Matthew 1:18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
before they came together could mean to complete the marriage instead of intercourse
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost
of = together with
I still think that Joseph had to contribute the seed and that the Holy Ghost purifyed it.
I have to take issue with the entire concept that we are someone born in sin. Sorry, its just the way I feel. Even when I was a small child I could not figure out how I could have done something so wrong it was considered a sin. I could not understand how a just God could condemn me or label me as being "born in sin" for something that occured before I was born.
The entire concept of being born in sin goes back to the Catholic idea that somhow we are all sinners, and women most of all.
If we are all perfectly made, formed, and created, then how can we be born in sin?
It just doesn't add up.
Like children, who must learn right from wrong, who must gain wisdom from their experiences, so humanity must learn right from wrong and gain wisdom from experience. That is not sin, it is just plain growing up.
I have to take issue with the entire concept that we are someone born in sin. Sorry, its just the way I feel. Even when I was a small child I could not figure out how I could have done something so wrong it was considered a sin. I could not understand how a just God could condemn me or label me as being "born in sin" for something that occured before I was born.
The entire concept of being born in sin goes back to the Catholic idea that somhow we are all sinners, and women most of all.
If we are all perfectly made, formed, and created, then how can we be born in sin?
It just doesn't add up.
Like children, who must learn right from wrong, who must gain wisdom from their experiences, so humanity must learn right from wrong and gain wisdom from experience. That is not sin, it is just plain growing up.
Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)-->
Colossians 3:1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
I think where part of the problem stems from is you are going strictly from the Bible, and in a fairly literal fashion.
I figure - The Bible as we have it today, was basically put together by men, many of whom were corrupt to some degree by their own agenda, which was by and large political power via a religious name.
Therefore, while I think there is much to be learned from the bible, I cannot view it as being "pure".
In addition to whatever slants may have been added to the Bible as we know it today, I suspect there has been much that was just plain left out because it didn't fit the agenda.
Think about when it was translated, what was going on during that time period, and just prior to that time period, politically. The Christians were fighting hard to put down paganism. They were also working hard to gain/hold political power.
My experiences have taught me that I have to stick with those things that make sense to ME. I have to trust what is peaceful to my heart.
I know you are working your way through some heavy stuff right now. I don't say any of these things to "reprove" or "condemn", cause I think you are pretty darned cool. I just say them to add another perspective.
I think where part of the problem stems from is you are going strictly from the Bible, and in a fairly literal fashion.
I figure - The Bible as we have it today, was basically put together by men, many of whom were corrupt to some degree by their own agenda, which was by and large political power via a religious name.
Therefore, while I think there is much to be learned from the bible, I cannot view it as being "pure".
In addition to whatever slants may have been added to the Bible as we know it today, I suspect there has been much that was just plain left out because it didn't fit the agenda.
Think about when it was translated, what was going on during that time period, and just prior to that time period, politically. The Christians were fighting hard to put down paganism. They were also working hard to gain/hold political power.
My experiences have taught me that I have to stick with those things that make sense to ME. I have to trust what is peaceful to my heart.
I know you are working your way through some heavy stuff right now. I don't say any of these things to "reprove" or "condemn", cause I think you are pretty darned cool. I just say them to add another perspective.
Peace
Or it could actually mean what it says and that we all all born in sin. We are a rebellious lot by nature. If we weren't born in sin, children would never be selfish, never disobey and never throw a tantrum.
I think the whole story is a myth anyway, but if you're going to believe the story, I'd think you'd accept what it says, which is that Joseph was not Jesus' father. If he and Mary had already had sexual intercourse even once before she "was found with child," then he would have assumed that the child was his, and wouldn't have been trying to decide whether to make her a public example or to put her away quietly.
There really are only three options. 1) Joseph was the father, in which case neither his thinking about how to put Mary away nor what the angel said makes sense. 2) Some other man was the father, in which case what Joseph was thinking about doing makes sense and what the angel told him was a lie. 3) The conception was miraculous and no human was the father, in which case the whole thing makes sense, if you believe what it says.
1) Joseph was the father, in which case neither his thinking about how to put Mary away nor what the angel said makes sense.
How do figure that? If you don't mind answering.
Joseph and Mary had sex which made her pregnant before they were to be officially married. So Joseph was thinking about putting her away secretly so she wouldn't have to go thru the public scrutiny or consequences. I'd say that's love! Plus it doesn't say how long they would keep it a secret either.
Then the angel appears and explains to Joseph what happened and what to do about it. What's so hard to understand once our twi teaching on this is put out of the way?
The number 3 reasoning doesn't hold up to many other things in the scriptures. Like you must be born of water and spirit. Joseph and Mary was his fleshly parents and God was his spiritual Father when he was born spiritually. He was to be of the seed of David not God. Physical birth and spiritual birth.
And there is absolutely no evidence to support number 2.
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Matthew 1:18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
before they came together could mean to complete the marriage instead of intercourse
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost
of = together with
I still think that Joseph had to contribute the seed and that the Holy Ghost purifyed it.
Happy Father's Day Joseph!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Very interesting thought CM.
Joseph by purified sperm is the father of Jesus.
Would not then Mary's egg have to be purified also?
The purified conception of Jesus.
Hmmmm.
I really dig that one!!!
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CM
Yes song I believe the egg would be too because of this-
This would be purifying.
Not only the egg but the whole process that began in Mary's womb imo.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
CM,
It's an interesting concept compared to the other ones.
Never heard the one you proposed, but then again, I have not done a Google on the gig.
What would be the point?
Still sounds like manipulated immaculate conception to me.
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CM
so what's your point?
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CM
The only reason I say purified is because I think his blood was pure and sinless. So possibly it was just the seed.
Thinking his blood was pure and sinless could be just my imagination though.
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Abigail
I have to take issue with the entire concept that we are someone born in sin. Sorry, its just the way I feel. Even when I was a small child I could not figure out how I could have done something so wrong it was considered a sin. I could not understand how a just God could condemn me or label me as being "born in sin" for something that occured before I was born.
The entire concept of being born in sin goes back to the Catholic idea that somhow we are all sinners, and women most of all.
If we are all perfectly made, formed, and created, then how can we be born in sin?
It just doesn't add up.
Like children, who must learn right from wrong, who must gain wisdom from their experiences, so humanity must learn right from wrong and gain wisdom from experience. That is not sin, it is just plain growing up.
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CM
I will take this into consideration Abigail.
It makes sense to me too.
It says we are born dead in trespasses and sins,
not born in sin-there could be a difference.
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CM
Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
;)-->
"who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Could be the reverse of alive in Christ.
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CM
Colossians 3:1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Just a few thoughts on the subject...so far
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
hey cm thots are one thing quotes are another
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
pure blood from impure blood
that's my point~~~
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
and every seed after it's own kind "IT" says
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Abigail
CM,
I think where part of the problem stems from is you are going strictly from the Bible, and in a fairly literal fashion.
I figure - The Bible as we have it today, was basically put together by men, many of whom were corrupt to some degree by their own agenda, which was by and large political power via a religious name.
Therefore, while I think there is much to be learned from the bible, I cannot view it as being "pure".
In addition to whatever slants may have been added to the Bible as we know it today, I suspect there has been much that was just plain left out because it didn't fit the agenda.
Think about when it was translated, what was going on during that time period, and just prior to that time period, politically. The Christians were fighting hard to put down paganism. They were also working hard to gain/hold political power.
My experiences have taught me that I have to stick with those things that make sense to ME. I have to trust what is peaceful to my heart.
I know you are working your way through some heavy stuff right now. I don't say any of these things to "reprove" or "condemn", cause I think you are pretty darned cool. I just say them to add another perspective.
Peace
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CM
Well song-lets find some scripture on the blood thing and give it some thoughts...and thinking...
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CM
Abi-I'm staying with the bible to a degree, and not so much literal but spiritually understanding it.
For instance dead in sins could be spiritually dead because it has not come to life yet by birth. Not that it isn't present within a person.
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CM
Yes-me too-stick with it!!!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
whaddaya say?
we start with sacrifice?
how much blood ya want CM?
It cries from the ground~~~
and i suppose the "scripture" you refer is the "B I B L E" ?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Forgive me CM,
I am in no shape for bible arm wrestling.
~~~was a time though.
Look up all the blood ya want.
All the blood line.
All the scenarios.
Moses was a bloody man!
By the blood of goats and bulls~~~
sacrifices
By the blood of Jesus Christ
and all that
kind of birth
I have no more to know what to think about all that type of thing anymore.
TWInty years of blood on my hand and JC Our Passover and all kinds of covenants~~~
too much for me anymore~~~
I am maybe sure there are others here to offer such gratuitous fellowship of holy bible scripture quotes and "its" meanings.
Forgive me~~~
I will only offer my thoughts~~~
Regards,
Song
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CM
No problem Song,
Your thoughts are welcome anytime.
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CM
After I posted these same thoughts on another forum, one of the posters told me about this site-
http://www.atozphotoshop.com/biblesite/Stu...VirginBirth.htm
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def59
Or it could actually mean what it says and that we all all born in sin. We are a rebellious lot by nature. If we weren't born in sin, children would never be selfish, never disobey and never throw a tantrum.
That's why we need a savior.
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LG
I think the whole story is a myth anyway, but if you're going to believe the story, I'd think you'd accept what it says, which is that Joseph was not Jesus' father. If he and Mary had already had sexual intercourse even once before she "was found with child," then he would have assumed that the child was his, and wouldn't have been trying to decide whether to make her a public example or to put her away quietly.
There really are only three options. 1) Joseph was the father, in which case neither his thinking about how to put Mary away nor what the angel said makes sense. 2) Some other man was the father, in which case what Joseph was thinking about doing makes sense and what the angel told him was a lie. 3) The conception was miraculous and no human was the father, in which case the whole thing makes sense, if you believe what it says.
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CM
How do figure that? If you don't mind answering.
Joseph and Mary had sex which made her pregnant before they were to be officially married. So Joseph was thinking about putting her away secretly so she wouldn't have to go thru the public scrutiny or consequences. I'd say that's love! Plus it doesn't say how long they would keep it a secret either.
Then the angel appears and explains to Joseph what happened and what to do about it. What's so hard to understand once our twi teaching on this is put out of the way?
The number 3 reasoning doesn't hold up to many other things in the scriptures. Like you must be born of water and spirit. Joseph and Mary was his fleshly parents and God was his spiritual Father when he was born spiritually. He was to be of the seed of David not God. Physical birth and spiritual birth.
And there is absolutely no evidence to support number 2.
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