I loved God and the bible since i was a young man. Then became involved with tw. I appreciate having immersed myself in the scriptures during tw period. I learned from other christians many, many things. I grew in my personal relationship with God. Met some whom were men and women of principle.
The bad: i now longer want to fellowship in a structured setting. I believe it is the perfect setting for RELIGION. I'm taken back how many of us put our heart and souls into handling the word of God honestly while those responsable to us and for us refused to. I did not, nor do i now think it is "sinful" to error in interpretaion. I do believe it is sinful to ignore or refuse to take a second closer look at our "research", less we be found WRONG.
I am appalled and hurt that while many of us gladly cared for others and the ministry, another group cared only for themselves and led many others down the path of self deception, dishonesty and ultimately only concerned about covering their tracks.
"There is no use trying" said Alice, "one can't believe impossible things".
"I dare say, you haven?t had much practice" said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast".
[This message was edited by JeffMedic on November 09, 2003 at 3:55.]
I think I've become more acutely aware of birthdays, when they are to be celebrated, and when happy ones are to be wished for on behalf of those going through one. Take you, for instance. Happy birthday.
Sorry for the derail, but I thought it would be cute.
One good thing I got out of my (very limited) time in TWI was a skepticism for authority. Interestingly enough, because of the specific timing of my involvement (fall 1998 - summer 1989), I was able to learn firsthand not to trust anyone just because of their title. Came in handy a few years later when it seemes a bunch of people were ready to follow Chris Geer like the Pied Piper of Godknowsnuttin.
During the time I was in the way, I had lots of good experiences, lived in some cool places. I have some "bonding" with high school friends that I got in the way with and we are now out.
But the bad was so bad. Of course I didn't think so at the time. Only in retrospect do I realize all the harm that was done.
Any good that happened was in spite of the way not because of it at all.
Hi Pat, I don't know if i can word this properly as to what i want to say, although it falls under the trust issue, i find it hard to trust people to be genuine, I am very suspicious of them, I am always looking for a motive behind what they are saying, I think because in TWI there was always a hidden agenda taped on to what they said, it was always for their own gain, never to benefit the invidual. Even when people tell you "I love you" I don't even believe it anymore, it was used too much in TWI that it became a cliche that no longer carried any weight when they told you, so when people tell me that, again I question the sincerity behind it, again it's a lack of trust.
to trust others takes the ability to trust yourself, ya know ? to know what you know what you know ( that was a joke) ok but my point is it was the leadership and the power plays that brought down people and how they trusted their own choices and decisions.
confident is built by the doing of an action , if you can allow yourself those times to try again someday anything can be achieved if you try then it is easy . vpw talked about a baby falling and getting up again trying again till the baby walked but then ... In twi if "you fell down" (made a mistake by their opinion you wouldnt be encouraged to get up and try again you got a bad bad thing..
The idea that christians could walk by the spirit was destroyed for an individual it had to be the group think idealism. It killed the role of Jesus christ in our lifes and many began following twi as Lord.
No one does knows us like God no one loves us as Jesus christ loves us yet some allowed twi to be both relationships in life.
then when people got hurt they blamed God and doubted Jesus could ever really care about them .
it was a cult and it was a lie .
God and Jesus christ are real and know each of us as a child and friend they truly love us and we can be confident now to trust them . I make alot of mistakes I have learned it is ok because God has a job to do in saving me to the uttermost and Jesus christ will never leave me or forsake me . I can trust myself now knowing I can trust them . Trusting others is easy as well because nothing eles really matters but the Love this life can bring with his creations.
I also think they put fear of the devil in peoples mind like the devil has so much power we need to be afraid of every person as they may be the devil him/her self . How stupid the devil fear. I truly believe that is christ job and the devil aint going to "get me" Jesus christ already told him who won, so he can play Im with the one who will destroy his games I think it is great life is good.
Thinking about this trust thing. I've said that I trust noone, but perhaps this is one of the places where it's not good to use the words 'always and never'. (and noone).
I have to trust some. I have to trust the busdriver that delivers my daughter and her class to the field trip, I have to trust the teachers to not trash my kids thinking process, I have to trust the mechanic that puts new brakes on my car, I have to trust the bank to put the $$ into my account. There are many many place where I have no choice, I have to trust.
But, what I've finally come to realize is that I can trust myself. Do my homework and hire a mechanic with a proven track record; check his referances, I can monitor my child's teachers and ask around; check their credentials and paperwork in the office. I can manage my bank records myself, I can go on the trips to the zoo with my kid. I can pop in at the Learning Center unannounced where my child goes after school, I can ask to see background checks on her caregivers. I can have some control over the people with whom she and I have interactions. That gives me the control that I HAVE to have.
What I don't have to do is allow people, or events into my life that I am not comfortable with or even a bit unsure of. I love that freedom to make that decision of my own accord. Going blindly into life and doing things just cuz leadership said it's ok is over, which was part of the point of leaving anyway, it's over. I have to trust a God that communicates with me and loves my girl and will tell me when something is amiss.
Where I can say always and never is in the realm of letting myself be so totally open and vunerable to the crap that gets thrown at me by people that offer to lead me blindly through their world. I will always never allow that again. Remember that line about screw me once, shame on you, twice, shame on me.
That is so true, shell, but now anyone that even says 'trust me' and I run. No need to tell me they are christian or not.
I agree, raf, I don't trust so blindly anymore. I think this is good. Its not good to be so vulnerable. I'm still in the process of learning. Not trusting blindly I think is really healthy.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
So, uh, how many churches have you guys been to? I mean are you saying this because you have tried going to church and found it to be just like "the cult?" or have you just made your assumptions bases soley on your TWI experiences?
I think the lesson Rafael learned is a good one: Don't "blindly" trust people. That's a healthy conclusion. Unfortunately, my own response to the TWI experience is not so healthy. I don't trust anybody. I don't like it this way, but that's where I'm at.
A lady I've known for years (also ex-Way) tells me that the reason I can't trust people now ... is because I don't trust God anymore. I don't think she's right. But it's an interesting idea.
Any thoughts on this? Any guidance on regaining trust?
And do you guys think the "Good" we got from TWI was worth it? I don't. -Pat
For the most part, trust has to be earned. If it is a minister, he must work to earn his congregation's trust. If it is a marriage relationship, there is a period of time before the marriage happens that trust is built. Either way, trust is built.
I don't believe that an inability to trust people means we can't or don't trust God. If anything, we learn that God is infallible and worthy of our trust. He never changes. When we believe all of this about God, there's no reason not to put our trust in Him.
With people, there is no way to know trust will be broken unless you see tell-tell signs but decide to trust anyway.
Do people trust their spouses the minute they laid eyes on them? Most likely not. There was a relationship built, and trust became a part of that relationship.
I just don't believe trust has to be something we have for just anybody. I don't believe this is jaded thinking either. People should have to prove themselves in order to have access to our hearts. IMHO--it is wise to guard your heart.
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JeffMedic
I loved God and the bible since i was a young man. Then became involved with tw. I appreciate having immersed myself in the scriptures during tw period. I learned from other christians many, many things. I grew in my personal relationship with God. Met some whom were men and women of principle.
The bad: i now longer want to fellowship in a structured setting. I believe it is the perfect setting for RELIGION. I'm taken back how many of us put our heart and souls into handling the word of God honestly while those responsable to us and for us refused to. I did not, nor do i now think it is "sinful" to error in interpretaion. I do believe it is sinful to ignore or refuse to take a second closer look at our "research", less we be found WRONG.
I am appalled and hurt that while many of us gladly cared for others and the ministry, another group cared only for themselves and led many others down the path of self deception, dishonesty and ultimately only concerned about covering their tracks.
"There is no use trying" said Alice, "one can't believe impossible things".
"I dare say, you haven?t had much practice" said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast".
[This message was edited by JeffMedic on November 09, 2003 at 3:55.]
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Raf
Pat,
I think I've become more acutely aware of birthdays, when they are to be celebrated, and when happy ones are to be wished for on behalf of those going through one. Take you, for instance. Happy birthday.
Raf
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year2027
God bless all
The good stuff was I begin to understand God's word and his love for my life
More good I learn how study the word for myself and walk by the holy spirit
There are more good things I can list like friends for life after life
As for the bad things that people I learn that to some Scripture and verse mean nothing when it comes to money
I lost the feeling that I belong somewhere and can be a part of something
There are more that I lost
Bless your heart
Roy
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Schwaigers
Raf, How did you know it is my birthday today? Very strange. -Pat
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vickles
BTW, happy birthday...I knew also because I'm signed up with another group that announced when your birthday was. How is it going?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Schwaigers
Vickles,
Huh? Another group? What am I missing? -Pat
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Raf
The oddlist, Pat.
Sorry for the derail, but I thought it would be cute.
One good thing I got out of my (very limited) time in TWI was a skepticism for authority. Interestingly enough, because of the specific timing of my involvement (fall 1998 - summer 1989), I was able to learn firsthand not to trust anyone just because of their title. Came in handy a few years later when it seemes a bunch of people were ready to follow Chris Geer like the Pied Piper of Godknowsnuttin.
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My3Cents
During the time I was in the way, I had lots of good experiences, lived in some cool places. I have some "bonding" with high school friends that I got in the way with and we are now out.
But the bad was so bad. Of course I didn't think so at the time. Only in retrospect do I realize all the harm that was done.
Any good that happened was in spite of the way not because of it at all.
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Schwaigers
Only a handfull of replies so far, but look at the consistent lasting effect:
Me - inability to trust anyone
Jeff - no longer fellowships with others
Year 2027 - "lost feeling that I belong somewhere and can be a part of something"
Rafael - not to trust
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Cowgirl
Hi Pat, I don't know if i can word this properly as to what i want to say, although it falls under the trust issue, i find it hard to trust people to be genuine, I am very suspicious of them, I am always looking for a motive behind what they are saying, I think because in TWI there was always a hidden agenda taped on to what they said, it was always for their own gain, never to benefit the invidual. Even when people tell you "I love you" I don't even believe it anymore, it was used too much in TWI that it became a cliche that no longer carried any weight when they told you, so when people tell me that, again I question the sincerity behind it, again it's a lack of trust.
Just my 2 cents
Cowgirl
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Raf
Pat,
I wouldn't say "not to trust." I would say, "not to trust blindly," or "not to put faith in titles."
But I think you got the gist.
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mj412
to trust others takes the ability to trust yourself, ya know ? to know what you know what you know ( that was a joke) ok but my point is it was the leadership and the power plays that brought down people and how they trusted their own choices and decisions.
confident is built by the doing of an action , if you can allow yourself those times to try again someday anything can be achieved if you try then it is easy . vpw talked about a baby falling and getting up again trying again till the baby walked but then ... In twi if "you fell down" (made a mistake by their opinion you wouldnt be encouraged to get up and try again you got a bad bad thing..
The idea that christians could walk by the spirit was destroyed for an individual it had to be the group think idealism. It killed the role of Jesus christ in our lifes and many began following twi as Lord.
No one does knows us like God no one loves us as Jesus christ loves us yet some allowed twi to be both relationships in life.
then when people got hurt they blamed God and doubted Jesus could ever really care about them .
it was a cult and it was a lie .
God and Jesus christ are real and know each of us as a child and friend they truly love us and we can be confident now to trust them . I make alot of mistakes I have learned it is ok because God has a job to do in saving me to the uttermost and Jesus christ will never leave me or forsake me . I can trust myself now knowing I can trust them . Trusting others is easy as well because nothing eles really matters but the Love this life can bring with his creations.
I also think they put fear of the devil in peoples mind like the devil has so much power we need to be afraid of every person as they may be the devil him/her self . How stupid the devil fear. I truly believe that is christ job and the devil aint going to "get me" Jesus christ already told him who won, so he can play Im with the one who will destroy his games I think it is great life is good.
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Shellon
Thinking about this trust thing. I've said that I trust noone, but perhaps this is one of the places where it's not good to use the words 'always and never'. (and noone).
I have to trust some. I have to trust the busdriver that delivers my daughter and her class to the field trip, I have to trust the teachers to not trash my kids thinking process, I have to trust the mechanic that puts new brakes on my car, I have to trust the bank to put the $$ into my account. There are many many place where I have no choice, I have to trust.
But, what I've finally come to realize is that I can trust myself. Do my homework and hire a mechanic with a proven track record; check his referances, I can monitor my child's teachers and ask around; check their credentials and paperwork in the office. I can manage my bank records myself, I can go on the trips to the zoo with my kid. I can pop in at the Learning Center unannounced where my child goes after school, I can ask to see background checks on her caregivers. I can have some control over the people with whom she and I have interactions. That gives me the control that I HAVE to have.
What I don't have to do is allow people, or events into my life that I am not comfortable with or even a bit unsure of. I love that freedom to make that decision of my own accord. Going blindly into life and doing things just cuz leadership said it's ok is over, which was part of the point of leaving anyway, it's over. I have to trust a God that communicates with me and loves my girl and will tell me when something is amiss.
Where I can say always and never is in the realm of letting myself be so totally open and vunerable to the crap that gets thrown at me by people that offer to lead me blindly through their world. I will always never allow that again. Remember that line about screw me once, shame on you, twice, shame on me.
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nolongerlurking
I learned that there are probably more good, decent, kindhearted people outside of church than inside of church.
nolongerlurking
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Shellon
oh my yes. When someone says "you can trust me, I'm a christian" I run. fast. in the other direction.
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vickles
That is so true, shell, but now anyone that even says 'trust me' and I run. No need to tell me they are christian or not.
I agree, raf, I don't trust so blindly anymore. I think this is good. Its not good to be so vulnerable. I'm still in the process of learning. Not trusting blindly I think is really healthy.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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JeffMedic
AMEN to that one "no longer"
JeffMedic
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ex10
So, uh, how many churches have you guys been to? I mean are you saying this because you have tried going to church and found it to be just like "the cult?" or have you just made your assumptions bases soley on your TWI experiences?
Inquiring minds want to know.....
:D-->
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TheEvan
I understand the sentiment, but my experience is quite the opposite.
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Watered Garden
Good:
Met my husband in TWI. 26+ years of great wonderful marriage.
Learned about a personal God who loves me. Learned to appreciate/understand somewhat the Bible.
Learned ethics and morals and a standard I can follow/believe in.
Bad:
I am much more leery of anyone who could be considered "leadership" and distrustful of many people.
Sometimes I am very confused about issues such as the Trinity.
I have little confidence in myself and view myself in a negative light on many occasions.
WG
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Schwaigers
I think the lesson Rafael learned is a good one: Don't "blindly" trust people. That's a healthy conclusion. Unfortunately, my own response to the TWI experience is not so healthy. I don't trust anybody. I don't like it this way, but that's where I'm at.
A lady I've known for years (also ex-Way) tells me that the reason I can't trust people now ... is because I don't trust God anymore. I don't think she's right. But it's an interesting idea.
Any thoughts on this? Any guidance on regaining trust?
And do you guys think the "Good" we got from TWI was worth it? I don't. -Pat
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Nottawayfer
For the most part, trust has to be earned. If it is a minister, he must work to earn his congregation's trust. If it is a marriage relationship, there is a period of time before the marriage happens that trust is built. Either way, trust is built.
I don't believe that an inability to trust people means we can't or don't trust God. If anything, we learn that God is infallible and worthy of our trust. He never changes. When we believe all of this about God, there's no reason not to put our trust in Him.
With people, there is no way to know trust will be broken unless you see tell-tell signs but decide to trust anyway.
Do people trust their spouses the minute they laid eyes on them? Most likely not. There was a relationship built, and trust became a part of that relationship.
I just don't believe trust has to be something we have for just anybody. I don't believe this is jaded thinking either. People should have to prove themselves in order to have access to our hearts. IMHO--it is wise to guard your heart.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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cheranne
I was thinking this morning about the lasting effects on the cult experience,and I was thinking about
how other people are STILL going thru the turmoil and oppression of not being truely free in there mind
of this twisted mess.
Alot of us here are long gone away from that and have recovered but there are people still just coming
out of TWI and realizing that they need help and support,whether they believe in a God or not humans
need human support.
Lets not forget where we were and how we felt ,in the after effects..that residue of cult bacteria is long
lasting in our system and takes time to filter out.
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