No Bluesunday i do not remember that letter since I came in twi and the corps after you. I scoff at the first. That was their worst trick. As for the second. I can see it happening very easy. A guilt trip is all it was. Something we teach our 5 and 6 year olds to stay away from. We put our whole mind, body and soul into them. They just ripped us apart where and when they could. They never saw why we did not want to do something, They saw what they wanted us to do (Thus saith the Lord) and if we did not then they wished those thing on us. They should have according to there own lying standards "built you up".
I would love to hear how you over came what was told to you and sounds like spread all over twi.
Mine also said that if I let anything interfere with the fulfillment of my commitment, the vow I had made top God then it just proved that my heart had never REALLY been *corpes* to begin with....very scornfull.
It was scathing and ugly. I was quite taken aback that this man who had never met me could judge me so harshly.
I was following the recomendations of my leadership at the time.
Threats are nothing new for The Way International, for Craig Martindale, or even for their current leadership-- kinder and gentler though they claim to be.
M*rk W*ll*ce, who with his wife J*seph*ne are still higher level leadership with The Way International, made threats against people in my fellowship and against me and my family.
When a recently-widowed man in our fellowship allowed his daughter to be cared for by his adamantly anti-Way mother in law, W*ll*ce became irate.
When the man's dog died, W*ll*ce took the opportunity to insinuate that it was because the man was outside God's will in allowing his mother in law access to his daughter.
Giving the man an ultimatum to prohibit the mother in law's access to her own grandchild, W*ll*ce's response to him when he rejected it was,
"Who next in your family do you want to die?"
W*ll*ce tried various means to break up our marriage and interfere in our family's medical decisions. He eventually removed our fellowship from us, and gave the following ultimatum at the top of his lungs, loud enough for our 9 year old daughter to hear:
"If you don't get a passion for the truth, you (my husband) will die a lonely old man, you (myself) will be hobbled for life, and your daughter (just feet away from him) will be a stark raving lunatic!"
Threats of tragic maiming, illness, and threats of death are nothing new to The Way International. Threats are done as a matter of course in dealing with people who refuse to submit to their control.
The BOT rewarded W*ll*ce with a Region position. The Way International endorses his way of dealing with people. Death threats are JUST FINE with The Way International if you get on their bad side.
"If you don't get a passion for the truth, you (my husband) will die a lonely old man, you (myself) will be hobbled for life, and your daughter (just feet away from him) will be a stark raving lunatic!"
Unfortunately, this seems to describe what Mark has become. When I knew him, he was just an unprofessional, uneducated window washer, BUT, BUT, BUT, a nice guy.
Sounds like he's pronouncing Christian curses on people now. There's a really good book on how to rid yourself of the influence by Dennis Cramer. It's my next "read."
In 1977 I was scheduled to enter the 8th corps. I sent a letter to Emporia informing them of my decision not to attend. I received a letter from lcm threatening me if I did not keep my committment: He said that if I did not follow through with my committment then I would no longer be under the umbrella of God's protection.
My, my, my --- tales from the past, and all the way from 1977 even. Any of you innies listening to this?? I was *in* back then, and thought them to be the *good old days*. Guess they weren't so good after all (for some folks). -->
Shoot -- I wish my memory was better, cause if it was -- I'd remember who it was that said:
THE MORE THINGS CHANGE, THE MORE THEY REMAIN THE SAME.
Threats of tragic maiming, illness, and threats of death are nothing new to The Way International. Threats are done as a matter of course in dealing with people who refuse to submit to their control.
Hmppph -- and this from a *ministry* that used to purport and teach "I am come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly".
Somewhere on the *road of life*, they took a wrong turn. With threats like this -- they seem to be on the fast-track to the *smoking section* of eternity.
Mine also said that if I let anything interfere with the fulfillment of my commitment, the vow I had made to God then it just proved that my heart had never REALLY been *corpes* to begin with....very scornfull.
It was scathing and ugly. I was quite taken aback that this man who had never met me could judge me so harshly.
I was following the recomendations of my leadership at the time.
Geez Rascal -- guess that the "mog" had *heavy revvy*, while your local leadership did not.
Or maybe it was the other way around -- eh??
This is starting to sound like a "form letter" (that probably had a rubber-stamp signature on the bottom of it), sent out to all who thought better of committing themselves to slavery twi style.
Unfortunately, this seems to describe what Mark has become. When I knew him, he was just an unprofessional, uneducated window washer, BUT, BUT, BUT, a nice guy.
I knew him when he was a BC. Back then, he was nice, worked his arse off for the ministry, and supported lcm to the hilt. Right after that, Mark was ordained. And after that he got higher and higher up the ladder of twit leadership. Don't forget he was (is???) martinfail's best friend at the time trouble started in twitville paradise. I'm sure a nice guy got very clouded by the negative and judgmental attitude of the jerk he put on a pedestal.
I know his family wasn't perfect either. Where does he get off telling people such horrible things.....geez.
Yup Dave, The funny part was that I didn`t enter residence because I had decided to get married, with my leaderships blessings and encouragement....
Three short months later I get ANOTHER letter from the all knowing LCM welcoming me to the corpes household (I married a corpes man) ....that I was now part of the spiritual elite...i was so special yadda yadda....
I went from spiritual scum with no commitment or heart to wonder believer in 3 short months.....
It really suprised me that LCM would treat condemn someone with such contempt and venom ....completely dismiss them as believers without having any facts.
The most venomous letter I ever recieved though was when my husband didn`t write the apropriate response to the loyalty oath letter.
In the letter we recieved demanding a written oath of support and loyalty to lcm and the ministry, which Belligerantly demanded to know who we stood with....one line stood out glaringly....He said....*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*
That was the final straw of course as Mark said sadly, that *we would ALWAYS stand with God*
When Mark didn`t respond....the next letter we recieved was venomous.
It said that we were *salt that had lost it`s savor* (worthless) .... *fit only to be cast out into the street to be trod under the feet of the beasts*
This to two people who had supported and participated in the ministry whole heartedly for 10 and 15 years respectively.
M*rk W*ll*ce may be a Region Coordinator for The Way International, but he is still an uneducated window washer, and far from the "nice guy" he used to be. He has become a very dangerous man.
In college several years ago in my psychology study group, we were studying aberrant and deviant behavior, and a student there described an incident he had with his boss at Orkin as an example of a sociopathic disorder-- antisocial personality disorder. This man had made an indelible impression upon this student, who rightly pinned down the disorder.
When describing the incident, he called his boss by his last name, which sounded distrubingly familiar. After the session, I asked him his Boss' first name, and got more information regarding his identity.
No $**t, it was THE M*rk W*ll*ce of Way International fame, who held a managerial position with Orkin here in the Cleveland area just prior to taking on the Region job.
Wow, that leads to the question, where they sociopathic BEFORE association with twi and simply found fertile ground to indulge in their abberant behaviors....OR....did association with twi develope these characteristics in otherwise healthy people?
In other words, were we nuts to become involved with twi to begin with... did twi drive us nuts after we became involved?
That's the scary part of it- they are about all that's left in any kind of leadership positions.
"No $**t, it was THE M*rk W*ll*ce of Way International fame, who held a managerial position with Orkin here in the Cleveland area just prior to taking on the Region job."
I have DREAMED of the day the former limb guy here walks up to "witness" to me in a public setting, heh heh.
But I never received any of these famed letters of threat. Probably was far enough outside of the inner circle that they thought it might get them in trouble.
"I have DREAMED of the day the former limb guy here walks up to "witness" to me in a public setting, heh heh."
Wouldn't that be fun :-)
"But I never received any of these famed letters of threat. Probably was far enough outside of the inner circle that they thought it might get them in trouble."
Same here, we were overseas when it happened. When we returned stateside in 1990 [that time] we did briefly coordinate a twig with two WC couples who had both received letters demanding their loyalty oaths.
One WC couple had not signed, and was suspended for not signing.
The second WC couple had signed, but was suspended because the woman had married a non-WC sailor. [she insisted that at the time they had dated and married she did not know he was a sailor. After 2 years of marriage, he was transfered to Groton. She made a big deal that, she did not realize that he was in the military and she did not understand why he was being transfered when TWI had not given the orders.] Because it was a 'mixed' marriage and he was not about to desert from the Navy or 'refuse' his military orders to Groton, they were 'suspended' from active status.
Both couples were assigned to attend my Twig, as there was no other Twigs at this end of the state, apparantly I was the only fellowship option that the LC had.
I would attend the Twig Coord. meetings like once a month [though I think they had the meetings weekly for the TCs who lived local to the Limb and could better suck-up to him]. While all four of those WC guys were supposed to go to WC nights every week. They hated traveling to Limb. And they openly disliked how poorly they were being treated. Having to attend a fellowship ran by a non-WC, just burned them up [rightly ticked them off, heh heh].
They did call Limb a lot of fink on me, for whatever they thought I was doing wrong. It was always some junk that never had anything to do with the beleivers in the fellowship, so Bonnie and I were able to continue ministering to the beleivers, so it was not too bad. This lasted until 1993 when I was thrown out again, for performing weddings.
I can give a good example of someone who was kind and wonderful that the Way turned ugly ... Mi**ael F*rt -- you could not have asked for a person to be kinder and more understanding than he was to me my interim year at HQ (1984) ... then by 1995 when a good friend of mine (who was ordained by the Way) left/was thrown out, MF sent him a letter that said if he (my friend) had lived during Old Testament times that he would have been stoned to death .. .that he would die within two years, etc.
Needless to say, my friend is still thriving and doing well spiritually, physically, and emotionally ... ten years later. I only hope MDF can say the same.
If anyone still has these letters, they would be an excellent addition to any case being brought against The Way International in order to show their strong-arm manipulation and threats.
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satori001
Sounds like Craig. The God of Martindale is vindictive, petty and just plain rotten, kind of like Craig himself. Coincidence?
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mick
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justloafing
No Bluesunday i do not remember that letter since I came in twi and the corps after you. I scoff at the first. That was their worst trick. As for the second. I can see it happening very easy. A guilt trip is all it was. Something we teach our 5 and 6 year olds to stay away from. We put our whole mind, body and soul into them. They just ripped us apart where and when they could. They never saw why we did not want to do something, They saw what they wanted us to do (Thus saith the Lord) and if we did not then they wished those thing on us. They should have according to there own lying standards "built you up".
I would love to hear how you over came what was told to you and sounds like spread all over twi.
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Raf
Can we, uhh, um,...
Can we shoot for a PG rating in here? Children do read.
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WeWereScammed
Yeah, for a moment there I thought Rev. LCM had posted.
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rascal
I got that very same letter....
Mine also said that if I let anything interfere with the fulfillment of my commitment, the vow I had made top God then it just proved that my heart had never REALLY been *corpes* to begin with....very scornfull.
It was scathing and ugly. I was quite taken aback that this man who had never met me could judge me so harshly.
I was following the recomendations of my leadership at the time.
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Catcup
Threats are nothing new for The Way International, for Craig Martindale, or even for their current leadership-- kinder and gentler though they claim to be.
M*rk W*ll*ce, who with his wife J*seph*ne are still higher level leadership with The Way International, made threats against people in my fellowship and against me and my family.
When a recently-widowed man in our fellowship allowed his daughter to be cared for by his adamantly anti-Way mother in law, W*ll*ce became irate.
When the man's dog died, W*ll*ce took the opportunity to insinuate that it was because the man was outside God's will in allowing his mother in law access to his daughter.
Giving the man an ultimatum to prohibit the mother in law's access to her own grandchild, W*ll*ce's response to him when he rejected it was,
"Who next in your family do you want to die?"
W*ll*ce tried various means to break up our marriage and interfere in our family's medical decisions. He eventually removed our fellowship from us, and gave the following ultimatum at the top of his lungs, loud enough for our 9 year old daughter to hear:
"If you don't get a passion for the truth, you (my husband) will die a lonely old man, you (myself) will be hobbled for life, and your daughter (just feet away from him) will be a stark raving lunatic!"
Threats of tragic maiming, illness, and threats of death are nothing new to The Way International. Threats are done as a matter of course in dealing with people who refuse to submit to their control.
The BOT rewarded W*ll*ce with a Region position. The Way International endorses his way of dealing with people. Death threats are JUST FINE with The Way International if you get on their bad side.
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waterbuffalo
Unfortunately, this seems to describe what Mark has become. When I knew him, he was just an unprofessional, uneducated window washer, BUT, BUT, BUT, a nice guy.
Sounds like he's pronouncing Christian curses on people now. There's a really good book on how to rid yourself of the influence by Dennis Cramer. It's my next "read."
So sad.
Blue, send me a pt if you want to borrow it.
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dmiller
My, my, my --- tales from the past, and all the way from 1977 even. Any of you innies listening to this?? I was *in* back then, and thought them to be the *good old days*. Guess they weren't so good after all (for some folks).
-->
Shoot -- I wish my memory was better, cause if it was -- I'd remember who it was that said:
THE MORE THINGS CHANGE, THE MORE THEY REMAIN THE SAME.
Surely describes twi to a *T*.
David
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dmiller
Hmppph -- and this from a *ministry* that used to purport and teach "I am come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly".
Somewhere on the *road of life*, they took a wrong turn. With threats like this -- they seem to be on the fast-track to the *smoking section* of eternity.
David
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dmiller
Geez Rascal -- guess that the "mog" had *heavy revvy*, while your local leadership did not.
Or maybe it was the other way around -- eh??
This is starting to sound like a "form letter" (that probably had a rubber-stamp signature on the bottom of it), sent out to all who thought better of committing themselves to slavery twi style.
David
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Nottawayfer
I knew him when he was a BC. Back then, he was nice, worked his arse off for the ministry, and supported lcm to the hilt. Right after that, Mark was ordained. And after that he got higher and higher up the ladder of twit leadership. Don't forget he was (is???) martinfail's best friend at the time trouble started in twitville paradise. I'm sure a nice guy got very clouded by the negative and judgmental attitude of the jerk he put on a pedestal.
I know his family wasn't perfect either. Where does he get off telling people such horrible things.....geez.
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rascal
Yup Dave, The funny part was that I didn`t enter residence because I had decided to get married, with my leaderships blessings and encouragement....
Three short months later I get ANOTHER letter from the all knowing LCM welcoming me to the corpes household (I married a corpes man) ....that I was now part of the spiritual elite...i was so special yadda yadda....
I went from spiritual scum with no commitment or heart to wonder believer in 3 short months.....
It really suprised me that LCM would treat condemn someone with such contempt and venom ....completely dismiss them as believers without having any facts.
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rascal
The most venomous letter I ever recieved though was when my husband didn`t write the apropriate response to the loyalty oath letter.
In the letter we recieved demanding a written oath of support and loyalty to lcm and the ministry, which Belligerantly demanded to know who we stood with....one line stood out glaringly....He said....*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*
That was the final straw of course as Mark said sadly, that *we would ALWAYS stand with God*
When Mark didn`t respond....the next letter we recieved was venomous.
It said that we were *salt that had lost it`s savor* (worthless) .... *fit only to be cast out into the street to be trod under the feet of the beasts*
This to two people who had supported and participated in the ministry whole heartedly for 10 and 15 years respectively.
We were now deamed worthless....
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Catcup
M*rk W*ll*ce may be a Region Coordinator for The Way International, but he is still an uneducated window washer, and far from the "nice guy" he used to be. He has become a very dangerous man.
In college several years ago in my psychology study group, we were studying aberrant and deviant behavior, and a student there described an incident he had with his boss at Orkin as an example of a sociopathic disorder-- antisocial personality disorder. This man had made an indelible impression upon this student, who rightly pinned down the disorder.
When describing the incident, he called his boss by his last name, which sounded distrubingly familiar. After the session, I asked him his Boss' first name, and got more information regarding his identity.
No $**t, it was THE M*rk W*ll*ce of Way International fame, who held a managerial position with Orkin here in the Cleveland area just prior to taking on the Region job.
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rascal
Wow, that leads to the question, where they sociopathic BEFORE association with twi and simply found fertile ground to indulge in their abberant behaviors....OR....did association with twi develope these characteristics in otherwise healthy people?
In other words, were we nuts to become involved with twi to begin with... did twi drive us nuts after we became involved?
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Catcup
I believe you could find evidence in a variety of situations for either case.
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WordWolf
I think that everyone who was nuts in twi either was nuts before they
arrived,
or had all the ingredients for going nuts before arriving, and twi just
helped them put it together.
(I don't mean neurological psychiatric disorders, I mean the unstable
personalities twi's become notorious for around here.)
Some people DID go thru Corps and so on and remain sane, some even were
good Christians-at least in the lower Corps numbers, at any rate.
Of course, as more of those guys filled the staff, that changed....
======
Nuts will show up anywhere and everywhere.
Whether they CLUSTER someplace of not is a measure of the structures in
place and the policies enacted.
Since twi was designed to remove accountability whenever possible,
and leadership below mimicked the dysfunctional behaviour of higherups,
who mimicked the mog,
that meant dysfunctional behaviour as Standard Operating Procedure,
with no accountability and no means of recourse except to appeal up the
ladder.
Sometimes that worked-but often it didn't because you appealed to someone
who had the same problems.
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Ham
That's the scary part of it- they are about all that's left in any kind of leadership positions.
"No $**t, it was THE M*rk W*ll*ce of Way International fame, who held a managerial position with Orkin here in the Cleveland area just prior to taking on the Region job."
Small world, Catcup- heh heh.
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Ham
I have DREAMED of the day the former limb guy here walks up to "witness" to me in a public setting, heh heh.
But I never received any of these famed letters of threat. Probably was far enough outside of the inner circle that they thought it might get them in trouble.
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Galen
Hammeroni:
"I have DREAMED of the day the former limb guy here walks up to "witness" to me in a public setting, heh heh."
Wouldn't that be fun :-)
"But I never received any of these famed letters of threat. Probably was far enough outside of the inner circle that they thought it might get them in trouble."
Same here, we were overseas when it happened. When we returned stateside in 1990 [that time] we did briefly coordinate a twig with two WC couples who had both received letters demanding their loyalty oaths.
One WC couple had not signed, and was suspended for not signing.
The second WC couple had signed, but was suspended because the woman had married a non-WC sailor. [she insisted that at the time they had dated and married she did not know he was a sailor. After 2 years of marriage, he was transfered to Groton. She made a big deal that, she did not realize that he was in the military and she did not understand why he was being transfered when TWI had not given the orders.] Because it was a 'mixed' marriage and he was not about to desert from the Navy or 'refuse' his military orders to Groton, they were 'suspended' from active status.
Both couples were assigned to attend my Twig, as there was no other Twigs at this end of the state, apparantly I was the only fellowship option that the LC had.
I would attend the Twig Coord. meetings like once a month [though I think they had the meetings weekly for the TCs who lived local to the Limb and could better suck-up to him]. While all four of those WC guys were supposed to go to WC nights every week. They hated traveling to Limb. And they openly disliked how poorly they were being treated. Having to attend a fellowship ran by a non-WC, just burned them up [rightly ticked them off, heh heh].
They did call Limb a lot of fink on me, for whatever they thought I was doing wrong. It was always some junk that never had anything to do with the beleivers in the fellowship, so Bonnie and I were able to continue ministering to the beleivers, so it was not too bad. This lasted until 1993 when I was thrown out again, for performing weddings.
:-)
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
A poignant blanket summary of TWI'S PFAL TO WOW Program, Way Corps Program, REVEREND PROGRAM and other programs for those institutionalized by TWI!
Rok On WW
LMAO!!!
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ToadFriend
I can give a good example of someone who was kind and wonderful that the Way turned ugly ... Mi**ael F*rt -- you could not have asked for a person to be kinder and more understanding than he was to me my interim year at HQ (1984) ... then by 1995 when a good friend of mine (who was ordained by the Way) left/was thrown out, MF sent him a letter that said if he (my friend) had lived during Old Testament times that he would have been stoned to death .. .that he would die within two years, etc.
Needless to say, my friend is still thriving and doing well spiritually, physically, and emotionally ... ten years later. I only hope MDF can say the same.
TF
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Catcup
If anyone still has these letters, they would be an excellent addition to any case being brought against The Way International in order to show their strong-arm manipulation and threats.
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