I guess I could have titled the thread, "Whose Sin IS It?"
excuse me for a moment, just checking punctuation... okay.
The birth, life, ministry, message, miracles, passion, death, resurrection and ascension of Mr. Jesus Christ might be our unmentioned metaphors. I suggest that my metaphors can beat up your metaphor, and send it running back home whining to its mama ("Original Sin").
Resurrection trumps retribution.
Okay, okay, not in real life. You've got me there. "Christ in you, the hope of glory,... filled with power... more than conquerors..." a Christian's spiritual currency holds about as much dynamic, discernible, demonstrable, deliverable value, in the real world, as Monopoly money.
That raises the question posed in my thread. Why is that?
If the spirit of God dwells in the born again believer (and not just TWI'ers, but the world over), why does it appear to be dormant, or at best, latent?
Is that God's intention? If so, who are we to argue?
If not, shouldn't we admit we don't seem to be moving, get out, lift up the hood, roll up our sleeves, and figure out why all this potential horsepower isn't making a difference where the rubber meets the road?
by focusing on the way things are said rather then what is said is a good way to miss the message
just cause it's not said the way you prefer doesn't mean that what is said is not of value
Jesus talked in many ways...
Would you reject his words because you don't understand it by the way he said it or would you at least consider them...
I haven't been following this thread too closely, but, CM, I have to say that sounds exactly like the rhetoric we got from lCM. Interesting initials.....
He also said he yelled because he cared.
If someone is in my face or yelling at me, I can guaran-d*m-tee you I will NOT even try to get their message. I'm through with letting people condescend, insult, verbally attack and otherwise attempt to communicate with me in an infantile, cold, insulting way.
Speaking in KJV English makes it sound like someone is just parrotting whatever they've been told. It doesn't necessarily inspire confidence in the intelligence and reasoning capacity of an individual. We got real good at not thinking but rather answering questions with the learned responses we got in TWI. Just my observations....YMMV.
I know you weren't yelling. And I know you weren't being anything like Craig Martindale.
Ever hear an Amish conversation? (Forgive me if it isn't them, but this community abounds in Pennsylvania.) They use "thee," for you, and so on.
"Hello CM. How art thou?"
Kinda creepy, in a nice way, isn't it?
When you say stuff like "the carnal mind is at enmity..." and "And as spiritual Wisdom rises, which is Christ, the fleshly, carnal, selfish thoughts begin to die," it rings a little strange, not unlike Amish conversation.
I know what you mean, but instead of you speaking from experience, I'm hearing scripture being recited from memory.
I want to know what you think in your own words, not in somebody else's. I want to know what your experience was in our common language, not old English. (Okay, it's not true Old English, but what else do you call it?)
So this is not to offend, and I'm sorry if any has been taken. It is to ask for your indulgence. That's all.
The Bible is a spiritual book and must be understood spiritually rather then just what is on the surface. Verses come to memory because they apply to what I'm talking about.
Sure it sounds strange to some. But there it is in the scriptures. I intend to explore more of it and understand more.
We have been taught that death is a bad thing. In the context of what I was saying it's a very good thing.
"Christ in you, the hope of glory,... filled with power... more than conquerors..." a Christian's spiritual currency holds about as much dynamic, discernible, demonstrable, deliverable value, in the real world, as Monopoly money.
That raises the question posed in my thread. Why is that?
Honestly, I think that's unique to Wierwillianism, and whoever influenced his theology. Most of Christianity accepts suffering; some sects even welcome it. The gospels, and even the epistles (if memory serves), indicate the promise of power will be fulfilled in the future, not in the present.
I don't pray. Haven't for a long, long time. So I'm not seeking the "power" that I once thought was my "sonship right." I like Christianity, always have, but I don't take it literally anymore. You asked about faith earlier. I'm willing to accept the definition in Hebrews that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." How that translates to me (Invisible Dan, you'll like my "modern" version, totally unscriptural, I'm sure, but it works for me) is that all the unsee-able things -- like kindness, hope, peace, trust -- exist for the person with faith, the person who continues to reach for all that is good, even while living in a world that undermines goodness. I'm not looking to change the course of the planets, or to speak for God, or to exhibit supernatural powers. God can be God. It's enough for me to be me. I'm not looking for more.
Anyway, maybe I'll take some more time to think about it this week while I'm sittin' at the dock of the bay, wastin' time . . . under my beach umbrella, with a stack of novels on one side of me, and the ocean breeze on the other, with nothing pressing to do than to be . . . watchin' the tide roll away.
ok, what if, and I'm just saying "what if' suffering is not a bad thing. Having grown up Catholic, please forgive me, but what if suffering is really a good thing that "cleanses" us and bringx us closer to our maker.
What if sacrifice (a totally biblical concept by the way) happens to be a good thing, instead of a bad thing?
"Christ in you, the hope of glory,... filled with power... more than conquerors..." a Christian's spiritual currency holds about as much dynamic, discernible, demonstrable, deliverable value, in the real world, as Monopoly money.
That raises the question posed in my thread. Why is that?
Honestly, I think that's unique to Wierwillianism, and whoever influenced his theology.
It's quite possible. But then why would scriptures bring up anything about miracles and "dunamis" at all? Another metaphor?
Experience would confirm it. I'd like to think there was more to it, even if we've gotten much of it wrong.
Hope springs eternal, I guess.
I like the Hebrews verse, although your reading is quite different than mine has been. My focus was always on "substance" and "evidence," and the apparent promise they held for a delivery at my doorstep. I get back to experiences that I might call "teasers." Patterns of events that indicate, to me at least, that there is some causal connection between the physical and spiritual, and in addition, human consciousness.
Thanks for your post.
Have a good vacation. I'll be doing the same, though I'm not gonna get much reading done.
and laleo, please drink something with an umbrella, and a plastic sword with pineapple, orange slice, And a cherry sticking out of the top if it. Cheers!
How that translates to me (Invisible Dan, you'll like my "modern" version, totally unscriptural, I'm sure, but it works for me) is that all the unsee-able things -- like kindness, hope, peace, trust -- exist for the person with faith, the person who continues to reach for all that is good, even while living in a world that undermines goodness. I'm not looking to change the course of the planets, or to speak for God, or to exhibit supernatural powers. God can be God. It's enough for me to be me. I'm not looking for more.
I like your "modern" version a lot.
The first century may be a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.
:)-->
quote:
Anyway, maybe I'll take some more time to think about it this week while I'm sittin' at the dock of the bay, wastin' time . . . under my beach umbrella, with a stack of novels on one side of me, and the ocean breeze on the other, with nothing pressing to do than to be . . . watchin' the tide roll away.
The Geek-in-me has recently become obsessed with watching (again) Hitchcock's "Vertigo".
A dark-humored technicolor painting, and that score by Bernard Herrmann is freaky.
What if, and I repeat 'what if?" good ole human kindness and compassion took the place of all the promises of "power?"
So, shoot me. :D-->
If that's the answer, then so be it.
Why would "power" need to be incompatible with "love?"
My "theory" is that they are inseparable. Or putting theories aside, they just oughta be, dang it.
"...the spirit of power, and of love, and of a sound mind..."
Why wouldn't all three go together, a "trinity" if you will? Three-in-one.
That's not to say you can't experience love and be a bit crazy, or fail to "manifest pah-whirr frum-mawn hah!" But that none is complete without the other two, as my theory goes. (It's great to have opinions and theories again. I've been out of TWI for... ever, now, but I remember how nothing important was suitable, or even authorized, for speculation. Opinions were dangerous, and unadvisable.)
I also suspect there is an order in which the three proceed. A sound mind, which is to say "peace" must come first. (Peace may itself follow from the direct realization of being loved, "perfectly," as someone like, say, God might love us.) Love, not simply expressed, but revealed and radiant, comes next. Power, the manifestation of love, follows as loves natural expression.
I think the whole shabang goes down the terlit when we fail to understand these words, and that understanding does not come from a dictionary. Without spiritual understanding, you may as well chant from a phone book as pray. Your attention is not on God. It's on you-making-nice-words-to-your-mental-sketch-of-God. "Aren't I special?" you think. "God would have to look far and wide to find someone who can pray this well!" And yes, you are too precious for words.
If the bible is a spiritual book (some of us have expressed reservations), wouldn't its every important concept require a spiritual context to be understood? And (I'm loathe to march in Wierwille's familiar Greek here, but...) understanding is the ginosko variety. A direct experience/revelation. The "glass, darkly" through which we see may be the physical/temporal context in which we attempt understanding spiritual experience.
And we should try -if we can- to approach "revelation" as if we hadn't ever heard Vic utter the word.
We might think of "revelation" here as "satori," to borrow a less familiar Japanese term - defined by me as "a moment's insight where all the pieces seem to fit together." (You might not know it, but I've always liked that word.)
"a moment's insight where all the pieces seem to fit together."
I think the key phrase in all this is "seems to". I think that is where many actually went with "the revelation manifestations" in the ministry- some were convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had the inside skinny about EVERYTHING in your life. Usually it detailed "whose fault is it?" Usually they were dead wrong.
I'm not saying that you can't have a real experience of this sort. I have a couple times, everything seemed to make sense- just doesn't seem to last very long..
Clay, I apologize. As I'm sure you can tell, your post struck a nerve. :)--> I still have quite a bit of waybrain and knee jerk reactions sometimes happen. Fortunately they are getting to be fewer and farther between.
I typically stay away from these kinds of discussions (why is another story for another day), but these are just a few of the things rumbling through my brain as I've been reading the past few pages:
Satori:
quote:
My focus was always on "substance" and "evidence," and the apparent promise they held for a delivery at my doorstep. I get back to experiences that I might call "teasers." Patterns of events that indicate, to me at least, that there is some causal connection between the physical and spiritual, and in addition, human consciousness.
Is this akin to "seeking after signs" and having a "let me see then I'll believe" mentality that is shunned in the Bible? Dunno, just asking.....remember it could be waybrain making me think this way.
I do think that we can't pigeon hole things that happen or try to see them as all black or white. When something bad happens these days I tend to think...."ok, did I do something wrong or make a bad decision?" If I didn't, then I chalk it up as a "#2 brown stuff happens" thing, deal with it and move on.
My roof had to be replaced after the hurricanes. TWI could consider me weak and not believing for my house to be protected or an attack of the adversary because I was hosting a class in my house....depending on the situation. I choose to think that my roof was in perfectly good condition before the storms and not needing immediate replacement. Once the hurricanes came through, it did need to be replaced. Brown Stuff Happens! I deal with it - get a new roof and move on. No biggie.
We learned to overanalyze and pick things to death in TWI. I may be wrong or becoming too simplistic, but I choose not to do that anymore.
We can all pretty much agree on what "love" and "a sound mind" mean. It seems the thing many differ on is the definition of "power".
In light of this thread, I tend to see the power as power to take care of ourselves and our relationship with God. Power to keep anger and hate and other negative thoughts/feelings in check (not to ignore them). Power to keep our minds thinking and functioning soundly. Power to love despite the consequences and outcome.....
Nothing like the materialistic, dictatorship and God controlling power that we were taught in TWI. What kind of power did Jesus have? Power to HEAL, power to RAISE PEOPLE FROM THE DEAD, power to LOVE.... Not the kind of power we were taught.
Focusing on substance is not necessarily looking for signs if you are looking for truth. Knowing what it isn't helps too.
Twi had substance but very little truth. Their substance was man's interpretation of scripture. And a great lack of self-control.
We are to learn the scriptures and let God show us what he is saying.
The carnal mind or carnalmindedness cannot see it. Nothing wrong with having the carnal mind at all. It's part of the package that is built into us just like Spirit is built into us.
So the misunderstandings of many subjects in the scriptures is due to relying on the carnal thinking instead of the spiritual.
It's a process. We learn what we can from many angles and let the spirit show us. As the spirit shows us the truth the carnal-minded thinking of the meaning of a verse or subject is replaced with the greater truth that God wants us to see. So there you have where the "carnal man" dies in favor of the truth, spiritual understanding which is power.
Many people are at different points of spiritual understanding. We are to have respect and love for each other regardless. Communicating to each other can help a lot with spiritual growth.
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satori001
laleo,
Metaphor?
I guess I could have titled the thread, "Whose Sin IS It?"
excuse me for a moment, just checking punctuation... okay.
The birth, life, ministry, message, miracles, passion, death, resurrection and ascension of Mr. Jesus Christ might be our unmentioned metaphors. I suggest that my metaphors can beat up your metaphor, and send it running back home whining to its mama ("Original Sin").
Resurrection trumps retribution.
Okay, okay, not in real life. You've got me there. "Christ in you, the hope of glory,... filled with power... more than conquerors..." a Christian's spiritual currency holds about as much dynamic, discernible, demonstrable, deliverable value, in the real world, as Monopoly money.
That raises the question posed in my thread. Why is that?
If the spirit of God dwells in the born again believer (and not just TWI'ers, but the world over), why does it appear to be dormant, or at best, latent?
Is that God's intention? If so, who are we to argue?
If not, shouldn't we admit we don't seem to be moving, get out, lift up the hood, roll up our sleeves, and figure out why all this potential horsepower isn't making a difference where the rubber meets the road?
I love metaphors.
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CM
satori
by focusing on the way things are said rather then what is said is a good way to miss the message
just cause it's not said the way you prefer doesn't mean that what is said is not of value
Jesus talked in many ways...
Would you reject his words because you don't understand it by the way he said it or would you at least consider them...
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satori001
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Belle
I haven't been following this thread too closely, but, CM, I have to say that sounds exactly like the rhetoric we got from lCM. Interesting initials.....
He also said he yelled because he cared.
If someone is in my face or yelling at me, I can guaran-d*m-tee you I will NOT even try to get their message. I'm through with letting people condescend, insult, verbally attack and otherwise attempt to communicate with me in an infantile, cold, insulting way.
Speaking in KJV English makes it sound like someone is just parrotting whatever they've been told. It doesn't necessarily inspire confidence in the intelligence and reasoning capacity of an individual. We got real good at not thinking but rather answering questions with the learned responses we got in TWI. Just my observations....YMMV.
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satori001
There ya go, CM. An unsolicited opinion I'm sure you never expected.
To modify your point slightly: NOT focusing on the way things are said is a good way to cause people to miss the message.
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CM
I wasn't yelling...
Nor am I Craig Martindale.
The way things are said-
satori said that I was using King James english instead of my own. I just happen to understand what I said, King James english or not.
I am concerned about how I say things and that it communicates. But I can not do much about how it is received.
And there are more listening then you may expect.
Belle is recently out of twi and I understand exactly what she means. I have experienced the same or similar events myself.
I will not stop using King James english just cause that fool (lcm) did and abused it's heart.
If and when I can put it in different words I will cause I have that freedom to do so as well as everyone else.
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HCW
Whose fault is it?
Why its MY fault, of course. Just as my x-wives, they will tell u.
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satori001
CM,
I know you weren't yelling. And I know you weren't being anything like Craig Martindale.
Ever hear an Amish conversation? (Forgive me if it isn't them, but this community abounds in Pennsylvania.) They use "thee," for you, and so on.
"Hello CM. How art thou?"
Kinda creepy, in a nice way, isn't it?
When you say stuff like "the carnal mind is at enmity..." and "And as spiritual Wisdom rises, which is Christ, the fleshly, carnal, selfish thoughts begin to die," it rings a little strange, not unlike Amish conversation.
I know what you mean, but instead of you speaking from experience, I'm hearing scripture being recited from memory.
I want to know what you think in your own words, not in somebody else's. I want to know what your experience was in our common language, not old English. (Okay, it's not true Old English, but what else do you call it?)
So this is not to offend, and I'm sorry if any has been taken. It is to ask for your indulgence. That's all.
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CM
No offence taken at all from you or Belle.
And I understand what you are saying.
The Bible is a spiritual book and must be understood spiritually rather then just what is on the surface. Verses come to memory because they apply to what I'm talking about.
Sure it sounds strange to some. But there it is in the scriptures. I intend to explore more of it and understand more.
We have been taught that death is a bad thing. In the context of what I was saying it's a very good thing.
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CM
btw-my name is Clay Mannix...
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satori001
Nice to make your acquaintance, Clay.
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laleo
Honestly, I think that's unique to Wierwillianism, and whoever influenced his theology. Most of Christianity accepts suffering; some sects even welcome it. The gospels, and even the epistles (if memory serves), indicate the promise of power will be fulfilled in the future, not in the present.
I don't pray. Haven't for a long, long time. So I'm not seeking the "power" that I once thought was my "sonship right." I like Christianity, always have, but I don't take it literally anymore. You asked about faith earlier. I'm willing to accept the definition in Hebrews that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." How that translates to me (Invisible Dan, you'll like my "modern" version, totally unscriptural, I'm sure, but it works for me) is that all the unsee-able things -- like kindness, hope, peace, trust -- exist for the person with faith, the person who continues to reach for all that is good, even while living in a world that undermines goodness. I'm not looking to change the course of the planets, or to speak for God, or to exhibit supernatural powers. God can be God. It's enough for me to be me. I'm not looking for more.
Anyway, maybe I'll take some more time to think about it this week while I'm sittin' at the dock of the bay, wastin' time . . . under my beach umbrella, with a stack of novels on one side of me, and the ocean breeze on the other, with nothing pressing to do than to be . . . watchin' the tide roll away.
InvisibleDan, Thanks for your post.
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ex10
ok, what if, and I'm just saying "what if' suffering is not a bad thing. Having grown up Catholic, please forgive me, but what if suffering is really a good thing that "cleanses" us and bringx us closer to our maker.
What if sacrifice (a totally biblical concept by the way) happens to be a good thing, instead of a bad thing?
Then where are we?
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satori001
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ex10
I love you,dear.
please don't take it personally.
:)-->
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satori001
Experience would confirm it. I'd like to think there was more to it, even if we've gotten much of it wrong.
Hope springs eternal, I guess.
I like the Hebrews verse, although your reading is quite different than mine has been. My focus was always on "substance" and "evidence," and the apparent promise they held for a delivery at my doorstep. I get back to experiences that I might call "teasers." Patterns of events that indicate, to me at least, that there is some causal connection between the physical and spiritual, and in addition, human consciousness.
Thanks for your post.
Have a good vacation. I'll be doing the same, though I'm not gonna get much reading done.
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ex10
What if, and I repeat 'what if?" good ole human kindness and compassion took the place of all the promises of "power?"
So, shoot me.
:D-->
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ex10
and laleo, please drink something with an umbrella, and a plastic sword with pineapple, orange slice, And a cherry sticking out of the top if it. Cheers!
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TheInvisibleDan
I like your "modern" version a lot.
The first century may be a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.
The Geek-in-me has recently become obsessed with watching (again) Hitchcock's "Vertigo".
A dark-humored technicolor painting, and that score by Bernard Herrmann is freaky.
Thank you Laleo.
Danny
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satori001
Why would "power" need to be incompatible with "love?"
My "theory" is that they are inseparable. Or putting theories aside, they just oughta be, dang it.
"...the spirit of power, and of love, and of a sound mind..."
Why wouldn't all three go together, a "trinity" if you will? Three-in-one.
That's not to say you can't experience love and be a bit crazy, or fail to "manifest pah-whirr frum-mawn hah!" But that none is complete without the other two, as my theory goes. (It's great to have opinions and theories again. I've been out of TWI for... ever, now, but I remember how nothing important was suitable, or even authorized, for speculation. Opinions were dangerous, and unadvisable.)
I also suspect there is an order in which the three proceed. A sound mind, which is to say "peace" must come first. (Peace may itself follow from the direct realization of being loved, "perfectly," as someone like, say, God might love us.) Love, not simply expressed, but revealed and radiant, comes next. Power, the manifestation of love, follows as loves natural expression.
I think the whole shabang goes down the terlit when we fail to understand these words, and that understanding does not come from a dictionary. Without spiritual understanding, you may as well chant from a phone book as pray. Your attention is not on God. It's on you-making-nice-words-to-your-mental-sketch-of-God. "Aren't I special?" you think. "God would have to look far and wide to find someone who can pray this well!" And yes, you are too precious for words.
If the bible is a spiritual book (some of us have expressed reservations), wouldn't its every important concept require a spiritual context to be understood? And (I'm loathe to march in Wierwille's familiar Greek here, but...) understanding is the ginosko variety. A direct experience/revelation. The "glass, darkly" through which we see may be the physical/temporal context in which we attempt understanding spiritual experience.
And we should try -if we can- to approach "revelation" as if we hadn't ever heard Vic utter the word.
We might think of "revelation" here as "satori," to borrow a less familiar Japanese term - defined by me as "a moment's insight where all the pieces seem to fit together." (You might not know it, but I've always liked that word.)
-edited for grammatical clarification, etc-
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Ham
I think the key phrase in all this is "seems to". I think that is where many actually went with "the revelation manifestations" in the ministry- some were convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had the inside skinny about EVERYTHING in your life. Usually it detailed "whose fault is it?" Usually they were dead wrong.
I'm not saying that you can't have a real experience of this sort. I have a couple times, everything seemed to make sense- just doesn't seem to last very long..
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Belle
Clay, I apologize. As I'm sure you can tell, your post struck a nerve.
:)--> I still have quite a bit of waybrain and knee jerk reactions sometimes happen. Fortunately they are getting to be fewer and farther between.
I typically stay away from these kinds of discussions (why is another story for another day), but these are just a few of the things rumbling through my brain as I've been reading the past few pages:
Satori:
Is this akin to "seeking after signs" and having a "let me see then I'll believe" mentality that is shunned in the Bible? Dunno, just asking.....remember it could be waybrain making me think this way.
I do think that we can't pigeon hole things that happen or try to see them as all black or white. When something bad happens these days I tend to think...."ok, did I do something wrong or make a bad decision?" If I didn't, then I chalk it up as a "#2 brown stuff happens" thing, deal with it and move on.
My roof had to be replaced after the hurricanes. TWI could consider me weak and not believing for my house to be protected or an attack of the adversary because I was hosting a class in my house....depending on the situation. I choose to think that my roof was in perfectly good condition before the storms and not needing immediate replacement. Once the hurricanes came through, it did need to be replaced. Brown Stuff Happens! I deal with it - get a new roof and move on. No biggie.
We learned to overanalyze and pick things to death in TWI. I may be wrong or becoming too simplistic, but I choose not to do that anymore.
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Belle
We can all pretty much agree on what "love" and "a sound mind" mean. It seems the thing many differ on is the definition of "power".
In light of this thread, I tend to see the power as power to take care of ourselves and our relationship with God. Power to keep anger and hate and other negative thoughts/feelings in check (not to ignore them). Power to keep our minds thinking and functioning soundly. Power to love despite the consequences and outcome.....
Nothing like the materialistic, dictatorship and God controlling power that we were taught in TWI. What kind of power did Jesus have? Power to HEAL, power to RAISE PEOPLE FROM THE DEAD, power to LOVE.... Not the kind of power we were taught.
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CM
No problem Belle,
Focusing on substance is not necessarily looking for signs if you are looking for truth. Knowing what it isn't helps too.
Twi had substance but very little truth. Their substance was man's interpretation of scripture. And a great lack of self-control.
We are to learn the scriptures and let God show us what he is saying.
The carnal mind or carnalmindedness cannot see it. Nothing wrong with having the carnal mind at all. It's part of the package that is built into us just like Spirit is built into us.
So the misunderstandings of many subjects in the scriptures is due to relying on the carnal thinking instead of the spiritual.
It's a process. We learn what we can from many angles and let the spirit show us. As the spirit shows us the truth the carnal-minded thinking of the meaning of a verse or subject is replaced with the greater truth that God wants us to see. So there you have where the "carnal man" dies in favor of the truth, spiritual understanding which is power.
Many people are at different points of spiritual understanding. We are to have respect and love for each other regardless. Communicating to each other can help a lot with spiritual growth.
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