1) Joseph was the father, in which case neither his thinking about how to put Mary away nor what the angel said makes sense.
How do figure that? If you don't mind answering.
I don't mind at all. If Joseph was the father, and cared about the law, Mary, or his own child, then he wouldn't have been considering putting her away. First, the law would have required him to marry her, even if they had not been planning on marrying before that. Second, men who care about women do right by them. In modern times, that would at least mean owning up to fatherhood and helping to support and raise the child. Two thousand years ago, that would mean marrying them. Third, men who care about the children they father, even if they don't care about the woman, don't abandon their children. Again, in modern times, they at least help to support and raise them. In biblical times, they'd marry the mother, if for no other reason than to avoid condemning the children to being bastards, which actually meant something back then.
quote:
Joseph and Mary had sex which made her pregnant before they were to be officially married.
The Bible doesn't say that. It says that, before she and Joseph came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
quote:
So Joseph was thinking about putting her away secretly so she wouldn't have to go thru the public scrutiny or consequences. I'd say that's love!
There wouldn't be any public scrutiny or consequences if he went ahead with the marriage. There'd be all sorts of consequences if she were pregnant but not married. If Joseph were the father, but put away his child and the mother of his child, that would be nothing like love. It would be cruel, and completely contrary to custom, as well as the laws of God. Putting her away privately could only be considered loving as an alternative to having her stoned for screwing around with another man while bethrothed to Joseph.
quote:
Then the angel appears and explains to Joseph what happened and what to do about it.
If Joseph had been the father, he'd have know what happened and what to do about it, which would have been to carry on with the marriage and love and support his wife and child.
quote:
The number 3 reasoning doesn't hold up to many other things in the scriptures. Like you must be born of water and spirit.
You're inventing a contradiction that doesn't exist. The Bible indicates that Jesus' conception was miraculous, but his birth was just like everyone else's.
quote:
Joseph and Mary was his fleshly parents and God was his spiritual Father when he was born spiritually. He was to be of the seed of David not God. Physical birth and spiritual birth.
Jesus said that God is able to raise up children of Abraham from stones. If that is so, then he would have no problem conceiving a child of the seed of David, without relying on a human father of David's lineage.
quote:
And there is absolutely no evidence to support number 2.
Never said there was. It's simply one of three possibilities, of which the only reasonable one is #3. There is, however, evidence that Joseph thought that another man must be the father, because if he didn't, then he wouldn't have been planning to put Mary away, either publicly or privately.
You may not have noticed that I am the one who started that discussion. It relates to Wierwille's unsupported claim that people thought that Jesus was illegitimate, which is contrary to what the Bible indicates. People thought that Joseph was Jesus' father. The Bible says that he was not (his literal, genetic father).
Believe what you want to. Putting Mary away does not mean in hiding forever. Just long enough for them to get by with it. It does not imply that he wasn't taking responsibility. And Joseph was only thinking about these things.
Why is it so hard to accept the Bible which says Jesus was God's son, not Joseph's. Even by the age of 12, Jesus knew who his father was and often talked of his intimate relationship with the Father.
We know that Jesus existed before his earthly birth and does not the Bible say Jesus was born of flesh and bone — not tainted blood?
Jesus was not born of the same flesh as us. He was fully man, sharing our limitations in our limited vessels. But he was also fully God, begotten of the Father.
He was able to be the perfect sacrifice because he did not carry around the curse with him like we do.
I get what you are trying to do. But I would propose that it is possible you do not know as much about the OT and the culture as you think you do. Especially if you are basing you knowledge on what TWI taught. You want a different and interesting perspective on the OT, study it from the perspective of the culture it came from - the Jews.
CM,
Most Jews do not believe in the concept of being "born in sin". I am not surprised you cannot find the "tainted blood" in the OT. Yes the sins of the fathers are passed on to the sons, but not through blood. It is simply a matter of cause and effect. The choices we make, the actions we take, usually effect not only ourselves, but those around us and especially those closest to us.
If I teach my children that candy is a healthy food, guess what they will grow up believing.
The term "born in sin" is not used in the bible anywhere. Therefore it is not a consideration. This is though and other parts of the scriptures-
Romans 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
What Adam did resulted in death for all. Of which Jesus Christ redeemed Adam and the rest of mankind by what he did.
Now rather then going round after round about what Adam's sin was. I am just thankful for what Jesus Christ did. Although I have a pretty good idea of what that sin was and meant. But this board cannot handle it right now.
The results of Adams sin was death-the worst possible consequence. Jesus Christ changed that by what he did and now life is here now for us and for all (all-meaning everyone-period)those that have lived and will live.
Although Judaism offers much insight, so do many other religions. Eastern ones most especially.
We are no longer alienated from the life of God that is IN us. As ephesians says - the enmity has been slain, broken down the middle wall that was between us and God-the enmity between the seed of the woman (which is not speaking of the human woman)and the seed of the serpent no longer exists. The Garden of God, The garden of Eden is in the mind and is there for those who seek it and Jesus Christ will appear a second time without sin unto salvation.
Jesus Christ will draw all men and women to himself. Some will be dragged to him. But there is no other choice. There is only One God, not two as we have been led to believe. Darkness shall turn to light.
Evil only exists when light is being hid. Light blinds those who believe not. And it's an illusion of evil cause when a closer look is taken spiritually it can be seen for what it is and for what is not.
The veil that is upon the heart will be taken away and the true light will shine...sooner or later...
God is the the one true God and Father-The Holy Spirit searchs God and man-The Son which is Christ is the revealer of that which the Holy Spirit is quite ready to reveal if one can take the truth which is not only carnal which is a shadow of the heavenly but that which is spiritual and gives understanding and light. Seemingly in contradiction to the physical and carnal thoughts, but not, for the carnal mind is against the promises of God yet the spiritual mind and mindedness will discover the secrets of the universal Christ who is one with God thru Jesus the Christ. Not at his physical birth as some believe, but at his spiritual birth and as he grew to know this Christ, God's Son, He bacame the Son of God, one with God, which is and will be manifest within each of us in time. And as part of the whole we are each gods with our own gifts and angels and heart to contribute.
Because it is within us, that which is ready to reveal and bring to life the true life of God, the Holy Spirit and His Son.
I get what you are trying to do. But I would propose that it is possible you do not know as much about the OT and the culture as you think you do. Especially if you are basing you knowledge on what TWI taught. You want a different and interesting perspective on the OT, study it from the perspective of the culture it came from - the Jews.
First, I don't base my knowledge of anything on what TWI taught. Second, if you disagree with anything I said, then say so. Don't toss out vague proposals of possibilities that could apply to everyone, including yourself and the most respected of Jewish scholars, but the liklihood of which you have no basis to assess.
Can you point out a single flaw in what I wrote?
Can you suggest any circumstances under which CM's suggestion makes a lick of sense?
"Don't toss out vague proposals of possibilities that could apply to everyone, including yourself and the most respected of Jewish scholars, but the liklihood of which you have no basis to assess."
I would never deny that they could apply to myself. I am still learning and have a long way to go.
"Can you suggest any circumstances under which CM's suggestion makes a lick of sense?"
I can suggest a circumstance which would suggest CM could very well be onto something that makes sense.
Throughout the OT, the Jews were always getting in trouble for worshipping goddesses. Even many years into Christianity, the fight to end goddess worship was still going.
In some sects/cultures, those who worshipped the goddess practiced rituals which involved having sex. In some sects/cultures, the children produced by those rituals were understood to be children of the gods. The men were not allowed to claim them as their own and it was said no man had a right to because no man could possibly know who fathered the child.
Now I don't know how far back these practices date, but it is entirely possible they date back to biblical times.
So, IF those rituals dated back to biblical times, it is possible that Mary had such a child and that Joseph and Mary both raised that child as a child of a god.
The origins of man have much to reveal on this subject though it had been buried in narrow minded thinking and previous thought patterns.
One God-three Gods in one-trinity, and other such speculation that only the Spirit can reveal if we have the patience and self control to let Christ open the flood gates of heaven. Because we must go there - it will not come to us unless we seek. Many have given up. Hopefully the love of the truth will be visited again.
Love will bring us to the point where God can work His perfect work, if fear does not stop us.
We are all children of God by physical birth. It's the spiritual birth that opens the eyes of spiritual understanding. Past the physical into the unseen and invisable things of God that he has prepared for us.
Spiritual truth will not only replace the physical but further clarify it into understanding beyond that which you can comprehend on your own. Selfish self righteousness will hold us back from that which The Lord longs to reveal at his coming which could be future or today.
So the Birth of Jesus has been misunderstood for many...why is birth so misunderstood when it happens all the time. There is no indiction that this one is any different then the others.
A baby being God Himself? Maybe some should grow in their own wisdom and understanding.
So stay with your views of Jesus being God at his physical birth, I have confidence in God that he will reveal in due time the truth of the matter. I am not trying to win anyone to anything but proposing things that have not been considered. And contrary to what some may think it did not originate in my thinking from searches on the internet. But a slow growing into truth and changing and transforming. Isn't this what the scriptures speak about? Or is it just a toy to play with at our convenience.
Whoa, and I thought I was the only one in the world today experiencing a certain existential, on-the-edge grumpiness.Unless everyone else here also made the mistake of starting out their day with a cup of java polluted with Land-of-Lakes "Non-Dairy" coffee creamer. My God, that stuff tastes like sh!#, leaving the lingering aftertaste of a dried toad.
I enjoy the Bible as literature. Like other good literature, it makes sense, within its "universe." I can enjoy discussing it within that universe, even though I don't think that universe corresponds very well with reality. You and CM seem to want to set what the Bible says in some other universe, in which words that mean something and make perfect sense in the Biblical universe mean anything one wishes, or nothing at all, and make little sense in their original context. That's fine, but I have little to contribute to such a discussion, so I'll bow out.
Whoa, and I thought I was the only one in the world today experiencing a certain existential, on-the-edge grumpiness.Unless everyone else here also made the mistake of starting out their day with a cup of java polluted with Land-of-Lakes "Non-Dairy" coffee creamer. My God, that stuff tastes like sh!#, leaving the lingering aftertaste of a dried toad.
I can't wait until Monday.
Please clarify who you are speaking of Danny. If I have offended please let me know. This not my intention at all.
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CM
Here's a link to a previous discussion that could add some light to this subject for some.
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/2...2726097291/p/12
from page 12 and the following 1 or 2 pages...
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LG
I don't mind at all. If Joseph was the father, and cared about the law, Mary, or his own child, then he wouldn't have been considering putting her away. First, the law would have required him to marry her, even if they had not been planning on marrying before that. Second, men who care about women do right by them. In modern times, that would at least mean owning up to fatherhood and helping to support and raise the child. Two thousand years ago, that would mean marrying them. Third, men who care about the children they father, even if they don't care about the woman, don't abandon their children. Again, in modern times, they at least help to support and raise them. In biblical times, they'd marry the mother, if for no other reason than to avoid condemning the children to being bastards, which actually meant something back then.
The Bible doesn't say that. It says that, before she and Joseph came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.There wouldn't be any public scrutiny or consequences if he went ahead with the marriage. There'd be all sorts of consequences if she were pregnant but not married. If Joseph were the father, but put away his child and the mother of his child, that would be nothing like love. It would be cruel, and completely contrary to custom, as well as the laws of God. Putting her away privately could only be considered loving as an alternative to having her stoned for screwing around with another man while bethrothed to Joseph.If Joseph had been the father, he'd have know what happened and what to do about it, which would have been to carry on with the marriage and love and support his wife and child.You're inventing a contradiction that doesn't exist. The Bible indicates that Jesus' conception was miraculous, but his birth was just like everyone else's.Jesus said that God is able to raise up children of Abraham from stones. If that is so, then he would have no problem conceiving a child of the seed of David, without relying on a human father of David's lineage. Never said there was. It's simply one of three possibilities, of which the only reasonable one is #3. There is, however, evidence that Joseph thought that another man must be the father, because if he didn't, then he wouldn't have been planning to put Mary away, either publicly or privately.Link to comment
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LG
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CM
Believe what you want to. Putting Mary away does not mean in hiding forever. Just long enough for them to get by with it. It does not imply that he wasn't taking responsibility. And Joseph was only thinking about these things.
Being in the Spirit is miraculous-every time.
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def59
Why is it so hard to accept the Bible which says Jesus was God's son, not Joseph's. Even by the age of 12, Jesus knew who his father was and often talked of his intimate relationship with the Father.
We know that Jesus existed before his earthly birth and does not the Bible say Jesus was born of flesh and bone — not tainted blood?
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CM
that which is flesh is of the flesh
that which is spirit is of the spirit
what really was he talking about
existing before he was born
why are a lot of things hard to accept
the invisable things of him before the
foundations of the world
upside down, backwards
and inside out
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TheInvisibleDan
God forbid that the flesh of any master race should have "tainted blood" coursing through its veins.
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LG
What you suggest indicates that you don't understand what you read in Matthew and Luke, the culture, or Old Testament law.
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CM
the law was made for man not man for the law
God supersedes the Law
yet stays within it
smart he is....
and the culture was not
a stop to what God had in mind
your understanding of it comes from where?
from God?
from the scriptures?
from the myths?
the law is for the lawless
God will not stop the
spiritual or the physical
from happening
take what you see with your eyes
and feed it to the heart while
loving someone and see what holds up
the inner heart sees more
then it's given credit for
hidden away to be seen in due time and times...
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CM
Yeah...Danny-the blood thing is a tricky one..
Funny where we learned this angle-
Cause I can't find the darn thing in the scriptures!!
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def59
Jesus was not born of the same flesh as us. He was fully man, sharing our limitations in our limited vessels. But he was also fully God, begotten of the Father.
He was able to be the perfect sacrifice because he did not carry around the curse with him like we do.
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CM
def-
continue to separate yourself from Jesus Christ
and you will continue to separate yourself from Jesus Christ
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Abigail
LG,
I get what you are trying to do. But I would propose that it is possible you do not know as much about the OT and the culture as you think you do. Especially if you are basing you knowledge on what TWI taught. You want a different and interesting perspective on the OT, study it from the perspective of the culture it came from - the Jews.
CM,
Most Jews do not believe in the concept of being "born in sin". I am not surprised you cannot find the "tainted blood" in the OT. Yes the sins of the fathers are passed on to the sons, but not through blood. It is simply a matter of cause and effect. The choices we make, the actions we take, usually effect not only ourselves, but those around us and especially those closest to us.
If I teach my children that candy is a healthy food, guess what they will grow up believing.
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CM
Hi Abigail
The term "born in sin" is not used in the bible anywhere. Therefore it is not a consideration. This is though and other parts of the scriptures-
Romans 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
What Adam did resulted in death for all. Of which Jesus Christ redeemed Adam and the rest of mankind by what he did.
Now rather then going round after round about what Adam's sin was. I am just thankful for what Jesus Christ did. Although I have a pretty good idea of what that sin was and meant. But this board cannot handle it right now.
The results of Adams sin was death-the worst possible consequence. Jesus Christ changed that by what he did and now life is here now for us and for all (all-meaning everyone-period)those that have lived and will live.
Although Judaism offers much insight, so do many other religions. Eastern ones most especially.
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CM
We are no longer alienated from the life of God that is IN us. As ephesians says - the enmity has been slain, broken down the middle wall that was between us and God-the enmity between the seed of the woman (which is not speaking of the human woman)and the seed of the serpent no longer exists. The Garden of God, The garden of Eden is in the mind and is there for those who seek it and Jesus Christ will appear a second time without sin unto salvation.
Jesus Christ will draw all men and women to himself. Some will be dragged to him. But there is no other choice. There is only One God, not two as we have been led to believe. Darkness shall turn to light.
Evil only exists when light is being hid. Light blinds those who believe not. And it's an illusion of evil cause when a closer look is taken spiritually it can be seen for what it is and for what is not.
The veil that is upon the heart will be taken away and the true light will shine...sooner or later...
God is the the one true God and Father-The Holy Spirit searchs God and man-The Son which is Christ is the revealer of that which the Holy Spirit is quite ready to reveal if one can take the truth which is not only carnal which is a shadow of the heavenly but that which is spiritual and gives understanding and light. Seemingly in contradiction to the physical and carnal thoughts, but not, for the carnal mind is against the promises of God yet the spiritual mind and mindedness will discover the secrets of the universal Christ who is one with God thru Jesus the Christ. Not at his physical birth as some believe, but at his spiritual birth and as he grew to know this Christ, God's Son, He bacame the Son of God, one with God, which is and will be manifest within each of us in time. And as part of the whole we are each gods with our own gifts and angels and heart to contribute.
Because it is within us, that which is ready to reveal and bring to life the true life of God, the Holy Spirit and His Son.
Noone will be left out. God is Love.
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LG
Can you point out a single flaw in what I wrote?
Can you suggest any circumstances under which CM's suggestion makes a lick of sense?
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Abigail
LG, Sheesh, calm down.
"Don't toss out vague proposals of possibilities that could apply to everyone, including yourself and the most respected of Jewish scholars, but the liklihood of which you have no basis to assess."
I would never deny that they could apply to myself. I am still learning and have a long way to go.
"Can you suggest any circumstances under which CM's suggestion makes a lick of sense?"
I can suggest a circumstance which would suggest CM could very well be onto something that makes sense.
Throughout the OT, the Jews were always getting in trouble for worshipping goddesses. Even many years into Christianity, the fight to end goddess worship was still going.
In some sects/cultures, those who worshipped the goddess practiced rituals which involved having sex. In some sects/cultures, the children produced by those rituals were understood to be children of the gods. The men were not allowed to claim them as their own and it was said no man had a right to because no man could possibly know who fathered the child.
Now I don't know how far back these practices date, but it is entirely possible they date back to biblical times.
So, IF those rituals dated back to biblical times, it is possible that Mary had such a child and that Joseph and Mary both raised that child as a child of a god.
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CM
Yes, the goddess, what is that really?
The origins of man have much to reveal on this subject though it had been buried in narrow minded thinking and previous thought patterns.
One God-three Gods in one-trinity, and other such speculation that only the Spirit can reveal if we have the patience and self control to let Christ open the flood gates of heaven. Because we must go there - it will not come to us unless we seek. Many have given up. Hopefully the love of the truth will be visited again.
Love will bring us to the point where God can work His perfect work, if fear does not stop us.
It has been talked about and missed.
Not many seem to want to know. A few do.
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CM
We are all children of God by physical birth. It's the spiritual birth that opens the eyes of spiritual understanding. Past the physical into the unseen and invisable things of God that he has prepared for us.
Spiritual truth will not only replace the physical but further clarify it into understanding beyond that which you can comprehend on your own. Selfish self righteousness will hold us back from that which The Lord longs to reveal at his coming which could be future or today.
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CM
So the Birth of Jesus has been misunderstood for many...why is birth so misunderstood when it happens all the time. There is no indiction that this one is any different then the others.
A baby being God Himself? Maybe some should grow in their own wisdom and understanding.
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CM
So stay with your views of Jesus being God at his physical birth, I have confidence in God that he will reveal in due time the truth of the matter. I am not trying to win anyone to anything but proposing things that have not been considered. And contrary to what some may think it did not originate in my thinking from searches on the internet. But a slow growing into truth and changing and transforming. Isn't this what the scriptures speak about? Or is it just a toy to play with at our convenience.
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TheInvisibleDan
Whoa, and I thought I was the only one in the world today experiencing a certain existential, on-the-edge grumpiness.Unless everyone else here also made the mistake of starting out their day with a cup of java polluted with Land-of-Lakes "Non-Dairy" coffee creamer. My God, that stuff tastes like sh!#, leaving the lingering aftertaste of a dried toad.
I can't wait until Monday.
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LG
Abigail,
I enjoy the Bible as literature. Like other good literature, it makes sense, within its "universe." I can enjoy discussing it within that universe, even though I don't think that universe corresponds very well with reality. You and CM seem to want to set what the Bible says in some other universe, in which words that mean something and make perfect sense in the Biblical universe mean anything one wishes, or nothing at all, and make little sense in their original context. That's fine, but I have little to contribute to such a discussion, so I'll bow out.
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CM
Please clarify who you are speaking of Danny. If I have offended please let me know. This not my intention at all.
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