It's kinda hard to answer your question not knowing the soil and subsurface in your area, and the going rate for such services there.
The work and requirements sound about right...just guessing, but the cost is a lot higher than I would expect. However you live in the north where everything is much higher and everything is union dominated.
Compare, 120' sewer line buried 3' to 4'; to be dug up, lowered at foundation 14" and sloped to code = $8,000. Tack on our 15% = $9,200. Now, installing a lift station to avoid that work was considerably cheaper, about 1/3 of that quote. BUT every decent qualified and reputable plumber I have talked to over the years have horror stories concerning lift stations. According to them a lift station should only be used when there is no other alternative. And I have heard them also state with new construction selling the property and building else where is an alternative.
Years ago, I was on the BOD of a wastewater district, so I've seen such contracts. Compared to what the work would cost in the SF bay area, your quote is a bargain. Have you tried to get other quotes?
"... According to them a lift station should only be used when there is no other alternative."
In December I met the "soil engineer - septic design engineer" dude, we walked all over the property and drill numerous test holes getting core samples underneath the snow, he finally found an area that he liked down by the embankment 400 feet from the road.
But then just as the snow was mostly gone we met him again, to actualy design the site. This time we walked all over that property again and he insisted that the best location was up next to the road and could be built with the smallest field.
We could have placed it down next to the house on the embankment but the drainage field would have needed to be far larger and included 'plastic tanks' which would have needed to be dug up periodically.
I have been told that every five years or so the lift-station's pump will likely burn-out, but so long as it is close to the house and easily located [and you never park a vehicle over it] that should not be a horrible thing. I did ask if I could put the lift station in the crawl space to access it anytime, but everyone seems to think that is a bad idea.
Speaking of: ‘wastewater districts’. A friend of mine is currently a wastewater plant manager in N.C. and he was just telling me about 'French Drains'. He thinks that I should cut parallel ditches across this property at about 80 foot intervals, and fill them in with gravel to wick the water out of the soil and to carry it into the nearby river.
Do you have any knowledge of them, and do they really 'wick' water any better than a simple ditch would.
I was thinking about digging some drainage ditches now, then later dropping leech lines in them. In my mind water would flow better and faster if it were in a smooth walled pipe, rather than through a bed of stone.
At initial glance, the 23k price does not seem exorbitant to me, but it might pay to get more estimates.
Could you post a description (as well as the manufacturer and model number, if you have it) of the pump or lift station assembly the contractor is proposing to install? Sewage pumps vary significantly in price.
Also, it would help to know some details about the septic field (e.g. total trench length) and dimensions of the area to be excavated and filled for the house.
The house foot print is 100 feet by 40 feet. The foundation frost wall is a minimum of 5 foot tall with a 1 foot footer and lots of rebar. The foundation also requires two tie-in bars connecting both long sides t provide more support against lifting wall forces. The location of the house is on an embankment which is steeper maybe a 8% grade. Maybe four feet down needs to be dug, to get down below any organic material, then built back up to a level pad the size of the foundation footprint and graded out around that maybe 20 feet in all directions.
The septic system design says: low profile concrete tank 1000 gallon capacity lift station. With 12†deep stone bed of 800 sq. feet [20’ X 40’] design flow is 180 gallons per day. The plan shows a field with three lines of 4†perf. Pipe with a 3 foot berm around it. And covered over with 10 inches of clean fill [to be graded and seeded]. Disposal field sizing is 4.1 sq. ft. / gpd. Soil classification: profile ‘B’, Condition: ‘A, III, C’, slope: 3%, limiting factor 18†ground water. The plan is 6 pages if there is some specific thing I missed please ask.
I don’t have the estimate written yet, and thus don’t know what type or model of pump they would use. It should arrive any day now.
The location of the house is about 10 feet below the level of the septic field and the street. and about 300 feet away from the septic field.
He did tell me that everything could be put into place, but that he did not want to install the pump until we were actually ready to move in. He explained that for a pump to sit inside a lifting station and to have no effluent in it, will often damage the pump. As water may flood into the tank and without the power to pump it out again … He also went on about how the chunky makes heat which keeps the system from freezing. If the system is not in immediate use, it has no chunky, thus no internal heat, and will freeze.
OK, you been warned about those high maintenance messes,
Note: soils engineers are not plumpers. Deal with them a lot, but let those that know trump them.
French drains, we install with 1/4" per foot fall, using your basic leach field white plastic pipe (name escapes me right now}. The trench is then lined with a black fiber (be careful as you should test the fiber to make sure water passes easily through it, some brands don’t allow easy flow) Then the pipe is placed in and covered with rock and the fiber wrapped to cover the top.Called a burrito wrap, this allows a layer of top soil to be placed over the drain or another layer rock if you don’t want the drains hidden.
Are you installing drains around you foundation? Common practice many places, many places don’t install them.
Speaking of: ‘wastewater districts’. A friend of mine is currently a wastewater plant manager in N.C. and he was just telling me about 'French Drains'. He thinks that I should cut parallel ditches across this property at about 80 foot intervals, and fill them in with gravel to wick the water out of the soil and to carry it into the nearby river.
French drains are a *good thing* and are used extensively where you have saturated soil that might slide or cause foundation problems. I suppose a ditch would work as well, but a french drain allows you to actually use the property that the drain is on and not have to maintain the ditch.
If you have concerns about moisture coming up through a concrete slab, you might want to send me an email or pt me. I've had some up-close and personal experiences with it, but don't wish to talk in public due to legal entanglements.
I was thinking about using those foberous socks I have seen to go over the perf pipe.
I also think that when it is all done it should be 'hidden', DEP gets really upset about diverting water flows and such.
My question is how far from one of these things will the surrounding soil be drained? Will it wick out the surface water for 40 feet in either direction?
"Are you installing drains around you foundation? Common practice many places, many places don’t install them."
actually we have a 90 by 14 that we got bids for last year...with out all the work you needed, but with a 1/2 basketball court on the side at one end. Without all the retaining wall and support stuff you had our came out to 10,000 - 14,000 ...we went another route and changed around some other stuff to get the court on another side of the house, and used crusher-fine on that driveway instead...that was a much cheaper deal, but here in not so winter country we can get away with things that don't work as well up north ...like Ron said.
"If you have concerns about moisture coming up through a concrete slab, you might want to send me an email or pt me. I've had some up-close and personal experiences with it, but don't wish to talk in public due to legal entanglements."
Thank you.
Actually I had thought about drains around the house. The french drains were specifically for the rest of the property away from the house. It is 46 acres of forrest, and has a lot of standing brine water. Draining the surface water would facilitate further use of the property.
Right now I have to deal with a new litter of beaver, that have been going crazy building levees everywhere this past three weeks. In one area of my property [where it is perfectly flat level] they have built a levee maybe three feet high encircling an area of maybe a 1/4 acre.
No, there is no concrete slabs planned for this house. thank you anyway.
I need a crawl space and wooden floors, as our house-plan calls for a sunken fireplace in the center of the building. An open round hearth four feet in diameter with four coaches around it, all sunken down about three feet into the floor.
I don't know if it's available in your area, but there's a product made for drainfields to use instead of the standard 4" perforated draintile pipe. It's called "Infiltrator" and is a sort of pyramid shaped length of poly-type material with louvered sides. It comes in 8' lengths and sets directly on the bottom of the 2' deep trench and several lengths can be connected with 4" sewer piper. You then simply backfill over the stuff with a reasonably "perking" type of soil. That's it, and it cuts down the amount of trench you need by 40%.
The biggest issue I see with the French drains would be from the local EPA. In my neck of the woods they'd be all over anybody who was trying to divert surface water without their blessing.
You might want to check with them before doing some expensive procedure that they may make you undo...
350 feet long, and 40 feet wide. It was going to be 20 feet wide, but the guy running the bulldozer wanted to widen it and give me a nice place to park our Motorhome, but as the day wore on and after widening it, he never narrowed it back down again. So the driveway is like 40 feet wide it's entire length.
From the county road, it looks like a landing strip.
I also got a power-pole installed monday, and the meter and breaker-box installed tuesday. Now we hope to get power hooked up within a few weeks.
The contractor that was going to build our foundation, has dragged it on for months without giving us a solid estimate. Finally this week I got him to commit to a specific amount of money. But he wants around $10K more than we had budgeted for the foundation.
I have contacted two other foundation contractors, but this late in the season, everyone is already humping with too many jobs.
I may end up pouring the foundation myself. I have never done it before but, at least it would save a ton of money. :-)
10K MORE sounds like it must be a complicated and large foundation project. tackling it yourself as a firsttimer may be ill advised. If something goes wrong, that is a bunch of heavy trash to pull back out, or maybe you could change the homesite if that happens.
I did my first foundation 22 years ago, (still live in that same house), but I was so worried through the whole foundation part, when I returned the forms I told the supplier NEVER let me do that again. I have let him do all my foundation work since then, and am glad I have.
A good foundation makes the rest of the project go SO much easier.
the one we poured last week was one brutal piece of work, as one wall of it (42x8 feet) had to act not only as a conventional foundation wall, but also as a retaining wall to hold back the dirt and original crawlspace foundation from moving.
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Ron G.
It's kinda hard to answer your question not knowing the soil and subsurface in your area, and the going rate for such services there.
The work and requirements sound about right...just guessing, but the cost is a lot higher than I would expect. However you live in the north where everything is much higher and everything is union dominated.
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wingnut
Bout right? Dunno,
Compare, 120' sewer line buried 3' to 4'; to be dug up, lowered at foundation 14" and sloped to code = $8,000. Tack on our 15% = $9,200. Now, installing a lift station to avoid that work was considerably cheaper, about 1/3 of that quote. BUT every decent qualified and reputable plumber I have talked to over the years have horror stories concerning lift stations. According to them a lift station should only be used when there is no other alternative. And I have heard them also state with new construction selling the property and building else where is an alternative.
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DaddyHoundog
Not to point out the obvious, but is this the only bid you have gotten?
we usually get 2 if not 3 on everything here in Albuquerque....
Lianne
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Jim
Years ago, I was on the BOD of a wastewater district, so I've seen such contracts. Compared to what the work would cost in the SF bay area, your quote is a bargain. Have you tried to get other quotes?
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Galen
wingnut:
"... According to them a lift station should only be used when there is no other alternative."
In December I met the "soil engineer - septic design engineer" dude, we walked all over the property and drill numerous test holes getting core samples underneath the snow, he finally found an area that he liked down by the embankment 400 feet from the road.
But then just as the snow was mostly gone we met him again, to actualy design the site. This time we walked all over that property again and he insisted that the best location was up next to the road and could be built with the smallest field.
We could have placed it down next to the house on the embankment but the drainage field would have needed to be far larger and included 'plastic tanks' which would have needed to be dug up periodically.
I have been told that every five years or so the lift-station's pump will likely burn-out, but so long as it is close to the house and easily located [and you never park a vehicle over it] that should not be a horrible thing. I did ask if I could put the lift station in the crawl space to access it anytime, but everyone seems to think that is a bad idea.
:-)
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Galen
DaddyHoundog:
"Not to point out the obvious, but is this the only bid you have gotten?"
I have contacted other contractors though these guys are the closest and so far the only ones to respond to us.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
LongBeard you know the ropes~~~ be cautious and check past jobs!!!
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Galen
Ron-
Thanks.
Jim-
Speaking of: ‘wastewater districts’. A friend of mine is currently a wastewater plant manager in N.C. and he was just telling me about 'French Drains'. He thinks that I should cut parallel ditches across this property at about 80 foot intervals, and fill them in with gravel to wick the water out of the soil and to carry it into the nearby river.
Do you have any knowledge of them, and do they really 'wick' water any better than a simple ditch would.
I was thinking about digging some drainage ditches now, then later dropping leech lines in them. In my mind water would flow better and faster if it were in a smooth walled pipe, rather than through a bed of stone.
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Cynic
Galen,
At initial glance, the 23k price does not seem exorbitant to me, but it might pay to get more estimates.
Could you post a description (as well as the manufacturer and model number, if you have it) of the pump or lift station assembly the contractor is proposing to install? Sewage pumps vary significantly in price.
Also, it would help to know some details about the septic field (e.g. total trench length) and dimensions of the area to be excavated and filled for the house.
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Galen
Oh my goodness lets see:
The driveway is 350 feet long and 15 feet wide.
The house foot print is 100 feet by 40 feet. The foundation frost wall is a minimum of 5 foot tall with a 1 foot footer and lots of rebar. The foundation also requires two tie-in bars connecting both long sides t provide more support against lifting wall forces. The location of the house is on an embankment which is steeper maybe a 8% grade. Maybe four feet down needs to be dug, to get down below any organic material, then built back up to a level pad the size of the foundation footprint and graded out around that maybe 20 feet in all directions.
The septic system design says: low profile concrete tank 1000 gallon capacity lift station. With 12†deep stone bed of 800 sq. feet [20’ X 40’] design flow is 180 gallons per day. The plan shows a field with three lines of 4†perf. Pipe with a 3 foot berm around it. And covered over with 10 inches of clean fill [to be graded and seeded]. Disposal field sizing is 4.1 sq. ft. / gpd. Soil classification: profile ‘B’, Condition: ‘A, III, C’, slope: 3%, limiting factor 18†ground water. The plan is 6 pages if there is some specific thing I missed please ask.
I don’t have the estimate written yet, and thus don’t know what type or model of pump they would use. It should arrive any day now.
The location of the house is about 10 feet below the level of the septic field and the street. and about 300 feet away from the septic field.
He did tell me that everything could be put into place, but that he did not want to install the pump until we were actually ready to move in. He explained that for a pump to sit inside a lifting station and to have no effluent in it, will often damage the pump. As water may flood into the tank and without the power to pump it out again … He also went on about how the chunky makes heat which keeps the system from freezing. If the system is not in immediate use, it has no chunky, thus no internal heat, and will freeze.
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wingnut
OK, you been warned about those high maintenance messes,
Note: soils engineers are not plumpers. Deal with them a lot, but let those that know trump them.
French drains, we install with 1/4" per foot fall, using your basic leach field white plastic pipe (name escapes me right now}. The trench is then lined with a black fiber (be careful as you should test the fiber to make sure water passes easily through it, some brands don’t allow easy flow) Then the pipe is placed in and covered with rock and the fiber wrapped to cover the top.Called a burrito wrap, this allows a layer of top soil to be placed over the drain or another layer rock if you don’t want the drains hidden.
Are you installing drains around you foundation? Common practice many places, many places don’t install them.
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Jim
French drains are a *good thing* and are used extensively where you have saturated soil that might slide or cause foundation problems. I suppose a ditch would work as well, but a french drain allows you to actually use the property that the drain is on and not have to maintain the ditch.
If you have concerns about moisture coming up through a concrete slab, you might want to send me an email or pt me. I've had some up-close and personal experiences with it, but don't wish to talk in public due to legal entanglements.
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Galen
wingnut:
"a burrito wrap"
Cool.
I was thinking about using those foberous socks I have seen to go over the perf pipe.
I also think that when it is all done it should be 'hidden', DEP gets really upset about diverting water flows and such.
My question is how far from one of these things will the surrounding soil be drained? Will it wick out the surface water for 40 feet in either direction?
"Are you installing drains around you foundation? Common practice many places, many places don’t install them."
Yes
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DaddyHoundog
actually we have a 90 by 14 that we got bids for last year...with out all the work you needed, but with a 1/2 basketball court on the side at one end. Without all the retaining wall and support stuff you had our came out to 10,000 - 14,000 ...we went another route and changed around some other stuff to get the court on another side of the house, and used crusher-fine on that driveway instead...that was a much cheaper deal, but here in not so winter country we can get away with things that don't work as well up north ...like Ron said.
Lianne
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Galen
Jim:
"If you have concerns about moisture coming up through a concrete slab, you might want to send me an email or pt me. I've had some up-close and personal experiences with it, but don't wish to talk in public due to legal entanglements."
Thank you.
Actually I had thought about drains around the house. The french drains were specifically for the rest of the property away from the house. It is 46 acres of forrest, and has a lot of standing brine water. Draining the surface water would facilitate further use of the property.
Right now I have to deal with a new litter of beaver, that have been going crazy building levees everywhere this past three weeks. In one area of my property [where it is perfectly flat level] they have built a levee maybe three feet high encircling an area of maybe a 1/4 acre.
No, there is no concrete slabs planned for this house. thank you anyway.
I need a crawl space and wooden floors, as our house-plan calls for a sunken fireplace in the center of the building. An open round hearth four feet in diameter with four coaches around it, all sunken down about three feet into the floor.
:-)
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George Aar
The estimate doesn't sound too out of hand to me.
I don't know if it's available in your area, but there's a product made for drainfields to use instead of the standard 4" perforated draintile pipe. It's called "Infiltrator" and is a sort of pyramid shaped length of poly-type material with louvered sides. It comes in 8' lengths and sets directly on the bottom of the 2' deep trench and several lengths can be connected with 4" sewer piper. You then simply backfill over the stuff with a reasonably "perking" type of soil. That's it, and it cuts down the amount of trench you need by 40%.
The biggest issue I see with the French drains would be from the local EPA. In my neck of the woods they'd be all over anybody who was trying to divert surface water without their blessing.
You might want to check with them before doing some expensive procedure that they may make you undo...
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CoolWaters
Did I follow you right, Galen?
The original field was to be down closer to the house...but then, after the snow, the guy said to move it up by the road?
And that's 10' above the house?
Hmmmmm...
Then add a lift pump thingy to that?
I dunno...
Sounds ill-advised to me.
But what do I know? I've participated in only a dozen building projects...and only one of those was an apartment complex...
;)-->
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Galen
George Aar:
"Infiltrator"
I will look into those, thanks.
"The biggest issue I see with the French drains would be from the local EPA."
Same in Maine, the DEP is all into that.
:-)
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Galen
CoolWaters:
"Did I follow you right, Galen? ....."
Yes, you did.
:-(
We dont plan on doing anymore apartment buildings, this is jsut a home for Bonnine and I. Matthew is in Highschool now and will soon be gone too.
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Galen
They built my driveway. It cost me $4600.
350 feet long, and 40 feet wide. It was going to be 20 feet wide, but the guy running the bulldozer wanted to widen it and give me a nice place to park our Motorhome, but as the day wore on and after widening it, he never narrowed it back down again. So the driveway is like 40 feet wide it's entire length.
From the county road, it looks like a landing strip.
I also got a power-pole installed monday, and the meter and breaker-box installed tuesday. Now we hope to get power hooked up within a few weeks.
The contractor that was going to build our foundation, has dragged it on for months without giving us a solid estimate. Finally this week I got him to commit to a specific amount of money. But he wants around $10K more than we had budgeted for the foundation.
I have contacted two other foundation contractors, but this late in the season, everyone is already humping with too many jobs.
I may end up pouring the foundation myself. I have never done it before but, at least it would save a ton of money. :-)
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HAPe4me
10K MORE sounds like it must be a complicated and large foundation project. tackling it yourself as a firsttimer may be ill advised. If something goes wrong, that is a bunch of heavy trash to pull back out, or maybe you could change the homesite if that happens.
I did my first foundation 22 years ago, (still live in that same house), but I was so worried through the whole foundation part, when I returned the forms I told the supplier NEVER let me do that again. I have let him do all my foundation work since then, and am glad I have.
A good foundation makes the rest of the project go SO much easier.
the one we poured last week was one brutal piece of work, as one wall of it (42x8 feet) had to act not only as a conventional foundation wall, but also as a retaining wall to hold back the dirt and original crawlspace foundation from moving.
good luck with your project Galen.
~HAP
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Galen
thanks
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OnionEater
Galen
You going to throw a G/S party when you move in?
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
good idea onion eater
galen all of us mainers will be there
i'll bring the prime rib!
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