if you knew sexual pervertedness was going on for 10 years why didn't you let everyone know?
if you even suspected it and didn't warn people you are just as guilty as the people commiting the acts!please answer
Chef, You make some good points but I have to say this for me. I too suspected something was going on but did not know for sure. I was even told there was a very stong possability there was something going on. I warned no one.
The facts are vp was showing porn to under aged kids and no one out of the thousands spoke up until either waydale of gsc.
The Allens were the first blow this dirty little cult out of the water Before that there were people that knew of or had even been raped that never said a word. It was a mind set atleast with the doggie video that we were seeing devil spirits at work and that was educational --> .
The rape part and I am not even talking about the victims but the ones that knew. My guess they feared of what was going to happen to them. It was all of the devil and it was exposed in a big way finaly only after thousands had been abused.
It is not the people who knew that are to blame here. They had their reasons to be quiet it is the ones that have been exposed that are to be blamed.
There were people who spoke up before. But TWI has very effective ways of dealing with whistle-blowers.
When I was at Emporia, I walked in on two people who were married (but not to each other) in each other's arms, lying together on the floor of an isolated room in Kenyon Hall. I immediately went to the assistant Corps director (the actual CD was out of town) and told him what I found. The couples were met with, and the next thing I knew, I was turned on and accused of things I did not do.
At HQ and other places, many other people who found out about sexual misconduct or whose wives were the victims of sexual misconduct, confronted top leadership. However, they were immediately isolated and eliminated before they could have any impact upon "the household."
Many of the people who were regularly defamed at HQ lunch announcements and Corps nights, were people who had stood up face to face to the powers that be over some of these sexual issues, and were fired and defamed.
The moment LCM would be confronted, he would have the Safety department immediately escort that person off grounds. Safety would be immediately posted to supervise that person's bum's rush out of HQ.
While one person was still confronting the offending party, their spouse would be immediately isolated by the armed Safety department. They each would be isolated so no one could get to them and ask them any questions, nor could they talk to each other. Pressure would be applied to both parties to be quiet (with a bribe). Failing that, pressure would be put on the marriage, usually to get the woman to stay (of course) and get the man to leave (See Driven To Suicide). Failing even that, they would both be quickly dispatched. In any case, they were immediately totally isolated and escorted by the Safety department so they could not talk to anyone else and explain their sudden departure.
Their belongings would be packed up and pushed to the street within hours, sometmes minutes.
At the very next meal or even sooner, the person or the couple would be denounced as "possessed," leaving everyone astounded, and afraid to contact them for fear of being influenced by devil spirits.
Paul Allen was simply the wrong man for LCM to try to mess with. Paul had seen this bum's rush happen many times before, and knew what to do to avoid it. As soon as he found out what LCM had done, he immediately went into action.
He secured his wife first and packed up his belongings quickly and quietly, and got her off grounds and secretly sequestered away as soon as possible so no one could get to her, before anyone could be alerted. Only then did he go straight to LCM and confront him.
After unsuccessfully trying to bribe and then intimidate Paul into silence during the confrontation, Martindale defamed the Allens immediately. But, the cat was out of the bag.
The rest is history.
But, there were many who went before him who were either bribed, or if they stood up against it, were immediately and profoundly isolated from the "household" and defamed.
But I do agree: If you knew about it-- and I mean you knew with certainty and not via rumor-- yet said nothing, you succumbed to cowardice and helped facilitate the molestation and abuse.
The Allens were the first blow this dirty little cult out of the water
No, they were not...they were the first ones others would listen to.
quote:
Before that there were people that knew of or had even been raped that never said a word.
Maybe...but I was not one of the silent ones...and my family experienced firsthand much of what Catcup has described...and we weren't corps or anything.
quote:
It is not the people who knew that are to blame here. They had their reasons to be quiet it is the ones that have been exposed that are to be blamed.
I disagree totally.
There are many children...my daughter included...who have been scarred for life because people who knew kept silent...or worse.
If you do know what is going on, what would be the reasons to be quiet?
In order to safely get your family out of harm's way first. To do what you can first to try to save your marriage, or your children, your brother, or your sister, and get them out of danger.
Once that is accomplished, or if you find they will not listen to you, you need to get out and speak out.
Thanks for the corrections. I wont ever forget. :)-->
I was referring to why so many knew what was going on and did not speak a thing about it was:
1.) They were involved getting women for these monsters.
2.) They feared twi that much and what would happen to them.
It was very deep spiritualy and the darkness of it all was and is known to a few that ran the ring or the victims.
When I posted about the Allen's. They did blow the roof off of the whole place (twi) by making it ever so public and that can't be denied. Yes some spoke out and warned people but the magnatude of what the Allen case did to expose twi made it well known for all to see. I also know people did confront twi about the misdeeds and they were left broken individuls and families.
I really did not mean to step on any toes and am greatly saddned for what thousands endured at the hands of these people. I despise them (twi) as much as you do.
When I left I had no idea what was going on but I did think twi was not on the up'n up about a lot of things. I did not have any proof for myself until waydale. To this day if I am ever asked about twi I will "scream" of what a rotten to the core and destructive cult they are and send them here to read for themselves.
You are exactly correct in specifying first things first: "In order to safely get your family out of harm's way first. To do what you can first to try to save your marriage, or your children, your brother, or your sister, and get them out of danger."
Nobody can help anybody if they or their families/loved ones are not safe...The Way International will go to ALL lengths to make sure of this!
This is a hard subject for me...but it is important to me for people who may be aware of things but keep silent to know that there are ways to speak out...and that speaking out is saving lives.
The only point I was trying to make is exactly what Catcup said so much better than I said it: Get Out and then Speak Out.
Justloafing, there's another category of people who knew and didn't speak out. That's people like Moneyhands, who knew and his wife counseled rape victims. They didn't speak out because they didn't want to get kicked out and have to start working at real jobs in the real world. They keep their mouth shut for the money. Too easy to bribe.
Chef, I think I opened that can of worms. Yeah I know what you mean about trying to get people to come to twi. I believe God knows the heart in which you did it (with the heart of a child) ;)-->
And Belle is correct about that other category. There are an entire subset of people who knew what was going on, and sold their souls in order to keep their jobs-- Not to mention the class of people who believed what Martindale and Wierwille was doing was not only ok, but biblically permissable!
This class of people have no conscience and cannot be trusted. They would sell the house right out from under their own mother to give it to The Way, for self-preservation and self-gratification.
Justloafing, there's another category of people who knew and didn't speak out. That's people like Moneyhands, who knew and his wife counseled rape victims. They didn't speak out because they didn't want to get kicked out and have to start working at real jobs in the real world. They keep their mouth shut for the money. Too easy to bribe.
Lest we forget,
yet ANOTHER category of people exists.
They are people who found out-had wives, sisters, sisters-in-law, daughters, cousins,
etc who were raped or molested-
yet faced that situation by deciding
their perfect worldview of twi was MORE important than
truth, loved ones, Biblical application, and so on.
So, they made the voluntary decision to withdraw from REAL VICTIMS who were their
"loved ones" (what a misnomer!) in order to avoid charging FELONS with a FELONY,
saying it was "that the ministry be not blamed!" (No, that means that the minister
does not commit a FELONY, not that you aid and abet a FELON.)
So, there are victims out there who were blamed by family, called liars by family,
shoved aside by family, for that reason. I find it almost beyond belief that such
people exist, but they do. These are often people who have the most difficulty
dealing with posts like "vpw raped and molested young women" without blaming the victims
of the FELONIES without
A) calling them liars
B) saying the numbers of FELONY victims at his hands are exaggerated
C) he molested them for their own good -to toughen them up spiritually
D) saying all God's ministers commit felonies-so what
E) God's criminal ministers confess to God once, then there's no other consequence to
their crime-to the FELON, the victim is still in therapy
F) why focus on a felon's felonies?
and so on.
Yes, each of those stratagems I mentioned were ALL from posts at the GSC.
WW, this kind of stuff STILL GOES ON!! I know of a CHILD (not a teen, not a college student, but a CHILD) who was sexually assaulted by someone in TWI AT A TWI FUNCTION.
NOT ONE PERSON CALLED THE COPS!!! NOT EVEN THE PARENT OF THIS CHILD!! This parent was content to let TWI "take care of the situation" which was to move the assaulted child's family to a different fellowship.
So, there are victims out there who were blamed by family, called liars by family,
shoved aside by family, for that reason. I find it almost beyond belief that such
people exist, but they do. These are often people who have the most difficulty
dealing with posts like "vpw raped and molested young women" without blaming the victims
of the FELONIES without
A) calling them liars
B) saying the numbers of FELONY victims at his hands are exaggerated
C) he molested them for their own good -to toughen them up spiritually
D) saying all God's ministers commit felonies-so what
E) God's criminal ministers confess to God once, then there's no other consequence to
their crime-to the FELON, the victim is still in therapy
F) why focus on a felon's felonies?
WW, my ex calls them liars AND says, IF it happened we can't blame the ministry for what PEOPLE do. "The ministry would be perfect if it weren't for people" is his mantra. Makes you sick, doesn't it?
Certainly in recent decades the slogans that were bandied about got all convoluted. However, many original ones were well grounded in truth.
I took great comfort in (and still do) that IN SPITE of people's flaws (leaders and followers) we were given something perfect that transcended people's flaws.
Remember that God is not mocked and no one gets away with cheating on Him or hurting His people. I trust God to even all scores. I reject all of man's (and women's) attempts to even the scores, and that's what most posters are attempting to do here with a lot of bad mouthing of others.
Every poster here shares the same human flaws as leaders of TWI. The main difference is that rarely did any of the posters here have the power to inflict those flaws on others. Now, with the power of the internet, many jump in to exercise that newfound power and more graphically inflict their flaws on others. The score that's being evened is not God's justice.
We flawed people should be very thankful that, in spite all of our flaws, God gave something flawless to us. Of course we have to closely examine what He gave us to see it. The decision as to what we focus on is the epitome of free will, and the most important kind of decision we can
make.
There's no peace in grinding an axe, and it's only in peace that good decisions can be made.
smikeol has spoken! All praise the Most! High!God! for He hath verily showered blessings upon us by giving us a Prophet! when we didn't even know we needed one. When we didn't even want one.
There's no need to fear! smikeol is here! He shall guide us OLGs around TVT, into the light of the True Piffle!!! If only docvic(praise be his name) were around to see it, with his abundance of Brains and Brawn, which may have served to make up for his lack of an eye. Oh, how the ground quaked! with every step he took! And now smikeol is here to trumpet the way of docvic(praise be his name).
But make sure you don't eat too much paste in the process.
Remember that God is not mocked and no one gets away with cheating on Him or hurting His people. I trust God to even all scores. I reject all of man's (and women's) attempts to even the scores, and that's what most posters are attempting to do here with a lot of bad mouthing of others.
I stand ashamed before the throne of the Most! High! God!
smikeol's words have cut me to the heart. Yea, verily, I must have upset smikeol very much.
Woe to those that mess with smikeol! For verily, it were better that a millstone were placed around their necks and they were cast into the sea! Such will one day be their rewards!
Do you all hear me now? smikeol hath said "Thou shalt not mess with the smikeol, for verily the Most! High! God! and docvic(praise be his name) don't much care for that kind of thing!"
I feel so bad, smikeol must be sniffling into his tissue still, after having been smited so stoutly.
Perhaps smikeol should heed the words of Simon the Lesser: "Don't go away mad! Just go away!" or the words of FDR: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
Quoted from Mike...Every poster here shares the same human flaws as leaders of TWI. The main difference is that rarely did any of the posters here have the power to inflict those flaws on others.
Bull **** Mike....
I have never EVER been tempted to drug or rape an indivdual for ANY reason, whether I had the power to do so or not.
I have never EVER been tempted to destroy someones life and reputation for dissapointing me sexually....
I have NEVER been tempted to rob people in God`s name...even remotely...
and lastly ...I have never ONCE been tempted to cover for a pedophile, and place them in a position to harm children yet again.
We are not LIKE the false prophets in twi, we are NOT the same as those ravening wolves seeking whom the might devour...
We do NOT share the same flaws as those people Mike, and I damn well resent being compared to them in ANY way fashion or shape.
You just want to find a way to minimalize the evil and excuse the heinous actions of viscious evil people....nobody buys it.
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justloafing
Chef, You make some good points but I have to say this for me. I too suspected something was going on but did not know for sure. I was even told there was a very stong possability there was something going on. I warned no one.
The facts are vp was showing porn to under aged kids and no one out of the thousands spoke up until either waydale of gsc.
The Allens were the first blow this dirty little cult out of the water Before that there were people that knew of or had even been raped that never said a word. It was a mind set atleast with the doggie video that we were seeing devil spirits at work and that was educational
--> .
The rape part and I am not even talking about the victims but the ones that knew. My guess they feared of what was going to happen to them. It was all of the devil and it was exposed in a big way finaly only after thousands had been abused.
It is not the people who knew that are to blame here. They had their reasons to be quiet it is the ones that have been exposed that are to be blamed.
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Catcup
There were people who spoke up before. But TWI has very effective ways of dealing with whistle-blowers.
When I was at Emporia, I walked in on two people who were married (but not to each other) in each other's arms, lying together on the floor of an isolated room in Kenyon Hall. I immediately went to the assistant Corps director (the actual CD was out of town) and told him what I found. The couples were met with, and the next thing I knew, I was turned on and accused of things I did not do.
At HQ and other places, many other people who found out about sexual misconduct or whose wives were the victims of sexual misconduct, confronted top leadership. However, they were immediately isolated and eliminated before they could have any impact upon "the household."
Many of the people who were regularly defamed at HQ lunch announcements and Corps nights, were people who had stood up face to face to the powers that be over some of these sexual issues, and were fired and defamed.
The moment LCM would be confronted, he would have the Safety department immediately escort that person off grounds. Safety would be immediately posted to supervise that person's bum's rush out of HQ.
While one person was still confronting the offending party, their spouse would be immediately isolated by the armed Safety department. They each would be isolated so no one could get to them and ask them any questions, nor could they talk to each other. Pressure would be applied to both parties to be quiet (with a bribe). Failing that, pressure would be put on the marriage, usually to get the woman to stay (of course) and get the man to leave (See Driven To Suicide). Failing even that, they would both be quickly dispatched. In any case, they were immediately totally isolated and escorted by the Safety department so they could not talk to anyone else and explain their sudden departure.
Their belongings would be packed up and pushed to the street within hours, sometmes minutes.
At the very next meal or even sooner, the person or the couple would be denounced as "possessed," leaving everyone astounded, and afraid to contact them for fear of being influenced by devil spirits.
Paul Allen was simply the wrong man for LCM to try to mess with. Paul had seen this bum's rush happen many times before, and knew what to do to avoid it. As soon as he found out what LCM had done, he immediately went into action.
He secured his wife first and packed up his belongings quickly and quietly, and got her off grounds and secretly sequestered away as soon as possible so no one could get to her, before anyone could be alerted. Only then did he go straight to LCM and confront him.
After unsuccessfully trying to bribe and then intimidate Paul into silence during the confrontation, Martindale defamed the Allens immediately. But, the cat was out of the bag.
The rest is history.
But, there were many who went before him who were either bribed, or if they stood up against it, were immediately and profoundly isolated from the "household" and defamed.
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Catcup
But I do agree: If you knew about it-- and I mean you knew with certainty and not via rumor-- yet said nothing, you succumbed to cowardice and helped facilitate the molestation and abuse.
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CoolWaters
No, they were not...they were the first ones others would listen to.
Maybe...but I was not one of the silent ones...and my family experienced firsthand much of what Catcup has described...and we weren't corps or anything.
I disagree totally.
There are many children...my daughter included...who have been scarred for life because people who knew kept silent...or worse.
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Catcup
If you do know what is going on, what would be the reasons to be quiet?
In order to safely get your family out of harm's way first. To do what you can first to try to save your marriage, or your children, your brother, or your sister, and get them out of danger.
Once that is accomplished, or if you find they will not listen to you, you need to get out and speak out.
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justloafing
Thanks for the corrections. I wont ever forget.
:)-->
I was referring to why so many knew what was going on and did not speak a thing about it was:
1.) They were involved getting women for these monsters.
2.) They feared twi that much and what would happen to them.
It was very deep spiritualy and the darkness of it all was and is known to a few that ran the ring or the victims.
When I posted about the Allen's. They did blow the roof off of the whole place (twi) by making it ever so public and that can't be denied. Yes some spoke out and warned people but the magnatude of what the Allen case did to expose twi made it well known for all to see. I also know people did confront twi about the misdeeds and they were left broken individuls and families.
I really did not mean to step on any toes and am greatly saddned for what thousands endured at the hands of these people. I despise them (twi) as much as you do.
When I left I had no idea what was going on but I did think twi was not on the up'n up about a lot of things. I did not have any proof for myself until waydale. To this day if I am ever asked about twi I will "scream" of what a rotten to the core and destructive cult they are and send them here to read for themselves.
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CoolWaters
Catcup,
You are exactly correct in specifying first things first: "In order to safely get your family out of harm's way first. To do what you can first to try to save your marriage, or your children, your brother, or your sister, and get them out of danger."
Nobody can help anybody if they or their families/loved ones are not safe...The Way International will go to ALL lengths to make sure of this!
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CoolWaters
Justloafing,
My apologies for coming off 'corrective'.
This is a hard subject for me...but it is important to me for people who may be aware of things but keep silent to know that there are ways to speak out...and that speaking out is saving lives.
The only point I was trying to make is exactly what Catcup said so much better than I said it: Get Out and then Speak Out.
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Belle
Justloafing, there's another category of people who knew and didn't speak out. That's people like Moneyhands, who knew and his wife counseled rape victims. They didn't speak out because they didn't want to get kicked out and have to start working at real jobs in the real world. They keep their mouth shut for the money. Too easy to bribe.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
damn i didn't realize just how nazi that place became.
i appologize if i have opened up any wounds and i have to say i am real sorry to anyone i witnessed to and to anyone who sat in the classes i ran
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justloafing
Chef, I think I opened that can of worms. Yeah I know what you mean about trying to get people to come to twi. I believe God knows the heart in which you did it (with the heart of a child)
;)-->
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Catcup
JL-- my toes are just fine.
;)-->
No damage done here.
And Belle is correct about that other category. There are an entire subset of people who knew what was going on, and sold their souls in order to keep their jobs-- Not to mention the class of people who believed what Martindale and Wierwille was doing was not only ok, but biblically permissable!
This class of people have no conscience and cannot be trusted. They would sell the house right out from under their own mother to give it to The Way, for self-preservation and self-gratification.
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Steve!
And the proof of that is how they treated Dorothea Wierwille.
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Catcup
Correctomundo my friend.
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WordWolf
Lest we forget,
yet ANOTHER category of people exists.
They are people who found out-had wives, sisters, sisters-in-law, daughters, cousins,
etc who were raped or molested-
yet faced that situation by deciding
their perfect worldview of twi was MORE important than
truth, loved ones, Biblical application, and so on.
So, they made the voluntary decision to withdraw from REAL VICTIMS who were their
"loved ones" (what a misnomer!) in order to avoid charging FELONS with a FELONY,
saying it was "that the ministry be not blamed!" (No, that means that the minister
does not commit a FELONY, not that you aid and abet a FELON.)
So, there are victims out there who were blamed by family, called liars by family,
shoved aside by family, for that reason. I find it almost beyond belief that such
people exist, but they do. These are often people who have the most difficulty
dealing with posts like "vpw raped and molested young women" without blaming the victims
of the FELONIES without
A) calling them liars
B) saying the numbers of FELONY victims at his hands are exaggerated
C) he molested them for their own good -to toughen them up spiritually
D) saying all God's ministers commit felonies-so what
E) God's criminal ministers confess to God once, then there's no other consequence to
their crime-to the FELON, the victim is still in therapy
F) why focus on a felon's felonies?
and so on.
Yes, each of those stratagems I mentioned were ALL from posts at the GSC.
(Including the "toughen them up" stuff.)
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Belle
WW, this kind of stuff STILL GOES ON!! I know of a CHILD (not a teen, not a college student, but a CHILD) who was sexually assaulted by someone in TWI AT A TWI FUNCTION.
NOT ONE PERSON CALLED THE COPS!!! NOT EVEN THE PARENT OF THIS CHILD!! This parent was content to let TWI "take care of the situation" which was to move the assaulted child's family to a different fellowship.
And they call us "without natural affection"
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Belle
WW, my ex calls them liars AND says, IF it happened we can't blame the ministry for what PEOPLE do. "The ministry would be perfect if it weren't for people" is his mantra. Makes you sick, doesn't it?
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CoolWaters
Yes...but in a very interesting twist of fate...no people is exactly what would make twi perfect...because then twi would be dead.
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Belle
That, and they then speak out of the other side of their mouth saying the ministry IS the people..... Grrrrrr!
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Mike
Certainly in recent decades the slogans that were bandied about got all convoluted. However, many original ones were well grounded in truth.
I took great comfort in (and still do) that IN SPITE of people's flaws (leaders and followers) we were given something perfect that transcended people's flaws.
Remember that God is not mocked and no one gets away with cheating on Him or hurting His people. I trust God to even all scores. I reject all of man's (and women's) attempts to even the scores, and that's what most posters are attempting to do here with a lot of bad mouthing of others.
Every poster here shares the same human flaws as leaders of TWI. The main difference is that rarely did any of the posters here have the power to inflict those flaws on others. Now, with the power of the internet, many jump in to exercise that newfound power and more graphically inflict their flaws on others. The score that's being evened is not God's justice.
We flawed people should be very thankful that, in spite all of our flaws, God gave something flawless to us. Of course we have to closely examine what He gave us to see it. The decision as to what we focus on is the epitome of free will, and the most important kind of decision we can
make.
There's no peace in grinding an axe, and it's only in peace that good decisions can be made.
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Steve!
smikeol has spoken! All praise the Most! High!God! for He hath verily showered blessings upon us by giving us a Prophet! when we didn't even know we needed one. When we didn't even want one.
There's no need to fear! smikeol is here! He shall guide us OLGs around TVT, into the light of the True Piffle!!! If only docvic(praise be his name) were around to see it, with his abundance of Brains and Brawn, which may have served to make up for his lack of an eye. Oh, how the ground quaked! with every step he took! And now smikeol is here to trumpet the way of docvic(praise be his name).
But make sure you don't eat too much paste in the process.
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Mike
Remember that God is not mocked and no one gets away with cheating on Him or hurting His people. I trust God to even all scores. I reject all of man's (and women's) attempts to even the scores, and that's what most posters are attempting to do here with a lot of bad mouthing of others.
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Steve!
I stand ashamed before the throne of the Most! High! God!
smikeol's words have cut me to the heart. Yea, verily, I must have upset smikeol very much.
Woe to those that mess with smikeol! For verily, it were better that a millstone were placed around their necks and they were cast into the sea! Such will one day be their rewards!
Do you all hear me now? smikeol hath said "Thou shalt not mess with the smikeol, for verily the Most! High! God! and docvic(praise be his name) don't much care for that kind of thing!"
I feel so bad, smikeol must be sniffling into his tissue still, after having been smited so stoutly.
Perhaps smikeol should heed the words of Simon the Lesser: "Don't go away mad! Just go away!" or the words of FDR: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
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rascal
Quoted from Mike...Every poster here shares the same human flaws as leaders of TWI. The main difference is that rarely did any of the posters here have the power to inflict those flaws on others.
Bull **** Mike....
I have never EVER been tempted to drug or rape an indivdual for ANY reason, whether I had the power to do so or not.
I have never EVER been tempted to destroy someones life and reputation for dissapointing me sexually....
I have NEVER been tempted to rob people in God`s name...even remotely...
and lastly ...I have never ONCE been tempted to cover for a pedophile, and place them in a position to harm children yet again.
We are not LIKE the false prophets in twi, we are NOT the same as those ravening wolves seeking whom the might devour...
We do NOT share the same flaws as those people Mike, and I damn well resent being compared to them in ANY way fashion or shape.
You just want to find a way to minimalize the evil and excuse the heinous actions of viscious evil people....nobody buys it.
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