Another influence on Hitler was Richard Wagner, not merely because Hitler loved the music (as I do) but because Wagner's writings fell in very much with Nazi ideas.
Nothing, absolutely nothing. There is no real appeal.
Denying the existence of, or reducing the significance of the Holocaust is like saying the 400 years of slavery in North America was an African Study Abroad Work Program.
quote:
Originally posted by Zshot:
While I was stationed in Germany, I visited the Dachou concentration camp.
It is hard to describe the feelings that I had. The closest words would be extreme sorrow.
I came to believe that there was such a thing as pure evil and I stood where it once thrived.
About 18 months ago I stood inside the Elmina Slave Castle in the city of Elmina in Ghana, West Africa. It is the largest of the slave castles on the coast of W. Africa. Over 80% of all of the African captives bound for the Americas left from the shores of Ghana... "and about 70% of them left from here, Elmina Castle..."
As our tour guide spoke I drifted off into an indescribable rollercoaster of thoughts, emotions and an almost trancelike state. It was as if the guide's words transported me back into time and I could "see and hear" the events he spoke of happening all around me.
When you stand "there" yourself, where it happened and you care, God takes you there - - then. You "experience" it vicariously via the ones who speak to you of it. I "see" shadows on the walls, hear the murmuring of the croud, the angry shouts, the screams of children in different languages calling, "Mommy, Daddy!" when they inevitable got separated in the mass of humanity the guards herded forward through gates and narrow doorways.
Looking down I could imagine and "feel" the pain of the scrapes I'd get for falling or scuffing my knees & elbows on the rough brick walls and floors. I could "smell" the blood mixed with the body odor, the stench of urine and excrement along with the sweet, salty ocean air; "feel" the heat of the sun. This place is unimaginably beautiful! Paradise. The contrast of the life giving, awesomely soothing, healing beauty of paradise butted against the hellacious, sheer horror of chained captivity. Combined with the inevitable deaths, injury, murder, rape and humilation of being de-humanized to the point where I was less the most expendable or property....
The walls of my sanity were being breeched.
I'm sure Zshot and Sunesis would agree of the overwhelming nature of the experience. Indescribable. "You just had to be there..." is such an understatement. Physically "connecting" with (seeing the tatoo, standing in the spot, etc.) it helps so much to connect with the event, making it an undeniable reality to you.
Feeling the heat of the sun, hearing the waves crash on the shore, smelling the salty air, feeling the breeze taking in the awesome beauty outside the walls and contrasting it with the sheer horror of what was happening inside helped me to "pseudo gnosko" the fact that the people who survived that were HEROES. The nature of the experience was that it was UN-survivable .
Same goes for Holocaust survivors, the survivors had to be among the strongest, (mentally & physically), healthiest, most fortunate and most blessed of all. They deserve nothing less than our best. Our highest praise and adulation is the LEAST we can do for them. The INTENT of their experience was that NONE of them would survive.
I, for the first time in my then 45 years of life, understood the true significance of their survival. They literally "walked through the valley of the shadow of death." The Holocaust survivors don't speak much of their experiences partly because the grace involved with their survival is so incredible they have no words to describe it. There are none.
To have the least desire to discredit them in any way shape or form is to own the highest degree of human arrogance and overblown ego available to mankind. The only appeal is to feed one's own arrogance and cultivate one's own ego.
I remember one particular Corps night where Martindale had a fit because the NK 8th grade class trip to DC was going to include a trip to the Holocaust Museum. He was absolutely rabid about it and made a big deal out of it with the school, and I think he made them find another activity for the Way staff kids to attend while their class went to the Holocaust Museum.
I vaguely remember my daughter talking to me about something like that. Part of the end result of it was that NK folks are more sure than ever that TWI folks are crazy.
About a year ago, or less, one of the honor student groups at NK school went to some meeting where the speaker was a Holocaust Survivor. Jasmine told me that the way kids derided this frail old lady with ugly "questions" concerning their negative holocaust beliefs so badly that the lady cried. Jasmine told me she had to SCREAM at the way kids who were doing this before they would stop. She started out tactfully saying things to back them off then it escalated to the point where Jasmine pulled rank as their class president and ORDERED them to STOP IT!
Jaz was incensed, the lady never finished the presentation. Jaz reported to the school administration what happened. She also gave the speaker an official apology on behalf of the school for the ugly conduct of the students.
Yes. Anti-holocaust thinking is a slippery slope to the SAME hatred the NAZI's owned.
Jasmine told me that the way kids derided this frail old lady with ugly "questions" concerning their negative holocaust beliefs so badly that the lady cried.
how very sad. you know, people do that too when you tell them about sexual abuse in The Way.
My Good friend and climbing partner is a Public TV Producer. He last year did a documentary on Aushwitz. From his view there was no way this could not have happened. There was no lieing involved and the horrors of the camp were worse than what the public has ever been told.
all TWI did by denying that the holocaust ever happened was to dishonor those whose lives were lost at the hands of the nazis. After what was told to me I have nothing but respect for the people whom the holocaust affected. Did anyone ever stop to think of how many heros there were during the time of the concentation camps. There were many who laid down thier lives for others. It was a time a tragedy and a time of heroism. They should get our honor and respect
As a little boy, my husband was nosing around in his father's darkroom-- his dad's hobby was photography, an outgrowth of his profession as a naturalist and doing television programs on nature and ornothology.
He came across (still to this day) unpublished color photographs of holocaust victims both dead and alive. The film had been given to his father by two friends who had been to a camp as it was liberated, and snapped the photos.
His dad never "fixed" the photos, as some have claimed was done. He simply developed them. This was not "staged" with dummies and stand-ins. This was real.
About a year ago, or less, one of the honor student groups at NK school went to some meeting where the speaker was a Holocaust Survivor. Jasmine told me that the way kids derided this frail old lady with ugly "questions" concerning their negative holocaust beliefs so badly that the lady cried.
Holy Cow. And this was about a year ago. Can't convince me that this is not a relevant topic.
And the idiots WON'T LET UP. They are like a starving dog with a little bit of putrid meat- won't let loose of it until they are stone, cold, dead.
In a way, I still can't understand it. What's the appeal of this? If the kids did this within the year, the belief must be still more than alive and well at Der Vey.
It would be fitting if Martinpuke had to spend the rest of his days as a janitor in one of those dreaded holocaust museums..
Put the whole TWIt staff and the TWIt kids on janitor duty with him!
HCW, I can't believe those kids did that! My heart breaks for that poor woman. As if she hadn't already been through enough.... :(-->
Yeah, that's a good witness for TWI. Sure would make me think I'd like to be a part of that group.....NOT!! Good for Jasmine! You must be so proud of her as well you should be. :D-->
Can you imagine how embarrassed and how stupid those kids are going to feel when/if they ever realize the truth? How much confidence are they going to have in their parents and TWI then?? Maybe that's not such a bad thing.
Mr. H, I was telling my therapist about these Holocaust threads and we discussed how and why we threw out so much credible information and knowledge we had before coming to TWI in order to believe what they told us.....
He loaned me a book called "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer, founder of George's favorite site http://www.skeptic.com.
There's a chapter entitled "Who says the Holocaust never happened, and why do they say it." and another entitled, "How do we know the holocaust Happened" and yet one more on "Pigeonholes and Continuums - an African-Greek-German-American Looks at Race"
I only got the book last night, but it looks very interesting and will contribute some of the authors thoughts as I get to peruse through it.
Can you imagine how embarrassed and how stupid those kids are going to feel when/if they ever realize the truth?
Good point. I know how stupid and embarrassed I was, for even just keeping quiet about this stuff.
Some countries have gone to the extreme of outlawing holocaust denial.
I don't exactly agree that this is the best route to take, mainly because I still hold to free speech, and think that all it produces is another "martyr" for the cause. but after looking at what its doing to these kids and others, it makes me wonder. I think education is probably the best fix for the problem.
Too bad ole Loy and staff stood in the way of that solution.
Too bad my dad died so young.. I later found out he was in the army, and witnessed a lot of this stuff.
Like a lot of the survivors, I think he just wanted to get on with his life, and he didn't make a big deal out of it. Maybe he thought I was too young to understand..
All I knew was for a long time he had a hard time sleeping.
Jasmine told me that the way kids derided this frail old lady with ugly "questions" concerning their negative holocaust beliefs so badly that the lady cried.
This is why we need to keep reminding people that the garbage TWI is promulgating is false, and wrong.
They are raising a whole new generation of vipers like themselves, who lack both compassion and conscience.
They'll be twice the children of hell that the previous generation was.
Well I will share with you a story that rocks my world.
I am a christian. At work I do not speak about my religion or"witness".
A assistant manager brags about her church quite a bit one day and the next she complains.. about it, she is a heavy duty gossip and has alot of opions about people and what she thinks. Hence my being more private than others about my life. In my opinion she is as unprofessional as they make them.
ok. anyways. I joined the jewish community center , the price is right the location is right and the facility is brand new. I was saying how much fun the water excersize classes were one day and this girl naturaly started her in depth questioning, she is very nasty and nearly everything a person says to her she will twist and gossip or find something bad to say about it.
So she says why did you join the JCC ? ARE YOU jewish?
As stated I am very careful how I speak to this woman .. one time she went on and on about how her dead mother comes to her in her dreams and tells her what to do and I do not believe in such things so I simply said "I have no coment" she is persistent and demands to know why? I had to tell her I do not beleive it is possible for dead people to speak to the living through dreams or vioces. she got angry. (as stupid as she is that must be "one of the jewish beliefs she said, I said I am not sure and exited the conversation)
so now Im the office "jew" yes Im a christian and they do not know it , so I played it out for kicks to see if I would learn something .
I did learn and I learned probably the biggest lesson I have saw in many many years. I FEEL it and I live it everyday.
christians who think they have all the corner on truth can and do hate jews.
this is so hard to explain, IM white middle class so I can honestly say I never can relate to being a minority truly because I have never been one.
Now I am . It is a hate just because of what you believe about God. Has nothing to do with anything eles. A type of lesser than because you do not believe right. (like everyone should)
an arrogance. an attitude of self righteousness and dismissing of your personhood.
in the name of knowing Jesus christ as LORD.
honestly it is real it is a hate .
The more serious a christian would be in getting the "good" news" of the gospel out to save the world the more you feel and live and see the reaction when they think your a jew.
Like your a hopeless case and not to be trusted.
I have a very dificult time expressing to you in words the difference in the manner people will deal with ya speak to ya, make assinine assuptions and say very hurtful things.
all because they think your jewish.
But I will tell you this has been one of my biggest lesson in life.
ever.
it is real. hate for jews are justified because some who think they know God have attitude of glory and power "we" just couldnt know so it is easy to be dismissed.
Honestly it frightens me, this inner hate.
I never would have noticed the way it is if I had not turned into a jew at work and have them relate to me as such.
Im treated differently since they found out. really. it is frightening. It is real in our society as real as any racist attitude.
It is even more accepted because unlike skin color or sex, it has that favorite we know better and of course the truth,ie God almight is on our side flair to it.
the appeal is arrogance, it is self righteousness, it is knowing the truth and they do not. bottom line the appeal is this.
God doesnt love the jews. because they deny jesus as LORD.
so we can hate them too. and they do.
As a christian I have honestly felt it to my bones. comments, assuming dismissing and general disregard as a people.
Im not a christian jew nor do I deny Jesus as LORD , I find it more than ironic I may know more bible verses in the new testiment by heart than all of them put together...
HCW, good for Jasmine! I'm a little shocked that those kids would do that. My son was raised mostly in twi, but he didn't buy a lot of things twi was sellin', and as he got into his older teens he didn't want much to do with twi. (Smart kid I raised :)-->)
What's up with THESE kids? Don't they know it's the time in their lives when they're supposed to spread their own wings and rebel a little bit??
I'm also a little surprised that NK school has become progressive enough to invite a holocaust survivor to speak. When my son went there 20 years ago, that never would have happened. Sounds like the school has changed for the better.
The "no holocaust" line was something I didn't swallow even when I was "in." I admit that I did buy the "they're not really Jews" BS, but despite that I always figured, "I don't care if it was 6 million Jews, or 3 million Jews and 3 million Russians, or 0 Jews and 6 million Russians, a whole lot of innocent people were tortured and killed, and that's reprehensible."
There was way too much right-wing extremism in VPW, and consequently too much of that influence on twi in general. I knew a couple John Birchers back when I was in, but I always assumed they were EX John Birchers and how cool it was that they'd "gotten delivered," just as I'd "gotten delivered" from the left-wing extremes of my youth. Now I know I was just naive!
mj, your experience at work reminds me of a book I read in the 60s, Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin.
Here's an excerpt from snopes.com:
In 1959, after shaving his head and using drugs and ultraviolet light to darken his skin, Griffin spent six weeks travelling through the states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia posing as an itinerant black man in order to record a first-hand account of the virulent racism still prevalent in the Deep South. Griffin's account of his experiences, published as the book Black Like Me in 1961, is a gripping tale of degradation and cruelty — an account of a man who becomes the target of rudeness, indignities, insults, racial slurs, and violent threats, and is denied the basic necessities of life — a place to live, work, transportation, even the use of restrooms — simply because his skin is dark. Particularly revealing experiences came at the end of Griffin's investigation when he switched back and forth between his black and white identities and observed the negative reactions he received from people (both black and white) who had treated him kindly just days — or even hours — earlier.
The reason that's on snopes is that there's an urban legend that Griffin died of cancer as a result of the treatments he took to change his skin's pigmentation.
Anyway, mj, I'll bet if you read that book, you'd find that your experineces are very similar to, though not as extreme as, his. The hate and prejudice underlying people's racism are the same.
gosh i almost hate to say this BUT if you are white,middle class in america your are a minority!!!!!!!i know Gods loves us ALL but perhaps it's being taken a little over the edge. politacal correct is just not in my vocabulary
this experience has brought me closer than ever to prayer and my own thoughts on how we think.
I reread my hasty post(I wrote that before work and was in a hurry) and realize I may have given the impression I work in a vile awful place, NO I do not, I work in a place that caters to the general public and is heavy customer service . I now believe these undertones are much more common than any of us christians would like to admit, only because it is so very suble , at times ya know they try to relate to my being "different". this is the worst of all .
Because Im strong and have had people I thought agreed with me on who God is and what He means to my life turn on me like rabid dogs when I was marked.. I am ok. I never would have felt this if it had not been those strange turn of events, with me joining the JCC.
I do not think it is about political correctnes as much as really the issues I described above, of course it isnt said out loud, it is used as a bullet in conversations amoung the real believer ie christians at work and I am now easy understood on many fronts!
Oh it must be because Im jewish! yeah must be! lol .
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Catcup
Absolutely.
Catcup
This was exactly my experience. I sat in the same meetings and heard Martindale make the same exclamation: That the Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apache Indians. And yes, the Holocaust wa
Catcup
A slippery slope indeed, Tref.
Posted Images
Trefor Heywood
Another influence on Hitler was Richard Wagner, not merely because Hitler loved the music (as I do) but because Wagner's writings fell in very much with Nazi ideas.
Here is an example..
There is also some interesting stuff about Kaiser Wilhelm II's antisemitism which got worse during his years of exile.
Perhaps Luther, Wagner and Wilhelm would have been staggered at the results their influence produced but they nevertheless helped to point the way.
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HCW
What gives Holocaust denial such an appeal?
Nothing, absolutely nothing. There is no real appeal.
Denying the existence of, or reducing the significance of the Holocaust is like saying the 400 years of slavery in North America was an African Study Abroad Work Program.
About 18 months ago I stood inside the Elmina Slave Castle in the city of Elmina in Ghana, West Africa. It is the largest of the slave castles on the coast of W. Africa. Over 80% of all of the African captives bound for the Americas left from the shores of Ghana... "and about 70% of them left from here, Elmina Castle..."
As our tour guide spoke I drifted off into an indescribable rollercoaster of thoughts, emotions and an almost trancelike state. It was as if the guide's words transported me back into time and I could "see and hear" the events he spoke of happening all around me.
When you stand "there" yourself, where it happened and you care, God takes you there - - then. You "experience" it vicariously via the ones who speak to you of it. I "see" shadows on the walls, hear the murmuring of the croud, the angry shouts, the screams of children in different languages calling, "Mommy, Daddy!" when they inevitable got separated in the mass of humanity the guards herded forward through gates and narrow doorways.
Looking down I could imagine and "feel" the pain of the scrapes I'd get for falling or scuffing my knees & elbows on the rough brick walls and floors. I could "smell" the blood mixed with the body odor, the stench of urine and excrement along with the sweet, salty ocean air; "feel" the heat of the sun. This place is unimaginably beautiful! Paradise. The contrast of the life giving, awesomely soothing, healing beauty of paradise butted against the hellacious, sheer horror of chained captivity. Combined with the inevitable deaths, injury, murder, rape and humilation of being de-humanized to the point where I was less the most expendable or property....
The walls of my sanity were being breeched.
I'm sure Zshot and Sunesis would agree of the overwhelming nature of the experience. Indescribable. "You just had to be there..." is such an understatement. Physically "connecting" with (seeing the tatoo, standing in the spot, etc.) it helps so much to connect with the event, making it an undeniable reality to you.
Feeling the heat of the sun, hearing the waves crash on the shore, smelling the salty air, feeling the breeze taking in the awesome beauty outside the walls and contrasting it with the sheer horror of what was happening inside helped me to "pseudo gnosko" the fact that the people who survived that were HEROES. The nature of the experience was that it was UN-survivable .
Same goes for Holocaust survivors, the survivors had to be among the strongest, (mentally & physically), healthiest, most fortunate and most blessed of all. They deserve nothing less than our best. Our highest praise and adulation is the LEAST we can do for them. The INTENT of their experience was that NONE of them would survive.
I, for the first time in my then 45 years of life, understood the true significance of their survival. They literally "walked through the valley of the shadow of death." The Holocaust survivors don't speak much of their experiences partly because the grace involved with their survival is so incredible they have no words to describe it. There are none.
To have the least desire to discredit them in any way shape or form is to own the highest degree of human arrogance and overblown ego available to mankind. The only appeal is to feed one's own arrogance and cultivate one's own ego.
Period.
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HCW
I vaguely remember my daughter talking to me about something like that. Part of the end result of it was that NK folks are more sure than ever that TWI folks are crazy.
About a year ago, or less, one of the honor student groups at NK school went to some meeting where the speaker was a Holocaust Survivor. Jasmine told me that the way kids derided this frail old lady with ugly "questions" concerning their negative holocaust beliefs so badly that the lady cried. Jasmine told me she had to SCREAM at the way kids who were doing this before they would stop. She started out tactfully saying things to back them off then it escalated to the point where Jasmine pulled rank as their class president and ORDERED them to STOP IT!
Jaz was incensed, the lady never finished the presentation. Jaz reported to the school administration what happened. She also gave the speaker an official apology on behalf of the school for the ugly conduct of the students.
Yes. Anti-holocaust thinking is a slippery slope to the SAME hatred the NAZI's owned.
Idiots.
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excathedra
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HCW
Yeah. And they say The Way is not dangerous.
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Out There
My Good friend and climbing partner is a Public TV Producer. He last year did a documentary on Aushwitz. From his view there was no way this could not have happened. There was no lieing involved and the horrors of the camp were worse than what the public has ever been told.
all TWI did by denying that the holocaust ever happened was to dishonor those whose lives were lost at the hands of the nazis. After what was told to me I have nothing but respect for the people whom the holocaust affected. Did anyone ever stop to think of how many heros there were during the time of the concentation camps. There were many who laid down thier lives for others. It was a time a tragedy and a time of heroism. They should get our honor and respect
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Catcup
As a little boy, my husband was nosing around in his father's darkroom-- his dad's hobby was photography, an outgrowth of his profession as a naturalist and doing television programs on nature and ornothology.
He came across (still to this day) unpublished color photographs of holocaust victims both dead and alive. The film had been given to his father by two friends who had been to a camp as it was liberated, and snapped the photos.
His dad never "fixed" the photos, as some have claimed was done. He simply developed them. This was not "staged" with dummies and stand-ins. This was real.
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Ham
Holy Cow. And this was about a year ago. Can't convince me that this is not a relevant topic.
And the idiots WON'T LET UP. They are like a starving dog with a little bit of putrid meat- won't let loose of it until they are stone, cold, dead.
In a way, I still can't understand it. What's the appeal of this? If the kids did this within the year, the belief must be still more than alive and well at Der Vey.
Some "witness" for the Lord Jesus Christ. Ptooie.
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Ham
In all honesty, I think the term "Nazi" is very appropriate. In every way.
Why not call it what it is?
It looks Nazi, feels Nazi, smells like Nazi, talks like Nazi, it must BE Nazi.
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Belle
Put the whole TWIt staff and the TWIt kids on janitor duty with him!
HCW, I can't believe those kids did that! My heart breaks for that poor woman. As if she hadn't already been through enough....
:(-->
Yeah, that's a good witness for TWI. Sure would make me think I'd like to be a part of that group.....NOT!! Good for Jasmine! You must be so proud of her as well you should be.
:D-->
Can you imagine how embarrassed and how stupid those kids are going to feel when/if they ever realize the truth? How much confidence are they going to have in their parents and TWI then?? Maybe that's not such a bad thing.
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Belle
Mr. H, I was telling my therapist about these Holocaust threads and we discussed how and why we threw out so much credible information and knowledge we had before coming to TWI in order to believe what they told us.....
He loaned me a book called "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer, founder of George's favorite site http://www.skeptic.com.
There's a chapter entitled "Who says the Holocaust never happened, and why do they say it." and another entitled, "How do we know the holocaust Happened" and yet one more on "Pigeonholes and Continuums - an African-Greek-German-American Looks at Race"
I only got the book last night, but it looks very interesting and will contribute some of the authors thoughts as I get to peruse through it.
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Ham
Good point. I know how stupid and embarrassed I was, for even just keeping quiet about this stuff.
Some countries have gone to the extreme of outlawing holocaust denial.
I don't exactly agree that this is the best route to take, mainly because I still hold to free speech, and think that all it produces is another "martyr" for the cause. but after looking at what its doing to these kids and others, it makes me wonder. I think education is probably the best fix for the problem.
Too bad ole Loy and staff stood in the way of that solution.
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Ham
Too bad my dad died so young.. I later found out he was in the army, and witnessed a lot of this stuff.
Like a lot of the survivors, I think he just wanted to get on with his life, and he didn't make a big deal out of it. Maybe he thought I was too young to understand..
All I knew was for a long time he had a hard time sleeping.
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Catcup
This is why we need to keep reminding people that the garbage TWI is promulgating is false, and wrong.
They are raising a whole new generation of vipers like themselves, who lack both compassion and conscience.
They'll be twice the children of hell that the previous generation was.
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Ham
Absolutely.
Staff:
Think you have history so "rightly divided"? Go ahead and raise them like this. Wait till you see what they will do to you.
With this Nazi belief, the old, the sick, the feeble- are EXPENDABLE.
And you WILL be.
Look at what "they" did to Mrs. Wierwille.
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mj412
Well I will share with you a story that rocks my world.
I am a christian. At work I do not speak about my religion or"witness".
A assistant manager brags about her church quite a bit one day and the next she complains.. about it, she is a heavy duty gossip and has alot of opions about people and what she thinks. Hence my being more private than others about my life. In my opinion she is as unprofessional as they make them.
ok. anyways. I joined the jewish community center , the price is right the location is right and the facility is brand new. I was saying how much fun the water excersize classes were one day and this girl naturaly started her in depth questioning, she is very nasty and nearly everything a person says to her she will twist and gossip or find something bad to say about it.
So she says why did you join the JCC ? ARE YOU jewish?
As stated I am very careful how I speak to this woman .. one time she went on and on about how her dead mother comes to her in her dreams and tells her what to do and I do not believe in such things so I simply said "I have no coment" she is persistent and demands to know why? I had to tell her I do not beleive it is possible for dead people to speak to the living through dreams or vioces. she got angry. (as stupid as she is that must be "one of the jewish beliefs she said, I said I am not sure and exited the conversation)
so now Im the office "jew" yes Im a christian and they do not know it , so I played it out for kicks to see if I would learn something .
I did learn and I learned probably the biggest lesson I have saw in many many years. I FEEL it and I live it everyday.
christians who think they have all the corner on truth can and do hate jews.
this is so hard to explain, IM white middle class so I can honestly say I never can relate to being a minority truly because I have never been one.
Now I am . It is a hate just because of what you believe about God. Has nothing to do with anything eles. A type of lesser than because you do not believe right. (like everyone should)
an arrogance. an attitude of self righteousness and dismissing of your personhood.
in the name of knowing Jesus christ as LORD.
honestly it is real it is a hate .
The more serious a christian would be in getting the "good" news" of the gospel out to save the world the more you feel and live and see the reaction when they think your a jew.
Like your a hopeless case and not to be trusted.
I have a very dificult time expressing to you in words the difference in the manner people will deal with ya speak to ya, make assinine assuptions and say very hurtful things.
all because they think your jewish.
But I will tell you this has been one of my biggest lesson in life.
ever.
it is real. hate for jews are justified because some who think they know God have attitude of glory and power "we" just couldnt know so it is easy to be dismissed.
Honestly it frightens me, this inner hate.
I never would have noticed the way it is if I had not turned into a jew at work and have them relate to me as such.
Im treated differently since they found out. really. it is frightening. It is real in our society as real as any racist attitude.
It is even more accepted because unlike skin color or sex, it has that favorite we know better and of course the truth,ie God almight is on our side flair to it.
the appeal is arrogance, it is self righteousness, it is knowing the truth and they do not. bottom line the appeal is this.
God doesnt love the jews. because they deny jesus as LORD.
so we can hate them too. and they do.
As a christian I have honestly felt it to my bones. comments, assuming dismissing and general disregard as a people.
Im not a christian jew nor do I deny Jesus as LORD , I find it more than ironic I may know more bible verses in the new testiment by heart than all of them put together...
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Linda Z
HCW, good for Jasmine! I'm a little shocked that those kids would do that. My son was raised mostly in twi, but he didn't buy a lot of things twi was sellin', and as he got into his older teens he didn't want much to do with twi. (Smart kid I raised
:)-->)
What's up with THESE kids? Don't they know it's the time in their lives when they're supposed to spread their own wings and rebel a little bit??
I'm also a little surprised that NK school has become progressive enough to invite a holocaust survivor to speak. When my son went there 20 years ago, that never would have happened. Sounds like the school has changed for the better.
The "no holocaust" line was something I didn't swallow even when I was "in." I admit that I did buy the "they're not really Jews" BS, but despite that I always figured, "I don't care if it was 6 million Jews, or 3 million Jews and 3 million Russians, or 0 Jews and 6 million Russians, a whole lot of innocent people were tortured and killed, and that's reprehensible."
There was way too much right-wing extremism in VPW, and consequently too much of that influence on twi in general. I knew a couple John Birchers back when I was in, but I always assumed they were EX John Birchers and how cool it was that they'd "gotten delivered," just as I'd "gotten delivered" from the left-wing extremes of my youth. Now I know I was just naive!
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Linda Z
mj, your experience at work reminds me of a book I read in the 60s, Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin.
Here's an excerpt from snopes.com:
In 1959, after shaving his head and using drugs and ultraviolet light to darken his skin, Griffin spent six weeks travelling through the states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia posing as an itinerant black man in order to record a first-hand account of the virulent racism still prevalent in the Deep South. Griffin's account of his experiences, published as the book Black Like Me in 1961, is a gripping tale of degradation and cruelty — an account of a man who becomes the target of rudeness, indignities, insults, racial slurs, and violent threats, and is denied the basic necessities of life — a place to live, work, transportation, even the use of restrooms — simply because his skin is dark. Particularly revealing experiences came at the end of Griffin's investigation when he switched back and forth between his black and white identities and observed the negative reactions he received from people (both black and white) who had treated him kindly just days — or even hours — earlier.
*****************************************************************************
The reason that's on snopes is that there's an urban legend that Griffin died of cancer as a result of the treatments he took to change his skin's pigmentation.
Anyway, mj, I'll bet if you read that book, you'd find that your experineces are very similar to, though not as extreme as, his. The hate and prejudice underlying people's racism are the same.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
gosh i almost hate to say this BUT if you are white,middle class in america your are a minority!!!!!!!i know Gods loves us ALL but perhaps it's being taken a little over the edge. politacal correct is just not in my vocabulary
sorry
whoops no i am not
remember God loves us all saint and sinner alike
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
linda
i have the book black like me
a great one
but ino that was then this is now
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mj412
this experience has brought me closer than ever to prayer and my own thoughts on how we think.
I reread my hasty post(I wrote that before work and was in a hurry) and realize I may have given the impression I work in a vile awful place, NO I do not, I work in a place that caters to the general public and is heavy customer service . I now believe these undertones are much more common than any of us christians would like to admit, only because it is so very suble , at times ya know they try to relate to my being "different". this is the worst of all .
Because Im strong and have had people I thought agreed with me on who God is and what He means to my life turn on me like rabid dogs when I was marked.. I am ok. I never would have felt this if it had not been those strange turn of events, with me joining the JCC.
I do not think it is about political correctnes as much as really the issues I described above, of course it isnt said out loud, it is used as a bullet in conversations amoung the real believer ie christians at work and I am now easy understood on many fronts!
Oh it must be because Im jewish! yeah must be! lol .
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i hope i am not missing the whole point
per haps i am
i just believe that we are all loved in God's heart even me
imagine that!
but i KNOW it and will till my death. you know it is if you have 1 kid or ten you love them all!
some times you can break thier hearts and they can break yours but you always love them
just like God does
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excathedra
i hope we raise our kids better than we've been raised....
or i should say i hope i raise my kid better than i've been raised
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Ham
I'm sure you will (are) Exie.
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