

Has anybody else done what I did...go over this threads and notice something that they missed?

[WordWolf]

I wonder how that selective reading is working out for WTH.

He QUOTED me as saying this....

(WW)

I'll go on record saying that I'd be amazed if anyone but WTH thinks this is me putting any significant effort into something. As for WTH thinking the Holocaust is a "lie", "myth", or any type of religion, he's entitled to think that, but we're entitled to examine the evidence more closely. Such as, everything we've mentioned in the thread that he's skipped over, such as footage from the sites, and discussions of non-Jews who said what they saw, and bore the serial #s on their skin.

and replied with this....

(WTH)

The revisionists have already covered and discussed many of the issues you have mentioned, i.e. footage from other sites, Holocaust survivor testimonies, etc. - issues that have been brought up here - by you and by others elsewhere. (GSC and this thread is not the only disscussion board on the Internet discussing the Holocaust.) So truly, nothing has been "skipped over" like you claim they have.(snip)

Once again, WTH seems to forget that we're supposedly having a discussion HERE

and not across many other messageboards. He can't take credit for discussions elsewhere-

just his own participation in this one.

As such, my point about "everything we've mentioned in the thread that he's skipped over"

(exemplified by some things mentioned a few times and summarily ignored by him)

can't LOGICALLY be addressed by saying

"the revisionists have already covered" it,

"So truly, nothing has been 'skipped over' like you claim they have."

I don't see "the revisionists" posting on this thread and commenting on what was

posted here- just him. And he's skipped over several things.

That's his choice, and he's entitled to stick with it,

but it's rather silly of him to pretend he's not doing it,

and to attempt to obfuscate that by mentioning other people elsewhere are

discussing it, which has nothing to do with whether he looks at video footage, for example.

So, it's a matter of

A) ignore the evidence that challenges his position

B) pretend there's no problems with evidence supporting his position

which are old twi tactics which are archaisms for most of us, but not all of us,

just as vpw's comments concerning Jews (which were disproven with genetics)

are archaisms for most of us, but not all of us.

[Ham]

Maybe it gives some these folks a sense of importance.. they think they have something that 99.999999 percent of the rest of the world does not.

Reminds me of the pride of der ministry..supposedly having the TRUTH as it has NOT been known since the first century..

"just don't confuse me with details.."

especially if they don't agree with one's claim.

What about.. the thousands upon thousands of shoes warehoused in some of the camps, that were confiscated from the victims.. I would say by the time they arrived, most of the people didn't have any shoes left.. and here, the camps were organized to the extent that they had a plan to warehouse a small detail as SHOES.

where did they come from? Somebody wore them, once.. where'd the owners go?

the pictures of the few survivors who were starved, and forced to work..

documentation of bizarre medical "experiments"..

I think centrally controlled, massive action, on this scale, pretty much proves intent.

along with Hitler's WRITTEN comments about what to do with the Jews..

I'll admit.. fantasy would be a lot more comfortable to embrace.

[What The Hey]

...

I don't see "the revisionists" posting on this thread and commenting on what was posted here- just him.

That's a very good question. Why should the revisionists bother to post here?

The truth of the matter is - the revisionists DO want a debate.

However, that wold be: - An intellectual, up-front debate in a respected global forum. They have invited the entrenched and powerful Holocaust Lobby to do likewise.

GSC (and this particular thread) hardly qualifies as being either. Apparently WordWolf thinks GSC and this thread qualifies as being such - but then, that is his problem.

Despite WordWolf's problem, there exists a global discipline called Revisionism. Its aim is to shed new light on certain widely accepted but never scrutinized claims regarding certain aspects of World War II, including claims pertaining to the Holocaust. (i.e. one of those aspects would be the gas supposedly used to exterminate the Jews - specifically HCN or Zyklon B - it's trade name.) Revisionists all over the world have worked very hard, for decades, unearthing documents and inspecting forensic evidence so as to bring history in accord with the facts - not in accord with myth and emotion.

The aim of the exterminists however, is always to explain history in accord with myth and emotion. Afterall, what would the holocaust be without that "mystical Nazi gas chamber?" One might as well ask, "What would Christmas be without Santa Claus? Christianity be without the Trinity?" Traditional Christianity and Christmas would take on a completely different view without those stories. To no one's surpirse, traditionalists always feel very uncomfortable whenever their views and their stories are challenged. Likewise the exterminists have many "stories" to explain their version of the Holocaust, just as there are many stories to explain to you the Trinity and Santa Claus.

And he's skipped over several things. That's his choice, and he's entitled to stick with it, but it's rather silly of him to pretend he's not doing it, and to attempt to obfuscate that by mentioning other people elsewhere are discussing it, which has nothing to do with whether he looks at video footage, for example.

That's merely your assumption. Just because I have not addressed everyone's conern at GSC or in this thread does not imply or indicate I have "skipped over" several things. On the contrary, I have spent a lot of time scrutinizing things the exterminists have not even yet considered themselves. The truth of the matter is, people here (as well as other places on the Internet) are very slow to catch up to revisionist scholarship. As I stated earlier, that is your (and their) problem, not mine.

...

(again, everything else WW says after this is just more monkees flying out his ...)

Edited October 9, 2007 by What The Hey

[What The Hey]

Funny the way you can re read through this thread and notice something you missed earlier. We are talking about the holocaust, an event from over 60 years ago. I presented a couple (out of many) of Hitler's statements regarding what he thought of Jews and what he was going to do to them. All of this discussion has been about this event, and in an answer to a post of mine, you say you disagree with me, saying that there is currently no attempt to exterminate the Jewish people.

Currently? I never said anything about whether or not there were any current attempts to exterminate them. You are disagreeing with me on something I never said anything about. Or is that an admission from you that the Holocaust was an attempt to exterminate the Jewish people? After all, that is what this thread is about.

Has anybody else done what I did...go over this threads and notice something that they missed?

Again, we see someone slow to catch up to revisionist scholarship.

The Revisionist claim is: Official state policy towards the Jews in the Third Reich was emigration, not extermination.

It is true that Hitler Germany wanted to remove the Jews from the German people's "sphere of influence." The country was at war - a war largely seen as having been instigated by international banking Jewry, and Jews were seen as a corroding influence, not only financially but also racially and culturally. Hitler Germany was adamant in not wanting Jews to be part of Germany because they were held to be harmful to the fabric of an ethnically cohesive society as it was woven by Hitler. The Führer wanted the Jews "out of his face." He certainly was not fond of them.

But that is where the story stops. The Talmudic twists and gyrations some of these people still go through, when "relocation" and "evacuation" of Jews suddenly become code words for "extermination", is amazing! All of this was covered in the Zündel Trials in the minutest detail and has been laid to rest forever in the transcripts of those trials - now permanent documents in the Canadian judicial law libraries!

The Himmler Posen speech, to be even more specific, was the subject of lengthy analysis in the two Toronto Zündel trials. Minute detail can be gleaned in studying the testimony of German political scientist Udo Walendy and Dr. Robert Faurisson in the 1985 trial and in the testimony of Browning, Faurisson British historian David Irving and Mark Weber in the second, 1988, trial. (Again, the reference here is the Kulaszka book, Did Six Million Really Die?)

Of course, a little basic research on this would have gone a long way for Nizkor. Time and again, the Holocaust Promotion Lobby counts on the naivety of the reader who is not likely to check on the facts and fine-tune his thinking on what was meant by "evacuation" and "relocation." So, did the Nazis whisper in each others ears how to exterminate millions and millions of Jews? The exterminist's would also like to make this believable. Maybe so is the Easter bunny?

So now it is agreed by friend and foe alike (except by those who still need to catch up) there was no Führer order.

What is still left are two incendiary words: "Final Solution" - or, the German equivalent, "Endlösung."

Let's look at those.

It is true that the words "Endlösung" or "Final Solution" were used in reference to the Jews. So what? Does that prove anything? Does that mean "extermination"? Does a "Final Solution" to the unemployment problem mean the government is going to exterminate all the unemployed?

During the war, the phrase was used in Canada when dealing with the Japanese - and nobody claims today that Canada was planning genocidal things with reference to Orientals!

In a recent television documentary about Canada's wartime policy toward Canadians of Japanese origin, documents were unearthed that talked about "The Final Solution" to the "Japanese problem" - which was relocation, denaturalization and deportation of the Japanese from Canada to Japan.

This was exactly what Germany's policies were towards the Jews - for almost the same reasons.

The country was at war, and Jews were seen as subversive to the government and to the war effort - just as Japanese were seen as subversive to Canadian wartime policies.

In fact, Germany's policies were far less race-based and much more ideological in nature than Canada's. As a matter of fact and record, tens of thousands of Jews lived and worked in Germany during the war outside concentration camps, even in Hitler's capital, Berlin - one of them being the famous Rabbi and Zionist leader Leo Boeck, who was a practicing rabbi in 1943!

If you doubt that, check the 1943 Berlin telephone book!

Edited October 9, 2007 by What The Hey

[Ham]

but what about the shoes? Thousands upon thousands of them..

These were part of one shipment to germany..

How about glasses.. what percentage of people wear glasses.. yet, here we have: thousands upon thousands, before they likewise were shipped back to der faderland..

SOMEBODY once wore these shoes, and glasses.. where are they? Where'd they go?

More and more shoes, another camp:

More shoes, yet ANOTHER camp..

Ya know.. living, breathing, human beings once walked in them.. one pair to a customer.

The real graphic stuff, I won't post here. This is sad enough..

Look for yourself.. if you have the stomach..

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/photos/

[Ham]

Here's a report from Himmler to Hitler:

If you don't read German, notice the "363,211" about three quarters down the page. Under "C" above it, the words translate "Jews executed".

This only took them three months in Russia.

[Ham]

Here is a picture of some of hitler's "boys" on a "field trip" to Poland. Notice the inscription on the train:

"We are going to Poland to strike at the Jews"

No intent there, eh?

Edited October 9, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

They look so happy.. like it's a "proud moment" for der faderland.. and the boss..

[simonzelotes]

I've been following this thread the last few days,mainly,because I realize I'm not very learned in this aspect of history...I will say that I appreciate the actual information posted rather than the demonizing pot-shots that,to me,are not very becoming to the anti-revisionist faction..

Fortunately,for those like me who are unsure of anything,anymore,I need not confess with my mouth the Holocaust and believe in mine heart that 6,000,000 Jews were exterminated to be saved...So what is really at issue here?....Hamm's original question is "What gives Holocaust denial such appeal?"....Over the course of several threads,I believe WTH gave different reasons in between other information about the actual holocaust...Now, those reasons have been interpreted as being anti-semitic,hateful,a wierwillite and so forth...

I guess if I were to start a thread like this it would be "Anti-semitism---facts and myths"....If Jewish people have been persecuted throughout the centurios,culminating with the holocaust,then what gives hating them such appeal,if that's the case?....I can understand religious persecution,or battling over land or money and so forth,but I don't quite get the "red-headed stepchild" as P-mosh referred to...From my way years,I remember Jesus saying something like the world will hate you even as it hated me,and the book of Acts seemingly avers that...Is being hated something that befalls all of 'God's chosen'?...Why would the non-religious be anti-semitic?

[Ham]

One thing distinguishes this incident of genocide..

it was the most documented one in history, that is, documented by the perpetrators.

they really thought they were doing the faderland, if not the whole world, a favor..

the pictures "proudly" show the spoils from "the enemy" (mostly unarmed, by the way) for the home land.

They even chased them as they fled into the surrounding countries..

but the word of a non-engineer hold some people spell bound. Why is it? Maybe reality is too much for some..

[simonzelotes]

This may be a dumb question,but is there anything out there that refutes Leuchter's results,or methodology,other than he didn't have the credentials?....