My family is from lansing, we spent all of our summers at a remote cabin in the U.P. It is on a wonderfull lake where I spent my summers catching perch, bass n great northern Pike....picking blue berries, exploring the woods....
We saw bear and deer, lot of porcupines, raccoons...
There was no electricity, no telephones, we communicated with other folks on the lake with our cb radios...
We heated with fuel oil, and used gas lights and stove.
Though in recent years, we have aquired electricity, running water and a phone, believe it or not we STILL use the out house that my great grandpa built almost a hundred years ago when it was just a trappers camp, though of course it IS a two seater and as such quite upscale...hee hee.
I got it -I took it 35 times-believe me I got it...I think most of the people here got it. Once we latched onto to what Wierwille was really saying we all left because it is completely lacking in any substance.
Get it?
Why is that so hard to get through?
mstar1,
You asked: "Why is that so hard to get through?"
I've often thought the same thing. I don't think I've discussed this with you, though, so I'll say it again.
You wrote: "I got it -I took it 35 times-believe me I got it...I think most of the people here got it. Once we latched onto to what Wierwille was really saying we all left because it is completely lacking in any substance."
It looks like you are talking about the film/video/tape class by your use of the words "I took it 35 times." That's NOT what I'm talking about when I refer to PFAL and mastering it. I'm NOT talking about the class.
Many times here, I've pointed out that the film/video/tape class is only the FOUNDATION and not the whole structure. If all there was to PFAL was the class then I'd have to agree with you that many to most of us DID take that enough times to pretty well master it. If the film class is all there is to PFAL then you'd be correct in asserting that there's substance lacking. That substance is in the books and magazine articles.
Over and over I've pointed this out here, yet hardly anyone gets it. Over and over Dr urged us to FINISH taking the class and master the written part of it, where the true substance is. The class is only an introduction to the meat in the books.
Get it?
Why is that so hard to get through?
When it does get through you'll see that many things in the books were forgotten or slipped by us unawares. If we had worked those written materials better back then we wouldn't have been fooled by all the false doctrines the slowly grew over the years in the verbal traditions that developed. Things like the "really absent Christ" would not have taken root. People might have started yearning to have Christ formed within, the mind of Christ born within, and allowed that rotten natural man mind we all inherited to die away.
God set up the books and magazine articles, gave revelation to Dr and gave revelation to Dr's editors (whether they knew it or not, HCW ;)-->) to produce the perfect writings necessary for us grads to have Christ formed within.
We all got "Christ in you the hope of glory" as the token, but then we all missed the significance of "Christ in us THE GLORY." It's still only a hope for all grads who have avoided fully receiving PFAL... in written form.
When the writings were nearly completed in 1982, Dr taught at Living Victoriously how Abraham turned hope into believing by receiving and believing special revelation God gave him. He then said that the special revelation for believing for the return of Christ had already been given to us.
This is in LV, but by then most were asleep and didn't see that the Times were a changin' right under our noses... like a thief in the night! A new administration coming in for those who were ready for it.
Now I KNOW you didn't hear any of this in the film class!
None of this was available in 1967 when that was made. It took time for God to get all of His Word into written form that's addressed to us grads.
Another benefit to mastering the written form of the class is being able to recognize Christ at his coming. It won't be his fingerprints, driver's license, or DNA that will proove his identity to us. He is the Word made flesh, and it's only by mastering PFAL (written form) that we grads will recognize him in the early stages of his presence.
Most grads are still at a kindergarten understanding regarding these things. Most think that they will know it's him and that it's time for the gathering when they notice their feet are not on the ground but at some high altitude above sea level. This is not what is taught in the books. In the writtein form of PFAL we learn that just like Jesus Christ is NOT ABSENT spiritually, we will rise spiritually to meet him; NOT physically but spiritually. We will meet him NOT in the physical air, but spiritually in the God-breathed air, the written revelations of PFAL.
A point that IS made in the film class, but few get it, is that there is (or rather "was" in 1967) no authoritative written Word of God in the world. There were ancient mis-copied fragments, worldly-scholarly assemblages of the fragments, and man-made translations, but nothing authoritative. Just like punctuation, verse divisions, and chapter headings are devoid of authority, so are the critical Greek texts and all their translations and versions.
We were taught in Session Three that no translation, let alone a version is the ultimate Word of God. Most grads never got this. Translations and versions may be correct in one spot and dead wrong in another, and there is no authority to say which is which. Any section of scripture that you bet your life on MAY turn out to be mis-translated in modern times or miscopied in ancient times. God made Dr the one with whom He would end all this uncertainty. With the gradual writing of the collaterals and magazine articles, the merely approximate traditional scriptures were less and less needed. All the KJV verses we grads need in these times God had expounded upon in PFAL... in writtin form.
As PFAL was gradually put into "book an magazine form" over the years 1971-85, reliance on our KJV was less and less emphasized by Dr and the more he urged us to master PFAL...not the film class but it's written form.
As God is my witness, how can you peddle such garbage. We know from scripture that the believers will physically be in heaven when Christ returns. We will have new bodies, but bodies nonetheless.
As for the book and magazine form, you've butchered that quote too. I've read it and can not see how you came to your contusion, I mean conclusion.
Well, if you like me (and thanks :)-->) then relax a little. These things take time to see. AND it takes a better atmospere in which to see them. It takes diligence and mastery. If you're patient we can get into the HUNDREDS of passages that illuminate these things.
I'm not saying that there will be an end to the physical realm. I'm saying the initial actions will be spiritual and hidden from natural men.
It takes junking the "left behind" thesis, along with many other traditional things.
That you can deny something as important as the return of Jesus Christ....try to minimalize it, attempt to make it mean that instead, we have to *meet* him in some stupid book is just plain assinine.
Step outside of your books mike, you won`t find God, Jesus or spiritual enlightenment in them....just confusing formulas and murkey preceptions.
Translations and versions may be correct in one spot and dead wrong in another, and there is no authority to say which is which. Any section of scripture that you bet your life on MAY turn out to be mis-translated in modern times or miscopied in ancient times. God made Dr the one with whom He would end all this uncertainty. With the gradual writing of the collaterals and magazine articles, the merely approximate traditional scriptures were less and less needed. All the KJV verses we grads need in these times God had expounded upon in PFAL... in writtin form.
Hey there Mike. -->
I agree with most of the first sentence. I also agree with the 2nd sentence. But it is the 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences that I don't agree with (from your statement I quoted).
An honest question here (one that I think has not been asked before -- but perhaps it has):
How do you know that docvic was the *chosen one*, as you said???
Why is pfal any better than other writer's works, especially the Bible itself?
Why didn't God chose Billy Graham and his ministry (for instance), which has a flawless record of sexual misconduct, and preaches the gospel of reconciliation?
And by what authority do you make these claims?
I know that you are convinced that what you say is true, and on that -- I think all will agree. What I am asking here (honest question - remember?), is how can docvic's *works* be so highly thought of, since he got them all from other men before him, messed up so totally *in the flesh*, and they were wrong (according to you), and he is right? -->
Please tell me (us) how you know for a certainty your claim in sentence number 3, about *God making docvic the one who would end all uncertainty*.
I for one do not see it. Many men have walked for God. I see correctness and error in many *ministries*, but I am loath to place one over the other (as you have done), and declare one *better than others* I see God at work in many people's lives, and through many different avenues.
Some are Baptist; some are Pentecostal; some are Catholic; some are Non-Denominatonal; some are; some are; some are; --- the list goes on.
I learned much, and from many different *outfits* --- and twi was just one of them. They and pfal will never be more to me than that -- a learning experience. Were they all sincere?? Yes.
And as we all know -- SINCERITY IS NO GUARANTEE FOR TRUTH!
ALL of the kjv that grads needed were in contained in pfal??? THAT makes it very convenient to sin without concience...cover for other peoples sin ....how to justify the evil when caught and confronted....Why just ignore the verses that cramp your style!
How very subtle, yet effective....you have the legitimacy of scripture that have been respected for millenia, yet you are able to practice whatever evil suits your fancy....BRILLIANT!
I vaguely remember Bullinger expounding on the heaven issue. It was years ago, but I remember a phrase "birds of the heavens" regarding common creatures. I checked this out 30 years ago, so it's dim.
Howdy. I was getting set to abandon ship in the public forums, but here I am again. Maybe this is my last gasp, or just a second wind. I just felt inspired to try again.
You wrote: "I agree with most of the first sentence. I also agree with the 2nd sentence."
Those sentences you agree with would be: "Translations and versions may be correct in one spot and dead wrong in another, and there is no authority to say which is which. Any section of scripture that you bet your life on MAY turn out to be mis-translated in modern times or miscopied in ancient times."
This is great progress, that you would agree with these two sentences!
The pre-1942 situation was bleak, spiritually, and stayed bleak for some time after. It had been a disaster, with only a few glimmers of light for many centuries, ever since the Word was rejected in the first century. Let's remember this.
***
But then you backed off with the next 3 sentences I wrote which were: "God made Dr the one with whom He would end all this uncertainty. With the gradual writing of the collaterals and magazine articles, the merely approximate traditional scriptures were less and less needed. All the KJV verses we grads need in these times God had expounded upon in PFAL... in written form."
I admit that these sentences are a huge thing to believe. If it hadn't been for many things lining up over the course of many years for me I'd have never been able to believe these things, and even less able to speak and write them.
I mentioned earlier to mstar1 that: "These things take time to see. AND it takes a better atmosphere in which to see them. It takes diligence and mastery. If you're patient we can get into the HUNDREDS of passages that illuminate these things."
Please don't expect one post from me to line things up for you to believe these things in one sitting. If you remember the bleak and desperate situation a few paragraphs up, though, then you might be persuaded to put the time investment into looking to see if these later three sentences of mine describe the solution to the problem. Seeing that there is a HUGE problem in what we had passed down to us by antiquity is crucial. Those who are happy with tradition and feel that simply passing a test of time means integrity and accuracy will never look for a solution and will be bound in the uncertainty that you have agreed exists with traditional scriptures. This is what I meant many months ago with my phrase of "tattered remnants."
I've seen a lot of error pass tests of time.
There are no amount of posts from me that will do the trick and persuade you of the validity of the solution that I stated. It's only by opening the books and devoting to them the same amount of time and diligent effort that you put into GreaseSpot posting that you will see the validity of my later three sentences.
The fact that Dr's many urgings to master PFAL were buried, and then his final teaching being totally lost might lead you to see a hint that putting great effort into mastering PFAL (remember: written form, mstar1 and others) is a worth while thing to do.
The top leadership that were responsible for relaying Dr's often and final instructions to master the books were unquestioningly corrupt. That Dr's final instructions were so stupidly trampled on by these men was a strong motivating factor for me to do what they thought was unimportant.
By 1998 I was very disgusted with the lack of accountability and responsibility of top leadership. I had spent 11 years pursuing them with valid questions as to what was going on. Either they were tight lipped about very important information, or they were foolish and hateful blabbermouths. I was stunned with how every one of them had discounted us underlings and were only looking out for themselves.
For me it was an easy thing to decide that since they all had so totally rejected Dr's final instructions to master PFAL, well by golly, I was going to do the exact opposite. That's on the flesh and blood level.
On the spiritual level I perceived that since the adversary had been so totally successful in suppressing Dr's last teaching, then there must be something very powerful in it that we needed and he didn't want us to see.
So I had a very strong hint that if I wanted to find the solution to the big problem of surety in scriptures, then I ought to take another look at the PFAL writings, and do it very carefully. That's when I started finding many, many "Thus saith the Lord" statements. I lost count at 90.
I figured that if Dr was lying, then it would all fall apart as I mastered the material. If he told the truth then it would all start coming together. I saw the later happen in a relatively short time, with some guidance from someone who had traced the same steps years earlier than me.
As I spent much time in the books I was amazed at all I had forgotten or that had slipped by me long ago unnoticed. I saw the same had happened for many others I discussed these things with. I was encouraged that I was on the right track. I also saw that for me and one other grad here, that as soon as we both got committed to this course all hell broke out in our personal lives with others near us. It was a zoo for a while. I could see that the adversary was throwing at us all that the could. Although this was very painful, it encouraged me all the more to press on and see more that had been lost.
So, remember, there's a huge problem in the matter us surety, and that Dr and I are screaming at the top of our lungs (Dr in the books and me here) that there is a solution in the revelations that were put into written form and ignored. I know of no other solution offered except from scholars who say that they are working on it and getting closer all the time. But how do they know that they aren't geting FARTHER from it with their reasonings?
Well, I am not interested in their flesh methods because I know who runs the flesh realm. I want to see the spiritual solution, the Holy Spirit's solution. If it's not done by revelation, then all we can have is the surety that flesh can conjure up. That's not good enough for me.
If not PFAL to solve the surety problem, then WHAT? Scholars have no surety.
I'm saying that PFAL worked once when we were first exposed to it's pure form. We drifted from that pure form and things worked poorly. Coming back to PFAL to see what it can offer when done up properly is an unturned stone in the search for surety. We only half received what it offers. Those who did not see it work well once before have NO motivation to come back, and I can't blame them. It's only those who once were sure something was very right and worth devoting a lifetime to that can see these hints that it's worth coming back. Those who came in under Craig's reign have little reason to come back and huge reasons to stay away. I understand that.
***
You wrote: "An honest question here (one that I think has not been asked before -- but perhaps it has): How do you know that docvic was the *chosen one*, as you said???"
He said so AND he delivered the goods. But you must open the package and commit to it to see if it's true.
How did you come to believe that the original scriptures are the True Word? How did you come to believe that Paul was the chosen one to receive the mystery? You had to read his Epistles to believe that, AND you had to have some help to do it.
How did anyone in the Bible come to believe that God had spoken to some previous prophet? This is a very deep issue. It's never solved by armchair theologians. It's solved by those who hear that still small voice and then commit their all to follow it in spite of all sorts of flesh oppositions.
***
You wrote: "Why is pfal any better than other writer's works, especially the Bible itself?"
Because it was NOT just vp wierwille who produced it. God brought it to him, sometimes in direct revelations, sometimes by guiding him to others who had heard that still small voice and were able to teach it to him or write it down for him.
Remember, we don't really have the Bible, just scholarly attempts to reconstruct it and worse yet translate it. Some parts were done well others not.
***
You wrote: "Why didn't God chose Billy Graham and his ministry (for instance), which has a flawless record of sexual misconduct, and preaches the gospel of reconciliation?"
He has his good traits but he also has faults. In order to keep his numbers up he has to say what people want to hear. He wasn't constrained by sex problems, but he was constrained by tradition problems. God needed a man who was willing to buck the system if He was to get something into written form that went beyond the system. Dr had the courage to face isolation from vast numbers of traditionalists. If Billy Graham had gone into SIT, Jesus Christ is not God, no consciousness after death, or heaven bound then he would have lost his numbers, and he knew it. He was good at getting people to face their lack of commitment within, but he was not good at getting people to reject tradition that is in error. He stays far from those issues. Accuracy in defiance of tradition and surety are not his longsuit. He deals more with emotions and commitment and it seems like he was able to work them pretty well.
***
You wrote: "And by what authority do you make these claims?"
I'm merely someone who has taken the time to look at the package very carefully, and in defiance of all those who were around me. I simply WANTED the truth more than social comfort. I lost a lot of that comfort, but I got to see more. I can type pretty fast, and I like to write. That's why I'm here. I saw that I was the only one who could announce these things to the other grads. I have no authority, but I can report who does.
***
You wrote: "I know that you are convinced that what you say is true, and on that -- I think all will agree. What I am asking here (honest question - remember?), is how can docvic's *works* be so highly thought of, since he got them all from other men before him, messed up so totally *in the flesh*, and they were wrong (according to you), and he is right?"
Like I said earlier, and posted many times before, those other men got the stuff from God. They each had their niche where they worked as minor revolutionaries. In this seeming endless plagiarism debate here I've posted from every direction on these things. Dr openly stated many times that he got many items from others, named names, and claimed to have God's guidance in putting it all together. He was totally honest in asserting that he "didn't write the book." He always stated that he either got his written material from others who got it from God or that he got it directly from God.
As far as him messing up in the flesh I have less to say. I will not accept this forum as even coming close to having the surety of a court to law regarding Dr's sins, and courts are pretty crude themselves at times. I know from the Word that he had to have sin, and I know that one of the best levers the adversary has against a man is sex. That's all I need to know. I also know that God can tolerate a lot more sex sins than people can. I will never accept testimony, especially 20 and 30 years after the fact, that says Dr was beyond God's ability to work the PFAL revelations out with him. There's no one here who understands sex well enough and God enough to make that kind of judgment. I will only look within the books to see if it's God's Word. All other information is tainted in many ways in my eyes. I see MOST of his accusers as way out of balance on the law side. Dr confesses that he once was way out of balance on the law side too. I saw that in my day with him he was quite liberal, in fact too liberal for me at times. The balance here is rare, and that most people gravitate to one extreme or another has been my observation. Sometimes they switch from one extreme to the other and totally miss the balance in between. If I HAD to choose between working with people afflicted with the evils of puritanism and people afflicted with the evils of licentiousness I'd chose the later. Coming from a strict RC background and having law leanings myself, I feel that MUCH more evil comes from over-spiritualizing sex and the religious pursuit of sexual purity. I don't like either imbalance, but puritanism really stinks worse. I think God looks at it the same way. God tolerated a lot from David and others regarding sex, but murder was where He drew the line. Now watch how the puritans here will magnify and twist whatever they can with this paragraph, and ignore all the other points I make. There's a much greater evil in puritanism and the adversary milked it up to the max with the RC and Western culture, which was where the scriptures were. If liberal sex was the best way to suppress the truth, then the adversary would have had an RC kama sutra written hundreds and hundreds of years ago and in every Protestant church too.
***
You wrote: "Please tell me (us) how you know for a certainty your claim in sentence number 3, about *God making docvic the one who would end all uncertainty*."
I've pretty well answered that already. I arrived at my surety with PFAL by the same means that I came to believe that the original Bible was true. Someone told me (vpw) in a way that convinced me to open the book a lot. After spending a lot of time with my KJV God worked with me and I got to the place where I was willing to bet my life on it.
How does anything like this get accepted? People try it out and like it. It's never proved beyond a shadow of a doubt and then accepted. Life doesn't work that way. We only have solid proofs in mathematics. In physics less surety in the proofs is enjoyed, and in biology even still less. By the time we get to spiritual matters there is no such thing as a proof.
Have you ever been asked similar questions regarding the Bible? How could you prove to a skeptic that the Bible is true? You can't. No one can. It's "try it you'll like it" or "come and see" and that's all we got.
***
You wrote: "I for one do not see it. Many men have walked for God. I see correctness and error in many *ministries*, but I am loath to place one over the other (as you have done), and declare one *better than others* I see God at work in many people's lives, and through many different avenues."
I felt the same way, until I was alerted to the special truths in PFAL, and saw these things lacking elsewhere. If you lived in Jesus' time the above sentence you wrote would suddenly have an exception to it, right? Jesus' way would be superior to all others, but would you be able to see it? Would you ask Jesus for a mathematical proof that he was God's Son? If you would he would surely decline. He's say work the word with me, AND IT WOULD TAKE TIME. If you asked for a miracle as proof he'd likely decline. Thomas got his, but he put a lot of time into it before he was accommodated, and even then he was scolded for missing the greater blessing of believing first and then seeing.
Where and when are you willing to believe first and then see as per Jesus' advice? I see nothing but PFAL for such a leap on my part.
Leap we must, but where?
How about some unturned stone that has good credentials. PFAL worked once well for some of us. For us who saw PFAL once work well my invitation to do what ALL the top leadership was seduced into NOT doing is a hot tip!
You wrote: "let me put it this way, if it works for you fine, but why can't you understand that I and many people here are not interested?"
Many people here have insulated themselves from hearing of all the choices available to them. By their own admission many here, when in TWI, rarely went outside the box and thought TWI was all there was that was good. I saw this happening back then and resisted it, but I know few others did too.
Now, after the ministry meltdown, many here rarely go outside a new box: that PFAL is evil.
Many here have rarely faced any opposition regarding their newer theories on PFAL. Many here have wanted to keep this insularity and called for my ouster.
I offer data that many here cannot and have not heard anywhere else.
Besides, a few have been interested in my postings, but not in posting themselves. You are only looking at the high profile posters and not the lurking readers.
My question to you is similar. If these most visible posters don't want my message then why do they spend so much time posting in my vicinity? When I start a thread they flock to it. When I post on just one thread like I am now, they flock to that one. Why aren't you asking the same question of them that you asked me?
***
You wrote: " I have found the way that works for me and am 'heeding my call', its not yours its mine and there is no way i would reject mine to heed yours..."
No way? Is your way leading you to do all the thing that Jesus Christ did? Is your way teaching you the fine points on how to operate the other six manifestations? Many here have given up on those goals in favor of temporary comfort. Have you? If so, why settle for what is the norm?
Nearly anyone can find ways to become relatively and temporarily comfortable. If you're committed to mediocrity, fine. I'd like to challenge you to think like Jesus did and that we can rise up to his level. Maybe you gave up because your previous PFAL attempt failed. Well maybe it was the attempt that was flawed and not PFAL. I already showed you that your taking of the class 35 times was far from what we were instructed to do. Maybe if you go all the way it will work. Why sit you there until you die? It's people like you I'm trying to reach. I'll bet you had no idea that taking the film class 35 times was something Dr repeatedly said was NOT going to do the trick. You'll only know if you're missing something in those books by opening them and closing your ears to those who oppose such an action.
***
You wrote: "If your product is so great why are you wasting time here with people who have over and over in word and action told you they dont want it? There are 6 Billion people in the world who have never heard of vpw or pfal to talk to and convert."
The only ones to who PFAL is addressed are grads. As I wrote to dmiller above, it's only likely that older grads who saw it work once before will able to buck tradition enough to give the PFAL books a grand try like I'm urging. Everyone else has been "left behind" until we grads get it mastered. The thrust of Dr's final instructions were: FIRST master PFAL and THEN serve it. After we master it then we'll be able to hear God's instruction as how to exactly bless the others.
You don't get it. We all have inherited from Adam a heart that's desperately evil above all things. You're looking at specifics, and I'm talking about generalities.
Yes. Specific acts of evil can be discussed SPECIFICALLY, and
not in a vague way. Specific acts of evil are WRONG.
quote:
If you were in a great position of power, and you weren't getting your way, sooner or later you'd resort to whatever would work for you. The specifics don't matter to me.
Wrong about Rascal,
and if it was YOUR ox getting gored, the specifics WOULD matter
to you.
quote:
We all commit the greatest sin of failing to love God first and foremost. You're quibbling about much lesser sins.
Why raise such a fuss over RAPE, MOLESTATION, and FRAUD when we
all fail to love God first and foremost?
quote:
If it weren't for Christ you'd be doomed.
No shinola, Sherlock. Relevance?
quote:
Until you see that you'll never be able to forgive others like Jesus did and taught we should do too.
Jesus did not say those ministers in office were blameless
when they sinned-he confronted them.
In defending them and attacking confrontation,
you place yourself in diametric opposition to him.
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rascal
My family is from lansing, we spent all of our summers at a remote cabin in the U.P. It is on a wonderfull lake where I spent my summers catching perch, bass n great northern Pike....picking blue berries, exploring the woods....
We saw bear and deer, lot of porcupines, raccoons...
There was no electricity, no telephones, we communicated with other folks on the lake with our cb radios...
We heated with fuel oil, and used gas lights and stove.
Though in recent years, we have aquired electricity, running water and a phone, believe it or not we STILL use the out house that my great grandpa built almost a hundred years ago when it was just a trappers camp, though of course it IS a two seater and as such quite upscale...hee hee.
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Ham
Well, they don't make em like they used to!
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Ham
U.P. is nice though. Did you know that Ohio traded it to us for Toledo?
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dmiller
Hmmm. I didn't know that. If that's true, Ohio got the raw end of the deal!
:D-->
David
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Tumbleweed Kid
Meanwhile, back at the thread.......
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Mike
Yeah, meanwhile back at the thread!
mstar1,
You asked: "Why is that so hard to get through?"
I've often thought the same thing. I don't think I've discussed this with you, though, so I'll say it again.
You wrote: "I got it -I took it 35 times-believe me I got it...I think most of the people here got it. Once we latched onto to what Wierwille was really saying we all left because it is completely lacking in any substance."
It looks like you are talking about the film/video/tape class by your use of the words "I took it 35 times." That's NOT what I'm talking about when I refer to PFAL and mastering it. I'm NOT talking about the class.
Many times here, I've pointed out that the film/video/tape class is only the FOUNDATION and not the whole structure. If all there was to PFAL was the class then I'd have to agree with you that many to most of us DID take that enough times to pretty well master it. If the film class is all there is to PFAL then you'd be correct in asserting that there's substance lacking. That substance is in the books and magazine articles.
Over and over I've pointed this out here, yet hardly anyone gets it. Over and over Dr urged us to FINISH taking the class and master the written part of it, where the true substance is. The class is only an introduction to the meat in the books.
Get it?
Why is that so hard to get through?
When it does get through you'll see that many things in the books were forgotten or slipped by us unawares. If we had worked those written materials better back then we wouldn't have been fooled by all the false doctrines the slowly grew over the years in the verbal traditions that developed. Things like the "really absent Christ" would not have taken root. People might have started yearning to have Christ formed within, the mind of Christ born within, and allowed that rotten natural man mind we all inherited to die away.
God set up the books and magazine articles, gave revelation to Dr and gave revelation to Dr's editors (whether they knew it or not, HCW
;)-->) to produce the perfect writings necessary for us grads to have Christ formed within.
We all got "Christ in you the hope of glory" as the token, but then we all missed the significance of "Christ in us THE GLORY." It's still only a hope for all grads who have avoided fully receiving PFAL... in written form.
When the writings were nearly completed in 1982, Dr taught at Living Victoriously how Abraham turned hope into believing by receiving and believing special revelation God gave him. He then said that the special revelation for believing for the return of Christ had already been given to us.
This is in LV, but by then most were asleep and didn't see that the Times were a changin' right under our noses... like a thief in the night! A new administration coming in for those who were ready for it.
Now I KNOW you didn't hear any of this in the film class!
None of this was available in 1967 when that was made. It took time for God to get all of His Word into written form that's addressed to us grads.
Another benefit to mastering the written form of the class is being able to recognize Christ at his coming. It won't be his fingerprints, driver's license, or DNA that will proove his identity to us. He is the Word made flesh, and it's only by mastering PFAL (written form) that we grads will recognize him in the early stages of his presence.
Most grads are still at a kindergarten understanding regarding these things. Most think that they will know it's him and that it's time for the gathering when they notice their feet are not on the ground but at some high altitude above sea level. This is not what is taught in the books. In the writtein form of PFAL we learn that just like Jesus Christ is NOT ABSENT spiritually, we will rise spiritually to meet him; NOT physically but spiritually. We will meet him NOT in the physical air, but spiritually in the God-breathed air, the written revelations of PFAL.
A point that IS made in the film class, but few get it, is that there is (or rather "was" in 1967) no authoritative written Word of God in the world. There were ancient mis-copied fragments, worldly-scholarly assemblages of the fragments, and man-made translations, but nothing authoritative. Just like punctuation, verse divisions, and chapter headings are devoid of authority, so are the critical Greek texts and all their translations and versions.
We were taught in Session Three that no translation, let alone a version is the ultimate Word of God. Most grads never got this. Translations and versions may be correct in one spot and dead wrong in another, and there is no authority to say which is which. Any section of scripture that you bet your life on MAY turn out to be mis-translated in modern times or miscopied in ancient times. God made Dr the one with whom He would end all this uncertainty. With the gradual writing of the collaterals and magazine articles, the merely approximate traditional scriptures were less and less needed. All the KJV verses we grads need in these times God had expounded upon in PFAL... in writtin form.
As PFAL was gradually put into "book an magazine form" over the years 1971-85, reliance on our KJV was less and less emphasized by Dr and the more he urged us to master PFAL...not the film class but it's written form.
Get it?
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def59
Mike
As God is my witness, how can you peddle such garbage. We know from scripture that the believers will physically be in heaven when Christ returns. We will have new bodies, but bodies nonetheless.
As for the book and magazine form, you've butchered that quote too. I've read it and can not see how you came to your contusion, I mean conclusion.
And heck, I like you.
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Mike
Well, if you like me (and thanks
:)-->) then relax a little. These things take time to see. AND it takes a better atmospere in which to see them. It takes diligence and mastery. If you're patient we can get into the HUNDREDS of passages that illuminate these things.
I'm not saying that there will be an end to the physical realm. I'm saying the initial actions will be spiritual and hidden from natural men.
It takes junking the "left behind" thesis, along with many other traditional things.
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Mike
And remember: heaven is not a place in the physical universe.
Literal "heaven" is the air, the atmosphere above ground, dirt. Two feet off the ground is literal biblical heaven.
Figures of speech mark that which is most important.
Figurative "heaven" is the spiritual realm.
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rascal
That you can deny something as important as the return of Jesus Christ....try to minimalize it, attempt to make it mean that instead, we have to *meet* him in some stupid book is just plain assinine.
Step outside of your books mike, you won`t find God, Jesus or spiritual enlightenment in them....just confusing formulas and murkey preceptions.
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Mike
You'll have to master the books (plural) and then see if you think the same way.
Jesus met his Father in book form, and knew Him ONLY in book form, until he received spirit at age 30, and then he could know Him spiritually.
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smitty
I think that I finally see it! How do I get my PFAL books back that I sold on E bay!????!!!I even sold my University of Life course??!!!
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dmiller
Smitty -- well, I've got a coupla copies of the pfal series here, and the U of L Thessalonian's tapes.
Now --- if ya really want to have them back -----------------
;)--> 
:D-->
David
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mstar1
Mike
let me put it this way, if it works for you fine, but why can't you understand that I and many people here are not interested?
I have found the way that works for me and am 'heeding my call', its not yours its mine and there is no way i would reject mine to heed yours...
If your product is so great why are you wasting time here with people who have over and over in word and action told you they dont want it?
There are 6 Billion people in the world who have never heard of vpw or pfal to talk to and convert
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dmiller
Hey there Mike.
-->
I agree with most of the first sentence. I also agree with the 2nd sentence. But it is the 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentences that I don't agree with (from your statement I quoted).
An honest question here (one that I think has not been asked before -- but perhaps it has):
How do you know that docvic was the *chosen one*, as you said???
Why is pfal any better than other writer's works, especially the Bible itself?
Why didn't God chose Billy Graham and his ministry (for instance), which has a flawless record of sexual misconduct, and preaches the gospel of reconciliation?
And by what authority do you make these claims?
I know that you are convinced that what you say is true, and on that -- I think all will agree. What I am asking here (honest question - remember?), is how can docvic's *works* be so highly thought of, since he got them all from other men before him, messed up so totally *in the flesh*, and they were wrong (according to you), and he is right?
-->
Please tell me (us) how you know for a certainty your claim in sentence number 3, about *God making docvic the one who would end all uncertainty*.
I for one do not see it. Many men have walked for God. I see correctness and error in many *ministries*, but I am loath to place one over the other (as you have done), and declare one *better than others* I see God at work in many people's lives, and through many different avenues.
Some are Baptist; some are Pentecostal; some are Catholic; some are Non-Denominatonal; some are; some are; some are; --- the list goes on.
I learned much, and from many different *outfits* --- and twi was just one of them. They and pfal will never be more to me than that -- a learning experience. Were they all sincere?? Yes.
And as we all know -- SINCERITY IS NO GUARANTEE FOR TRUTH!
David
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Oakspear
Nitpicking Break:
Where is the evidence, outside of what Wierwille said about it, that literal heaven is anyplace above the earth?
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Oakspear
...like in a foot above the ground?
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rascal
ALL of the kjv that grads needed were in contained in pfal??? THAT makes it very convenient to sin without concience...cover for other peoples sin ....how to justify the evil when caught and confronted....Why just ignore the verses that cramp your style!
How very subtle, yet effective....you have the legitimacy of scripture that have been respected for millenia, yet you are able to practice whatever evil suits your fancy....BRILLIANT!
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Mike
rascal,
You got your head in the gutter. All you can post about is sin and sex. Dr taught that it was wrong what David did with Bathsheba.
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Mike
Oakspear,
I vaguely remember Bullinger expounding on the heaven issue. It was years ago, but I remember a phrase "birds of the heavens" regarding common creatures. I checked this out 30 years ago, so it's dim.
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Mike
dmiller,
Howdy. I was getting set to abandon ship in the public forums, but here I am again. Maybe this is my last gasp, or just a second wind. I just felt inspired to try again.
You wrote: "I agree with most of the first sentence. I also agree with the 2nd sentence."
Those sentences you agree with would be: "Translations and versions may be correct in one spot and dead wrong in another, and there is no authority to say which is which. Any section of scripture that you bet your life on MAY turn out to be mis-translated in modern times or miscopied in ancient times."
This is great progress, that you would agree with these two sentences!
The pre-1942 situation was bleak, spiritually, and stayed bleak for some time after. It had been a disaster, with only a few glimmers of light for many centuries, ever since the Word was rejected in the first century. Let's remember this.
***
But then you backed off with the next 3 sentences I wrote which were: "God made Dr the one with whom He would end all this uncertainty. With the gradual writing of the collaterals and magazine articles, the merely approximate traditional scriptures were less and less needed. All the KJV verses we grads need in these times God had expounded upon in PFAL... in written form."
I admit that these sentences are a huge thing to believe. If it hadn't been for many things lining up over the course of many years for me I'd have never been able to believe these things, and even less able to speak and write them.
I mentioned earlier to mstar1 that: "These things take time to see. AND it takes a better atmosphere in which to see them. It takes diligence and mastery. If you're patient we can get into the HUNDREDS of passages that illuminate these things."
Please don't expect one post from me to line things up for you to believe these things in one sitting. If you remember the bleak and desperate situation a few paragraphs up, though, then you might be persuaded to put the time investment into looking to see if these later three sentences of mine describe the solution to the problem. Seeing that there is a HUGE problem in what we had passed down to us by antiquity is crucial. Those who are happy with tradition and feel that simply passing a test of time means integrity and accuracy will never look for a solution and will be bound in the uncertainty that you have agreed exists with traditional scriptures. This is what I meant many months ago with my phrase of "tattered remnants."
I've seen a lot of error pass tests of time.
There are no amount of posts from me that will do the trick and persuade you of the validity of the solution that I stated. It's only by opening the books and devoting to them the same amount of time and diligent effort that you put into GreaseSpot posting that you will see the validity of my later three sentences.
The fact that Dr's many urgings to master PFAL were buried, and then his final teaching being totally lost might lead you to see a hint that putting great effort into mastering PFAL (remember: written form, mstar1 and others) is a worth while thing to do.
The top leadership that were responsible for relaying Dr's often and final instructions to master the books were unquestioningly corrupt. That Dr's final instructions were so stupidly trampled on by these men was a strong motivating factor for me to do what they thought was unimportant.
By 1998 I was very disgusted with the lack of accountability and responsibility of top leadership. I had spent 11 years pursuing them with valid questions as to what was going on. Either they were tight lipped about very important information, or they were foolish and hateful blabbermouths. I was stunned with how every one of them had discounted us underlings and were only looking out for themselves.
For me it was an easy thing to decide that since they all had so totally rejected Dr's final instructions to master PFAL, well by golly, I was going to do the exact opposite. That's on the flesh and blood level.
On the spiritual level I perceived that since the adversary had been so totally successful in suppressing Dr's last teaching, then there must be something very powerful in it that we needed and he didn't want us to see.
So I had a very strong hint that if I wanted to find the solution to the big problem of surety in scriptures, then I ought to take another look at the PFAL writings, and do it very carefully. That's when I started finding many, many "Thus saith the Lord" statements. I lost count at 90.
I figured that if Dr was lying, then it would all fall apart as I mastered the material. If he told the truth then it would all start coming together. I saw the later happen in a relatively short time, with some guidance from someone who had traced the same steps years earlier than me.
As I spent much time in the books I was amazed at all I had forgotten or that had slipped by me long ago unnoticed. I saw the same had happened for many others I discussed these things with. I was encouraged that I was on the right track. I also saw that for me and one other grad here, that as soon as we both got committed to this course all hell broke out in our personal lives with others near us. It was a zoo for a while. I could see that the adversary was throwing at us all that the could. Although this was very painful, it encouraged me all the more to press on and see more that had been lost.
So, remember, there's a huge problem in the matter us surety, and that Dr and I are screaming at the top of our lungs (Dr in the books and me here) that there is a solution in the revelations that were put into written form and ignored. I know of no other solution offered except from scholars who say that they are working on it and getting closer all the time. But how do they know that they aren't geting FARTHER from it with their reasonings?
Well, I am not interested in their flesh methods because I know who runs the flesh realm. I want to see the spiritual solution, the Holy Spirit's solution. If it's not done by revelation, then all we can have is the surety that flesh can conjure up. That's not good enough for me.
If not PFAL to solve the surety problem, then WHAT? Scholars have no surety.
I'm saying that PFAL worked once when we were first exposed to it's pure form. We drifted from that pure form and things worked poorly. Coming back to PFAL to see what it can offer when done up properly is an unturned stone in the search for surety. We only half received what it offers. Those who did not see it work well once before have NO motivation to come back, and I can't blame them. It's only those who once were sure something was very right and worth devoting a lifetime to that can see these hints that it's worth coming back. Those who came in under Craig's reign have little reason to come back and huge reasons to stay away. I understand that.
***
You wrote: "An honest question here (one that I think has not been asked before -- but perhaps it has): How do you know that docvic was the *chosen one*, as you said???"
He said so AND he delivered the goods. But you must open the package and commit to it to see if it's true.
How did you come to believe that the original scriptures are the True Word? How did you come to believe that Paul was the chosen one to receive the mystery? You had to read his Epistles to believe that, AND you had to have some help to do it.
How did anyone in the Bible come to believe that God had spoken to some previous prophet? This is a very deep issue. It's never solved by armchair theologians. It's solved by those who hear that still small voice and then commit their all to follow it in spite of all sorts of flesh oppositions.
***
You wrote: "Why is pfal any better than other writer's works, especially the Bible itself?"
Because it was NOT just vp wierwille who produced it. God brought it to him, sometimes in direct revelations, sometimes by guiding him to others who had heard that still small voice and were able to teach it to him or write it down for him.
Remember, we don't really have the Bible, just scholarly attempts to reconstruct it and worse yet translate it. Some parts were done well others not.
***
You wrote: "Why didn't God chose Billy Graham and his ministry (for instance), which has a flawless record of sexual misconduct, and preaches the gospel of reconciliation?"
He has his good traits but he also has faults. In order to keep his numbers up he has to say what people want to hear. He wasn't constrained by sex problems, but he was constrained by tradition problems. God needed a man who was willing to buck the system if He was to get something into written form that went beyond the system. Dr had the courage to face isolation from vast numbers of traditionalists. If Billy Graham had gone into SIT, Jesus Christ is not God, no consciousness after death, or heaven bound then he would have lost his numbers, and he knew it. He was good at getting people to face their lack of commitment within, but he was not good at getting people to reject tradition that is in error. He stays far from those issues. Accuracy in defiance of tradition and surety are not his longsuit. He deals more with emotions and commitment and it seems like he was able to work them pretty well.
***
You wrote: "And by what authority do you make these claims?"
I'm merely someone who has taken the time to look at the package very carefully, and in defiance of all those who were around me. I simply WANTED the truth more than social comfort. I lost a lot of that comfort, but I got to see more. I can type pretty fast, and I like to write. That's why I'm here. I saw that I was the only one who could announce these things to the other grads. I have no authority, but I can report who does.
***
You wrote: "I know that you are convinced that what you say is true, and on that -- I think all will agree. What I am asking here (honest question - remember?), is how can docvic's *works* be so highly thought of, since he got them all from other men before him, messed up so totally *in the flesh*, and they were wrong (according to you), and he is right?"
Like I said earlier, and posted many times before, those other men got the stuff from God. They each had their niche where they worked as minor revolutionaries. In this seeming endless plagiarism debate here I've posted from every direction on these things. Dr openly stated many times that he got many items from others, named names, and claimed to have God's guidance in putting it all together. He was totally honest in asserting that he "didn't write the book." He always stated that he either got his written material from others who got it from God or that he got it directly from God.
As far as him messing up in the flesh I have less to say. I will not accept this forum as even coming close to having the surety of a court to law regarding Dr's sins, and courts are pretty crude themselves at times. I know from the Word that he had to have sin, and I know that one of the best levers the adversary has against a man is sex. That's all I need to know. I also know that God can tolerate a lot more sex sins than people can. I will never accept testimony, especially 20 and 30 years after the fact, that says Dr was beyond God's ability to work the PFAL revelations out with him. There's no one here who understands sex well enough and God enough to make that kind of judgment. I will only look within the books to see if it's God's Word. All other information is tainted in many ways in my eyes. I see MOST of his accusers as way out of balance on the law side. Dr confesses that he once was way out of balance on the law side too. I saw that in my day with him he was quite liberal, in fact too liberal for me at times. The balance here is rare, and that most people gravitate to one extreme or another has been my observation. Sometimes they switch from one extreme to the other and totally miss the balance in between. If I HAD to choose between working with people afflicted with the evils of puritanism and people afflicted with the evils of licentiousness I'd chose the later. Coming from a strict RC background and having law leanings myself, I feel that MUCH more evil comes from over-spiritualizing sex and the religious pursuit of sexual purity. I don't like either imbalance, but puritanism really stinks worse. I think God looks at it the same way. God tolerated a lot from David and others regarding sex, but murder was where He drew the line. Now watch how the puritans here will magnify and twist whatever they can with this paragraph, and ignore all the other points I make. There's a much greater evil in puritanism and the adversary milked it up to the max with the RC and Western culture, which was where the scriptures were. If liberal sex was the best way to suppress the truth, then the adversary would have had an RC kama sutra written hundreds and hundreds of years ago and in every Protestant church too.
***
You wrote: "Please tell me (us) how you know for a certainty your claim in sentence number 3, about *God making docvic the one who would end all uncertainty*."
I've pretty well answered that already. I arrived at my surety with PFAL by the same means that I came to believe that the original Bible was true. Someone told me (vpw) in a way that convinced me to open the book a lot. After spending a lot of time with my KJV God worked with me and I got to the place where I was willing to bet my life on it.
How does anything like this get accepted? People try it out and like it. It's never proved beyond a shadow of a doubt and then accepted. Life doesn't work that way. We only have solid proofs in mathematics. In physics less surety in the proofs is enjoyed, and in biology even still less. By the time we get to spiritual matters there is no such thing as a proof.
Have you ever been asked similar questions regarding the Bible? How could you prove to a skeptic that the Bible is true? You can't. No one can. It's "try it you'll like it" or "come and see" and that's all we got.
***
You wrote: "I for one do not see it. Many men have walked for God. I see correctness and error in many *ministries*, but I am loath to place one over the other (as you have done), and declare one *better than others* I see God at work in many people's lives, and through many different avenues."
I felt the same way, until I was alerted to the special truths in PFAL, and saw these things lacking elsewhere. If you lived in Jesus' time the above sentence you wrote would suddenly have an exception to it, right? Jesus' way would be superior to all others, but would you be able to see it? Would you ask Jesus for a mathematical proof that he was God's Son? If you would he would surely decline. He's say work the word with me, AND IT WOULD TAKE TIME. If you asked for a miracle as proof he'd likely decline. Thomas got his, but he put a lot of time into it before he was accommodated, and even then he was scolded for missing the greater blessing of believing first and then seeing.
Where and when are you willing to believe first and then see as per Jesus' advice? I see nothing but PFAL for such a leap on my part.
Leap we must, but where?
How about some unturned stone that has good credentials. PFAL worked once well for some of us. For us who saw PFAL once work well my invitation to do what ALL the top leadership was seduced into NOT doing is a hot tip!
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Mike
mstar1,
You wrote: "let me put it this way, if it works for you fine, but why can't you understand that I and many people here are not interested?"
Many people here have insulated themselves from hearing of all the choices available to them. By their own admission many here, when in TWI, rarely went outside the box and thought TWI was all there was that was good. I saw this happening back then and resisted it, but I know few others did too.
Now, after the ministry meltdown, many here rarely go outside a new box: that PFAL is evil.
Many here have rarely faced any opposition regarding their newer theories on PFAL. Many here have wanted to keep this insularity and called for my ouster.
I offer data that many here cannot and have not heard anywhere else.
Besides, a few have been interested in my postings, but not in posting themselves. You are only looking at the high profile posters and not the lurking readers.
My question to you is similar. If these most visible posters don't want my message then why do they spend so much time posting in my vicinity? When I start a thread they flock to it. When I post on just one thread like I am now, they flock to that one. Why aren't you asking the same question of them that you asked me?
***
You wrote: " I have found the way that works for me and am 'heeding my call', its not yours its mine and there is no way i would reject mine to heed yours..."
No way? Is your way leading you to do all the thing that Jesus Christ did? Is your way teaching you the fine points on how to operate the other six manifestations? Many here have given up on those goals in favor of temporary comfort. Have you? If so, why settle for what is the norm?
Nearly anyone can find ways to become relatively and temporarily comfortable. If you're committed to mediocrity, fine. I'd like to challenge you to think like Jesus did and that we can rise up to his level. Maybe you gave up because your previous PFAL attempt failed. Well maybe it was the attempt that was flawed and not PFAL. I already showed you that your taking of the class 35 times was far from what we were instructed to do. Maybe if you go all the way it will work. Why sit you there until you die? It's people like you I'm trying to reach. I'll bet you had no idea that taking the film class 35 times was something Dr repeatedly said was NOT going to do the trick. You'll only know if you're missing something in those books by opening them and closing your ears to those who oppose such an action.
***
You wrote: "If your product is so great why are you wasting time here with people who have over and over in word and action told you they dont want it? There are 6 Billion people in the world who have never heard of vpw or pfal to talk to and convert."
The only ones to who PFAL is addressed are grads. As I wrote to dmiller above, it's only likely that older grads who saw it work once before will able to buck tradition enough to give the PFAL books a grand try like I'm urging. Everyone else has been "left behind" until we grads get it mastered. The thrust of Dr's final instructions were: FIRST master PFAL and THEN serve it. After we master it then we'll be able to hear God's instruction as how to exactly bless the others.
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WordWolf
Nice irony.
I posted this on page 18...
Mike's immediate next post included the following:
This gave a jim-dandy example of what I said on the same page-
that some people claim that all ministers rape and molest,
and raised the stakes, saying EVERYONE would rape and molest if
given the opportunity....and, of course the
"why focus on a felon's FELONIES?" issue.
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WordWolf
Yes. Specific acts of evil can be discussed SPECIFICALLY, and
not in a vague way. Specific acts of evil are WRONG.
Wrong about Rascal,
and if it was YOUR ox getting gored, the specifics WOULD matter
to you.
Why raise such a fuss over RAPE, MOLESTATION, and FRAUD when we
all fail to love God first and foremost?
No shinola, Sherlock. Relevance?
Jesus did not say those ministers in office were blameless
when they sinned-he confronted them.
In defending them and attacking confrontation,
you place yourself in diametric opposition to him.
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