As far as I can see, there is no difference between talking and praying, except one term is used exclusively when the other side doesn't say a word in return. Talking usually leads to conversation, praying doesn't.
Prayer is more submissive you in relationship tp a Higher power--Talkling is just talking to GOD and Jesus just as you would to anyone else. I talk alot but I pray alot too not onl;y asking for things by thanking GOD for the many blessing in my life.
And No you don't pray to Jesus You pray to God in Jesus' name
I wanted to go into this very subject on the thread, too, but wasn't getting questions answered that were already asked...and since I had already started two threads back-to-back, I thought I'd better 'back down' a little. LOL ;)-->
Anyway...
Talking, praying, worship...
Dividing these things up into pieces...well, it's like dividing up the Godhead, imo: the result is confusion and leads only to strife.
Oh...I must say this...
It was made perfectly clear to me that Jesus could be a devil spirit, that praying to Him could lead to possession, and that anybody who actually saw Jesus was probably of the 'seed boy' ilk.
With all due respect to White Dove, he enjoyed a 'kinder, gentler' experience in twi during our twi years together...
So, my point is that yes, he probably did have more latitude to think for himself...he certainly had more access to 'inner sanctum' information...
So, again with all due respect to White Dove, he was free to stick only to veep's 'intended' meanings...and slough off maniacal twig leader and corpse rantings.
(I'm really not picking on you, White Dove...you just happened to be handy...and, of the veep apologists here, you're the easiest to go back-and-forth with.)
Yet, all that said, if veep 'intended' for things to mean something totally different than what his underlings were shoving down people's throats, I still don't understand how that lets veep off the hook for not stopping the lies...ya know?
OK...
Now back to our regularly scheduled program...
The bible is perfectly clear that no man comes to the Father but by Jesus....
And that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word...
Which I have finally learned is NOT the written word, but the spoken, revealed word...i.e., Jesus.
Nit-picking over Jesus being present or absent based upon whether or not he's wearing flesh...well...that's another topic...
But my point is that Jesus is the first and only step.
Jesus is the mediator between us and God.
No matter what words we use to describe a relationship with Jesus, it's just that: a relationship. How we relate to Him is quite simple: we talk with Him; we walk with Him; we enjoy His presence; we sing to and with Him; we treat Him as if He is our best friend and our dear lover (not sex partner...pull yer minds outta yer pants for a few, OK? ;)--> yes, part of being a lover is physical intimacy...and Jesus needs to be physically intimate with us to heal us...remember that the relationship with Jesus is likened to the marital relationship).
In short, we act as if He's right here in the room with us...
Because He is!
I'm learning to stop nit-picking semantics and start enjoying the relationship.
I mean, seriously, what kind of human-to-human relationships would we have if we nit-picked them apart like we do a relationship with Jesus?
...and who recalls the teaching that there was a debbil spurt named Jesus?...and if you prayed to Jesus, you might get possessed?
There's no way that Jesus was allowed into a twi fellowship...that would have encroached on the twi leader's "authority" and right to run your life for you.
I wanted to go into this very subject on the thread, too, but wasn't getting questions answered that were already asked...and since I had already started two threads back-to-back, I thought I'd better 'back down' a little. LOL
ROFLMAO!!! That's never stopped me, Darlene CW!! :D--> :D--> :D-->
I think drawing a distinction between talking and praying regarding Jesus is moot because either way it's acknowledging him and relationship driven, which is absolutely contrary to anything I was taught in TWI. "You have a direct line to God. Why would you need to talk to Jesus?"
I also think, but I don't know for sure, that vee pee really didn't spend much time teaching about Jesus and a personal relationship with him or why else would that person have had to write to vee pee? Why would vee pee have to tell people to go wherever they had to go to learn about him? Because they weren't going to get what they needed and should have from TWIts!! (My opinion only)
"You have a direct line to God. Why would you need to talk to Jesus?"
Strange. I must have not been able to get any dial-tone on my "direct line." I could never even get through to voice mail, let alone his right-hand man.
I have no problem with either talking to, or praying to Jesus. :)-->
Certainly twi gave me a different *road map* to follow, as concerns this subject -- but once again - the *direction* they offered led the wrong "way". :(-->
I guess they (twi) forgot Hebrews 7:25, that says Jesus Christ (as our High Priest) lives forever to make intercession for us. Well -- how can He intercede for us, if we don't tell Him our wishes? :D-->
I find it really hard to believe that God would get ticked off at anyone for praying to the man He exalted to His own right hand, and set above all powers that be. God put Jesus in that position, because as the second Adam -- he (Jesus) proved he was compliant with God's wishes. And as the second *Morning Star* -- Jesus also proved He was not in opposition to God, the way the adversary was/is.
If Jesus is the mediator between God and man (I Tim. 2:5), then it follows that he has to be talked to (at least) and prayed to (entreated) at other times, for Him to mediate.
Makes sense to me (these days) -- but it surely did not back in twi.
Coolwaters: Really? A VP Apologist? Because I speak the truth?
Apologist- n - A person who agues in defense or justification of another person or cause. (Webster)
I don't recall from my post defending or justifying him or his cause. I think if you look back you will see that I only corrected some false assumption about what he said. Thats called truth. I offered proof of what I said a letter. I have seen no such proof offered in oposition . If you have any such evidence bring it on. My point is and will be truth. People come to greasespot looking for information not peoples made up ideas and speculations. You need sound information to make right decisions wrong information serves no one . Truth offers credibility not error.
Really isn't that sorta waylike to just make up things about people and what they said isn't that what they do once you leave . I'll not apolgize for holding a better standard.
Sorry to hear that you don't like words seperated into proper meanings life must be hard living that way. I am glad I learned the differance between adding and subtracting gosh my checkbook would be a mess!! I wonder how you do it? having all the words mean the same thing. I hope you have not confused the brake with the accelator in your car that could be a problem... Sorry to burst your bubble here but the Bible is made up of words and they like in english have meanings (not all the same). You see right now I am SPEAKING to you but I am not PRAYING to you. (A concordance will give you a quick idea of what prayer is) as I said it could involve speaking but speaking does not need involve prayer. Failure to properly seperate words and their meanings have caused no end of problems in the way. Take believing for example we lumped all sorts of words like positive thoughts, trust, prayer, helping, confidence and so on in with believing not understanding the difference caused no end of havic and confusion. Believing is really pretty simple receiving information and then accepting it as true and then getting the results. If I say to you that I sent you a check, you can believe it and take it from your mailbox or not believe it and loose out. Now if YOU decide that I sent you a check you will have a problem because you have no words to beleive ,except for your own made up ones. Believing is not a law, or making up things to believe one must have something true spoken to believe. not surprising it works the same in the biblical field. Once you have something to believe (not imagined) be it from scripture or by revelation manifestations then you can accept it or not.
Quote:
With all due respect to White Dove, he enjoyed a 'kinder, gentler' experience in twi during our twi years together...
So, my point is that yes, he probably did have more latitude to think for himself...he certainly had more access to 'inner sanctum' information...
So, again with all due respect to White Dove, he was free to stick only to veep's 'intended' meanings...and slough off maniacal twig leader and corpse rantings.
I wonder where you got this idea. You have no idea what my experience was . Were you aware that the house you lived in at Western street was there in part at my expence? A consentience choice to be blackballed so that others may benefit from it being there.
Last time I looked thinking was available to everyone if you choose to. Were you not encouraged to study to understand for yourself ? I never sloughed off anything, rantings were never my standard for truth . If you failed to speak up for what you believed to be true that is /was your choice.
Quote:
Yet, all that said, if veep 'intended' for things to mean something totally different than what his underlings were shoving down people's throats, I still don't understand how that lets veep off the hook for not stopping the lies...ya know?
Again I don't recall saying it did . That was your assumption my guess is your anger refuses to let you see the differance between speaking the "truth or facts and support". But there again is that word thing they mean different things. Read my post again it simply said here are the facts as to what he said no support or nonsupport. By the way did you read the part where I said that he did not exactly promote this idea? Why? I can't say I'm not VP and I won't guess because I don't know his thoughts neither does anyone else and I won't assume I do because my anger makes it ok to do so.
Quote: I'm learning to stop nit-picking semantics and start enjoying the relationship.
While I agree with you statement that the relationship is the important thing my prior post was not addressing this subject only that there was a difference in the two words and that VP agreed that there was ,at least according to his letter.
I don't believe it is a one or the other thing I prefer to know what I am doing. I don't think it confuses anything quite the opposite really,to understand if I am Speaking or Praying . And speaking of that relationship with Jesus didn't he say pray to the Father . I have seen no place in the Bible where he encouraged any prayer to himself or self promotion, I see a lot of scripture's that say the opposite. But I suppose if you do not understand words then you just make up things as you go which is by the way your choice . It is just not Biblical or the Truth.
Quote: (I'm really not picking on you, White Dove...you just happened to be handy...and, of the veep apologists here, you're the easiest to go back-and-forth with.)
Feel free anytime but I must say after all these years I know that once you have your mind set my words most likely will not sway your position . If you change it will be because you choose to on your own time schedule. As it should be. So I am not looking to argue or convince you or anyone else for that matter only to keep the truth straight.
OK, White Dove, I'm having a difficult time sifting through your post and coming out with what you're saying about the subject at hand and what you're questioning about me as a person...but I'll try. ;)-->
Since it is my first reaction to your post, I'll first address what you question about me as a person...
I never lived in the house on Western. I was there a whole lot, yes. I was there for branch meetings. I was there for special guest speakers like R**s T***y. I was there to hang out with folks like B*** Y***.
I was never allowed to attend twig there, though. Once BG found out what B and T B were doing to me, I was 'blackballed', to use your term, to the point that BB bore false witness against me to the DA of Shawnee County...to the end result that a rapist was released from county jail and within the hour after his release he raped a 12yo little girl. But he was a 'babe', doncha know, and it was BG's decision that a 'babe' was to be afforded 'grace' at all costs.
I am angry. I am angry that what I was shown in twi to be 'truth' was a twisted version...and that, because it was so very twisted, situations like I just described marked my every experience with twi.
So why'd I stay around?
Because I thought I had been taught the "word of God like it had never been revealed since the First Century".
What was my little peon mind against such a thing???????
I did, btw, "speak up for what {I} believed to be true"...as you put my supposed 'failure'.
The very first result of my doing that was BB's false witness against me.
The very last result of my doing that was a branch leader, a twig leader and a 'babe' ending up in prison for sexual and physical attacks against little children.
There's so much more in between that I leave out in respect of people's lives.
So please don't ever again toss up to my face any time that I ever "failed to speak up for what {I} believed to be true". That just didn't happen...and not only I, but my children and others paid a terrible price for others not speaking up...or speaking lies and partial truths to 'protect the household'.
And you know firsthand that I did indeed speak up...and some of what happened as a result.
Just don't go there to prove a point anymore, please. Thank you very much.
*********************
Now about this whole 'truth' thing...
First and foremost, 'truth' when it comes to twi is often presented exactly with way brain:
not telling everything one knows (it was often said to me in twi, "telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know...it just means being truthful with what you do tell")
ignoring evidence of eye-witnesses...one's own, most often
belittling and badgering those who present different 'evidence', and
if all else fails, reject a person's ability to think, reason and run their own lives.
Yes, veep wrote a letter. Yes, you posted that letter as evidence (I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself").
The very fact that veep did not stop his underlings from demanding twits believe exactly the opposite of what he put forth in your 'evidence' is 'proof' he really didn't quite believe his own words.
What Belle said is a perfect example: veep was also once a trinitarian and 'taught' from that point of view.
The man constantly changed his mind. If nothing else...but there was much else...as provided by the testimony of eye-witnesses.
Veep was obviously very careful not to put too much 'evidence' into writing. Just because you have something written to 'prove' anything at all about the man does not mean you have honest evidence of what the man was really like...and what he was really 'expounding'.
As for you being an apologist...well, White Dove, what you are doing is taking your experience of 'truth' and telling me that what I know isn't 'true'. There's an argument in there somewhere...and you're certainly taking sides.
How in the world can anyone even consider an unrepentant rapist, adulterer, pimp, philanderer...whatever words can be used here...how can anybody at all consider anything such a man ever said as truth?
Until one stops using twi brain as one's 'center reference for truth', one cannot receive any other truth.
*********************
Now for the difference between praying and talking...
Looking into Strong's, prayer in the Gospels and the Pauline Espistles amounts to some simple things: a wishing for, an entreaty, a begging for, a call to one's side, a form of worship.
When one spends time with Jesus, one does these things...and more.
Trying to explain the difference between talking to Jesus or praying to Jesus by using human relationships is fouled in premise...it's apples and oranges.
Maybe the real question here might be...
"Does one pray to Jesus or through Jesus?"
In reality, it pans out to be semantics, though.
We have no access to the Father but by Jesus.
There's quite a bit of difference between that last statement and the "direct connection" taught to me in twi.
Sorry for not speaking more clearly I maybe should have put a comma there or something.
If,you failed to speak up for what you believed to be true that is /was your choice.
I meant to say IF as in I don't know if you did or not. I was not commenting on you as a person. I thought you lived there at the house on western at one point, sometimes it was hard to know who lived there some of the time. I guess because I saw you there so often maybe. Anyway I brought it up because my experiences were not always as kinder gentler as you said. The incident you spoke of I was not aware of until long after it was over. As I said I was out of that loop but I was not impressed with alot of the things or decisions that were made there nor alot of the people BG included during that time.
I will read the rest later since ya did not hire me to think for you I have to go do some real work --> :D-->
First and foremost, 'truth' when it comes to twi is often presented exactly with way brain:
not telling everything one knows (it was often said to me in twi, "telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know...it just means being truthful with what you do tell")
ignoring evidence of eye-witnesses...one's own, most often
belittling and badgering those who present different 'evidence', and
if all else fails, reject a person's ability to think, reason and run their own lives.
Yes, veep wrote a letter. Yes, you posted that letter as evidence (I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself").
The very fact that veep did not stop his underlings from demanding twits believe exactly the opposite of what he put forth in your 'evidence' is 'proof' he really didn't quite believe his own words.End Quote:
You speak of truth in the way. I don't believe that I was! Iit is a different subject.. You accuse me of being a VP apologist yet you have no proof of such. Show me in those threads where I offered any apology for anything VP did . In fact any of my posts you wont find it..... Nice try when you have no proof discredit the truthbearer also a little Wayish I'd say.
Apologist- n - A person who agues in defense or justification of another person or cause. (Webster)
The truth is there is a letter that clarifies by his words what he believed to be true. You have offered no evidence to the contrary, Only I don't like what it says so it is wrong . It does not agree with how I feel . Sorry at the end of the day in a court a signed letter will win over I don't like the person so I made up whatever I want to discredit him. I am well aware that VP had people to answer his mail so do Rock Stars ,Actors,and CEO's of most companys. So What? I think you will find they represent the person in question not some radical idea they decided to say in their stead. You also are aware of how micromanaged things were in the Way any letter sent out with VPW's name on it would have been checked and rechecked you can bet. You yourself admit that VP was careful to watch what he put in print. Now you say he was not/ Which is it? Your grabbing at straws here.
Quote: What Belle said is a perfect example: veep was also once a trinitarian and 'taught' from that point of view.
The man constantly changed his mind. If nothing else...but there was much else...as provided by the testimony of eye-witnesses. End Quote:
Yeah and when I was 6mo old I thought wetting my pants was ok too. From the first teaching tape till the last you will find no where that VPW taught the trinity. This is the time period in discussion here. The first tape date is 5/23/65 . To imply that because he learned something in his seminary days and then learned differently years later .somehow proves your case that the letter is somehow wrong is dishonest.. He never taught the trinity in the time we were involved in the Way and you know it. It has as much sense to it as saying because I believed in wetting my pants at 6mo old that now anything I say is not true because I changed my mind. Give me a break
Quote: As for you being an apologist...well, White Dove, what you are doing is taking your experience of 'truth' and telling me that what I know isn't 'true'. There's an argument in there somewhere...and you're certainly taking sides.End Quote:
Nope what I did was take a letter posted in the Greasespot archives and present it as evidence that what was posted was not true. There is no argument in that for or against anything just a case of facts presented.it has not ONE shred of my experience in it . Which brings us to the real question here maybe . Why does it bother you so that a truthful record is put forth here? As I said untruth serves noone here. This is the reason that many remain lurkers and refuse to post here. Because any truth posted about the Way results in being branded a VP apologist and attacked. I rarely post myself in this forum because It does not take a rocket scientist to see that after all that has been posted very few opinions change either way. I expect that as an exway site it will not be proway. Fine with me. I did not expect it to be a place where truth, facts are denied as real because it does not support someones feelings of hatred. Interesting for all the talk of these great relationships with JESUS I don't see that his teachings have much to do with untruth and hatred.
Quote:Trying to explain the difference between talking to Jesus or praying to Jesus by using human relationships is fouled in premise...it's apples and oranges.End quote:
Not really I find that the Bible fits pretty well generaly with how life opperates granted there are some exceptions but for the most part it shows human relationships quite well. Believing ,talking/speaking praying all pretty much opperate the same in both worlds.
So I will wait for some creditable evidence that what the letter said is untrue. If not I will stand by my postings. I will continue to speak for truth be it about YOU or VPW. that is my only argument. Just the facts Mame just the facts......
First, I was not trying to discredit you by saying you are a veep apologist. I was merely placing you in a category that I saw fit...and then tried to explain why I placed you in that category. The only importance to me over this point was stupid.
It's not worth anything at all to me enough to argue you over it with you. OK?
Second, I never said veep taught trinity in twi.
Third, I'm not denying or in any way, shape or form saying that veep did not write that letter or that he was being dishonest when he wrote it.
I am saying, however, that there was dishonesty in the fact that he didn't stop his underlings from making life a living hell...on this point and many others. And I am saying that how he lived his life bespoke the lie of his words.
Fourth, saying that you presented evidence that makes what I posted about my eye-witness account(s) (as well as those of others) 'not true' is arguing in defence of a cause...which, in this case, is, by your own words, presenting your version of the 'truth' about veep.
Fifth, I wasn't questioning the validity of the letter...I was simply stating what veep apologists have answered to me concerning letters they didn't agree with. It was an aside sort of thing.
Sixth, I again say that what veep may have written or allowed to make it to tapes is not the total reality of who VPW was and what VPW did.
When was the last time you read Titus 1? It's a good start to get a biblical look at a man like VPW. Verse 15 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (I looked up 'works'...and it is basically what a person does in his/her daily life to earn a living.)
There are many, many testimonials in many places on the 'net of victims of veep's rape coach.
If that isn't enough to convince someone that they'd best reconsider veep's 'truth', then they don't want THE truth.
The scriptures are very clear about such things...over and over and over again...especially where it concerns those entrusted to oversee the body.
Seventh, UNCLE!!!!
You want to play semantics with this subject (talking v praying), feel free.
I'm quitting, though...it's circular argument at best...
**************
Now, White Dove, after all that's been said and done, what have you 'proven'?
"not telling everything one knows (it was often said to me in twi, "telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know...it just means being truthful with what you do tell")"
This is also the 'military' method of speaking.
Routinely people know details to a World event, but can not say so. It still flavours their world-view.
I can speak, and when I do speak I will endeavour to speak truthfuly and factually, but that does not mean that I will speak everything that I know [as many things I know are still classified].
It was not only TWI that taught such methodology.
That is why in a court of law when witness is asked to swore or affirm to speak "The truth and nothing but the truth", still does not mean that the witness must tell everything they know.
"... ignoring evidence of eye-witnesses...one's own, most often belittling and badgering those who present different 'evidence', and if all else fails, reject a person's ability to think, reason and run their own lives."
This on the other hand could well be dis-honest.
But there are times in life when we do have conflicting information coming to us.
If someone tells you that they just XYZ, but then someone else with more authority tells you that XYZ did not happen. Rather they can offer some other explanation. It is up to the individual which story they beleive.
Many times in life we see where two different eye-witnesses saw everything, yet they both disagree about what they saw. And they will both swear to their testamony.
Which is right?
I have dealt with Traffic accidents, and after getting both driver's statements and a statement from a by-stander; we commonly are left with looking at the damage and skid-marks to try and figure out for ourselves what happened. All because three or more different witnesses all saw different things.
Are they all lying? Possibly not.
"... Nice try when you have no proof discredit the truthbearer also a little Wayish I'd say."
Ouch it sounds like where you were had a lot of 'witch-hunts', keep in mind that not ALL fellowships were like that.
You can place me into what ever catagory you see fit that is your right. One would think though that it should at least resemble something about me if one was honest. I gave you the definition of an apologist. No where have I posted any apology for or about VPW. The records speak for themselves.
I agree
It's not worth anything at all to me enough to argue you over it with you. I was not looking to argue any point merly to bring to attention a fact and keep the record honest.
Quote:Fourth, saying that you presented evidence that makes what I posted about my eye-witness account(s) (as well as those of others) 'not true' is arguing in defence of a cause...which, in this case, is, by your own words, presenting your version of the 'truth' about veep.
I never discussed your eyewitness accounts. I'll say it again I posted a post informing Belle that perhaps she had some wrong information. You keep implying that I was posting some version about VP I did not.Only A LETTER THAT HE WROTE IT IS A FACT it makes no judjement comment about his life which was your issue you added into the mix. VP's life or lifestyle was not a part of my post only what he said he believed in the letter.
You did imply that the letter was not valid what else is the point of this?
Quote;
(I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself").
Sixth, I again say that what veep may have written or allowed to make it to tapes is not the total reality of who VPW was and what VPW did.
Never said it was . But it is a place to start ,one can learn from people's words about the person. See now we are back to what he did again it is you that keep adding this to the mix. which is the problem here VP did this or that so nothing truthful can be spoken about him unless it is bad. It is two seperate issues and each side of the coin is just that. Typical tactic when someone posts somthing that appears in favour of the Way. Actually not even in favour anything just not seething with hate. Don't address the issue lets tak about what he did.
Incase you have forgotten here is the issue we were discussing:
Quote:MikeVPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation."
To which Belle replied:
quote:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it.
Unless it involves talking to him or talking to people outside TWI or reading books not published or sanctioned by TWI.
To which I pointed out was not what VP believed about praying /talking to Jesus and offered a letter as proof.
Quote : When was the last time you read Titus 1? It's a good start to get a biblical look at a man like VPW. Verse 15 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (I looked up 'works'...and it is basically what a person does in his/her daily life to earn a living.)
There are many, many testimonials in many places on the 'net of victims of veep's rape coach.
If that isn't enough to convince someone that they'd best reconsider veep's 'truth', then they don't want THE truth.
Here it is again this was not the topic. It was a letter. Charles Manson wrote letters He also killed people that does not make the letters he wrote untrue. Never disputed VP actions show me a place... Why can't we stick to topic about what VP said about praying and talking without having to hear about what he did like it is some new revelation?
Quote; You want to play semantics with this subject (talking v praying), feel free.
I will it is important to understand what you are doing in life. Words have meanings and they are not interchangable at will because you dislike someone.
Quote: Now, White Dove, after all that's been said and done, what have you 'proven'?
Well I did not set out to prove anything for what seems like fourtith time, Only to keep the facts straight about the subject at hand Prayer and Talking. But I'll give it a shot...
Let's see that your anger will not allow you to stay on topic. If someone mentions how nice the grass looked at the Way you will feel bound to change the conversation to what VP did which somehow will explain why the grass did not really look good. Grass looks good - VP did this two subjects. Admitting the grass looked nice does not imply that VP actions were right..
or offer any APPOLOGY.
That VP did not believe that talking and praying are the same thing. That no where is any real evidence that he did. At least to date. Only an assumption that his words on paper could not be right because he did blah blah blah... so somehow that means that words on paper can not be true..
That without evidence to show the opposite is true a letter in hand is worth any speculation in the bush....
You refuse to see any truth about VP except his actions. You refuse to acknowledge any of his words as true because of his actions, even though they may in fact be true it does not matter because of his lifstyle.
I am sad :(--> that hatred has blinded truth but that is your choice I wish you could see each for what they are seperate things. Perhaps one day that will happen I'll hold hope. Maybe jesus can show you how he stood against evil but not at the cost of forsaking those things that are truth. I wish you well on your Journey....
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Bob
As far as I can see, there is no difference between talking and praying, except one term is used exclusively when the other side doesn't say a word in return. Talking usually leads to conversation, praying doesn't.
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templelady
Prayer is more submissive you in relationship tp a Higher power--Talkling is just talking to GOD and Jesus just as you would to anyone else. I talk alot but I pray alot too not onl;y asking for things by thanking GOD for the many blessing in my life.
And No you don't pray to Jesus You pray to God in Jesus' name
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justloafing
I completley agree with Belle on this one. I never ever heard it was okay to talk with him or pray to him. We prayed in his name. That was it.
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CoolWaters
Hey there Ms Thelma Belle,
I wanted to go into this very subject on the thread, too, but wasn't getting questions answered that were already asked...and since I had already started two threads back-to-back, I thought I'd better 'back down' a little. LOL
;)-->
Anyway...
Talking, praying, worship...
Dividing these things up into pieces...well, it's like dividing up the Godhead, imo: the result is confusion and leads only to strife.
Oh...I must say this...
It was made perfectly clear to me that Jesus could be a devil spirit, that praying to Him could lead to possession, and that anybody who actually saw Jesus was probably of the 'seed boy' ilk.
With all due respect to White Dove, he enjoyed a 'kinder, gentler' experience in twi during our twi years together...
So, my point is that yes, he probably did have more latitude to think for himself...he certainly had more access to 'inner sanctum' information...
So, again with all due respect to White Dove, he was free to stick only to veep's 'intended' meanings...and slough off maniacal twig leader and corpse rantings.
(I'm really not picking on you, White Dove...you just happened to be handy...and, of the veep apologists here, you're the easiest to go back-and-forth with.)
Yet, all that said, if veep 'intended' for things to mean something totally different than what his underlings were shoving down people's throats, I still don't understand how that lets veep off the hook for not stopping the lies...ya know?
OK...
Now back to our regularly scheduled program...
The bible is perfectly clear that no man comes to the Father but by Jesus....
And that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word...
Which I have finally learned is NOT the written word, but the spoken, revealed word...i.e., Jesus.
Nit-picking over Jesus being present or absent based upon whether or not he's wearing flesh...well...that's another topic...
But my point is that Jesus is the first and only step.
Jesus is the mediator between us and God.
No matter what words we use to describe a relationship with Jesus, it's just that: a relationship. How we relate to Him is quite simple: we talk with Him; we walk with Him; we enjoy His presence; we sing to and with Him; we treat Him as if He is our best friend and our dear lover (not sex partner...pull yer minds outta yer pants for a few, OK?
;)--> yes, part of being a lover is physical intimacy...and Jesus needs to be physically intimate with us to heal us...remember that the relationship with Jesus is likened to the marital relationship).
In short, we act as if He's right here in the room with us...
Because He is!
I'm learning to stop nit-picking semantics and start enjoying the relationship.
I mean, seriously, what kind of human-to-human relationships would we have if we nit-picked them apart like we do a relationship with Jesus?
Does this make sense to you?
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and who recalls the teaching that there was a debbil spurt named Jesus?...and if you prayed to Jesus, you might get possessed?
There's no way that Jesus was allowed into a twi fellowship...that would have encroached on the twi leader's "authority" and right to run your life for you.
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Belle
ROFLMAO!!! That's never stopped me, Darlene CW!!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
I think drawing a distinction between talking and praying regarding Jesus is moot because either way it's acknowledging him and relationship driven, which is absolutely contrary to anything I was taught in TWI. "You have a direct line to God. Why would you need to talk to Jesus?"
I also think, but I don't know for sure, that vee pee really didn't spend much time teaching about Jesus and a personal relationship with him or why else would that person have had to write to vee pee? Why would vee pee have to tell people to go wherever they had to go to learn about him? Because they weren't going to get what they needed and should have from TWIts!! (My opinion only)
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Bob
Strange. I must have not been able to get any dial-tone on my "direct line." I could never even get through to voice mail, let alone his right-hand man.
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dmiller
I have no problem with either talking to, or praying to Jesus.
:)-->
Certainly twi gave me a different *road map* to follow, as concerns this subject -- but once again - the *direction* they offered led the wrong "way".
:(-->
I guess they (twi) forgot Hebrews 7:25, that says Jesus Christ (as our High Priest) lives forever to make intercession for us. Well -- how can He intercede for us, if we don't tell Him our wishes?
:D-->
I find it really hard to believe that God would get ticked off at anyone for praying to the man He exalted to His own right hand, and set above all powers that be. God put Jesus in that position, because as the second Adam -- he (Jesus) proved he was compliant with God's wishes. And as the second *Morning Star* -- Jesus also proved He was not in opposition to God, the way the adversary was/is.
If Jesus is the mediator between God and man (I Tim. 2:5), then it follows that he has to be talked to (at least) and prayed to (entreated) at other times, for Him to mediate.
Makes sense to me (these days) -- but it surely did not back in twi.
David
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WhiteDove
Coolwaters: Really? A VP Apologist? Because I speak the truth?
Apologist- n - A person who agues in defense or justification of another person or cause. (Webster)
I don't recall from my post defending or justifying him or his cause. I think if you look back you will see that I only corrected some false assumption about what he said. Thats called truth. I offered proof of what I said a letter. I have seen no such proof offered in oposition . If you have any such evidence bring it on. My point is and will be truth. People come to greasespot looking for information not peoples made up ideas and speculations. You need sound information to make right decisions wrong information serves no one . Truth offers credibility not error.
Really isn't that sorta waylike to just make up things about people and what they said isn't that what they do once you leave . I'll not apolgize for holding a better standard.
Sorry to hear that you don't like words seperated into proper meanings life must be hard living that way. I am glad I learned the differance between adding and subtracting gosh my checkbook would be a mess!! I wonder how you do it? having all the words mean the same thing. I hope you have not confused the brake with the accelator in your car that could be a problem... Sorry to burst your bubble here but the Bible is made up of words and they like in english have meanings (not all the same). You see right now I am SPEAKING to you but I am not PRAYING to you. (A concordance will give you a quick idea of what prayer is) as I said it could involve speaking but speaking does not need involve prayer. Failure to properly seperate words and their meanings have caused no end of problems in the way. Take believing for example we lumped all sorts of words like positive thoughts, trust, prayer, helping, confidence and so on in with believing not understanding the difference caused no end of havic and confusion. Believing is really pretty simple receiving information and then accepting it as true and then getting the results. If I say to you that I sent you a check, you can believe it and take it from your mailbox or not believe it and loose out. Now if YOU decide that I sent you a check you will have a problem because you have no words to beleive ,except for your own made up ones. Believing is not a law, or making up things to believe one must have something true spoken to believe. not surprising it works the same in the biblical field. Once you have something to believe (not imagined) be it from scripture or by revelation manifestations then you can accept it or not.
Quote:
With all due respect to White Dove, he enjoyed a 'kinder, gentler' experience in twi during our twi years together...
So, my point is that yes, he probably did have more latitude to think for himself...he certainly had more access to 'inner sanctum' information...
So, again with all due respect to White Dove, he was free to stick only to veep's 'intended' meanings...and slough off maniacal twig leader and corpse rantings.
I wonder where you got this idea. You have no idea what my experience was . Were you aware that the house you lived in at Western street was there in part at my expence? A consentience choice to be blackballed so that others may benefit from it being there.
Last time I looked thinking was available to everyone if you choose to. Were you not encouraged to study to understand for yourself ? I never sloughed off anything, rantings were never my standard for truth . If you failed to speak up for what you believed to be true that is /was your choice.
Quote:
Yet, all that said, if veep 'intended' for things to mean something totally different than what his underlings were shoving down people's throats, I still don't understand how that lets veep off the hook for not stopping the lies...ya know?
Again I don't recall saying it did . That was your assumption my guess is your anger refuses to let you see the differance between speaking the "truth or facts and support". But there again is that word thing they mean different things. Read my post again it simply said here are the facts as to what he said no support or nonsupport. By the way did you read the part where I said that he did not exactly promote this idea? Why? I can't say I'm not VP and I won't guess because I don't know his thoughts neither does anyone else and I won't assume I do because my anger makes it ok to do so.
Quote: I'm learning to stop nit-picking semantics and start enjoying the relationship.
While I agree with you statement that the relationship is the important thing my prior post was not addressing this subject only that there was a difference in the two words and that VP agreed that there was ,at least according to his letter.
I don't believe it is a one or the other thing I prefer to know what I am doing. I don't think it confuses anything quite the opposite really,to understand if I am Speaking or Praying . And speaking of that relationship with Jesus didn't he say pray to the Father . I have seen no place in the Bible where he encouraged any prayer to himself or self promotion, I see a lot of scripture's that say the opposite. But I suppose if you do not understand words then you just make up things as you go which is by the way your choice . It is just not Biblical or the Truth.
Quote: (I'm really not picking on you, White Dove...you just happened to be handy...and, of the veep apologists here, you're the easiest to go back-and-forth with.)
Feel free anytime but I must say after all these years I know that once you have your mind set my words most likely will not sway your position . If you change it will be because you choose to on your own time schedule. As it should be. So I am not looking to argue or convince you or anyone else for that matter only to keep the truth straight.
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CoolWaters
OK, White Dove, I'm having a difficult time sifting through your post and coming out with what you're saying about the subject at hand and what you're questioning about me as a person...but I'll try.
;)-->
Since it is my first reaction to your post, I'll first address what you question about me as a person...
I never lived in the house on Western. I was there a whole lot, yes. I was there for branch meetings. I was there for special guest speakers like R**s T***y. I was there to hang out with folks like B*** Y***.
I was never allowed to attend twig there, though. Once BG found out what B and T B were doing to me, I was 'blackballed', to use your term, to the point that BB bore false witness against me to the DA of Shawnee County...to the end result that a rapist was released from county jail and within the hour after his release he raped a 12yo little girl. But he was a 'babe', doncha know, and it was BG's decision that a 'babe' was to be afforded 'grace' at all costs.
I am angry. I am angry that what I was shown in twi to be 'truth' was a twisted version...and that, because it was so very twisted, situations like I just described marked my every experience with twi.
So why'd I stay around?
Because I thought I had been taught the "word of God like it had never been revealed since the First Century".
What was my little peon mind against such a thing???????
I did, btw, "speak up for what {I} believed to be true"...as you put my supposed 'failure'.
The very first result of my doing that was BB's false witness against me.
The very last result of my doing that was a branch leader, a twig leader and a 'babe' ending up in prison for sexual and physical attacks against little children.
There's so much more in between that I leave out in respect of people's lives.
So please don't ever again toss up to my face any time that I ever "failed to speak up for what {I} believed to be true". That just didn't happen...and not only I, but my children and others paid a terrible price for others not speaking up...or speaking lies and partial truths to 'protect the household'.
And you know firsthand that I did indeed speak up...and some of what happened as a result.
Just don't go there to prove a point anymore, please. Thank you very much.
*********************
Now about this whole 'truth' thing...
First and foremost, 'truth' when it comes to twi is often presented exactly with way brain:
Yes, veep wrote a letter. Yes, you posted that letter as evidence (I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself").
The very fact that veep did not stop his underlings from demanding twits believe exactly the opposite of what he put forth in your 'evidence' is 'proof' he really didn't quite believe his own words.
What Belle said is a perfect example: veep was also once a trinitarian and 'taught' from that point of view.
The man constantly changed his mind. If nothing else...but there was much else...as provided by the testimony of eye-witnesses.
Veep was obviously very careful not to put too much 'evidence' into writing. Just because you have something written to 'prove' anything at all about the man does not mean you have honest evidence of what the man was really like...and what he was really 'expounding'.
As for you being an apologist...well, White Dove, what you are doing is taking your experience of 'truth' and telling me that what I know isn't 'true'. There's an argument in there somewhere...and you're certainly taking sides.
How in the world can anyone even consider an unrepentant rapist, adulterer, pimp, philanderer...whatever words can be used here...how can anybody at all consider anything such a man ever said as truth?
Until one stops using twi brain as one's 'center reference for truth', one cannot receive any other truth.
*********************
Now for the difference between praying and talking...
Looking into Strong's, prayer in the Gospels and the Pauline Espistles amounts to some simple things: a wishing for, an entreaty, a begging for, a call to one's side, a form of worship.
When one spends time with Jesus, one does these things...and more.
Trying to explain the difference between talking to Jesus or praying to Jesus by using human relationships is fouled in premise...it's apples and oranges.
Maybe the real question here might be...
"Does one pray to Jesus or through Jesus?"
In reality, it pans out to be semantics, though.
We have no access to the Father but by Jesus.
There's quite a bit of difference between that last statement and the "direct connection" taught to me in twi.
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WhiteDove
Coolwaters
Sorry for not speaking more clearly I maybe should have put a comma there or something.
If,you failed to speak up for what you believed to be true that is /was your choice.
I meant to say IF as in I don't know if you did or not. I was not commenting on you as a person. I thought you lived there at the house on western at one point, sometimes it was hard to know who lived there some of the time. I guess because I saw you there so often maybe. Anyway I brought it up because my experiences were not always as kinder gentler as you said. The incident you spoke of I was not aware of until long after it was over. As I said I was out of that loop but I was not impressed with alot of the things or decisions that were made there nor alot of the people BG included during that time.
I will read the rest later since ya did not hire me to think for you I have to go do some real work
--> 
:D-->
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WhiteDove
Quote:
Now about this whole 'truth' thing...
First and foremost, 'truth' when it comes to twi is often presented exactly with way brain:
not telling everything one knows (it was often said to me in twi, "telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know...it just means being truthful with what you do tell")
ignoring evidence of eye-witnesses...one's own, most often
belittling and badgering those who present different 'evidence', and
if all else fails, reject a person's ability to think, reason and run their own lives.
Yes, veep wrote a letter. Yes, you posted that letter as evidence (I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself").
The very fact that veep did not stop his underlings from demanding twits believe exactly the opposite of what he put forth in your 'evidence' is 'proof' he really didn't quite believe his own words.End Quote:
You speak of truth in the way. I don't believe that I was! Iit is a different subject.. You accuse me of being a VP apologist yet you have no proof of such. Show me in those threads where I offered any apology for anything VP did . In fact any of my posts you wont find it..... Nice try when you have no proof discredit the truthbearer also a little Wayish I'd say.
Apologist- n - A person who agues in defense or justification of another person or cause. (Webster)
The truth is there is a letter that clarifies by his words what he believed to be true. You have offered no evidence to the contrary, Only I don't like what it says so it is wrong . It does not agree with how I feel . Sorry at the end of the day in a court a signed letter will win over I don't like the person so I made up whatever I want to discredit him. I am well aware that VP had people to answer his mail so do Rock Stars ,Actors,and CEO's of most companys. So What? I think you will find they represent the person in question not some radical idea they decided to say in their stead. You also are aware of how micromanaged things were in the Way any letter sent out with VPW's name on it would have been checked and rechecked you can bet. You yourself admit that VP was careful to watch what he put in print. Now you say he was not/ Which is it? Your grabbing at straws here.
Quote: What Belle said is a perfect example: veep was also once a trinitarian and 'taught' from that point of view.
The man constantly changed his mind. If nothing else...but there was much else...as provided by the testimony of eye-witnesses. End Quote:
Yeah and when I was 6mo old I thought wetting my pants was ok too. From the first teaching tape till the last you will find no where that VPW taught the trinity. This is the time period in discussion here. The first tape date is 5/23/65 . To imply that because he learned something in his seminary days and then learned differently years later .somehow proves your case that the letter is somehow wrong is dishonest.. He never taught the trinity in the time we were involved in the Way and you know it. It has as much sense to it as saying because I believed in wetting my pants at 6mo old that now anything I say is not true because I changed my mind. Give me a break
Quote: As for you being an apologist...well, White Dove, what you are doing is taking your experience of 'truth' and telling me that what I know isn't 'true'. There's an argument in there somewhere...and you're certainly taking sides.End Quote:
Nope what I did was take a letter posted in the Greasespot archives and present it as evidence that what was posted was not true. There is no argument in that for or against anything just a case of facts presented.it has not ONE shred of my experience in it . Which brings us to the real question here maybe . Why does it bother you so that a truthful record is put forth here? As I said untruth serves noone here. This is the reason that many remain lurkers and refuse to post here. Because any truth posted about the Way results in being branded a VP apologist and attacked. I rarely post myself in this forum because It does not take a rocket scientist to see that after all that has been posted very few opinions change either way. I expect that as an exway site it will not be proway. Fine with me. I did not expect it to be a place where truth, facts are denied as real because it does not support someones feelings of hatred. Interesting for all the talk of these great relationships with JESUS I don't see that his teachings have much to do with untruth and hatred.
Quote:Trying to explain the difference between talking to Jesus or praying to Jesus by using human relationships is fouled in premise...it's apples and oranges.End quote:
Not really I find that the Bible fits pretty well generaly with how life opperates granted there are some exceptions but for the most part it shows human relationships quite well. Believing ,talking/speaking praying all pretty much opperate the same in both worlds.
So I will wait for some creditable evidence that what the letter said is untrue. If not I will stand by my postings. I will continue to speak for truth be it about YOU or VPW. that is my only argument. Just the facts Mame just the facts......
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CoolWaters
White Dove,
First, I was not trying to discredit you by saying you are a veep apologist. I was merely placing you in a category that I saw fit...and then tried to explain why I placed you in that category. The only importance to me over this point was stupid.
It's not worth anything at all to me enough to argue you over it with you. OK?
Second, I never said veep taught trinity in twi.
Third, I'm not denying or in any way, shape or form saying that veep did not write that letter or that he was being dishonest when he wrote it.
I am saying, however, that there was dishonesty in the fact that he didn't stop his underlings from making life a living hell...on this point and many others. And I am saying that how he lived his life bespoke the lie of his words.
Fourth, saying that you presented evidence that makes what I posted about my eye-witness account(s) (as well as those of others) 'not true' is arguing in defence of a cause...which, in this case, is, by your own words, presenting your version of the 'truth' about veep.
Fifth, I wasn't questioning the validity of the letter...I was simply stating what veep apologists have answered to me concerning letters they didn't agree with. It was an aside sort of thing.
Sixth, I again say that what veep may have written or allowed to make it to tapes is not the total reality of who VPW was and what VPW did.
When was the last time you read Titus 1? It's a good start to get a biblical look at a man like VPW. Verse 15 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (I looked up 'works'...and it is basically what a person does in his/her daily life to earn a living.)
There are many, many testimonials in many places on the 'net of victims of veep's rape coach.
If that isn't enough to convince someone that they'd best reconsider veep's 'truth', then they don't want THE truth.
The scriptures are very clear about such things...over and over and over again...especially where it concerns those entrusted to oversee the body.
Seventh, UNCLE!!!!
You want to play semantics with this subject (talking v praying), feel free.
I'm quitting, though...it's circular argument at best...
**************
Now, White Dove, after all that's been said and done, what have you 'proven'?
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Galen
WhiteDove:
"not telling everything one knows (it was often said to me in twi, "telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know...it just means being truthful with what you do tell")"
This is also the 'military' method of speaking.
Routinely people know details to a World event, but can not say so. It still flavours their world-view.
I can speak, and when I do speak I will endeavour to speak truthfuly and factually, but that does not mean that I will speak everything that I know [as many things I know are still classified].
It was not only TWI that taught such methodology.
That is why in a court of law when witness is asked to swore or affirm to speak "The truth and nothing but the truth", still does not mean that the witness must tell everything they know.
"... ignoring evidence of eye-witnesses...one's own, most often belittling and badgering those who present different 'evidence', and if all else fails, reject a person's ability to think, reason and run their own lives."
This on the other hand could well be dis-honest.
But there are times in life when we do have conflicting information coming to us.
If someone tells you that they just XYZ, but then someone else with more authority tells you that XYZ did not happen. Rather they can offer some other explanation. It is up to the individual which story they beleive.
Many times in life we see where two different eye-witnesses saw everything, yet they both disagree about what they saw. And they will both swear to their testamony.
Which is right?
I have dealt with Traffic accidents, and after getting both driver's statements and a statement from a by-stander; we commonly are left with looking at the damage and skid-marks to try and figure out for ourselves what happened. All because three or more different witnesses all saw different things.
Are they all lying? Possibly not.
"... Nice try when you have no proof discredit the truthbearer also a little Wayish I'd say."
Ouch it sounds like where you were had a lot of 'witch-hunts', keep in mind that not ALL fellowships were like that.
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WhiteDove
Coolwaters
You can place me into what ever catagory you see fit that is your right. One would think though that it should at least resemble something about me if one was honest. I gave you the definition of an apologist. No where have I posted any apology for or about VPW. The records speak for themselves.
I agree
It's not worth anything at all to me enough to argue you over it with you. I was not looking to argue any point merly to bring to attention a fact and keep the record honest.
Quote:Fourth, saying that you presented evidence that makes what I posted about my eye-witness account(s) (as well as those of others) 'not true' is arguing in defence of a cause...which, in this case, is, by your own words, presenting your version of the 'truth' about veep.
I never discussed your eyewitness accounts. I'll say it again I posted a post informing Belle that perhaps she had some wrong information. You keep implying that I was posting some version about VP I did not.Only A LETTER THAT HE WROTE IT IS A FACT it makes no judjement comment about his life which was your issue you added into the mix. VP's life or lifestyle was not a part of my post only what he said he believed in the letter.
You did imply that the letter was not valid what else is the point of this?
Quote;
(I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself").
Sixth, I again say that what veep may have written or allowed to make it to tapes is not the total reality of who VPW was and what VPW did.
Never said it was . But it is a place to start ,one can learn from people's words about the person. See now we are back to what he did again it is you that keep adding this to the mix. which is the problem here VP did this or that so nothing truthful can be spoken about him unless it is bad. It is two seperate issues and each side of the coin is just that. Typical tactic when someone posts somthing that appears in favour of the Way. Actually not even in favour anything just not seething with hate. Don't address the issue lets tak about what he did.
Incase you have forgotten here is the issue we were discussing:
Quote:MikeVPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation."
To which Belle replied:
quote:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it.
Unless it involves talking to him or talking to people outside TWI or reading books not published or sanctioned by TWI.
To which I pointed out was not what VP believed about praying /talking to Jesus and offered a letter as proof.
Quote : When was the last time you read Titus 1? It's a good start to get a biblical look at a man like VPW. Verse 15 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (I looked up 'works'...and it is basically what a person does in his/her daily life to earn a living.)
There are many, many testimonials in many places on the 'net of victims of veep's rape coach.
If that isn't enough to convince someone that they'd best reconsider veep's 'truth', then they don't want THE truth.
Here it is again this was not the topic. It was a letter. Charles Manson wrote letters He also killed people that does not make the letters he wrote untrue. Never disputed VP actions show me a place... Why can't we stick to topic about what VP said about praying and talking without having to hear about what he did like it is some new revelation?
Quote; You want to play semantics with this subject (talking v praying), feel free.
I will it is important to understand what you are doing in life. Words have meanings and they are not interchangable at will because you dislike someone.
Quote: Now, White Dove, after all that's been said and done, what have you 'proven'?
Well I did not set out to prove anything for what seems like fourtith time, Only to keep the facts straight about the subject at hand Prayer and Talking. But I'll give it a shot...
Let's see that your anger will not allow you to stay on topic. If someone mentions how nice the grass looked at the Way you will feel bound to change the conversation to what VP did which somehow will explain why the grass did not really look good. Grass looks good - VP did this two subjects. Admitting the grass looked nice does not imply that VP actions were right..
or offer any APPOLOGY.
That VP did not believe that talking and praying are the same thing. That no where is any real evidence that he did. At least to date. Only an assumption that his words on paper could not be right because he did blah blah blah... so somehow that means that words on paper can not be true..
That without evidence to show the opposite is true a letter in hand is worth any speculation in the bush....
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CoolWaters
White Dove,
Evidently we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.
I, personally, have ceased in any effort I ever made to see veep's words without also looking at his actions.
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WhiteDove
Actually not! You just said it. We agree!!
You refuse to see any truth about VP except his actions. You refuse to acknowledge any of his words as true because of his actions, even though they may in fact be true it does not matter because of his lifstyle.
I am sad
:(--> that hatred has blinded truth but that is your choice I wish you could see each for what they are seperate things. Perhaps one day that will happen I'll hold hope. Maybe jesus can show you how he stood against evil but not at the cost of forsaking those things that are truth. I wish you well on your Journey....
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CoolWaters
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