You and CM seem to want to set what the Bible says in some other universe, in which words that mean something and make perfect sense in the Biblical universe mean anything one wishes, or nothing at all, and make little sense in their original context.
Nope not at all, but a flaming Sword that turns EVERY way.
The intention of the author is hidden to those who do not seek it's spiritual realities which are are very real in any universe.
And thanks Danny-a bit narrow minded myself at times. And punchy when what is so obvious to me escapes the mind of others when i thought I laid things out rather plainly. But I do not know the hearts of men and women. One does and I seek his heart to further communicate and clarify so the listener could at least get something from what I wrote.
***POsted by Abigail - sorry didn't realize 1000Names had been posting this morning***
LG, for someone who states they do not believe, you sure are defensive of your interpretation of the Bible. I would have expected, and understood, such a stance from some of our more religious friends around the cafe, but not from someone who doesn't believe what it says anyway.
I don't view the Bible as something literally penned by God. I view it as a somewhat historical document penned by men and written from man's perspective. Much is subject to interpretation.
Much has been left out for political/religious reasons. For example, the Catholic Bible has books the KJV does not. Likewise, the Jewish people have additional books they view in a religious content. The Muslem's though sharing a smilar background have gone in yet another direction.
For the life of me, I don't understand why someone would get so upset about people discussing different possibilities regarding what something means, or what actually occured. It is good to think outside the box. It is good to consider other perspectivies and possibilities.
"Although Judaism offers much insight, so do many other religions. Eastern ones most especially."
Agreed. I have studied some of Eastern religion, as well as Native American. Judaism just happens to be what I've been looking into most recently, so it is what comes to the forefront of my mind.
"What Adam did resulted in death for all. Of which Jesus Christ redeemed Adam and the rest of mankind by what he did."
Was it his death that redeemed us? Or his example? Are we literally redeemed right here and now or is redemption in some way hinged upon how we live our lives in this one or at some future time?
The questions could be endless. I have very few if any answers, but many many questions and thoughts to consider.
"Romans 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Again, was it his death that brought this about? Or his example via his life and teachings that NOTHING (not even our own error) can separate us from the love of God. In o5her word, faith. Faith in Gods love for us, His forgiveness towards us.
"8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement"
And again and again - was it literally his blood, his death? Or was it always that we had atonement but just didn't know it - just didn't "receive it" because we didn't know we could?
"12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come"
Was it literally Adam's sin that brought death into the world, or is it "sin conciousness", i.e. guilt that brings about death?
When Adam "ate of the fruit" he didn't seem bothered by it until he got "caught". Then what does it say he felt? Ashamed!
And what is the gift we receive through Jesus?
"the gift of righteousness shall reign in life "
Sounds like the opposite of guilt and shame.
Perhaps the real accomplishment of Jesus is not that he died but WHAT HE TAUGHT? Forgiveness, the realization that we are all human and we all blow it. That there is no shame in being human and that God forgives us, as He created us this way, and so we too should forgive ourselves and each other.
To me, this is not a mystical thing, it is just common sense.
Abigail, I was trying to be nice in my last response to you. The truth is that I found your insinuation that I was representing myself to know more than I do to be contemptible. I find your claim that I am defensive about my interpretation of the Bible and your implicaton that I am or was upset about "people discussing different possibilities regarding what something means, or what actually occurred" to be just as contemptible. CM didn't irritate me, because he was straightforward. You are not, your little game does irritate me, and that irritation has nothing to do with anyone's interpretation of the Bible.
Was it his death that redeemed us? Or his example? Are we literally redeemed right here and now or is redemption in some way hinged upon how we live our lives in this one or at some future time?
It is already done, some just don't see it yet, and continue as if it wasn't.
His death redeemed us-his example is one to follow, although his example is a mixture of many things. All that was known was in Christ.
Again, was it his death that brought this about? Or his example via his life and teachings that NOTHING (not even our own error) can separate us from the love of God. In o5her word, faith. Faith in Gods love for us, His forgiveness towards us.
Both, and to further expand upon it-his teachings have been around a long time even before his physical birth. Jesus Christ put it together because he became (not born by physical birth) one with the Father by spiritual birth and continueing within it. Which is also accessable to us, for God is no respector of persons. But Jesus the Christ did it and God gave him a name which is above every name. And we are proud that he calls us brothers and sisters to himself.
Was it literally Adam's sin that brought death into the world, or is it "sin conciousness", i.e. guilt that brings about death?
When Adam "ate of the fruit" he didn't seem bothered by it until he got "caught". Then what does it say he felt? Ashamed!
He knew what he was doing and getting caught is auto matic since God lives within. And it doesn't say he was ashamed just that he hid himself.
Death was brought into the world because of failure to adhere to the tree of life.
"sin conciousness" will always be there to some degree because we are human and have not killed off the carnal man for good yet.
"sin conciousness" can not be there when within the spirit in order to bring about the miracles that we can do through Christ which strengthens us. The Spirit will burn it to a crisp and blow it away with the wind. That confidence in Christ and not ourselves is the key to unlocking the Mysteries of the universe. And bringing deliverance to those held captive by their own thoughts.
Perhaps the real accomplishment of Jesus is not that he died but WHAT HE TAUGHT? Forgiveness, the realization that we are all human and we all blow it. That there is no shame in being human and that God forgives us, as He created us this way, and so we too should forgive ourselves and each other.
Certainly what he taught will come to our spiritual understanding as we but live and love and grow and not get hung up on one thing or another. A progressive learning experience.
He died for a reason-not just to become a martyr. His death raised people from the dead-both past and present and future. Thus the end Of Adam's transgression and the results of it.
To me, this is not a mystical thing, it is just common sense.
common sense and love leads to a greater spiritual realization and understanding. Not as to what is on the surface of the scriptures but that which lives in the heart as the Word of Life. That which resides deeper then words in a book but the living epistle written in the heart. And to also mention that Love is the catalyst-the balance-the power with wich the truth can accomplish God's will. Without Love spiritual understanding can actual hurt people instead of help them. Because the leaven of selfish ego and other things redirect it's meaning.
When you talk of Jesus' death, I hope you don't think he is still dead. He lives! His resurrection proves all that he said was true. He has defeated death so those who believe in him will everlasting life.
You know what I think was the true miracle about Jesus?
Not his conception, not his death, and not even the resurrection. What was truly miraculous about Jesus was what he taught and his willingness to stand up for what he believed in. His willingness to go toe to toe with the religous leaders of his day. His willingness to love those who were shunned.
When you talk of Jesus' death, I hope you don't think he is still dead. He lives! His resurrection proves all that he said was true. He has defeated death so those who believe in him will everlasting life.
What does this have to do with the subject Def. You want to talk about his death and what it meant and means and what happened because of it. Come on lets talk.
Jesus of the flesh is dead. His soul and spirit is alive. Too much for you? He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
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Nope not at all, but a flaming Sword that turns EVERY way.
The intention of the author is hidden to those who do not seek it's spiritual realities which are are very real in any universe.
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CM
And thanks Danny-a bit narrow minded myself at times. And punchy when what is so obvious to me escapes the mind of others when i thought I laid things out rather plainly. But I do not know the hearts of men and women. One does and I seek his heart to further communicate and clarify so the listener could at least get something from what I wrote.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
***POsted by Abigail - sorry didn't realize 1000Names had been posting this morning***
LG, for someone who states they do not believe, you sure are defensive of your interpretation of the Bible. I would have expected, and understood, such a stance from some of our more religious friends around the cafe, but not from someone who doesn't believe what it says anyway.
I don't view the Bible as something literally penned by God. I view it as a somewhat historical document penned by men and written from man's perspective. Much is subject to interpretation.
Much has been left out for political/religious reasons. For example, the Catholic Bible has books the KJV does not. Likewise, the Jewish people have additional books they view in a religious content. The Muslem's though sharing a smilar background have gone in yet another direction.
For the life of me, I don't understand why someone would get so upset about people discussing different possibilities regarding what something means, or what actually occured. It is good to think outside the box. It is good to consider other perspectivies and possibilities.
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Abigail
CM,
"Although Judaism offers much insight, so do many other religions. Eastern ones most especially."
Agreed. I have studied some of Eastern religion, as well as Native American. Judaism just happens to be what I've been looking into most recently, so it is what comes to the forefront of my mind.
"What Adam did resulted in death for all. Of which Jesus Christ redeemed Adam and the rest of mankind by what he did."
Was it his death that redeemed us? Or his example? Are we literally redeemed right here and now or is redemption in some way hinged upon how we live our lives in this one or at some future time?
The questions could be endless. I have very few if any answers, but many many questions and thoughts to consider.
"Romans 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Again, was it his death that brought this about? Or his example via his life and teachings that NOTHING (not even our own error) can separate us from the love of God. In o5her word, faith. Faith in Gods love for us, His forgiveness towards us.
"8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement"
And again and again - was it literally his blood, his death? Or was it always that we had atonement but just didn't know it - just didn't "receive it" because we didn't know we could?
"12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come"
Was it literally Adam's sin that brought death into the world, or is it "sin conciousness", i.e. guilt that brings about death?
When Adam "ate of the fruit" he didn't seem bothered by it until he got "caught". Then what does it say he felt? Ashamed!
And what is the gift we receive through Jesus?
"the gift of righteousness shall reign in life "
Sounds like the opposite of guilt and shame.
Perhaps the real accomplishment of Jesus is not that he died but WHAT HE TAUGHT? Forgiveness, the realization that we are all human and we all blow it. That there is no shame in being human and that God forgives us, as He created us this way, and so we too should forgive ourselves and each other.
To me, this is not a mystical thing, it is just common sense.
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LG
Abigail, I was trying to be nice in my last response to you. The truth is that I found your insinuation that I was representing myself to know more than I do to be contemptible. I find your claim that I am defensive about my interpretation of the Bible and your implicaton that I am or was upset about "people discussing different possibilities regarding what something means, or what actually occurred" to be just as contemptible. CM didn't irritate me, because he was straightforward. You are not, your little game does irritate me, and that irritation has nothing to do with anyone's interpretation of the Bible.
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CM
It is already done, some just don't see it yet, and continue as if it wasn't.
His death redeemed us-his example is one to follow, although his example is a mixture of many things. All that was known was in Christ.
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CM
Both, and to further expand upon it-his teachings have been around a long time even before his physical birth. Jesus Christ put it together because he became (not born by physical birth) one with the Father by spiritual birth and continueing within it. Which is also accessable to us, for God is no respector of persons. But Jesus the Christ did it and God gave him a name which is above every name. And we are proud that he calls us brothers and sisters to himself.
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CM
He knew what he was doing and getting caught is auto matic since God lives within. And it doesn't say he was ashamed just that he hid himself.
Death was brought into the world because of failure to adhere to the tree of life.
"sin conciousness" will always be there to some degree because we are human and have not killed off the carnal man for good yet.
"sin conciousness" can not be there when within the spirit in order to bring about the miracles that we can do through Christ which strengthens us. The Spirit will burn it to a crisp and blow it away with the wind. That confidence in Christ and not ourselves is the key to unlocking the Mysteries of the universe. And bringing deliverance to those held captive by their own thoughts.
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CM
The birth of the Spirit within which some attained even before Jesus' sacrifice. Such is the grace of God.
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CM
Certainly what he taught will come to our spiritual understanding as we but live and love and grow and not get hung up on one thing or another. A progressive learning experience.
He died for a reason-not just to become a martyr. His death raised people from the dead-both past and present and future. Thus the end Of Adam's transgression and the results of it.
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CM
Damn straight-the shame comes when we know the truth and reject it. And I mean really know it and let it solidify in our souls.
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CM
common sense and love leads to a greater spiritual realization and understanding. Not as to what is on the surface of the scriptures but that which lives in the heart as the Word of Life. That which resides deeper then words in a book but the living epistle written in the heart. And to also mention that Love is the catalyst-the balance-the power with wich the truth can accomplish God's will. Without Love spiritual understanding can actual hurt people instead of help them. Because the leaven of selfish ego and other things redirect it's meaning.
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CM
All and I mean all period have Life today. No exceptions. Because of what Jesus the Christ did.
Some choose to see it differently. There mistake. Bacause it will manifest itself in due time.
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CM
hmmmm-is that enough posts in a row?
I can think of more when given the time.
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def59
When you talk of Jesus' death, I hope you don't think he is still dead. He lives! His resurrection proves all that he said was true. He has defeated death so those who believe in him will everlasting life.
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CM
not trying to be a smartass in my last post
abigail...
:)-->
just a poor joke...
seems there ain't too many interested in this stuff anymore.
at one time many were, I still am though...
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Abigail
You know what I think was the true miracle about Jesus?
Not his conception, not his death, and not even the resurrection. What was truly miraculous about Jesus was what he taught and his willingness to stand up for what he believed in. His willingness to go toe to toe with the religous leaders of his day. His willingness to love those who were shunned.
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CM
What does this have to do with the subject Def. You want to talk about his death and what it meant and means and what happened because of it. Come on lets talk.
Jesus of the flesh is dead. His soul and spirit is alive. Too much for you? He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Our soul and spirit will live on also.
The dead are alive. The dust will return to dust.
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