I agree Hammeroni. VP says in PFAL that in each case of deliverance in the Bible, all five keys are evident. That's so far beyond exxageration, it can only be called a lie. The amazing thing is, he made this statement and then used the record in Mark chapter three (the man with the withered hand) as his proof text. There's nothing in that passage that says the man knew that God's ability equaled God's willingness. Nor does Mark say that the man had his needs and wants parallel. Does Mark record that the man found out what was available? No. He was simply sitting in the synagogue.
I could go on, but I would belabor the point. VP had a terrible habit of making assumptions and then trying to find Scriptures that he could use to support them. Sometimes they fit, many times they don't.
The bottom line is, the class on keys, is more accurately described as a class on half-baked assumptions.
Nevertheless, there are some gems in there, such as speaking in tongues, and postitive believing (which is not a "law" but a pretty darn good idea).
Not only that, but if it's the record I'm thinking about, the man actually confessed unbelief... and STILL got the deliverance he sought! No, wait, that's another record. Still...
I read several accounts where the guy involved did not know what to do with it after he received it until after he received it. "Go, and sin no more", "Tell no man", "go make the offering Moses commanded.." All well AFTER the big event took place.
So maybe having all this stuff lined up to pry a miracle out of God's hands isn't quite so right.
Even believing. Sure, believing "works". "Whosoever shall say to this mountain..." but what if the Almighty likes the mountain right where he put it? Nothing's gonna happen.
I think believing, or even more properly faith- has more of a spiritual nature. Not so much an action of the human mind, but that is obviously a necessary part.
As corny as it may sound- and opposite to what I learned in PFAL- I think there is a little bit of truth in the statement the God gives faith to be healed, or to work miracles- if God does not energize it, all the mental gymnastics in the world is not going to produce the results you think God "owes" you.
You bring up a good point about "the law of believing" Hammeroni. The lc of WV did a teaching back in 89 or so that cleared that up for me. He said that the truth is that believing is a response to a promise from God, not something you decide to do on your own. Using the famous Blue Book article Release From Your Prisons, he interpreted the clear picture VP uses in his camera analogy as the Scripture. If you focus on the Scripture, or revealed will of God (in the case of revelation)you will get the result. If you focus on a picture of your own making and "believe for it" to happen, you are, in effect, playing God. But mostly you're just setting yourself up for frustration because it doesn't work!
I think if you look at the Biblical use of the word pistis you can rightly understand it to be a positive response to, or acceptance of, a promise of God. This teaching literally changed my life. Receiving healing is much easier now because, instead of creating a mental picture of me being healthy, I just focus on the verse that says "...by whose stripes you were healed."
I get much, much better results this way.
Of course that means VP's memorable PFAL declaration, "You say it, you believe it, God will bring it to pass!" is hogwash, but I think we all know that already.
Of course that means VP's memorable PFAL declaration, "You say it, you believe it, God will bring it to pass!" is hogwash, but I think we all know that already.
Speak for yourself.
I know that.
You know that.
I can name at least one person who DOESN'T know that-or at least, refuses to ADMIT
Oh yes.. "you say it, you believe it, and God will bring it to pass".
What in the dadburned world is "it"?
"Well, its Da Word"..
If its that simple, I think people would have NO PROBLEM clearing out hospitals and sanitariums by saying it and believing it..
Life would be so stinkin boring. Anything you want is yours, at your beck and call..
After about fifty years or so of wine, schnapps, music and naughty women folk, I would be kind of worn out, heh heh.
I think that kind of thinking is fairly intoxicating. Seems people get jazzed up just THINKING they can perform the magic ritual, and get whatever they want.. whether it actually works or not.
I think its addictive.
I have seen the most angry side of people when I challenged them to just verify if what they "believe" really works, or not. Give me some details! Anybody can talk..
"You say it, you believe it, and God will bring it to pass" is only valid in a few instances, at least in my opinion.
Maybe that's why old Loy and others got so mean. Finally realized that they were not able to jump over debils with a single bound, that they were not anywhere near the men they convinced themselves they were supposed to be.
Receiving healing is much easier now because, instead of creating a mental picture of me being healthy, I just focus on the verse that says "...by whose stripes you were healed
Same here. I guess I still believe in believing, just in the right context.
Of course that means VP's memorable PFAL declaration, "You say it, you believe it, God will bring it to pass!" is hogwash, but I think we all know that already.
Speak for yourself.
I know that.
You know that.
I can name at least one person who DOESN'T know that-or at least, refuses to ADMIT
that.
I stand corrected Wordwolf. I should have said, "I wish we all knew that already".
quote:
I believe in believing God.
Cool Raf.
I believe in beleving God too. But my Mom doesn't get the law of beliving. She's an unbelieving believer. How about if you believe with me to get my believing up so I can manifest a more abundant life so my Mom will stop believing that I'm in a cult and then she'll be a believer too. :-)
The five sacred keys we were taught, know what's available, how to receive, what to do, need and want parallel, and God's ability equals Gods willingness.
The ONLY one of these five *keys* that I agree with, is the last one, and even that is not neccessary either.
Certainly some of these *keys* were evident in the miracles and healings recorded in the bible, but to lump them all together as "here's how ya do it, son", is ridiculous. God's grace transcends the *modern math* that docvic tried to propound -- going far above and beyond the limits and restrictions of *five keys*.
It's a shame docvic isn't alive today to tell us how these 5 keys worked for that man in India so long ago. --> I bet that guy over there never had a clue as to what one of these five keys were (except perhaps the last one), much less all of them lumped together as the formula for success.
I think believing, or even more properly faith- has more of a spiritual nature. Not so much an action of the human mind, but that is obviously a necessary part.
As corny as it may sound- and opposite to what I learned in PFAL- I think there is a little bit of truth in the statement the God gives faith to be healed, or to work miracles- if God does not energize it, all the mental gymnastics in the world is not going to produce the results you think God "owes" you.
Mr. H --- I agree (especially with what I *bolded*).
Faith equals trust;
Believing can equal trust;
Faith can equal believing;
But --- neither Faith, or Believing equals manipulation.
The heart of a child asking for something is asking from need, or desire, or total lack of ability to *fend* for themselves. The child understands that they cannot do anything for themselves, and has *faith*, *believing*, and/or *trust* that their higher power (whomever that may be), will deliver. No manipulation involved, nor no *mental gymnastics* about knowing how to receive, what to do with it, etc.
Docvic talked a lot, but said little about this subject -- when it came to him and his life. I am surprised that he did not equate these 5 keys with his *gas pump* experience (cough) -- showing all us *faithful followers* how he utilized these keys to show us the Word, as it hasn't been known for centuries.
If he couldn't account for how it worked in his life, how in the he!! could he *teach us* to expect for it to work in our lives?? I never once heard him say how any one of these five keys were at work in his life, much less all 5, all the time.
He kept going to scripture, and hounding on what was recorded there -- in order to give himself some semblence of credence (harummmph - it's scripture you know!), and wouldn't even pull a *rabbit out of the hat*, when it came to his own life, to show us how he utilized what he taught, and put into personal practice before he taught others *how to do it* according to his revelation.
But --- neither Faith, or Believing equals manipulation.
Absolutely true David, in my opinion also. But how often I personally tried that, thinking if I had stuff lined up just right, or had just the right picture of the result I wanted in MY mind, that God would HAVE to bring it to pass.
A couple of times, it worked.
Usually, it didn't.
"The heart of a child asking for something is asking from need, or desire, or total lack of ability to *fend* for themselves."
So much for "holy boldness", at least the way I was taught, or at the very least, the way I understood it.
But how often I personally tried that, thinking if I had stuff lined up just right, or had just the right picture of the result I wanted in MY mind, that God would HAVE to bring it to pass.
A couple of times, it worked.
Usually, it didn't.
Yup, I hear that. As they say -- Even a blind squirrel will occassionally find a nut, and a stopped clock is always right twice a day.
Whenever I had things *lined up right*, it usually failed miserably. When my heart's cry came out of true need (with no thought of the *math* involved), I got answers immediately.
Am guessing *holy boldness* should be viewed from a child's mindset, and not an adult's, eh? ;)-->
Trefor, I think most of us were dazzled- VP if not anything else, was a good salesman. My impression is that he convinced us that he was convinced. Whether he really was, may be another story altogether..
True, true. But remember what your friend Mr. Floyd had to say!
But what I observed: many were obsessed with trying to document how these "keys" worked in their lives. And usually they were the most mundane, trivial, and questionable events. "I must've got it right today, I got my favorite parking spot in front of Wal-Mart..."
Questionable at best.
NEVER did I hear- "I applied the keys, and my missing leg grew back". Why not?
And "God's ability equals His willingness". I don't quite buy that in its entirety, any more.
God is not going to knock the moon out of its orbit for me, no matter how special I think I am. Few here would question that he is ABLE to do such a thing. Willing- no.
Good grief. Maybe its more of a teaching called "how to weasel anything out of the almighty in five easy lessons".
Really. You get in town, and you scout out the lay of the land (what's available)
Now you start working out the details of how you're gonna get it. Act religious, pray, picture yourself walking on the moon- maybe you don't think you're really doing this, but perhaps you are trying to prove to God that you believe or something.. but its not out of love. It's to get something for oneself, somehow scam it out of HIM.
Then you have to convince HIM that its for a good purpose. That it will be used properly to move the verd, or to show how a "believer" prospers, or etc, etc,..
But what you can squeeze out of God, well, you want something that you can carry off. Something that may require some kind of commitment or self-sacrifice, well, you don't NEED THAT.
If all else fails, remind the Almighty that he surely has the ability and willingness to pull it off, if He is "anybody" in the universe..
And we actually thought that God would somehow see it OUR way.. good grief.
I think its somewhere close to blasphemy to think the almighty can't see through such a transparent ploy.
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Jbarrax
I agree Hammeroni. VP says in PFAL that in each case of deliverance in the Bible, all five keys are evident. That's so far beyond exxageration, it can only be called a lie. The amazing thing is, he made this statement and then used the record in Mark chapter three (the man with the withered hand) as his proof text. There's nothing in that passage that says the man knew that God's ability equaled God's willingness. Nor does Mark say that the man had his needs and wants parallel. Does Mark record that the man found out what was available? No. He was simply sitting in the synagogue.
I could go on, but I would belabor the point. VP had a terrible habit of making assumptions and then trying to find Scriptures that he could use to support them. Sometimes they fit, many times they don't.
The bottom line is, the class on keys, is more accurately described as a class on half-baked assumptions.
Nevertheless, there are some gems in there, such as speaking in tongues, and postitive believing (which is not a "law" but a pretty darn good idea).
Peace
JerryB
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Raf
Not only that, but if it's the record I'm thinking about, the man actually confessed unbelief... and STILL got the deliverance he sought! No, wait, that's another record. Still...
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Ham
I read several accounts where the guy involved did not know what to do with it after he received it until after he received it. "Go, and sin no more", "Tell no man", "go make the offering Moses commanded.." All well AFTER the big event took place.
So maybe having all this stuff lined up to pry a miracle out of God's hands isn't quite so right.
Even believing. Sure, believing "works". "Whosoever shall say to this mountain..." but what if the Almighty likes the mountain right where he put it? Nothing's gonna happen.
I think believing, or even more properly faith- has more of a spiritual nature. Not so much an action of the human mind, but that is obviously a necessary part.
As corny as it may sound- and opposite to what I learned in PFAL- I think there is a little bit of truth in the statement the God gives faith to be healed, or to work miracles- if God does not energize it, all the mental gymnastics in the world is not going to produce the results you think God "owes" you.
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Jbarrax
You bring up a good point about "the law of believing" Hammeroni. The lc of WV did a teaching back in 89 or so that cleared that up for me. He said that the truth is that believing is a response to a promise from God, not something you decide to do on your own. Using the famous Blue Book article Release From Your Prisons, he interpreted the clear picture VP uses in his camera analogy as the Scripture. If you focus on the Scripture, or revealed will of God (in the case of revelation)you will get the result. If you focus on a picture of your own making and "believe for it" to happen, you are, in effect, playing God. But mostly you're just setting yourself up for frustration because it doesn't work!
I think if you look at the Biblical use of the word pistis you can rightly understand it to be a positive response to, or acceptance of, a promise of God. This teaching literally changed my life. Receiving healing is much easier now because, instead of creating a mental picture of me being healthy, I just focus on the verse that says "...by whose stripes you were healed."
I get much, much better results this way.
Of course that means VP's memorable PFAL declaration, "You say it, you believe it, God will bring it to pass!" is hogwash, but I think we all know that already.
Peace
JerryB
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WordWolf
Speak for yourself.
I know that.
You know that.
I can name at least one person who DOESN'T know that-or at least, refuses to ADMIT
that.
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Ham
Oh yes.. "you say it, you believe it, and God will bring it to pass".
What in the dadburned world is "it"?
"Well, its Da Word"..
If its that simple, I think people would have NO PROBLEM clearing out hospitals and sanitariums by saying it and believing it..
Life would be so stinkin boring. Anything you want is yours, at your beck and call..
After about fifty years or so of wine, schnapps, music and naughty women folk, I would be kind of worn out, heh heh.
I think that kind of thinking is fairly intoxicating. Seems people get jazzed up just THINKING they can perform the magic ritual, and get whatever they want.. whether it actually works or not.
I think its addictive.
I have seen the most angry side of people when I challenged them to just verify if what they "believe" really works, or not. Give me some details! Anybody can talk..
"You say it, you believe it, and God will bring it to pass" is only valid in a few instances, at least in my opinion.
Maybe that's why old Loy and others got so mean. Finally realized that they were not able to jump over debils with a single bound, that they were not anywhere near the men they convinced themselves they were supposed to be.
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Ham
Same here. I guess I still believe in believing, just in the right context.
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Raf
I believe in believing God.
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Jbarrax
I stand corrected Wordwolf. I should have said, "I wish we all knew that already".
Cool Raf.
I believe in beleving God too. But my Mom doesn't get the law of beliving. She's an unbelieving believer. How about if you believe with me to get my believing up so I can manifest a more abundant life so my Mom will stop believing that I'm in a cult and then she'll be a believer too. :-)
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Raf
I'm a pepper, you're a pepper, he's a pepper...
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dmiller
The ONLY one of these five *keys* that I agree with, is the last one, and even that is not neccessary either.
Certainly some of these *keys* were evident in the miracles and healings recorded in the bible, but to lump them all together as "here's how ya do it, son", is ridiculous. God's grace transcends the *modern math* that docvic tried to propound -- going far above and beyond the limits and restrictions of *five keys*.
It's a shame docvic isn't alive today to tell us how these 5 keys worked for that man in India so long ago.
--> I bet that guy over there never had a clue as to what one of these five keys were (except perhaps the last one), much less all of them lumped together as the formula for success.
David
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dmiller
Mr. H --- I agree (especially with what I *bolded*).
Faith equals trust;
Believing can equal trust;
Faith can equal believing;
But --- neither Faith, or Believing equals manipulation.
The heart of a child asking for something is asking from need, or desire, or total lack of ability to *fend* for themselves. The child understands that they cannot do anything for themselves, and has *faith*, *believing*, and/or *trust* that their higher power (whomever that may be), will deliver. No manipulation involved, nor no *mental gymnastics* about knowing how to receive, what to do with it, etc.
Docvic talked a lot, but said little about this subject -- when it came to him and his life. I am surprised that he did not equate these 5 keys with his *gas pump* experience (cough) -- showing all us *faithful followers* how he utilized these keys to show us the Word, as it hasn't been known for centuries.
If he couldn't account for how it worked in his life, how in the he!! could he *teach us* to expect for it to work in our lives?? I never once heard him say how any one of these five keys were at work in his life, much less all 5, all the time.
He kept going to scripture, and hounding on what was recorded there -- in order to give himself some semblence of credence (harummmph - it's scripture you know!), and wouldn't even pull a *rabbit out of the hat*, when it came to his own life, to show us how he utilized what he taught, and put into personal practice before he taught others *how to do it* according to his revelation.
David
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Ham
Absolutely true David, in my opinion also. But how often I personally tried that, thinking if I had stuff lined up just right, or had just the right picture of the result I wanted in MY mind, that God would HAVE to bring it to pass.
A couple of times, it worked.
Usually, it didn't.
"The heart of a child asking for something is asking from need, or desire, or total lack of ability to *fend* for themselves."
So much for "holy boldness", at least the way I was taught, or at the very least, the way I understood it.
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dmiller
Yup, I hear that. As they say -- Even a blind squirrel will occassionally find a nut, and a stopped clock is always right twice a day.
Whenever I had things *lined up right*, it usually failed miserably. When my heart's cry came out of true need (with no thought of the *math* involved), I got answers immediately.
Am guessing *holy boldness* should be viewed from a child's mindset, and not an adult's, eh?
;)-->
David
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Oakspear
So why, if Wierwille really wasn't documenting this stuff from the bible, did we believe it?
Because he SAID he was documenting it from the bible, most of us didn't know jack about the bible, and he was dazzling us with b.s.!
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Trefor Heywood
I did know jack and was still dazzled at the time!
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Ham
Trefor, I think most of us were dazzled- VP if not anything else, was a good salesman. My impression is that he convinced us that he was convinced. Whether he really was, may be another story altogether..
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What The Hay
I have a jack - but I'm not going to help you! Or as you already aptly put it: I'd help you, but I don't have a jack either.
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Ham
True, true. But remember what your friend Mr. Floyd had to say!
But what I observed: many were obsessed with trying to document how these "keys" worked in their lives. And usually they were the most mundane, trivial, and questionable events. "I must've got it right today, I got my favorite parking spot in front of Wal-Mart..."
Questionable at best.
NEVER did I hear- "I applied the keys, and my missing leg grew back". Why not?
And "God's ability equals His willingness". I don't quite buy that in its entirety, any more.
God is not going to knock the moon out of its orbit for me, no matter how special I think I am. Few here would question that he is ABLE to do such a thing. Willing- no.
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Trefor Heywood
Yes Mr Hammeroni we were convinced he was and to such an extent that it infused us too. Doubts got pushed to the margins somewhat.
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def59
vpw' keys were based on the assumption that God lives to make us safe, happy and comfortable.
It relies on the thesis that we are the center of God's universe.
In my studies I am seeing how God lives for God and seeks to make his name famous in the world.
All the miracles in the Bible were designed to bring glory and honor to God.
All God's blessings are designed for us to use to proclaim his name in the world. That's the key to the promise made to Abraham in Gen. 12.
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Ham
Sure makes more sense than the alternative, "miracles" bringing glory and honor to OUR supposed cleverness.
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Jbarrax
Good observations there Def.
Peace
JerryB
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Ham
Another thread got me on this again..
Good grief. Maybe its more of a teaching called "how to weasel anything out of the almighty in five easy lessons".
Really. You get in town, and you scout out the lay of the land (what's available)
Now you start working out the details of how you're gonna get it. Act religious, pray, picture yourself walking on the moon- maybe you don't think you're really doing this, but perhaps you are trying to prove to God that you believe or something.. but its not out of love. It's to get something for oneself, somehow scam it out of HIM.
Then you have to convince HIM that its for a good purpose. That it will be used properly to move the verd, or to show how a "believer" prospers, or etc, etc,..
But what you can squeeze out of God, well, you want something that you can carry off. Something that may require some kind of commitment or self-sacrifice, well, you don't NEED THAT.
If all else fails, remind the Almighty that he surely has the ability and willingness to pull it off, if He is "anybody" in the universe..
And we actually thought that God would somehow see it OUR way.. good grief.
I think its somewhere close to blasphemy to think the almighty can't see through such a transparent ploy.
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