Originally posted by houseisarockin:So if what I am experiencing is a part of my past actions then if I change my actions this very moment it will catch up with me in time...Yes?
You've answered your own question.
In a cause and effect world, every action will cause a reaction.
The difficulty people have is with the idea of "cause," or free-will choices in a world of effect, this physical world where everything has a prior cause. If our choices are part of the physical world, they too have a prior cause. They aren't "free," then, are they?
Which came first the chicken or the egg? The initial free will choice started it out IMO. I wasn't before I was conceived. Then I was old enough to pick up a rattle and I started in on my free will. Thus beginning this journey of "cause and effect" IMO.
Everything is the effect of a prior cause, except where spirit intervenes.
I think spirit intervenes all the time, and there is plenty of evidence in our own lives to assure us of that.
We can't prove it to one another, only to ourselves, by observation. "Proof" may be too strong a word though. "Affirm" may be more realistic, more reasonable.
I barely keep up with what I can affirm much less the spiritual of which I am a limited participant in. But a participant of choosing (free will) to become a son of God. Nah, not ego just fact IMO.
Jesus was a physical guy. So what did he mean by "faith?" What did he mean by "believing?" Can they even be defined, or only perceived, apprehended, experienced? More importantly, to this thread, why did they work for him in this physical world of effect?
houseisarockin:
Positive thinking has been proven with or without the Word in the equation.
Long Gone:
Positive thinking has been proven to do what? Engender the sorts of miraculous healings the Bible attributes to Jesus? If so, then where can I go to read documented case studies?
Satori:
Positive thinking does modify behavior. I don't see where anything else was indicated.
Long Gone:
I do. House's statement was in reply to your question about faith (or "believing") working for Jesus "in this physical world of effect." In the Bible, Jesus didn't primarily relate faith to behavioral changes, but to manifestations of spiritual power (miracles) in the physical world.
The works of Jesus Christ far exceeded just the mentioned miracles and such. He faced every thought with one of absence of negatives. God didn't need to shoot him the juice for daily impacts he no doubt made.
This is a reply to ozbirdau's question: "If we don't get healed, is it our fault?" The answer got too long for a post, and became its own topic.
~And a fine topic for carry out. Thank you! A very noble effect of the cause. ~
Maybe some of you will find it entertaining. I do know what I'm talking about here, but I have no idea what I'm talking about. I did for a few moments, a long time ago.
~Seems I understand such words a brief pause to think in such a life time in which we are entertained by such extraordinary technological advances and the homeless, and the faminites, and the genocites, and the all of it all to ponder especially those atomisites and the Native Indian Nations that really don't exist in our USA and~ I think I'll just take a break here and have a tear, just one in each eye, both from the soul.~
Done editing for now. Additional changes will be in new posts.
B]~Dig it Dude!~[/b]
~INTERMEZZO I~
The obvious answer is this: the "promises" in the bible are NOT promises as we understand them. If the "simplicity" were simple, there would be no discussion. "Simplicity" just doesn't mean anything when it comes to spirituality.
~Then spirituality has much a hard time to define itself in this complicated world.~
Pretty much every faith teaches that the physical world must obey the spiritual world.
B]~I agree from what I have read over the years.~[/b]
You got cause. You got effect. Spirit is cause. The physical is effect.
~I am just going to agree that there is spirit. Whatever proof there may be, I can not prove, and will refrain from such extensive words that could be thousands and stay brief.~
Everything in the physical world is the effect of something else. So there is no true cause > effect relationship here in our world. Apparent causes are just the effect of another, prior effect.
~The butterfly effect resulting from the spiritual? The genuine cause is from the spiritual realm and we live in a realm of illusion? Does not the spiritual realm have its own "cause and effect" ? So, then, there is a genuine "cause" of all effect within just the two realms here mentioned? I would say the simplicity is very well entertained, but yet delightfully a song across the universe.~
Sickness is a physical affliction, so healing must be brought about either by a physical "cure" (an "effect" within the physical realm), or a spiritual decree (an external cause).
~This is way too much black & white for my taste here Dear Sir Satori. The human body (effect?/manifestation spirit realm?) is loaded with healing that even a splinter must give up its invasion. Ahhh~~~ maybe I am saying the same thing! Hmmm... I do have a story a serious accident that even the Dr's call "miraculous" . Hmmm~
INTERMEZZO II
Wierwille didn't teach believing in a vacuum. There are plenty of biblical references, and his teachings, mis-teachings and mistakes are discussed and dissected by Raf, Jerry Barrax, and others you can easily find. (I haven't read them because I have no further interest in Wierwille's prose and cons.)
~I empathize with you. I have read quite a bit the aforementioned posters, but seemed to me too much of my mind to invoke so many more hours regarding Biblical Research. I do respect their works, but it's like how many more times. Did ya know ya can peel as many onions ya want and not be effected by the toxic release if ya place a piece of bread on top of your head. Believe me that's true. I have a story about that one too!!! ~
What should be OBVIOUS to everyone, including a dying, one-eyed cancer victim once known as "Doctor," or "The Teacher," or "VP," is there is nothing at all "simple" about spiritual power, if it exists.
~I place a piece of bread on top of me head! The "OBVIOUS" seems illusive its existence.~
By if, I mean "spiritual power" and other such terms are terribly misleading because we have defined them in a phyisical context, as "effects." We can only define something as an effect. We live in a world consisting only of effects.
~Satori, why is it we can only define this spiritual power as an effect? Is it like the difference between finite and infinite? One defines the other but only in the realm of words. Words suffer at the hands of a spiritual power? Where then is the communication?
INTERMEZZO III
Everything in our world is an effect of something else. So our concept of something spiritual is inherently wrong. Spirit may "exist," but NOT as we think we know it, NOT as an aspect of our world. Spirit does not behave as we think it should. It doesn't "behave" at all, for that matter. Behavior is part of our world, not the spiritual.
~I disagree. Spirit does behave according to its realm "imposed" upon ours. Spirit does have behavior. Spirit does have limitations. Behavior is also a part of their world as well as ours. It's not a free for all. It's freedom according to rules. We understand the rules we have. Rather OBVIOUS. They seem to be made to be broken, but non the less rules.~
What is "believing?" It is supposedly the effect of: positive confession, prayer, single-mindedness, like-mindedness, "imagineering," "walking out on the promises," and a lot of other meaningless crap. (Not meaningless in our world, but meaningless, therefore ineffectual, to spirit.)
~I disagree. The spirit realm has to consider what is ineffectual to them is effectual to them.~
These "keys" are in turn the effect of your intention, or "will" (decision & desire in Wayspeak). They are the effect of your need, issue, problem, goal, etc. Which are the effects of circumstances, which are the effects of prior circumstances, those the effects of prior...
~Keys require locks. I really thinks keys are in our world and used by the spirit. AWWWW s h i t ~~~ this stuff is absolutely baffling at these specific times of heart.~
INTERMEZZO IV
What is "spirit?" If you tell me you know what it is, you're a liar. Nah, not really. You're only repeating a lie. And not really a lie, but an illusion by which we are perpetually deceived. You have descriptions, you have definitions, you have images and impressions. All are the effects of what you've been "taught" (and I use the term loosely). But you don't know jack ...., do you? And EVEN if you did, you'd know better than anyone that words fail utterly to describe what you think you know.
~I totally agree & disagree.~
And, class, out of what did Wierwille concoct his beliving formula? Words? Yep.
~Words. Ya know words have vibration.~
What is the bible, for that matter? Words? Yep... and not original words, but the approximations, of the gist, of the substance, of the vaguest inklings the competing committees of translators had of the prophet's original inspiration, if that's what it was.
~For brevity sake ~~~ I agree.~
INTERMEZZO V
And even the prophets were limited to words.
~The INFINITE into the Finite. Words beggar description. Words unlawful for to be spoken~~ or some think like that!~
The fact of the matter is, even if God had revealed Himself today, not on parchment, but in digital high-def video and Dolby 5.1 surround sound, we STILL wouldn't get it, because we live in the physical world. And we interpret everything we learn through that experiential filter. We are the effects of everything that led up to this moment.
~Even if a dead man or some think like that~
But spirit is cause. Not effect. We have no way to grasp true cause, a cause without a prior cause. We only know the chain of effect.
~I agree only if you talking the ultimate cause & effect. And I can only~~~
So... We can't do .... that isn't the effect of something else. Even our free will is an illusion, the expression of our accumulated baggage, which is what we "feel."
~Let's not despair, but I understand your , what I see as compassion.~
So you may ask, who am "I?" You are a little "assembly of gears," spun helplessly by countless other gears, great and small, and of which you have no knowledge.
~Hmmm. Big world of cause and effect and so dismal.~
"But, that's not what God intended!" your memory banks may output in protest. "I've been programmed to 'believe' I have free will! I refuse to update my software!"
~Cause & threat.~
You couldn't, so there's no argument, is there?
~Seems to me Satori you presenting a thought of arguement.~
So where did this idea of "free will" come from? How did it get into our software?
~It just happened. I had all my PC's given to me. That's for true.~
That's where spirit comes in. We don't know what it is because our processors can't process anything original. Spirit exists beyond the machinery of our mental and physical existence. This is why we can try, try, try to make spirit do our bidding, we just can't. The effect cannot dictate to its own cause. Can it? How could the physical world command the spirit? Ridiculous. Even our little processor/brains can get that.
There is a way out.
Anybody care to guess?
~And a fine topic for carry out. Thank you! A very noble effect of the cause. And where is that way out this Gordian knot of membranous labyrinth?
I truly appreciate what must have been a valiant effort to be brief. But consider how many readers you might have lost by tackling the entire initial post in one bite.
I will try to undo the "Gordian knot," by answering specific comments one at a time, as I get to them.
Meanwhile a topic like this, it seems to me, is more palatable served in small portions.
I don't want this thread to become a heroic but improbable quest into paradox and enigma for a few die-hards in a joust of epic-sized posts.
It will sink like a rock if that happens.
How about a conversation instead? Be as brief as you can. Write your post as if it were to everyone, not just me.
Yeah, I break my own rules. But I'm working on that.
CM, the content of your posts holds promise, but the mystical style you take on belies your sincerity.
Can you shake the meta-Christian lingo and just put it into the vernacular? It would go a long way toward making your message more accessible.
For instance, what do you mean by "carnal mind?" What do you mean by letting it "die?"
Stuff like that. Pretend we never sat through Wierwille's McDogma class and we live in contemporary America.
I'd really like to know what you're saying, but I have to "hear" it first. I haven't heard it yet. The voice you're using isn't your own. Am I right or wrong?
Hey, satori, I said something about the thread title earlier, then I changed my mind and deleted it because I thought I was being too nitpicky (even for me). But that dang "who's" is getting me out of fellowship. What are the chances of changing it to "Whose"?
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Other than that, if I say anything else, I'll end up breaking all your rules about brevity, metaphysical musings, and paradox. Oh, hell, might as well live dangerously, right?
Actually, my problem with the initial post (now that I can get beyond the title) is that it leaves out metaphor, specifically illness as metaphor. Before science, before medicine, before cure, illness meant something about the person experiencing it, and some of the character attachments seem random, in hindsight. People who were in asylums for tuberculosis, for instance, were romanticized. It was an affliction of the elite, of the passionately creative. Syphilis had other, more negative, associations. And on and on with the different illnesses. Even today, among self-help gurus, and metaphysical types, heart sufferers are thought to be "Type A" personalities, cancer sufferers, something else. Depression is often thought of as some type of divine suffering. But for the most part, medicine has taken the metaphor out of illness. Now, people with tuberculosis are cured so quickly, they don't have time to be stigmatized, to reflect on how they got themselves into their predicament, if they even did.
In some places, the Bible uses illness as a metaphor for sin, a reminder that we are fallen. Other things are used as metaphor, too. Material wealth, large armies, lots of cows and kids are metaphors for God's blessings.
So, anyway, I'm not really sure where cause and effect (or just effect and effect) fits into this. Germs cause illness. Penicillin kills the germs which cause the illness. Some illnesses don't have a cure, yet. Does that mean the metaphor is now irrelevant? I sure don't know.
Actually, my problem with the initial post (now that I can get beyond the title) is that it leaves out metaphor, specifically illness as metaphor. Before science, before medicine, before cure, illness meant something about the person experiencing it, and some of the character attachments seem random, in hindsight. People who were in asylums for tuberculosis, for instance, were romanticized. It was an affliction of the elite, of the passionately creative. Syphilis had other, more negative, associations. And on and on with the different illnesses. Even today, among self-help gurus, and metaphysical types, heart sufferers are thought to be "Type A" personalities, cancer sufferers, something else. Depression is often thought of as some type of divine suffering. But for the most part, medicine has taken the metaphor out of illness. Now, people with tuberculosis are cured so quickly, they don't have time to be stigmatized, to reflect on how they got themselves into their predicament, if they even did.
In some places, the Bible uses illness as a metaphor for sin, a reminder that we are fallen. Other things are used as metaphor, too. Material wealth, large armies, lots of cows and kids are metaphors for God's blessings.
So, anyway, I'm not really sure where cause and effect (or just effect and effect) fits into this. Germs cause illness. Penicillin kills the germs which cause the illness. Some illnesses don't have a cure, yet. Does that mean the metaphor is now irrelevant? I sure don't know.
Laleo,
I'm coming in on this more recent page, and admittedly haven't been following this entire discussion, but your last post was fascinating.
You used the word "stigmatized" -which in another form by itself - "stigmata" - lends further merit of your post, when imagining how captivated Christians become by a person bleeding from "supernatural" wounds on their hands, feet or head. And of course, many interpret these as replicating the wounds of Christ.
Suffering and sickness and even celibacy and asceticism and even the ultimate self-sacrifice of martrydom is like a red thread running throughout Paul's writings, i.e.,
"daily I die in Christ"
Did Paul preach "health 'n wealth"?
Not in this life.
For the majority of us moderns, this stuff is held at arm's length and toned down and "re-interpreted" - and I can't say I blame us!
Literalism can certainly lead one to an extremely unhealthy lifestyle here.
"Illness" may have the carry the meaning of "sin" in the Bible but that's also turned on its head in the New Testament - which is perhaps no better illustrated by the fact that millions revere a cross with a beaten and bloodied figure nailed upon it.
The carnal mind is at enmity with the spiritual mind-Romans 8. Spiritual understanding comes from the spirit. But we use our carnal minds to read and learn so that the spirit has more to work with in our understanding.
And as spiritual Wisdom rises, which is Christ, the fleshly, carnal, selfish thoughts begin to die. We must let them die in order for the new man to live. Pouring new wine into old bottles breaks the old. No one will need to teach it to you. Just a desire for truth is what's needed and the willingness to look at the new. The doors will open as we knock...seek and and you will find. Look under every rock. Sink the plow deep. Many are pointing the way to the new but not many hear...
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CM
cause and effect are always from within
healings, sickness, enlightenment, darkness
what we see with our physical eyes is an illusion and spiritually based-all of it
if you can grasp what I'm saying and think spiritually rather then carnaly
such is the surface of greater things that are
within our grasp...if we are looking...
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houseisarockin
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satori001
If not, how do you know it's true?
If so, what can you tell us about it? Uh, briefly!
How does it relate to "believing," and to miraculous results?
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houseisarockin
The works of Jesus Christ far exceeded just the mentioned miracles and such. He faced every thought with one of absence of negatives. God didn't need to shoot him the juice for daily impacts he no doubt made.
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CM
spiritual believing is relevent to the extent that the spirit works in us
miraculous results is dependent upon how we see it
it is not man that brings to pass a miracle
Christ is the miracle and as we allow Christ to
live by letting the carnal man die we will see
the spritual and it's miracles that proceed
from within
though the carnal mind learns, we can't
depend on it for truth, but rather bring
it into subjection to the Christ within
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houseisarockin
Satori to Long Gone:
I don't see where more than that was implied.
You were correct, nothing more was implied.
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LG
I appreciate the clarification, such as it is, houseisarockin. I'd have appreciated a direct response even more.
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satori001
CM, is this what you believe, or are you speaking from experience?
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CM
satori-
both
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CM
and i keep learning and growing
letting the carnal mind die=
not letting it have dominion and control
it will always be around till we
shed this mortal body
yet diminishes as we put on Christ which is
in each one of us...
He is not absent as you know...
spiritually speaking of course-
we must use our mind for many things
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Satori,
I hope to not add confusion.
Sometimes I am sum what a fanfare.
I reply to your original post!!!
This is a reply to ozbirdau's question: "If we don't get healed, is it our fault?" The answer got too long for a post, and became its own topic.
~And a fine topic for carry out. Thank you! A very noble effect of the cause. ~
Maybe some of you will find it entertaining. I do know what I'm talking about here, but I have no idea what I'm talking about. I did for a few moments, a long time ago.
~Seems I understand such words a brief pause to think in such a life time in which we are entertained by such extraordinary technological advances and the homeless, and the faminites, and the genocites, and the all of it all to ponder especially those atomisites and the Native Indian Nations that really don't exist in our USA and~ I think I'll just take a break here and have a tear, just one in each eye, both from the soul.~
Done editing for now. Additional changes will be in new posts.
B]~Dig it Dude!~[/b]
~INTERMEZZO I~
The obvious answer is this: the "promises" in the bible are NOT promises as we understand them. If the "simplicity" were simple, there would be no discussion. "Simplicity" just doesn't mean anything when it comes to spirituality.
~Then spirituality has much a hard time to define itself in this complicated world.~
Pretty much every faith teaches that the physical world must obey the spiritual world.
B]~I agree from what I have read over the years.~[/b]
You got cause. You got effect. Spirit is cause. The physical is effect.
~I am just going to agree that there is spirit. Whatever proof there may be, I can not prove, and will refrain from such extensive words that could be thousands and stay brief.~
Everything in the physical world is the effect of something else. So there is no true cause > effect relationship here in our world. Apparent causes are just the effect of another, prior effect.
~The butterfly effect resulting from the spiritual? The genuine cause is from the spiritual realm and we live in a realm of illusion? Does not the spiritual realm have its own "cause and effect" ? So, then, there is a genuine "cause" of all effect within just the two realms here mentioned? I would say the simplicity is very well entertained, but yet delightfully a song across the universe.~
Sickness is a physical affliction, so healing must be brought about either by a physical "cure" (an "effect" within the physical realm), or a spiritual decree (an external cause).
~This is way too much black & white for my taste here Dear Sir Satori. The human body (effect?/manifestation spirit realm?) is loaded with healing that even a splinter must give up its invasion. Ahhh~~~ maybe I am saying the same thing! Hmmm... I do have a story a serious accident that even the Dr's call "miraculous" . Hmmm~
INTERMEZZO II
Wierwille didn't teach believing in a vacuum. There are plenty of biblical references, and his teachings, mis-teachings and mistakes are discussed and dissected by Raf, Jerry Barrax, and others you can easily find. (I haven't read them because I have no further interest in Wierwille's prose and cons.)
~I empathize with you. I have read quite a bit the aforementioned posters, but seemed to me too much of my mind to invoke so many more hours regarding Biblical Research. I do respect their works, but it's like how many more times. Did ya know ya can peel as many onions ya want and not be effected by the toxic release if ya place a piece of bread on top of your head. Believe me that's true. I have a story about that one too!!! ~
What should be OBVIOUS to everyone, including a dying, one-eyed cancer victim once known as "Doctor," or "The Teacher," or "VP," is there is nothing at all "simple" about spiritual power, if it exists.
~I place a piece of bread on top of me head! The "OBVIOUS" seems illusive its existence.~
By if, I mean "spiritual power" and other such terms are terribly misleading because we have defined them in a phyisical context, as "effects." We can only define something as an effect. We live in a world consisting only of effects.
~Satori, why is it we can only define this spiritual power as an effect? Is it like the difference between finite and infinite? One defines the other but only in the realm of words. Words suffer at the hands of a spiritual power? Where then is the communication?
INTERMEZZO III
Everything in our world is an effect of something else. So our concept of something spiritual is inherently wrong. Spirit may "exist," but NOT as we think we know it, NOT as an aspect of our world. Spirit does not behave as we think it should. It doesn't "behave" at all, for that matter. Behavior is part of our world, not the spiritual.
~I disagree. Spirit does behave according to its realm "imposed" upon ours. Spirit does have behavior. Spirit does have limitations. Behavior is also a part of their world as well as ours. It's not a free for all. It's freedom according to rules. We understand the rules we have. Rather OBVIOUS. They seem to be made to be broken, but non the less rules.~
What is "believing?" It is supposedly the effect of: positive confession, prayer, single-mindedness, like-mindedness, "imagineering," "walking out on the promises," and a lot of other meaningless crap. (Not meaningless in our world, but meaningless, therefore ineffectual, to spirit.)
~I disagree. The spirit realm has to consider what is ineffectual to them is effectual to them.~
These "keys" are in turn the effect of your intention, or "will" (decision & desire in Wayspeak). They are the effect of your need, issue, problem, goal, etc. Which are the effects of circumstances, which are the effects of prior circumstances, those the effects of prior...
~Keys require locks. I really thinks keys are in our world and used by the spirit. AWWWW s h i t ~~~ this stuff is absolutely baffling at these specific times of heart.~
INTERMEZZO IV
What is "spirit?" If you tell me you know what it is, you're a liar. Nah, not really. You're only repeating a lie. And not really a lie, but an illusion by which we are perpetually deceived. You have descriptions, you have definitions, you have images and impressions. All are the effects of what you've been "taught" (and I use the term loosely). But you don't know jack ...., do you? And EVEN if you did, you'd know better than anyone that words fail utterly to describe what you think you know.
~I totally agree & disagree.~
And, class, out of what did Wierwille concoct his beliving formula? Words? Yep.
~Words. Ya know words have vibration.~
What is the bible, for that matter? Words? Yep... and not original words, but the approximations, of the gist, of the substance, of the vaguest inklings the competing committees of translators had of the prophet's original inspiration, if that's what it was.
~For brevity sake ~~~ I agree.~
INTERMEZZO V
And even the prophets were limited to words.
~The INFINITE into the Finite. Words beggar description. Words unlawful for to be spoken~~ or some think like that!~
The fact of the matter is, even if God had revealed Himself today, not on parchment, but in digital high-def video and Dolby 5.1 surround sound, we STILL wouldn't get it, because we live in the physical world. And we interpret everything we learn through that experiential filter. We are the effects of everything that led up to this moment.
~Even if a dead man or some think like that~
But spirit is cause. Not effect. We have no way to grasp true cause, a cause without a prior cause. We only know the chain of effect.
~I agree only if you talking the ultimate cause & effect. And I can only~~~
So... We can't do .... that isn't the effect of something else. Even our free will is an illusion, the expression of our accumulated baggage, which is what we "feel."
~Let's not despair, but I understand your , what I see as compassion.~
So you may ask, who am "I?" You are a little "assembly of gears," spun helplessly by countless other gears, great and small, and of which you have no knowledge.
~Hmmm. Big world of cause and effect and so dismal.~
"But, that's not what God intended!" your memory banks may output in protest. "I've been programmed to 'believe' I have free will! I refuse to update my software!"
~Cause & threat.~
You couldn't, so there's no argument, is there?
~Seems to me Satori you presenting a thought of arguement.~
So where did this idea of "free will" come from? How did it get into our software?
~It just happened. I had all my PC's given to me. That's for true.~
That's where spirit comes in. We don't know what it is because our processors can't process anything original. Spirit exists beyond the machinery of our mental and physical existence. This is why we can try, try, try to make spirit do our bidding, we just can't. The effect cannot dictate to its own cause. Can it? How could the physical world command the spirit? Ridiculous. Even our little processor/brains can get that.
There is a way out.
Anybody care to guess?
~And a fine topic for carry out. Thank you! A very noble effect of the cause. And where is that way out this Gordian knot of membranous labyrinth?
Just a few thots Satori
Songster[
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houseisarockin
I think you're correct, I'll not repeat it towards you.
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satori001
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CM
Just to clarify-
illusion means how we perceive things
not something that is not there
just in case i was misunderstood...
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
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satori001
Song,
I truly appreciate what must have been a valiant effort to be brief. But consider how many readers you might have lost by tackling the entire initial post in one bite.
I will try to undo the "Gordian knot," by answering specific comments one at a time, as I get to them.
Meanwhile a topic like this, it seems to me, is more palatable served in small portions.
I don't want this thread to become a heroic but improbable quest into paradox and enigma for a few die-hards in a joust of epic-sized posts.
It will sink like a rock if that happens.
How about a conversation instead? Be as brief as you can. Write your post as if it were to everyone, not just me.
Yeah, I break my own rules. But I'm working on that.
Thanks.
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satori001
CM, the content of your posts holds promise, but the mystical style you take on belies your sincerity.
Can you shake the meta-Christian lingo and just put it into the vernacular? It would go a long way toward making your message more accessible.
For instance, what do you mean by "carnal mind?" What do you mean by letting it "die?"
Stuff like that. Pretend we never sat through Wierwille's McDogma class and we live in contemporary America.
I'd really like to know what you're saying, but I have to "hear" it first. I haven't heard it yet. The voice you're using isn't your own. Am I right or wrong?
Thanks.
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laleo
Hey, satori, I said something about the thread title earlier, then I changed my mind and deleted it because I thought I was being too nitpicky (even for me). But that dang "who's" is getting me out of fellowship. What are the chances of changing it to "Whose"?
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satori001
laleo, the chances are good. I can't believe I'd did that. I'm so ashamed.
Was there anything else?
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laleo
Don't get me started.
Oh, you mean about the thread topic?
Not too much. It brought to mind John 3:8:
Other than that, if I say anything else, I'll end up breaking all your rules about brevity, metaphysical musings, and paradox. Oh, hell, might as well live dangerously, right?
Actually, my problem with the initial post (now that I can get beyond the title) is that it leaves out metaphor, specifically illness as metaphor. Before science, before medicine, before cure, illness meant something about the person experiencing it, and some of the character attachments seem random, in hindsight. People who were in asylums for tuberculosis, for instance, were romanticized. It was an affliction of the elite, of the passionately creative. Syphilis had other, more negative, associations. And on and on with the different illnesses. Even today, among self-help gurus, and metaphysical types, heart sufferers are thought to be "Type A" personalities, cancer sufferers, something else. Depression is often thought of as some type of divine suffering. But for the most part, medicine has taken the metaphor out of illness. Now, people with tuberculosis are cured so quickly, they don't have time to be stigmatized, to reflect on how they got themselves into their predicament, if they even did.
In some places, the Bible uses illness as a metaphor for sin, a reminder that we are fallen. Other things are used as metaphor, too. Material wealth, large armies, lots of cows and kids are metaphors for God's blessings.
So, anyway, I'm not really sure where cause and effect (or just effect and effect) fits into this. Germs cause illness. Penicillin kills the germs which cause the illness. Some illnesses don't have a cure, yet. Does that mean the metaphor is now irrelevant? I sure don't know.
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TheInvisibleDan
Laleo,
I'm coming in on this more recent page, and admittedly haven't been following this entire discussion, but your last post was fascinating.
You used the word "stigmatized" -which in another form by itself - "stigmata" - lends further merit of your post, when imagining how captivated Christians become by a person bleeding from "supernatural" wounds on their hands, feet or head. And of course, many interpret these as replicating the wounds of Christ.
Suffering and sickness and even celibacy and asceticism and even the ultimate self-sacrifice of martrydom is like a red thread running throughout Paul's writings, i.e.,
"daily I die in Christ"
Did Paul preach "health 'n wealth"?
Not in this life.
For the majority of us moderns, this stuff is held at arm's length and toned down and "re-interpreted" - and I can't say I blame us!
Literalism can certainly lead one to an extremely unhealthy lifestyle here.
"Illness" may have the carry the meaning of "sin" in the Bible but that's also turned on its head in the New Testament - which is perhaps no better illustrated by the fact that millions revere a cross with a beaten and bloodied figure nailed upon it.
Danny
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CM
Uh yeah - I think it's mine-lol!
The carnal mind is at enmity with the spiritual mind-Romans 8. Spiritual understanding comes from the spirit. But we use our carnal minds to read and learn so that the spirit has more to work with in our understanding.
The more we understand the more we understand...
And Wisdom rises...
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CM
And as spiritual Wisdom rises, which is Christ, the fleshly, carnal, selfish thoughts begin to die. We must let them die in order for the new man to live. Pouring new wine into old bottles breaks the old. No one will need to teach it to you. Just a desire for truth is what's needed and the willingness to look at the new. The doors will open as we knock...seek and and you will find. Look under every rock. Sink the plow deep. Many are pointing the way to the new but not many hear...
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houseisarockin
Nice!
Okay Satori before you say it...I'll not sidetrack this gig of yours.
;)-->
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