I wonder if their isnt justice in the absence of what we miss, for example, things falling apart may not feel good, but it may have been worse had they not?
Since we live in an evil world, perhaps having two not so good events where one is worse may not feel like a good alternative, but maybe its the best one that there is. Life's dissapointments? Yeah, they cant be missed, because around every corner is a crusading beast looking to take advantage.
A ripping apart, a mending, a real and powerful Spirit that will kill and make alive.
possession you may say, say what you will, at His will, it will be done, over with, fall into it, let it have it's perfect work.
it falls into a frame of unseen justice and revenge that has not been considered...
overpowerering yet within the framework of our recognition of what can be attained and seen. well beyond that which we can handle on our own..
a very small thing in light of the overwhelming evidence of the real power given by God
so much so that it escapes the deepest imagination of the heart, a glimpse, a shadow of the living Christ
fully seen as this present melts away, in the here and now, escaping the pollutions of this world and really see what is and will be and already has been done
I suppose the better question would be to whom does He extend mercy? Does He require contrition before He extends mercy? I do not know how to answer that question. It would appear that He is longsuffering and witholds earned consequences for sin for some.
Yet there is also does appear that there is a eventually a settling of the score for those who reject His mercy and do not turn from doing evil. A case in point is TWI leadership. They have been exposed for the hucksters, manipulating and cruel people they are. They have been diminished. They are now a laughingstock. They have lost their hold over our lives and soon enough they will have no power at all which to them is a fate worse than death.
There is a saying from antiquity that applies here. "The mills of the gods (God)grind slowly but exceedingly small."
Maybe it will be a Perry Mason just confess and git it over with appearence and we can just git on with eternity seeing that we serve our time in time.
Whew, I know that opens all kinda doctrinal top of the line legal disputes~~~ like the gas chamber or the electric chair or hanging or just straight in the vein or whatever kinda justice that can/should be served
I'm sick of waiting for the "next life" to see justice. I want to see some fricking justice NOW
It seems to be a fallacy of religions like TWI, to try and get just enough crumbs for your own table and leave the bigger picture alone...Its fear of 'the world' and general refusal to deal with issues that needed addressing and 'leave it to God' bred an almost total absence in the patient working toward things that make for justice and a more just world....(since this is in doctrinal)It's a huge, huge doctrinal and practical mistake imo.
I don't know if we will ever see justice in my lifetime, but to wait, do nothing, or hope that things will somehow miraculously chnage like we were taught seems too much like selling my birthright.
i don't know what to say to you Abigail, I want justice Now too. When its not there, as many times it isn't, although it infuriates me, I do find some solace in channelling my energies toward changing things in whatever small way I can.
What about people who do bad things believing they are doing the will of God? Will God dish out His revenge on them also? Let's take for example slave owners in the U.S. Slaves who were also Christian, more than likely could not imagine why God had allowed such an awful thing to befall them, especially from other God fearing folks. These enslaved people were thinking when Jesus comes back, they will see justice done to their owners. Witches also, who were being hung probably took some comfort in knowing God will punish their executioners on His return. As whole Indian villages were being burned and inhabitants killed, they were praying that Jesus will punish those Christian's responsible. Can they expect God to dole out revenge and wrath to the Puritan's responsible for hangings? Too all the settlers of this country who made a fortune with slaves? And to the many God fearing Christians who stole the Indian's land and killed them?
Or, because they did not believe they were doing anything wrong, will God reward them for being His son or daughter, going to church, reading His bible, and being kind to each other? Is this one of those periods of time He will "wink" at?
How about today? Will people who wrong us, and believe they are right, be punished? Just because we are looking for wrath and revenge on someone, does that mean it will automatically come to someone who has caused us great physical or emotional harm or pain?
An early form of Christian dualism was the antithesis set between an Old Testament creator-deity of "justice" and a New Testament God of "goodness" (or "grace", a synonym for "good").
Early Christians -specifically the Marcionites, as well as other so-called "gnostics"- did not regard the OT and NT gods the same.
The Old Testament creator - or, "the god of this world" - was regarded a harsh, petty deity driven by his form of "justice", judgment and vengeance - while the "new" God introduced by Jesus - the "Stranger" - was a deity driven by unconditional love, through his desire to befriend, rescue and adopt the abused creatures of another deity, and transfer them into his kingdom "not of this world".
The entire system of the Marcionites was predicated upon the Old Testament versus the New Testament, unlike the Christian theologies which eventually won out that melded both beings into the one, mixed-up personality worshiped today.
The Marcionites, incidently, compiled and published the earliest Christian canon
(circ. 130 AD).
Artifacts of their theology may still be seen to have survived scattered throughout even our later, more bloated Bible versions.
The popular canticle on "love" in 1 Corinthians ch.13 is a supreme speciman of a Marcionite production of "antithesis" - many of the attributes contrary to "love" belong to the old testament god (e.g., "jealousy", "anger", being "easily provoked", etc.).
I have a somewhat more extensive "antithesis" reconstructed at my website,
I don't propose to answer the excellent questions raised here, or that the lost faith of "Marcionism" is or was a better Christian way of seeing things. But it is a much neglected and overlooked chapter in history...
Wow Stayed too long.... those are my questions EXACTLY.... Have you any answeres? Or are we just sol in this world and the next?
In the context of what our understanding is now of God and the spiritual realm I don't see any answers available. It seems human nature demands if we are wronged and can do nothing about it, we look to justice at some future point by a powerful judge. It doesn't seem to be in our being to accept certain wrongs we find troubling; we are not able to forgive or forget about them. The injustice done was just to great and the resolve lacking.
In extreme cases like murder some people are satisfied if the killer is caught, convicted, and executed. You don't hear them say things like "They will have to answer to God for their crime". You hear "he got what was coming to him." But if the killer is never caught, or given a light sentence, then God's future justice and revenge begins to enter the situation. They say things like "he will get his due from God", or "I wouldn't want to be him on judgment day".
To me it seems if we are able to forgive the injustice now no future action is required by God. But if we are unable to forgive the wrong then God will have to take action in the future to satisfy us.
I have a person I wish would get hit by a train and honestly I wouldnt mind watching.
sounds harsh?
or been there?
maybe some feel the same way about me.
justice what a word.
I have seen justice but nopt in an evil way.
love is justice and I believe God's way.
love them to death.
no do not put up with the hurt and pain and allow yourself to be hurt over and over but rather rise above it and carry onward towards a life filled with goodness. and peace.
this is the only justice I know.
will they someday burn in a fire pit?
it is what the bible says.. but who decides who?
Im glad it isnt me. I have enough on my plate to know I can only do justice to myself and those I come into contact with now.
I remember twi used to brag about hell and folks who are going to burn I say I would rather brag about the very mercy I have known in my life.
I do not believe in little or big sins. we all fall short and it is a daily walk with the Lord to contend with our own enemy. it isnt about flesh and blood people, so very very hard to understand when the sob is in your face insulting you and hurting you I know I know. I try to step back and pray for myself to find the peace in the choas Satan can make.
in the end I hope for the peace and life He promises , how justice will be met or to whom. matters little to me, as it is written we will all see it and all deserve it.
this is one of the greatest weaknesses i can think of in christianity.
"OH YEAH! JUST WAIT UNTIL GOD GETS YOU!"is such an empty threat.
it requires no proof of justice or the judge,has no precedent in history that can be proven by forensic scientific means. and leads me to wonder if it was merely a form of early social engineering that some religious genious tapped into.
ever notice how christianity taps into the fear a child has for a parents rettribution for disobedience? KUDOS! to the mental giant who came up with it!
that same model has been used adnauseum for centuries and for the same purpose:social control(opiate of the masses)
Isnt that a threat? worship God he will fry you like a piece of bacon on a hot grill.
folks do walk around with this gun of intimidation. who the heck does know what will happen I mean if you think the scriptures prove all evil men will die I do not read , I read all men who deny Jesus as LORD. will burn .
big difference. the problem is I do not think the SIT in proof of anyone having made Jesus Lord.
I do not know what proof there is really so the whole concept doesnt work for me .
I think there must be justice I just do not understand it very well.
aand iM kind of done trying to look for it because when I try to understand why the world is the way it is I get to sad.
Sure I wish for good and bad in life for many people.
I just think I have little to say or do about it so I just try to get my own life in order.
no thats not working very well either.
justice what a word.
I hear what your saying I have heard people talk about not being who they appear to be.
who they are. I do not understand it, I mean I have seen fake people , and I have been shocked by some people when some weirdo secret is revealed about them I never would have thought. yet in the end doesnt everyone go to bed at night and realize who they are?
Whether they present that to the world outside or not dont we all really know our own inner crap or goodness even if misunderstood?
doest prayer have to be honest?
I might try to fool the world but I think everyone knows they cant fool God.
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TheInvisibleDan
I used to like the series "Law & Order" and its various offshoots until I dealt with some real lawyers.
Ruined the entire charm of the show for me.
Damn you lawyers.
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rascal
I hear ya....and according to way doctrine....there won`t be any then either....
Not for the leaders if twi who have hurt folks.
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LG
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def59
Are you looking for justice or revenge?
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rascal
Well...if he has no hands but OUR hands....could it not be both?
ok...OK just kidding
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Abigail
Justice, Def. I am not a vengeful person.
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sky4it
Abby:
Long time no see good to say HI again.
I wonder if their isnt justice in the absence of what we miss, for example, things falling apart may not feel good, but it may have been worse had they not?
Since we live in an evil world, perhaps having two not so good events where one is worse may not feel like a good alternative, but maybe its the best one that there is. Life's dissapointments? Yeah, they cant be missed, because around every corner is a crusading beast looking to take advantage.
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def59
Whom should God extend Justice to then?
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CM
hmmm, i vote for justice and revenge
now and forever
and i believe it is happening
good thing i don't have to deal it out
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CM
Who can stand against the power of his might?
A ripping apart, a mending, a real and powerful Spirit that will kill and make alive.
possession you may say, say what you will, at His will, it will be done, over with, fall into it, let it have it's perfect work.
it falls into a frame of unseen justice and revenge that has not been considered...
overpowerering yet within the framework of our recognition of what can be attained and seen. well beyond that which we can handle on our own..
a very small thing in light of the overwhelming evidence of the real power given by God
so much so that it escapes the deepest imagination of the heart, a glimpse, a shadow of the living Christ
fully seen as this present melts away, in the here and now, escaping the pollutions of this world and really see what is and will be and already has been done
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oenophile
God is just in all His ways.
I suppose the better question would be to whom does He extend mercy? Does He require contrition before He extends mercy? I do not know how to answer that question. It would appear that He is longsuffering and witholds earned consequences for sin for some.
Yet there is also does appear that there is a eventually a settling of the score for those who reject His mercy and do not turn from doing evil. A case in point is TWI leadership. They have been exposed for the hucksters, manipulating and cruel people they are. They have been diminished. They are now a laughingstock. They have lost their hold over our lives and soon enough they will have no power at all which to them is a fate worse than death.
There is a saying from antiquity that applies here. "The mills of the gods (God)grind slowly but exceedingly small."
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CM
yeah...without mercy there would be no justice and vengence. just someone really mad...
i recall a mercy seat somewhere in the bible
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Abi,
Maybe it will be a Perry Mason just confess and git it over with appearence and we can just git on with eternity seeing that we serve our time in time.
Whew, I know that opens all kinda doctrinal top of the line legal disputes~~~ like the gas chamber or the electric chair or hanging or just straight in the vein or whatever kinda justice that can/should be served
Song
"...i have no clue,
except i am alive..."
from an old Celtic song~~~
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
CM,
Possession?
Are you talking Devil Spirits?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"Justice"
"Revenge"
Either the two are discussed for all eternity
or
what will be the wiping away of every tear?
If any of us live for all eternity and there are those who do not~~~ WHO will remember those as if never ever been born?
Of course!!!
Those who live for all eternity!
Justice is beyond our comprehension
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mstar1
It seems to be a fallacy of religions like TWI, to try and get just enough crumbs for your own table and leave the bigger picture alone...Its fear of 'the world' and general refusal to deal with issues that needed addressing and 'leave it to God' bred an almost total absence in the patient working toward things that make for justice and a more just world....(since this is in doctrinal)It's a huge, huge doctrinal and practical mistake imo.
I don't know if we will ever see justice in my lifetime, but to wait, do nothing, or hope that things will somehow miraculously chnage like we were taught seems too much like selling my birthright.
i don't know what to say to you Abigail, I want justice Now too. When its not there, as many times it isn't, although it infuriates me, I do find some solace in channelling my energies toward changing things in whatever small way I can.
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Stayed Too Long
What about people who do bad things believing they are doing the will of God? Will God dish out His revenge on them also? Let's take for example slave owners in the U.S. Slaves who were also Christian, more than likely could not imagine why God had allowed such an awful thing to befall them, especially from other God fearing folks. These enslaved people were thinking when Jesus comes back, they will see justice done to their owners. Witches also, who were being hung probably took some comfort in knowing God will punish their executioners on His return. As whole Indian villages were being burned and inhabitants killed, they were praying that Jesus will punish those Christian's responsible. Can they expect God to dole out revenge and wrath to the Puritan's responsible for hangings? Too all the settlers of this country who made a fortune with slaves? And to the many God fearing Christians who stole the Indian's land and killed them?
Or, because they did not believe they were doing anything wrong, will God reward them for being His son or daughter, going to church, reading His bible, and being kind to each other? Is this one of those periods of time He will "wink" at?
How about today? Will people who wrong us, and believe they are right, be punished? Just because we are looking for wrath and revenge on someone, does that mean it will automatically come to someone who has caused us great physical or emotional harm or pain?
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TheInvisibleDan
An early form of Christian dualism was the antithesis set between an Old Testament creator-deity of "justice" and a New Testament God of "goodness" (or "grace", a synonym for "good").
Early Christians -specifically the Marcionites, as well as other so-called "gnostics"- did not regard the OT and NT gods the same.
The Old Testament creator - or, "the god of this world" - was regarded a harsh, petty deity driven by his form of "justice", judgment and vengeance - while the "new" God introduced by Jesus - the "Stranger" - was a deity driven by unconditional love, through his desire to befriend, rescue and adopt the abused creatures of another deity, and transfer them into his kingdom "not of this world".
The entire system of the Marcionites was predicated upon the Old Testament versus the New Testament, unlike the Christian theologies which eventually won out that melded both beings into the one, mixed-up personality worshiped today.
The Marcionites, incidently, compiled and published the earliest Christian canon
(circ. 130 AD).
Artifacts of their theology may still be seen to have survived scattered throughout even our later, more bloated Bible versions.
The popular canticle on "love" in 1 Corinthians ch.13 is a supreme speciman of a Marcionite production of "antithesis" - many of the attributes contrary to "love" belong to the old testament god (e.g., "jealousy", "anger", being "easily provoked", etc.).
I have a somewhat more extensive "antithesis" reconstructed at my website,
http://geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3827
I don't propose to answer the excellent questions raised here, or that the lost faith of "Marcionism" is or was a better Christian way of seeing things. But it is a much neglected and overlooked chapter in history...
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rascal
Wow Stayed too long.... those are my questions EXACTLY.... Have you any answeres? Or are we just sol in this world and the next?
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Stayed Too Long
In the context of what our understanding is now of God and the spiritual realm I don't see any answers available. It seems human nature demands if we are wronged and can do nothing about it, we look to justice at some future point by a powerful judge. It doesn't seem to be in our being to accept certain wrongs we find troubling; we are not able to forgive or forget about them. The injustice done was just to great and the resolve lacking.
In extreme cases like murder some people are satisfied if the killer is caught, convicted, and executed. You don't hear them say things like "They will have to answer to God for their crime". You hear "he got what was coming to him." But if the killer is never caught, or given a light sentence, then God's future justice and revenge begins to enter the situation. They say things like "he will get his due from God", or "I wouldn't want to be him on judgment day".
To me it seems if we are able to forgive the injustice now no future action is required by God. But if we are unable to forgive the wrong then God will have to take action in the future to satisfy us.
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mj412
I have a person I wish would get hit by a train and honestly I wouldnt mind watching.
sounds harsh?
or been there?
maybe some feel the same way about me.
justice what a word.
I have seen justice but nopt in an evil way.
love is justice and I believe God's way.
love them to death.
no do not put up with the hurt and pain and allow yourself to be hurt over and over but rather rise above it and carry onward towards a life filled with goodness. and peace.
this is the only justice I know.
will they someday burn in a fire pit?
it is what the bible says.. but who decides who?
Im glad it isnt me. I have enough on my plate to know I can only do justice to myself and those I come into contact with now.
I remember twi used to brag about hell and folks who are going to burn I say I would rather brag about the very mercy I have known in my life.
I do not believe in little or big sins. we all fall short and it is a daily walk with the Lord to contend with our own enemy. it isnt about flesh and blood people, so very very hard to understand when the sob is in your face insulting you and hurting you I know I know. I try to step back and pray for myself to find the peace in the choas Satan can make.
in the end I hope for the peace and life He promises , how justice will be met or to whom. matters little to me, as it is written we will all see it and all deserve it.
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think fish
"justice in the next life"
this is one of the greatest weaknesses i can think of in christianity.
"OH YEAH! JUST WAIT UNTIL GOD GETS YOU!"is such an empty threat.
it requires no proof of justice or the judge,has no precedent in history that can be proven by forensic scientific means. and leads me to wonder if it was merely a form of early social engineering that some religious genious tapped into.
ever notice how christianity taps into the fear a child has for a parents rettribution for disobedience? KUDOS! to the mental giant who came up with it!
that same model has been used adnauseum for centuries and for the same purpose:social control(opiate of the masses)
AND MONEY!!
religion is poison.
shun it!
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irisheyes
Perhaps the best justice is standing before God in our own shoes, not someone else's?
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mj412
I think your right think fish.
Isnt that a threat? worship God he will fry you like a piece of bacon on a hot grill.
folks do walk around with this gun of intimidation. who the heck does know what will happen I mean if you think the scriptures prove all evil men will die I do not read , I read all men who deny Jesus as LORD. will burn .
big difference. the problem is I do not think the SIT in proof of anyone having made Jesus Lord.
I do not know what proof there is really so the whole concept doesnt work for me .
I think there must be justice I just do not understand it very well.
aand iM kind of done trying to look for it because when I try to understand why the world is the way it is I get to sad.
Sure I wish for good and bad in life for many people.
I just think I have little to say or do about it so I just try to get my own life in order.
no thats not working very well either.
justice what a word.
I hear what your saying I have heard people talk about not being who they appear to be.
who they are. I do not understand it, I mean I have seen fake people , and I have been shocked by some people when some weirdo secret is revealed about them I never would have thought. yet in the end doesnt everyone go to bed at night and realize who they are?
Whether they present that to the world outside or not dont we all really know our own inner crap or goodness even if misunderstood?
doest prayer have to be honest?
I might try to fool the world but I think everyone knows they cant fool God.
maybe not.
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