Whose Fault IS It?

[Bob]

quote:

Originally posted by satori001:

quote:

Originally posted by George Aar:

I am confirmed believer in the known laws of physics and not much else.

So through my "filter" words like "spirit", "God", or any metaphysical jargon you can come up with are simply poetic ways of conveying the same thing: "I don't know".

George, what is your basis for "believing" in known laws of physics?

Some of those laws we experience, like gravity, and the behavior of light. Others are only accepted (and demonstrable, if not provable) theory.

What constitutes what you know, versus what you believe? Is there a scientific consensus you accept as "gospel?"

I think Henry Lincoln put it best (possible paraphrase):

"I neither believe or disbelieve anything. I either know it to be a fact or I don't. Everything else is theory."

[satori001]

Okay Bob.

I take it Henry Lincoln never took PFAL?

This is fine. But how does he determine his facts? How does he "know" what he knows?

He must have a lot of theories. Will he test those theories? Rely upon them? Or just upon facts?

He doesn't know the sun will rise tomorrow. Will he stay up all night and party, or rest up in case he has to go to work?

[Ham]

quote:

Nothing's "obvious" to me. You need to give an example or two.

Well, and you wanted it short. I tried, heh heh.

Just managing stress and anger can perform WONDERS for some people.

Common sense helps.

Eating the right kind of food..

exercise

All this "believing action" is little more than stewarding what God gave us, in my opinion.

And praying for the occasional miracle when all the above fails, but I have seen some get "missed" in that regard. Don't ask me why for that.

Those are a few ways we are responsible for what happens.

I think the spiritual and natural embrace in a little more intimate way than we were led to believe.

But what about genetics? That you have absolutely no control over. In this present world, you literally were born to die. Delay, postpone the inevitable- but if you live long enough (heh heh), you are going to die. Period. No believing, no health food fad, no medicine, no doctor, nothing- will delay the inevitable.

"Believing" or not.

I know of people that STILL think that if they believe right, they will never die. Nice illusion.

In the long run, we are all headed to the same place, heh heh. I guess in that way we are all the same.

I think the results/lack of results assessment, and a lot of fault placing, are false assessments to begin with, because we are individuals. For myself, I am comfortable with uncertainty. A measuring stick for people fails, because I think they are all different sizes and shapes to begin with, spiritually speaking.

[Ham]

quote:

What about a 2-way relationship with their Heavenly Father?

Sure, that would be nice. But for everybody, it is different. Maybe this fits in a little with the "God is no respecter of persons" concept.

I think God is willing to work with what He's got- individuals. Doesn't matter who- but its in the category of our understanding. And everybody is different.

I have seen God at work in, God forbid, (heh heh), people that are NOT christian.

Honestly, I'm still trying to sort through this stuff and figure it out- may never happen. But its fun, heh heh.

[satori001]

Mr H.

My point to all of this, with respect to your posts, is that the emporer has no clothes.

You begin by attributing much to God, and by the end of all the exusing, there's little or nothing but "stress management" and a better diet to go on.

I'm hearing, "Houston, we have a problem."

Yet so many go on blithely thinking the dogma is impeccible. It's the application that is lacking. They are "blowing it" on believing, or principle, or stumbling at some other hoop through which we must jump.

I suggest the dogma is the problem. We are so, so far off base in our understanding of the bible, that we are (I'm invoking a baseball analogy here) out in left field wondering why the pitcher isn't pitching to us. More likely, we're not even in the stadium, or even the parking lot. The Pitcher is throwing a perfect strike every time. We're just not anywhere near the ballpark, much less behind home plate.

Or maybe we're just sitting on the bench. Would it matter how "close" we were?

When something does hit us, it's far less likely to be a ball, than a bird. If it is a ball, it's probably a wild pitch, or intended for someone else, and we got lucky. Call me cynical.

[satori001]

So it all comes back to:

How do we know our "dogma" is what God intended to say?

Here's one way! It's always 100% reliable. Just believe (which is easy), and you get whatever you want from God's infinite storehouse of love and riches.

Is dogma what's required, anyway? Or is it something else that is lacking?

If believing is not so reliable, maybe it's not God, or us, but our understanding of what the bible is saying.

In other words, maybe we are following the directions perfectly, but the directions are wrong.

Or maybe it's something else.

[Ham]

quote:

To me, this is a problem. It indicates that, "Houston, we have a problem."

I wouldn't argue with that, in a million years, heh heh. I'm just another fool, stumbling along the path of life.. can't see where I'm going half the time- no argument here.

"Yet so many go on blithely thinking the dogma is impeccible".

Not me, not anymore..

It took a while, but I finally agree that somebody that does not believe as I do may actually have a few answers.

But really. Why exercise? Why do anything? Is it because you BELIEVE that it will improve life? Prosperity? Health? Sure, I guess some do it out of fear of the consequences of what's going to happen if they don't..

Maybe these mundane physical things are more "spiritual" than people think.

Maybe that's the way God made things to be anyway- who knows. I can't pretend to.

"How about a modicum of the wisdom and power we associate with Christ? How about the ability to heal your friends, feed the masses, and other selfless, benevolent, and really neat stuff attributed to the spirit of God?"

I honestly don't think that this is everybody's mission in life, at least as far as the supernatural and miraculous is concerned.

The number of times somebody went in and cleaned out the hospital wards can be counted on less than half a hand.

There are people that feed the masses every day, perhaps not as Christ did at one time.

There are people that heal the sick, but not with supernatural means- is not this equally valid?

"My point to all of this, with respect to your posts, is that the emporer has no clothes."

Now, now- a streaker, I am not, except perhaps when I was very very young. I managed to slip away, and they DID get pictures. Nothing like that has happened since, heh heh.

[Ham]

quote:

I suggest the dogma is the problem. We are so, so far off base in our understanding of the bible, that we are (I'm invoking a baseball analogy here) out in left field wondering why the pitcher isn't pitching to us.

You have my full agreement on this point. If you find my anwers ambiguous, I really take it as a compliment. I'd rather have a bag of uncertainties, than a boat load of .....

Edited June 13, 2005 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

Satori, come back.. heh heh.

[satori001]

I don't want to get away from the principle theme of the thread, which is "cause and effect," and in part, how TWI (and most other religions) claim to offer something, and then take that claim away, when they can't deliver.

Mr. H, thanks for contributing so much. Just remember to be brief. Your posts will be more focused, and that will encourage others to actually read them. :)-->

[MATILDA]

if it ain't Morton's, it ain't kosher

succinct and to the point

[satori001]

Yeah, but Morton's ain't kosher.

Is it?

[Ham]

Thank you for your kind words Mr. S, heh heh.

I think it boils down to your first statement about "promises". Do we understand them to begin with? Personally, I don't think a life of gluttony, and more money than you could possibly ever need qualifies as one of God's "promises", that can be claimed by believing- not that money is evil in itself.

But if that's what the TWIT's say you can have, and you don't, there has to be a CAUSE- usually an evil one in their eyes.

[ex10]

I can't help but wonder how much our cultural biases affect the answer to the question, "who's fault?"

We don't get what we expect from religion. How much are out expectations based on our cultural/religious definiton of "healing?"

Does it have to be anybody's "fault" when life doesn't go the way we want it to?

Is disappoinment in life due to the failure of faith? Or is faith the rock that carries us through our disappointments?

[excathedra]

haven't read the ******* thread

just want to say it isn't my fault

sowwy bible fans about my language

[Catcup]

TWI was always looking for the bogeyman in the closet, and expert at finding places to lay the blame for every little iota of a detail that didn't go the way they thought it should. Every good thing was attributed to actions TWI or it's ministers took, and every bad thing that happened had to have a scapegoat.

[satori001]

This pattern of assigning credit or blame reinforced the doctrine of believing, yet it was not reliable enough to predict success or failure. That didn't stop them.

[ex10]

And it didn't stop me from buying into it.

The questions I have to ask myself are complicated.

[satori001]

So, though the doctrine of believing was in NO way a reliable predictor of success (yes, their hindsight was always 20/20), we bought into it, through failure or apparent success alike.

Why?

The doctrine was sufficiently fuzzy to keep us from ever saying, "I did everything right, and I didn't get the results. Therefore the formula is flawed."

We could only shrug and say, "I must have blown it somewhere."

So we didn't look elsewhere for a better answer.

That answer was, the doctrine and teaching of TWI is based upon a profound fallacy, which is that believing (as Christ once revealed it) is the consequence, an "effect," of a free-will choice.

Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no such thing, in this context, as "free-will choice." Only the illusion of apparent choice. Everything in the physical world is the effect, of some prior effect, of some prior effect... So how could there be "choice?"

Believing, as Christ revealed it, is not (and could not be) the consequence of an illusion.

[ex10]

Yeah, but what was the hook in the "profound fallacy" that worked?

For a while anyway.

[satori001]

Sorry ex, I don't follow your question.

Which part "worked?" What do you mean by "hook?"

[ex10]

Well, the believing thing was a "foundational" doctrine that most who took PFAL bought into, a least for a while. Only speaking for myself, but I stuck around and tried it out, more times than I care to mention.

Why didn't I recognize it as BS the first time I heard it? Maybe I'm assuming alot here....

I mean maybe there were those among us who knew it didn't work right from the start. Me......it took a few years.....

And there are those I've gone around a few times with at Waydale and here, who adamantly stick to the doctrine, even though they agree VP was an abuser, etc.

[satori001]

quote:

Originally posted by ex10:

Why didn't I recognize it as BS the first time I heard it? Maybe I'm assuming alot here...

1. We wanted it to work.

2. Jesus was apparently saying it worked.

3. VPW, this "respectable" midwestern preacher was quoting Greek and saying it worked, and he gave us examples from his own wonderful life.

4. Our bibles were apparently saying it worked, in addition to Jesus.

5. If it didn't work, it was due to "negative believing" of some kind.

6. It seemed, thanks to the law of averages and our own efforts, to work enough of the time to satisfy us.

7. There really ought to be seven reasons, for spiritual perfection, but I'll have to get back to you.

Anyone who doesn't grasp the fallacy risks falling back into the doctrine. Who wouldn't like to think they could "believe" for stuff just by getting clear and concerned, doing the 4 D's, etc? I would.

[satori001]

From the perspective of the physical world, spirit is cause. It is causal. It is causation.

The physical world is effect. It is usually the effect of its own virtually infinite prior effects, like an endless supply of billiard balls careening into one another. BUT it is also the effect, at times, of spirit - not another "physical" billiard ball, but of a well-aimed, cosmic (spiritual) cue stick.

Jesus was a physical guy. So what did he mean by "faith?" What did he mean by "believing?" Can they even be defined, or only perceived, apprehended, experienced? More importantly, to this thread, why did they work for him in this physical world of effect?

(If the accounts are true.)

[ex10]

So now we get down to the heart of the matter.

What did Jesus mean by "faith?"