ok, up late...some envisioning fun..to help show where i'm trying to come from...regarding the spiritual "peek"
envision this...as a 3 year old would
(in other words..."Behold!")
if we could peel off our skin and meat and bones and yet live, and somehow see "what dreams are made of," each of us might resemble some sort of beautiful fiery ten-headed dragon climbing in trees. another layer peeled, and we might even crackle with gases and light
imagine, each of these heads growing like the stems of of a plant
some upward and inward as branches
some downward in outward as roots
like a pantheon of gods in heaven, each having a head with a certain face or structure of intelligence
represented in life in anything from the signs of the Zodiac to Jim Henson's Sesame Street muppets
things like...
our memory
our hungers
our sexuallity
our self-sense
our playfulness
our moral sense
our rationallity
our interactive intelligence
our cognitive forecasting
our ability to endure suffering
and all our various controllers and dials and knobs and clutch-plates (like skepticism)
etc...(very off the cuff, so i missed some)
each of these lines grows through the same basic stage-like growth
from body to soul to spirit
from gross to subtle to causal
from pre-conventional to conventional to post-conventional
(the "post-stage" having transcended but included both previous stages)
in a sense, we can say that each lines of intelligence will eventually have to die and be reborn once
in layer upon layer of "sheathes" or "petals"
and...different heads/faces of intelligence may take the lead for periods of our life
or struggle against each other
but all develop together, alongside each other, as a singular unit
we can favor one over all the others
where it can get ornery and choke the life out of the others
but we do not want to simply chop off the head out
(cuz they will all grow back)
we want to integrate it by somehow combing out the knot, if we can
restore a sense of wholeness to that which is already complete
and we can do this by "trimming the wick in the temple"
which means we have to somehow "blow out the candle" for a sec
then relight it
this is where The Spirit comes in
and it is the ground in which this very very complex soul/body unit grows in
every moment we spend in this ground
the growth of all our lines are quickened
(which might not seem like such a good idea if a "crooked" line becomes a menace to self and society)
and like soil, the quality of these moments "in the ground" is also a very vital factor
but regardless, to sit in this ground is to somehow fertilize and stimulate "the bush"
and the human mind is always intuitively coming up with all sorts of ways to enter this ground
counting rosary beads, dancing round a fire, mandalas, counting breaths, repetitious prayer, speaking in tongues...
humping at rave parties, pign out on McDonalds, gettn lost in a bottle...
ok, so VP fasted and prayed til he was blue in the face and entered subtler realms, and so had a few visionary expansions in his own pre-existing biblical-minded head
by doing so, he quickened the growth of his lines (especially those dominant "dragon heads") for those few years he was actually being genuinely somehow backwoodsy "pagan" country bumpkin monastic spiritual
this left an impression on him, in his strongly racist language, of course, and so he saw his generic little peak as "Gawd gave him a special gift cuz he was a special man like Paul and Martin Luther was gonna save the world"
not to mention how he and his buddies (and some of us) did this "speaking in tongues" thing til we all ran our mind out of thoughts...
sure, we were trying to visualize our wish list to daddy and loved ones and such...but more than that, we were learning how to stop the thinker...which, if done, is what gives us a "peek" at Spirit. a taste of it. a feel, if you will
like giving the monkey-mind a banana to shut him up for a sec
Sirguess, I love your thoughts, but, sometimes I think you're giving too much creedence here to VP. I agree, anyone with fasting, a desire to know, etc. can have a "spiritual" experience. The question is, which god did they touch - there are many.
When I look at the little I know of his life, from childhood bully, troublemaker, rebel, etc., I do wonder why he decided to become a pastor. Maybe he couldn't tolerate a job where he had to answer to anyone? Sure, a Board every few months, but not daily.
He did seem to admire other men's ministries, which later turned to jealousy, he made up his own spiritual visions (gas pump, snow in July, snow in Tulsa), in a desperate desire to give himself credibility.
The people around him were treated more as things (what man leaves his 6 month old for a year to go traipsing off to India - most men would have left the wife to stay behind and care for him), while the things he had were treated lovingly.
I do believe he was simply a wolf, he negated Christ's divinity, made Christ more of a special "man", VP took Christ's place for us, and substituted himself and knowledge of the Word instead of a relationship with Christ. His teachings back then and today are considered "unorthodox." Most of us are now spending our lives learning things bibilically or spiritually that should have been basic. We are searching and seeking.
I don't believe he had any spirituality or any relationship with God. I have grown over the years to believe he is more like those mentioned in Jude, or someone seeking whom he many devour. His methods are very similar to the Children of God leader, David Berg - though not as overt. Interesting to see though how false prophets think so much the same and say the same things.
Leaving the baby behind has ALWAYS bothered me...that simply is not normal.....his first priority should have been his wife and children....you cannot ignore them in favor of a mission from God...
Also the thing that impressed vp about the guy that led him to tongues enough to trust was the guys inexcusable rudeness to his poor wife...again, a lack of respect for a sister in christ....
I remember his son DW saying that his Dad was way too busy with the things of God to really have any kind of daily interaction....he said that as a boy, he had wished that it could have been someone ELSES Dad to teach.....said about the only really one on one time with his Dad growing up was a once a year hunting trip.
When his wife objected to his affairs, he reputedly told her that she could either *like it or leave*
His wife reputedly said the day of his funeral that he was a mean mean man....
These are not the shining endorsements of a man who understood the love of God....
*i mentioned how those early years of many sleepless nights and grape-fasting was probably responsible his most prominant spiritual peak/peek,
and then how most everything after that was somehow less-than or way-less-than that peak. this initial point seems to have been largely missed so far
Ok, let me re-state - to come at this a bit differently. The peak/peek of which you speak is one of sublimation, IMHO. Not in the strict terms of Freud (of course, his is purely a sexual substitution concept), but I can see evidence that VP “saw†and then “switched†his attention. From vision (Mountain Top dancing angels) to vision (Word over the world – how to do THAT???).
Sure, grape fasting and sleep depravation can create a "peek" at a "peak". The resulting mountain top experience... becomes an unmovable fact in the experience/life of the individual who relishes the most majestic "things" in the physical world... mountains.
REPRODUCING that experience (getting a peek at the peak) was one of the requirements of a successful Way Family Camp (A Mountain Top Experience).
Mal and Jan George were Way Family Camp people. Way Family Camps were critical to the early growth and passing the heart of the ministry to others. (I took PFAL for the 3rd time in a film class, where VP showed up at the end of this camp and did session 12 duties. It was powerful, at that time.)
Way Family Camps were designed to give everybody a peek at the peak. They were more effective in creating an unforgettable experience than the lesser effective - sitting through PFAL classes.
Getting a re-producible experience was very important to VPW. It had to be franchise-able, so as to speak. Family camps running film classes were an effective, if not to say, the most effective tool for world conquest via PFAL, that he had tried to date.
He needed a way to make sure that everyone could get a peek at the same peak. VP let people look at a few impressive sights, using his viewing tool (PFAL) like a telescope – and BAM ! - they ALL saw the SAME thing – VOILLA@!. No private interpretation!! Enter, the real McCoy.
Honestly, the PFAL Way family Camps were like taking a group of people to the Yerkes Observatory, getting a heavenly body into view, but then locking down the telescope so as to ASSURE that others see EXACTLY the same thing… PFAL locked down the telescope, so as to speak.
I would surmise that VPW most likely did not get anywhere near as big a peek as he did “that one time†in the early years as you suggest, SIR_G. It is my perception that instead of continuing his search to see more, better, differently, etc., he became caught up in HOW to get this “Discovery of the Peak†reproduced and franchised all over the world. The reproducibility (sometimes called integrity) of the experience became of great importance.
That which is by virtue - un-reproducible, is fundamentally killed or destroyed during the process of reproduction.
The vibrant, living, word of God that he got a peek at – died in his hands during the process of reproduction. That is a form of sublimation, as well.
Man, this thread is so deep it makes me wanna use words like "wax."
Know what I mean? Its like, when you look at someone's wedding photos, you "look back" at an event. You get out your old high school yearbook and "remenisce" about old times. This stuff we're talking about makes me want to "wax" nostalgic and "ponder" stuff about what was the haps back then. Catch my drift? I dunno, maybe I'm just bein my crazy, right-brained self.
First. Sunesis. I'd never refer to you as "throw away." I do get your point though.
Excie. You have a very unique experiential perspective to most of the rest of ours on this topic. I knew you back in the day at HQ. Always wanted to get to know you better - - it just never happened for some reason. You perspective gives great insight. Thanks honey.
Song. Piecing together all these perspectives, the "simpleton explanation" theory on VP just can't be swept from the table, can it? From my singular perspective, that is, my body of experiences w/VPW... I mean, he was like an adopted Grandfather to me. I was a trusted friend of "the family." He even personally paid the last couple hundred bucks of my Way Corps tuition. That was THE single factor that enabled me to graduate from the corps. I saw that at the time as a big endorsement. I kept it to myself, basically because I felt it could easily become an elephant around my neck.
I can't reasonably say, "I knew him pretty well" and he just wasn't what I call, "The Brain" as in 'Pinky & the The Brain' (the cartoon).
I have the same questions.... Especially now that I'm a father, I could NEVER have forced my wife (Mrs. VPW told me of how she REALLY didn't want to...) sell all her stuff from our (HER) household to go on a trip to India. I wanted my wife to be breast-feeding our (HER) babies still at six months - - for the future health and well being OF THE CHILD.
Mrs. told me/us on more than one occasion when we were heving twig in their basement that she & Vp fought about the India trip - as in argued loudly. I'm sure Donnie heard and participated in some of the arguments. To quote Donnie, "I hated Dad for what he put Mom through concerning that India trip...." My understanding of Donnies position was that he didn't feel God would have his dad do that to his Mom.
Mrs. also told us of how people came forward to "buy" some of their/her most prized stuff surreptitiously under the guise of paying for it but in fact they donated to the trip, took the stuff for safe keeping while they were gone and showed up at the house after they got back & gave the stuff back.
Now, as a veteran of two bitter divorces, I look back on the events prior and the story if the fabled India trip from a different perspective than I has as a 21 year old.
WeWUZscammed.... "Hmmm.... I can get away with this." ... is the voice of temptation. The little red devil that appears over your left shoulder whispers that into the ear of EVERY pastor and leader of God's flock - - "all the time."
Since were being so honest. I was tempted with the PRECISE same thing - - on more than one occasion, many times over. Perhaps the most shocking thing to me concerning spiritual leadership is the frequency and regularity of how many women feel it is "only natural" to repay a man who has blesed them "spiritually" by giving of themselves, physically. The reason I singled out women in this phenomena is because the basic anatural state of any adolescent male is that when it comes to any woman he feels is the LEAST bit attractive, he would just as soon f#@& her as talk to her .... for ANY (or NO) reason at all.
He'd probably do ones he felt was ugly, if he had the time.... Guys are gross like that. We all have had to fight that off - - some more successfully than others. (What do YOU think they're thinking about when they "talk to your boobs?)
SO. I KNOW he was confronted with that; the feeling that "I WON'T get away with it" is, in my opinion, the ONLY true deterrent to any crime of any kind.
God's grace WAS sufficient. Not to toot my own horn, but I had one of the "hottest chick's imaginable" in my car alone, in the dark, on a deserted road, late at night, with her shirt off, headlights on high beam, ready to roll. (I was in a more appropriate age category with her.)
I told her whoa, wait a minute. I'm a man of God, I CAN'T do this with you. God KNOWS I wanted to. I am a red -blooded American male, you know? I was alone. The only thing stopping me was my personal integrity. She WANTED me. NO ONE would have found out if I had any more than no one found out that I didn't.
There was something different in VPW.
I went on to attempt to actually help her. I tried to find out why she was so willing to "hook up with me."
VPW had that same opportunity to REALLY help people. he "helped himself" to da booty. I'm not trying to demean or devaluize any victim. Reality demand that he couldn't have seen any victim as anything other than "booty."
If he actually believed he was like "sexual healing" people, he DID scam himself.
Song. Piecing together all these perspectives, the "simpleton explanation" theory on VP just can't be swept from the table, can it? From my singular perspective, that is, my body of experiences w/VPW... I mean, he was like an adopted Grandfather to me. I was a trusted friend of "the family." He even personally paid the last couple hundred bucks of my Way Corps tuition. That was THE single factor that enabled me to graduate from the corps. I saw that at the time as a big endorsement. I kept it to myself, basically because I felt it could easily become an elephant around my neck.
HCW~~~ I suppose I understand from a distance my singular perspective as to yours. VPW was no
Too Gray Now - yes, you nailed it. One of the best explanations I have read. PFAL had to take us to the mountaintop also, to keep TWI growing. It did. I also remember mountaintop checkbooks, and other, as VP would call them "mountaintop" experiences. The problem was PFAL was purposely designed to take us to the mountaintop, the one he viewed, and it seems, the rest of our time in TWI was spent trying to get back up there. But we never really could.
HCW, great post as usual. I should rephrase, quite a few of the hippies attracted to TWI were down and outers and throw away kids. Also, the "Jesus Movement" of the late '60s-early '70s also attracted middle and upper middleclass kids - definitely not throwaways, but it gave them an "in" so to speak, or an entrance into the "hippie counterculture" they had seen from afar and would have loved to participate in. You had a mixture of the two group.
Hcw, I gotta ask you, honestly...as screwed up and mean as Chris G was....as much as he completely bought into EVERY bit of vp`s doctrine....as dark as the sins of his soul are....do you really think that what he presented to the bot`s could have been spiritually healthy?
Duh. I dunno. The short answer is yes. If CG had not dropped that POP bomb I think things would have been worse than they actually turned out to be.
It was "healthy" in that same sense that a good butt whoopin' can be healthy for your kid. It was kinda wierd to me that I had "just decided" to go to Corps Night that night when I had stopped going regularly to CN's years ago. I was gald to be able to see & hear it for myself. Seeing and hearing the BOT respond to it, tears & all was really something.
My thinking about it at the time was almost like the end justifies the means. I really didn't see any other way to do it. It was shocking, to say the least but only some of the details were surprising. In his opening remarks CG mentioned how he had taken the Biblically prescribed route to confront the trustees in what VP had described to him to be the potential last will & testament of TWI.
I mean like, if we're all focused on turning the ship around back in the direction towards God... then POP was a good thing. Right?
It was good in the sense that it vindicated those of us who POP referred to as "malcontents at HQ." During the 80's prior to POP HQ had become a "spiritual mess." What was once a close knit family had become a very cold and divided place. If I have my numbers correct, there were about 150 people on staff in 1979 when I came to work there and over 500 when I came back during my last year in residence in 82 and around 800 by 1985. After VP died in 86 things accellerated in the bad direction. Depending on which side of the fence you were on... people were defecting from stafe like - - "I can't take this any more."
Others were like "Goodbye and good riddance, you were in the way of progress."
How healthy was it? It basically put the brakes on "everything" that was going on at HQ. Everything turned towards "turning HQ around."
There were a few "camps;" basically, the oldtimers vs. new, corporate types. The old ways was Vp's position that he would rather have a person who was willing to work with a good heart for God do a job than the most highly trained professional. The goal was to have "God-inspired professionals" in every position @ HQ. They began hiring people right out of PFAL and filling positions or taking new Corps grads who said they had "done it" or had a degree, or some work experience doing certain functions and plugging them in. In a lot of way the newby's didn't know their butt from a hole in the ground about HQ.
Lots of the new hires felt there was something "spiritually superior" about them (why else would God have called them to HQ?) and "everybody had a psalm or a doctrine" about how things should be done.
There was lots of arguing. Less & less work got done. Whereas we were once statistically more productive than similar corporations doing similar things, we became very unproductive. We used to win corporate awards, like we turned TWI's print dept fron a basic one color duplication shop to a fully functioning 4+ color printing facility on less than one year. The next year we won an award for being one of the top 100 in-house printing facilites in the US.
TWI's computer folks developed one of the first computerized Bible in the world it was called "Wordworker - The Computerized New testament"
Our motorcoaches won awards for having some of the best interior designs in coach technology at the time.
Ambassador one was the first Convair 580 in the world to get the jet assist engine retrofit to become a "Super Convair," an award winning undertaking. The improvements made to NK Airport to accomodate Ambassador One also made it the best rural airport in Ohio and one of the best in the US. NK airport was considered an "international" ariport whn Amb1 flew from there.
Twi (Al Grumelot) people invented a snow crawler people transport vehicle beyond the capabilities of those currently in service. It was called "The Snow Way." The plan was to use it at Camp Gunnison for winter tours up though the mountains, and sell it commercially for use at ski resorts, etc....
People were doing outstanding things in the arts, translations (like we republished William Jennings Syriac New Testament Lexicon, we [they] were working on an Aramaic Interlinear Bible) and all kinda of stuff. Things like developing some work on color-music harmony to be able to design architecture and interior design that could be done in visual "keys" that correspond with music. We had plans on the table for a Way Healing Arts Center that would focus on holistic healing practices and be designed with colors, themes etc. that were spititually "right-on" that would promote physical healing.
VPW was involved w/ and spearheaded all of that stuff and more with his last few years of vitality. Ken McCaw had already won an international competition to write an anthem for the Olympics. We had done two 13 week seasons of "High Country Caravan - Entertainment For All People By Christians." That was well recieved in and Broadcast in TV markets all around the country.
VP had been writing a column in the local News papers called "By The Way" - it was kind of an "out of the horse's mouth" perspective on the Way; editorials by VPW type of thing. They were a sort of apologetic explanatory educational thing about TWI. Each editorial ended with his personal tag line, "You are welcome at The Way."
All of that stuff wound down and stopped right along w/VPW. When he died, the in-fighting escalated.
Athletes of the Spirit was supposedly one of the key ventures in a spiritual/cultural revolution TWI was supposedly involved with. LCM made sure we basicallt turned all of ther esources of TWI towards AOS. It turned out to be crap. (Just in case you wondered how so many talented people could put out such a big load of crap.... Each area was happening simultaneously, LCM was approving (or disapproving everything) independantly of everything else. There was noone with any creative abilities overseeing the whole thing. I remember it was this big tadoo about the first wholescalre rehearsal. Very dissappointing.)
When POP hit it became possible for some of us to say, "I told you so..." About things we'd been arguing about. There was a time when, "I knew VP's way" had some weight. Then people became "Gartmore-ites." Those who had the personal financial wherewithal to go, or whose job took them there went. The came back & begand speaking at night-owls, hoot-owls & stuff, singing the praises of CG and how Gartmore was what HQ once was. People went there on "returning to God" pilgrimiges (sp?). Then it became like, "If you haven't been to Gartmore, you haven't turned back to God."
POP's fall-out turned into, "We've ALL turned from God, not just the trustees." Then. Where it had been that people gave us staffers carte blanc respect. They now looked at us like, "YOU did it, YOU killed VP."
Yaaaa!!!!! I didn't kill anybody!
From one perspective at first I think in general we felt it didn't matter how we got turned around, it was only important that we were turning. I was like....
"There aint no huge process. If you need to repent, REPENT, dammit! God don't live in Gartmore, he lives in ME. Christ IN you remember?" Geez, I haven't thought about this stuff for so long.
My theory on the bottom line of POP is that there was a major power struggle, "everybody" (among the top leadership) wanted to be the next VP. Everybody wanted to have the access he had, invitations to Presidential inaugurations, the airplanes, motorcoaches, everything it seems. People forgot anything about having a personal place in the body of Christ where God had placed them.
Pretty much any hop of TWI died w/ VPW. Not that he was so great, but he was standing in the way of other folks having the power. If it wasn't Chris W/ POP it would have happened later.
Can you imagine what thigngs would have been like if JAL, Ralph, Vince, Etc. Were still arouond with LCM ranting like he did? There would have been a major mutiny anyway.
POP. and it's fall-out saved a lot of folks a LOT of grief.
(sorry it looks so long...i'm aiming for density...lol)
is to attempt to view the TWI experience as not only a part of a larger whole wave of peaks, but having a complex and ongoing multitude of sub-factors and sub-contexts
and, how we experienced it and continue to experience it as an individual, both inwardly and outwardly
and how we experienced it and continue to experience it as a collective, both inwardly and outwardly
because simultaeneously from within these four "dimensions," if you will, we have and do witness many intersections of causality, though we may have come to favor one "dimension" over another, perhaps even at the expense of the others. this is only natural. innocent, if you will
we often reject one "dimension" as not having any causal influence or validity at all (thus, arises arguments such as "culture versus choice being the cause crime"...arguing from seperate cages, in a sense)
both collective and individual truths exist as aspects of one truth, just as inward and outward are a wider spectrum of different "thicknesses" of one body.
in other words, VP (and ilk) played a key role in their own rises and falls,
but we (and ilk) also somehow "made" him and them and us rise and fall together.
just as we do now, and always
TWI reminds me of like how the grunge scene pretty much "made" Kurt Cobain "happen" (not simply the other way around). it spit him out like an offspring of the angst. which is why so many people resonated with his words and passionate expressions. it was a collective expression of self. and "Kurt" was a lick among a wave of "Kurts". this was and is still a mirror of some generational wave of truth, expanding outward throughout sub-cultures of concentric circles, overlapping other circles caused by other splashing things...yada yada yada
no, not like strict orderly arranged circles on a legal pad
but like ripples on ripples on the surface of a pond in the rain
and so perhaps even the silly rain (outer collective) can show us something useful about the fluidity of humanity (inner collective) and how we react to each other (individuals).
and rain, it seems, being always true, cannot tell a lie
;)-->
and Kurt himself was still equally a complex individual in the midst of all this
even though he was also a mirror, just as the crowd was simultaeneously a mirror of him
can we not look in a mirror on still not realize what it is we see?
and all the causes and effects continue to change and evolve in their own historical unfoldings. the effects themselves always changing its meanings and values and complexities over the passage of time.
the story is never quite over
and the general "spirit" of things has a way of turning all things inside out and upside down, imo. eventually.
and its not our believing and wishing and wanting that causes it to do so
(because it is going to "flip" someday regardless, and is already trying to)
what counts more, it seems, is how aware we are of its happening
and no matter how painful the truth of all our mirrors if life may be, and as in all shadows, there is a gift hiding. otherwise, it would not have happened at all.
i have seen and believe that there is such an "order" in God's universe
but not flat. rather...the order is equally exotic and wild and daring and courageous enough to break itself at times
there is a bitter-sweet graciousness in that, imo
if we could only learn how to simply witness "it" in the present moment
we might find that free will we often seek
quote:
sometimes I think you're giving too much creedence here to VP. I agree, anyone with fasting, a desire to know, etc. can have a "spiritual" experience. The question is, which god did they touch - there are many.
not sure what you mean by "giving too much creedence to VP," Sunesis. I have stated that he was "a sorcerer" who hoodwinked himself and others. And that his spiritual peak is something he stumbled over and was kinda like what happens when being hit over the head with a shovel, or being in a car accident. and that it was brief and small and something that happened to many in a wave, and that many others surpassed him in the depth (or height) of their own peaks (such as us here)
i also stated that this crude sloppy spike was perhaps "high" but brief, and served mostly to move him from "a low place" to a "mid place," and that he didnt really understand what happened to him in a greater context. and his pre-existing and ongoing unresolved "issues" were more or less amplified by that "bump"
the dimensions and degrees of difference between VP and some realized saint who lives in the mountains and comes down from time to time to actually heal and help...is quite a wide one.
i am talking miles wide difference
on a scale of 1 to 100, globally and historically, VPs overall life and ministry may have measured something like a 2 or 3 on "the spiritual goodness earthquake scale."
i'm giving most of the credit to the grace of God, perhaps. but not to VP. not from here.
and the concept of there being one "good God" and many "bad gods" is true enough, imo, in a certain sense. VP himself became a "bad god." he was possessed by his cigs and his booze and johnson and his buddies like a small pantheon of "bad gods"
but imoae, The Divine is neutral and exists in a spectrum and is everpresently so, which is why "God is so Good" and benevolant. there is no partiallity in Spirit. it is all inclusive. it is universal and eternally so. ultimately, everything is within This. and so what is not "of God?"
touchy subject...and no offense, but its mostly I and we who unconsciously make devils and demons out of the dark corners of our understanding
and so even for some backwoods schmuck to peek into the I AM by fasting and praying for a spell(which is a neutral act), it is what it is, and was what it was, regardless of what happened before, or what happens next. he is no Ann, Francis, Peter or Paul...he was an envious Simon with some "magic tricks" to bewitch an audience (because his neutral "peeks" showed him some true things about human nature. intentionality is a different matter)
imo, his peak was of only a few of his lines of intelligence, and shows mostly in things like his charts and concepts and models and in what he chose to copy-cat and rip and cut and paste of things he saw
I dunno...I think the fact that Wierwille chose lcm to replace him, speaks volumes. There were so many capable people who would have kept the trains running on time...Martindale was not one of them...and that was painfully obvious...it should have been painfully obvious to Wierwille BEFORE he chose him instead of afterwords...Wierwille got divine guidance?...yeah, and I'm the fifth Beatle.
I think not Song. BTW, I prefer HC to HCW. We're among friends here, right?
I'm not ignoring you, just left the computer to take my boys to our martial arts class.
I'm really not sure if I follow your drift Song. Maybe its because I never really went for that "Father in the Word" stuff.
I always thought it was more than a little bit pretentious & presumptuous for LCM to refer to VP as his Father in the word themn pass that designation on to all of us.
Maybe its because I'm more than a little numb to marketing messages cause I craft them "everyday" in my work.
Maybe its because I've always carried more than a little resentment about Craig's presumptuousness. Like what is it about playing tight end in college that means you should ALWAYS play steady QUARTERBACK in the local pickup game with the guys.
After all when the Apostle Paul was spoken of as "fathering" the believers in the first Century in the gospel of Christ. He actually WAS the leader of the group one of the FIRST to bring the word to the people that GOD, himself ordained as HIS word. I mean like Paul's letters became the fricken Bible, right?
It was just more than presumptuous to align one'self in spiritual significance with Paul.
So. I could never really get with the Father in the word stuff beyound a figure of speech seeing as all VPW "fathered" us in was his OWN words. VPW didn't bring me the Bible. The Gideons did that. ?
All I ever expected of him was that he'd teach some stuff from the Bible that modern churches didn't teach (the word as it hadn't been taught for centuries).
Could it be that I communicated more in that "adopted grandfather" comment than I intended? Terms like teacher, coach, father, mentor are all more intimate to me than Adopted Grandfather. I also intended to communicate that it was he who more adopted me that I adopted him as "grandfather." He did the mentoring more than I requested to be mentored.
So no. I don't think I get what you're saying Song. What ARE you saying?
I dunno...I think the fact that Wierwille chose lcm to replace him, speaks volumes. There were so many capable people...
Amen Groucho. Is it just me or are all of the volumes it speaks not good?
When I got a job in a Fortune 100 company and got to work around REAL corporate executive types... I WISH LCM would be given the reins of a $20 mil business unit or a real corporation revenue size of TWI when he took over.
In his own words, he'd be a greasespot by midnite before the end of the first week. I mean really, a REAL CEO has C.E.O. written all over him. They have REAL, tangible track record before even being considered for the job. Craig had never held a real JOB.
Maybe VP thought Donnie would run the company and Craig would teach?
Pretty much any hop of TWI died w/ VPW. Not that he was so great, but he was standing in the way of other folks having the power. If it wasn't Chris W/ POP it would have happened later.
I tend to think that any "hop" departed from the organization along with all the people
who hopped away...twi ultimately underestimated its greatest asset and resource - its people.
I'm all the more convinced of that when reading of the various accomplishments you cited.
I agree that VPW seemingly functioned as a "restraining" force which kept the other "men of sin" at bay. Then when this "man of sin" was taken from their midst, all hell broke loose (lol).
quote:
POP. and it's fall-out saved a lot of folks a LOT of grief.
i just wanted to tell you how much i appreciate your detailed additions to this..on many levels
(everyone else too, i could quote the whole thread)
just sifting thru your words, HCW...i see so many things that reflect what i've been trying to "get at"
especially as it pertains to the ripples that erupted around the genuine brotherhood/sisterhood aspect of TWI
to add: like one small flock among a new developing way of evangelical bible-study christianity in a new hyper-era of innovation and independence in america (though TWI was one of the odder balls, fer sure. ive seen way odder sub-things in religion...equal to or greater in magnitude than TWI))
with all kinds of new and competing "spiritual brotherhood" aspects going off everywhere
like many small heaps and circles of programmed amd indoctrinated exclusivity..like so many self-repeating but adaptive structures/processes (thus, the offshoots and PFALish principles being taught on catholic tv)
as with business, modern religion entered a new evolutionary phase together...and quite rapidly, in anthropological time
industriality and technology and complexity and integration and wide spectrum cross-training and specialization...all off the charts in the last century
like some new dawn, waking fields of flowers one horizon at a time
and re: TWI's advancing the art of banality...one of those many lines of human intelligence i was talking about
that specialist with a square and plum-line, a valid useful sub-aspect of our being, one that strives to make things "primo" and "dialed-in"
(as my custom log home builder friend always says)
but can be quite ruthless, cold and nasty when in charge and somehow hungry
This thread seems to have a lot of “nots†in it.
Ever notice how many times people will use “NOT†–statements in order to be more persuasive or emphatic? (But in the end, they actually said LESS?)
Here are a few -
I am glad that I do not fellowship with TWI.
VP was a scamming, huckster – who had the “notâ€-type of spirituality - .
LCM said I would be a Grease Spot by Midnight if I left – but I was not.
The new Democratic party which Howard Dean is defining, is one that will NOT put up with it any more...
“Daddy, don’t smoke anymoreâ€.
The love is gone, it is just not there.
These statements share one thing in common – they all make statements about what isn’t – or what wasn’t, or what will no longer be.
I get the sense that this thread does a better job (overall) of answering a different question, “Theories on what VPWs spirituality was not.â€
The way we have answered on this thread suggests to me that it is difficult to for most of us to say we know what his spirituality really “wasâ€.
After reading this thread again, I feel like Steve Martin and Bill Murray on that SNL skit when he stood there and looked quizzically into the camera and repeated for the next 5 min. (using varying inflections) and said…
At the end of the skit, you had no more of an idea what it was than when they started… except to say, that had it been EASY to recognize, they would have recognized it for what it was. Their difficulty in recognizing “it†was part of the universal intrigue.
This thread is part of the universal answer as to why each of was ever involved… we did not know what it was.!!
The fact that SNL could make this topic funny says more about me, than them…
I just don’t know what the HELL it says about VP??!!! :)-->
One thing is for sure, if SirGuess had asked what his spirituality wasn’t – I think we could nail that… :)--> Actually…. I think we just did.
It was "healthy" in that same sense that a good butt whoopin' can be healthy for your kid.
sowwy hc i didn't keep reading
i'll tell you what was healthy for me.... the old snake died.... and it set me free.... somehow i realized i didn't have to buy the moggy bull**** from the younger ones
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
needed a father, not a brother..... i have 5 of those
; )
as to his spirituality....
how do you measure heartache and spirituality, todd ?
isn't spirituality a good thing ?
if so, he didn't get a good grade in my book
of course i'm not god, so he can take it up with whomever
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sirguessalot
ok, up late...some envisioning fun..to help show where i'm trying to come from...regarding the spiritual "peek"
envision this...as a 3 year old would
(in other words..."Behold!")
if we could peel off our skin and meat and bones and yet live, and somehow see "what dreams are made of," each of us might resemble some sort of beautiful fiery ten-headed dragon climbing in trees. another layer peeled, and we might even crackle with gases and light
imagine, each of these heads growing like the stems of of a plant
some upward and inward as branches
some downward in outward as roots
like a pantheon of gods in heaven, each having a head with a certain face or structure of intelligence
represented in life in anything from the signs of the Zodiac to Jim Henson's Sesame Street muppets
things like...
our memory
our hungers
our sexuallity
our self-sense
our playfulness
our moral sense
our rationallity
our interactive intelligence
our cognitive forecasting
our ability to endure suffering
and all our various controllers and dials and knobs and clutch-plates (like skepticism)
etc...(very off the cuff, so i missed some)
each of these lines grows through the same basic stage-like growth
from body to soul to spirit
from gross to subtle to causal
from pre-conventional to conventional to post-conventional
(the "post-stage" having transcended but included both previous stages)
in a sense, we can say that each lines of intelligence will eventually have to die and be reborn once
in layer upon layer of "sheathes" or "petals"
and...different heads/faces of intelligence may take the lead for periods of our life
or struggle against each other
but all develop together, alongside each other, as a singular unit
we can favor one over all the others
where it can get ornery and choke the life out of the others
but we do not want to simply chop off the head out
(cuz they will all grow back)
we want to integrate it by somehow combing out the knot, if we can
restore a sense of wholeness to that which is already complete
and we can do this by "trimming the wick in the temple"
which means we have to somehow "blow out the candle" for a sec
then relight it
this is where The Spirit comes in
and it is the ground in which this very very complex soul/body unit grows in
every moment we spend in this ground
the growth of all our lines are quickened
(which might not seem like such a good idea if a "crooked" line becomes a menace to self and society)
and like soil, the quality of these moments "in the ground" is also a very vital factor
but regardless, to sit in this ground is to somehow fertilize and stimulate "the bush"
and the human mind is always intuitively coming up with all sorts of ways to enter this ground
counting rosary beads, dancing round a fire, mandalas, counting breaths, repetitious prayer, speaking in tongues...
nascar racing, downhill skiing, mountain climbing, bungee jumping...
humping at rave parties, pign out on McDonalds, gettn lost in a bottle...
ok, so VP fasted and prayed til he was blue in the face and entered subtler realms, and so had a few visionary expansions in his own pre-existing biblical-minded head
by doing so, he quickened the growth of his lines (especially those dominant "dragon heads") for those few years he was actually being genuinely somehow backwoodsy "pagan" country bumpkin monastic spiritual
this left an impression on him, in his strongly racist language, of course, and so he saw his generic little peak as "Gawd gave him a special gift cuz he was a special man like Paul and Martin Luther was gonna save the world"
not to mention how he and his buddies (and some of us) did this "speaking in tongues" thing til we all ran our mind out of thoughts...
sure, we were trying to visualize our wish list to daddy and loved ones and such...but more than that, we were learning how to stop the thinker...which, if done, is what gives us a "peek" at Spirit. a taste of it. a feel, if you will
like giving the monkey-mind a banana to shut him up for a sec
or giving the baby a nipple
:P-->
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Sunesis
Sirguess, I love your thoughts, but, sometimes I think you're giving too much creedence here to VP. I agree, anyone with fasting, a desire to know, etc. can have a "spiritual" experience. The question is, which god did they touch - there are many.
When I look at the little I know of his life, from childhood bully, troublemaker, rebel, etc., I do wonder why he decided to become a pastor. Maybe he couldn't tolerate a job where he had to answer to anyone? Sure, a Board every few months, but not daily.
He did seem to admire other men's ministries, which later turned to jealousy, he made up his own spiritual visions (gas pump, snow in July, snow in Tulsa), in a desperate desire to give himself credibility.
The people around him were treated more as things (what man leaves his 6 month old for a year to go traipsing off to India - most men would have left the wife to stay behind and care for him), while the things he had were treated lovingly.
I do believe he was simply a wolf, he negated Christ's divinity, made Christ more of a special "man", VP took Christ's place for us, and substituted himself and knowledge of the Word instead of a relationship with Christ. His teachings back then and today are considered "unorthodox." Most of us are now spending our lives learning things bibilically or spiritually that should have been basic. We are searching and seeking.
I don't believe he had any spirituality or any relationship with God. I have grown over the years to believe he is more like those mentioned in Jude, or someone seeking whom he many devour. His methods are very similar to the Children of God leader, David Berg - though not as overt. Interesting to see though how false prophets think so much the same and say the same things.
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Too Gray Now
Sir Yakkitty Signpost,
;)-->
I want to swing at a couple of your pitches.
Let's see.... hmmm (I hear Jeapordy music playing in the background)...
"I'll take "Original Questions Restated" for $500".
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rascal
Agreed Sunesis....
Leaving the baby behind has ALWAYS bothered me...that simply is not normal.....his first priority should have been his wife and children....you cannot ignore them in favor of a mission from God...
Also the thing that impressed vp about the guy that led him to tongues enough to trust was the guys inexcusable rudeness to his poor wife...again, a lack of respect for a sister in christ....
I remember his son DW saying that his Dad was way too busy with the things of God to really have any kind of daily interaction....he said that as a boy, he had wished that it could have been someone ELSES Dad to teach.....said about the only really one on one time with his Dad growing up was a once a year hunting trip.
When his wife objected to his affairs, he reputedly told her that she could either *like it or leave*
His wife reputedly said the day of his funeral that he was a mean mean man....
These are not the shining endorsements of a man who understood the love of God....
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Too Gray Now
Ok, let me re-state - to come at this a bit differently. The peak/peek of which you speak is one of sublimation, IMHO. Not in the strict terms of Freud (of course, his is purely a sexual substitution concept), but I can see evidence that VP “saw†and then “switched†his attention. From vision (Mountain Top dancing angels) to vision (Word over the world – how to do THAT???).
Sure, grape fasting and sleep depravation can create a "peek" at a "peak". The resulting mountain top experience... becomes an unmovable fact in the experience/life of the individual who relishes the most majestic "things" in the physical world... mountains.
REPRODUCING that experience (getting a peek at the peak) was one of the requirements of a successful Way Family Camp (A Mountain Top Experience).
Mal and Jan George were Way Family Camp people. Way Family Camps were critical to the early growth and passing the heart of the ministry to others. (I took PFAL for the 3rd time in a film class, where VP showed up at the end of this camp and did session 12 duties. It was powerful, at that time.)
Way Family Camps were designed to give everybody a peek at the peak. They were more effective in creating an unforgettable experience than the lesser effective - sitting through PFAL classes.
Getting a re-producible experience was very important to VPW. It had to be franchise-able, so as to speak. Family camps running film classes were an effective, if not to say, the most effective tool for world conquest via PFAL, that he had tried to date.
He needed a way to make sure that everyone could get a peek at the same peak. VP let people look at a few impressive sights, using his viewing tool (PFAL) like a telescope – and BAM ! - they ALL saw the SAME thing – VOILLA@!. No private interpretation!! Enter, the real McCoy.
Honestly, the PFAL Way family Camps were like taking a group of people to the Yerkes Observatory, getting a heavenly body into view, but then locking down the telescope so as to ASSURE that others see EXACTLY the same thing… PFAL locked down the telescope, so as to speak.
I would surmise that VPW most likely did not get anywhere near as big a peek as he did “that one time†in the early years as you suggest, SIR_G. It is my perception that instead of continuing his search to see more, better, differently, etc., he became caught up in HOW to get this “Discovery of the Peak†reproduced and franchised all over the world. The reproducibility (sometimes called integrity) of the experience became of great importance.
That which is by virtue - un-reproducible, is fundamentally killed or destroyed during the process of reproduction.
The vibrant, living, word of God that he got a peek at – died in his hands during the process of reproduction. That is a form of sublimation, as well.
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HCW
Man, this thread is so deep it makes me wanna use words like "wax."
Know what I mean? Its like, when you look at someone's wedding photos, you "look back" at an event. You get out your old high school yearbook and "remenisce" about old times. This stuff we're talking about makes me want to "wax" nostalgic and "ponder" stuff about what was the haps back then. Catch my drift? I dunno, maybe I'm just bein my crazy, right-brained self.
First. Sunesis. I'd never refer to you as "throw away." I do get your point though.
Excie. You have a very unique experiential perspective to most of the rest of ours on this topic. I knew you back in the day at HQ. Always wanted to get to know you better - - it just never happened for some reason. You perspective gives great insight. Thanks honey.
Song. Piecing together all these perspectives, the "simpleton explanation" theory on VP just can't be swept from the table, can it? From my singular perspective, that is, my body of experiences w/VPW... I mean, he was like an adopted Grandfather to me. I was a trusted friend of "the family." He even personally paid the last couple hundred bucks of my Way Corps tuition. That was THE single factor that enabled me to graduate from the corps. I saw that at the time as a big endorsement. I kept it to myself, basically because I felt it could easily become an elephant around my neck.
I can't reasonably say, "I knew him pretty well" and he just wasn't what I call, "The Brain" as in 'Pinky & the The Brain' (the cartoon).
I have the same questions.... Especially now that I'm a father, I could NEVER have forced my wife (Mrs. VPW told me of how she REALLY didn't want to...) sell all her stuff from our (HER) household to go on a trip to India. I wanted my wife to be breast-feeding our (HER) babies still at six months - - for the future health and well being OF THE CHILD.
Mrs. told me/us on more than one occasion when we were heving twig in their basement that she & Vp fought about the India trip - as in argued loudly. I'm sure Donnie heard and participated in some of the arguments. To quote Donnie, "I hated Dad for what he put Mom through concerning that India trip...." My understanding of Donnies position was that he didn't feel God would have his dad do that to his Mom.
Mrs. also told us of how people came forward to "buy" some of their/her most prized stuff surreptitiously under the guise of paying for it but in fact they donated to the trip, took the stuff for safe keeping while they were gone and showed up at the house after they got back & gave the stuff back.
Now, as a veteran of two bitter divorces, I look back on the events prior and the story if the fabled India trip from a different perspective than I has as a 21 year old.
WeWUZscammed.... "Hmmm.... I can get away with this." ... is the voice of temptation. The little red devil that appears over your left shoulder whispers that into the ear of EVERY pastor and leader of God's flock - - "all the time."
Since were being so honest. I was tempted with the PRECISE same thing - - on more than one occasion, many times over. Perhaps the most shocking thing to me concerning spiritual leadership is the frequency and regularity of how many women feel it is "only natural" to repay a man who has blesed them "spiritually" by giving of themselves, physically. The reason I singled out women in this phenomena is because the basic anatural state of any adolescent male is that when it comes to any woman he feels is the LEAST bit attractive, he would just as soon f#@& her as talk to her .... for ANY (or NO) reason at all.
He'd probably do ones he felt was ugly, if he had the time.... Guys are gross like that. We all have had to fight that off - - some more successfully than others. (What do YOU think they're thinking about when they "talk to your boobs?)
SO. I KNOW he was confronted with that; the feeling that "I WON'T get away with it" is, in my opinion, the ONLY true deterrent to any crime of any kind.
God's grace WAS sufficient. Not to toot my own horn, but I had one of the "hottest chick's imaginable" in my car alone, in the dark, on a deserted road, late at night, with her shirt off, headlights on high beam, ready to roll. (I was in a more appropriate age category with her.)
I told her whoa, wait a minute. I'm a man of God, I CAN'T do this with you. God KNOWS I wanted to. I am a red -blooded American male, you know? I was alone. The only thing stopping me was my personal integrity. She WANTED me. NO ONE would have found out if I had any more than no one found out that I didn't.
There was something different in VPW.
I went on to attempt to actually help her. I tried to find out why she was so willing to "hook up with me."
VPW had that same opportunity to REALLY help people. he "helped himself" to da booty. I'm not trying to demean or devaluize any victim. Reality demand that he couldn't have seen any victim as anything other than "booty."
If he actually believed he was like "sexual healing" people, he DID scam himself.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Whoops & forgive me but seems that Sir G's photo
& Too Gray's photo
seem to have a lot in common now
just an observation!!!
s h i t ~~~ read too many Sherlock Doyle books~~~
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
HCW~~~ I suppose I understand from a distance my singular perspective as to yours. VPW was no
, he wasMy Father In The Word
PERIOD!!!
Do you understand that HCW?
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Sunesis
Too Gray Now - yes, you nailed it. One of the best explanations I have read. PFAL had to take us to the mountaintop also, to keep TWI growing. It did. I also remember mountaintop checkbooks, and other, as VP would call them "mountaintop" experiences. The problem was PFAL was purposely designed to take us to the mountaintop, the one he viewed, and it seems, the rest of our time in TWI was spent trying to get back up there. But we never really could.
HCW, great post as usual. I should rephrase, quite a few of the hippies attracted to TWI were down and outers and throw away kids. Also, the "Jesus Movement" of the late '60s-early '70s also attracted middle and upper middleclass kids - definitely not throwaways, but it gave them an "in" so to speak, or an entrance into the "hippie counterculture" they had seen from afar and would have loved to participate in. You had a mixture of the two group.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
HCW~~~
seems a multitude of delusion eh~~~
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Hmmm
Sir G has the look of John Denver
Too Gray Now was once Steve Martin and now appears as a buff Sting
just an observation~~~
i'm just a
Song
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HCW
Duh. I dunno. The short answer is yes. If CG had not dropped that POP bomb I think things would have been worse than they actually turned out to be.
It was "healthy" in that same sense that a good butt whoopin' can be healthy for your kid. It was kinda wierd to me that I had "just decided" to go to Corps Night that night when I had stopped going regularly to CN's years ago. I was gald to be able to see & hear it for myself. Seeing and hearing the BOT respond to it, tears & all was really something.
My thinking about it at the time was almost like the end justifies the means. I really didn't see any other way to do it. It was shocking, to say the least but only some of the details were surprising. In his opening remarks CG mentioned how he had taken the Biblically prescribed route to confront the trustees in what VP had described to him to be the potential last will & testament of TWI.
I mean like, if we're all focused on turning the ship around back in the direction towards God... then POP was a good thing. Right?
It was good in the sense that it vindicated those of us who POP referred to as "malcontents at HQ." During the 80's prior to POP HQ had become a "spiritual mess." What was once a close knit family had become a very cold and divided place. If I have my numbers correct, there were about 150 people on staff in 1979 when I came to work there and over 500 when I came back during my last year in residence in 82 and around 800 by 1985. After VP died in 86 things accellerated in the bad direction. Depending on which side of the fence you were on... people were defecting from stafe like - - "I can't take this any more."
Others were like "Goodbye and good riddance, you were in the way of progress."
How healthy was it? It basically put the brakes on "everything" that was going on at HQ. Everything turned towards "turning HQ around."
There were a few "camps;" basically, the oldtimers vs. new, corporate types. The old ways was Vp's position that he would rather have a person who was willing to work with a good heart for God do a job than the most highly trained professional. The goal was to have "God-inspired professionals" in every position @ HQ. They began hiring people right out of PFAL and filling positions or taking new Corps grads who said they had "done it" or had a degree, or some work experience doing certain functions and plugging them in. In a lot of way the newby's didn't know their butt from a hole in the ground about HQ.
Lots of the new hires felt there was something "spiritually superior" about them (why else would God have called them to HQ?) and "everybody had a psalm or a doctrine" about how things should be done.
There was lots of arguing. Less & less work got done. Whereas we were once statistically more productive than similar corporations doing similar things, we became very unproductive. We used to win corporate awards, like we turned TWI's print dept fron a basic one color duplication shop to a fully functioning 4+ color printing facility on less than one year. The next year we won an award for being one of the top 100 in-house printing facilites in the US.
TWI's computer folks developed one of the first computerized Bible in the world it was called "Wordworker - The Computerized New testament"
Our motorcoaches won awards for having some of the best interior designs in coach technology at the time.
Ambassador one was the first Convair 580 in the world to get the jet assist engine retrofit to become a "Super Convair," an award winning undertaking. The improvements made to NK Airport to accomodate Ambassador One also made it the best rural airport in Ohio and one of the best in the US. NK airport was considered an "international" ariport whn Amb1 flew from there.
Twi (Al Grumelot) people invented a snow crawler people transport vehicle beyond the capabilities of those currently in service. It was called "The Snow Way." The plan was to use it at Camp Gunnison for winter tours up though the mountains, and sell it commercially for use at ski resorts, etc....
People were doing outstanding things in the arts, translations (like we republished William Jennings Syriac New Testament Lexicon, we [they] were working on an Aramaic Interlinear Bible) and all kinda of stuff. Things like developing some work on color-music harmony to be able to design architecture and interior design that could be done in visual "keys" that correspond with music. We had plans on the table for a Way Healing Arts Center that would focus on holistic healing practices and be designed with colors, themes etc. that were spititually "right-on" that would promote physical healing.
VPW was involved w/ and spearheaded all of that stuff and more with his last few years of vitality. Ken McCaw had already won an international competition to write an anthem for the Olympics. We had done two 13 week seasons of "High Country Caravan - Entertainment For All People By Christians." That was well recieved in and Broadcast in TV markets all around the country.
VP had been writing a column in the local News papers called "By The Way" - it was kind of an "out of the horse's mouth" perspective on the Way; editorials by VPW type of thing. They were a sort of apologetic explanatory educational thing about TWI. Each editorial ended with his personal tag line, "You are welcome at The Way."
All of that stuff wound down and stopped right along w/VPW. When he died, the in-fighting escalated.
Athletes of the Spirit was supposedly one of the key ventures in a spiritual/cultural revolution TWI was supposedly involved with. LCM made sure we basicallt turned all of ther esources of TWI towards AOS. It turned out to be crap. (Just in case you wondered how so many talented people could put out such a big load of crap.... Each area was happening simultaneously, LCM was approving (or disapproving everything) independantly of everything else. There was noone with any creative abilities overseeing the whole thing. I remember it was this big tadoo about the first wholescalre rehearsal. Very dissappointing.)
When POP hit it became possible for some of us to say, "I told you so..." About things we'd been arguing about. There was a time when, "I knew VP's way" had some weight. Then people became "Gartmore-ites." Those who had the personal financial wherewithal to go, or whose job took them there went. The came back & begand speaking at night-owls, hoot-owls & stuff, singing the praises of CG and how Gartmore was what HQ once was. People went there on "returning to God" pilgrimiges (sp?). Then it became like, "If you haven't been to Gartmore, you haven't turned back to God."
POP's fall-out turned into, "We've ALL turned from God, not just the trustees." Then. Where it had been that people gave us staffers carte blanc respect. They now looked at us like, "YOU did it, YOU killed VP."
Yaaaa!!!!! I didn't kill anybody!
From one perspective at first I think in general we felt it didn't matter how we got turned around, it was only important that we were turning. I was like....
"There aint no huge process. If you need to repent, REPENT, dammit! God don't live in Gartmore, he lives in ME. Christ IN you remember?" Geez, I haven't thought about this stuff for so long.
My theory on the bottom line of POP is that there was a major power struggle, "everybody" (among the top leadership) wanted to be the next VP. Everybody wanted to have the access he had, invitations to Presidential inaugurations, the airplanes, motorcoaches, everything it seems. People forgot anything about having a personal place in the body of Christ where God had placed them.
Pretty much any hop of TWI died w/ VPW. Not that he was so great, but he was standing in the way of other folks having the power. If it wasn't Chris W/ POP it would have happened later.
Can you imagine what thigngs would have been like if JAL, Ralph, Vince, Etc. Were still arouond with LCM ranting like he did? There would have been a major mutiny anyway.
POP. and it's fall-out saved a lot of folks a LOT of grief.
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sirguessalot
something helpful, perhaps
(sorry it looks so long...i'm aiming for density...lol)
is to attempt to view the TWI experience as not only a part of a larger whole wave of peaks, but having a complex and ongoing multitude of sub-factors and sub-contexts
and, how we experienced it and continue to experience it as an individual, both inwardly and outwardly
and how we experienced it and continue to experience it as a collective, both inwardly and outwardly
because simultaeneously from within these four "dimensions," if you will, we have and do witness many intersections of causality, though we may have come to favor one "dimension" over another, perhaps even at the expense of the others. this is only natural. innocent, if you will
we often reject one "dimension" as not having any causal influence or validity at all (thus, arises arguments such as "culture versus choice being the cause crime"...arguing from seperate cages, in a sense)
both collective and individual truths exist as aspects of one truth, just as inward and outward are a wider spectrum of different "thicknesses" of one body.
in other words, VP (and ilk) played a key role in their own rises and falls,
but we (and ilk) also somehow "made" him and them and us rise and fall together.
just as we do now, and always
TWI reminds me of like how the grunge scene pretty much "made" Kurt Cobain "happen" (not simply the other way around). it spit him out like an offspring of the angst. which is why so many people resonated with his words and passionate expressions. it was a collective expression of self. and "Kurt" was a lick among a wave of "Kurts". this was and is still a mirror of some generational wave of truth, expanding outward throughout sub-cultures of concentric circles, overlapping other circles caused by other splashing things...yada yada yada
no, not like strict orderly arranged circles on a legal pad
but like ripples on ripples on the surface of a pond in the rain
and so perhaps even the silly rain (outer collective) can show us something useful about the fluidity of humanity (inner collective) and how we react to each other (individuals).
and rain, it seems, being always true, cannot tell a lie
and Kurt himself was still equally a complex individual in the midst of all this
even though he was also a mirror, just as the crowd was simultaeneously a mirror of him
can we not look in a mirror on still not realize what it is we see?
and all the causes and effects continue to change and evolve in their own historical unfoldings. the effects themselves always changing its meanings and values and complexities over the passage of time.
the story is never quite over
and the general "spirit" of things has a way of turning all things inside out and upside down, imo. eventually.
and its not our believing and wishing and wanting that causes it to do so
(because it is going to "flip" someday regardless, and is already trying to)
what counts more, it seems, is how aware we are of its happening
and no matter how painful the truth of all our mirrors if life may be, and as in all shadows, there is a gift hiding. otherwise, it would not have happened at all.
i have seen and believe that there is such an "order" in God's universe
but not flat. rather...the order is equally exotic and wild and daring and courageous enough to break itself at times
there is a bitter-sweet graciousness in that, imo
if we could only learn how to simply witness "it" in the present moment
we might find that free will we often seek
not sure what you mean by "giving too much creedence to VP," Sunesis. I have stated that he was "a sorcerer" who hoodwinked himself and others. And that his spiritual peak is something he stumbled over and was kinda like what happens when being hit over the head with a shovel, or being in a car accident. and that it was brief and small and something that happened to many in a wave, and that many others surpassed him in the depth (or height) of their own peaks (such as us here)
i also stated that this crude sloppy spike was perhaps "high" but brief, and served mostly to move him from "a low place" to a "mid place," and that he didnt really understand what happened to him in a greater context. and his pre-existing and ongoing unresolved "issues" were more or less amplified by that "bump"
the dimensions and degrees of difference between VP and some realized saint who lives in the mountains and comes down from time to time to actually heal and help...is quite a wide one.
i am talking miles wide difference
on a scale of 1 to 100, globally and historically, VPs overall life and ministry may have measured something like a 2 or 3 on "the spiritual goodness earthquake scale."
i'm giving most of the credit to the grace of God, perhaps. but not to VP. not from here.
and the concept of there being one "good God" and many "bad gods" is true enough, imo, in a certain sense. VP himself became a "bad god." he was possessed by his cigs and his booze and johnson and his buddies like a small pantheon of "bad gods"
but imoae, The Divine is neutral and exists in a spectrum and is everpresently so, which is why "God is so Good" and benevolant. there is no partiallity in Spirit. it is all inclusive. it is universal and eternally so. ultimately, everything is within This. and so what is not "of God?"
touchy subject...and no offense, but its mostly I and we who unconsciously make devils and demons out of the dark corners of our understanding
and so even for some backwoods schmuck to peek into the I AM by fasting and praying for a spell(which is a neutral act), it is what it is, and was what it was, regardless of what happened before, or what happens next. he is no Ann, Francis, Peter or Paul...he was an envious Simon with some "magic tricks" to bewitch an audience (because his neutral "peeks" showed him some true things about human nature. intentionality is a different matter)
imo, his peak was of only a few of his lines of intelligence, and shows mostly in things like his charts and concepts and models and in what he chose to copy-cat and rip and cut and paste of things he saw
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GrouchoMarxJr
I dunno...I think the fact that Wierwille chose lcm to replace him, speaks volumes. There were so many capable people who would have kept the trains running on time...Martindale was not one of them...and that was painfully obvious...it should have been painfully obvious to Wierwille BEFORE he chose him instead of afterwords...Wierwille got divine guidance?...yeah, and I'm the fifth Beatle.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
HCW VP
WAS
MY
FATHER IN THE WORD
are you ignoring that statement in regard VP was like a grandfather to you?
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HCW
I think not Song. BTW, I prefer HC to HCW. We're among friends here, right?
I'm not ignoring you, just left the computer to take my boys to our martial arts class.
I'm really not sure if I follow your drift Song. Maybe its because I never really went for that "Father in the Word" stuff.
I always thought it was more than a little bit pretentious & presumptuous for LCM to refer to VP as his Father in the word themn pass that designation on to all of us.
Maybe its because I'm more than a little numb to marketing messages cause I craft them "everyday" in my work.
Maybe its because I've always carried more than a little resentment about Craig's presumptuousness. Like what is it about playing tight end in college that means you should ALWAYS play steady QUARTERBACK in the local pickup game with the guys.
After all when the Apostle Paul was spoken of as "fathering" the believers in the first Century in the gospel of Christ. He actually WAS the leader of the group one of the FIRST to bring the word to the people that GOD, himself ordained as HIS word. I mean like Paul's letters became the fricken Bible, right?
It was just more than presumptuous to align one'self in spiritual significance with Paul.
So. I could never really get with the Father in the word stuff beyound a figure of speech seeing as all VPW "fathered" us in was his OWN words. VPW didn't bring me the Bible. The Gideons did that.
?
All I ever expected of him was that he'd teach some stuff from the Bible that modern churches didn't teach (the word as it hadn't been taught for centuries).
Could it be that I communicated more in that "adopted grandfather" comment than I intended? Terms like teacher, coach, father, mentor are all more intimate to me than Adopted Grandfather. I also intended to communicate that it was he who more adopted me that I adopted him as "grandfather." He did the mentoring more than I requested to be mentored.
So no. I don't think I get what you're saying Song. What ARE you saying?
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HCW
Amen Groucho. Is it just me or are all of the volumes it speaks not good?
When I got a job in a Fortune 100 company and got to work around REAL corporate executive types... I WISH LCM would be given the reins of a $20 mil business unit or a real corporation revenue size of TWI when he took over.
In his own words, he'd be a greasespot by midnite before the end of the first week. I mean really, a REAL CEO has C.E.O. written all over him. They have REAL, tangible track record before even being considered for the job. Craig had never held a real JOB.
Maybe VP thought Donnie would run the company and Craig would teach?
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HCW
To be clear. I meant to say the volumes it speaks are not good.
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TheInvisibleDan
I tend to think that any "hop" departed from the organization along with all the people
who hopped away...twi ultimately underestimated its greatest asset and resource - its people.
I'm all the more convinced of that when reading of the various accomplishments you cited.
I agree that VPW seemingly functioned as a "restraining" force which kept the other "men of sin" at bay. Then when this "man of sin" was taken from their midst, all hell broke loose (lol).
It's strange but true.
Thank you for your fascinating post, HCW.
Danny
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sirguessalot
ditto, HCW.
i just wanted to tell you how much i appreciate your detailed additions to this..on many levels
(everyone else too, i could quote the whole thread)
just sifting thru your words, HCW...i see so many things that reflect what i've been trying to "get at"
especially as it pertains to the ripples that erupted around the genuine brotherhood/sisterhood aspect of TWI
to add: like one small flock among a new developing way of evangelical bible-study christianity in a new hyper-era of innovation and independence in america (though TWI was one of the odder balls, fer sure. ive seen way odder sub-things in religion...equal to or greater in magnitude than TWI))
with all kinds of new and competing "spiritual brotherhood" aspects going off everywhere
like many small heaps and circles of programmed amd indoctrinated exclusivity..like so many self-repeating but adaptive structures/processes (thus, the offshoots and PFALish principles being taught on catholic tv)
as with business, modern religion entered a new evolutionary phase together...and quite rapidly, in anthropological time
industriality and technology and complexity and integration and wide spectrum cross-training and specialization...all off the charts in the last century
like some new dawn, waking fields of flowers one horizon at a time
and re: TWI's advancing the art of banality...one of those many lines of human intelligence i was talking about
that specialist with a square and plum-line, a valid useful sub-aspect of our being, one that strives to make things "primo" and "dialed-in"
(as my custom log home builder friend always says)
but can be quite ruthless, cold and nasty when in charge and somehow hungry
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Too Gray Now
All right, this is my last post on this topic...
So, what the hell is VPs spirituality, anyway?
See what y'all think of this approach.
This thread seems to have a lot of “nots†in it.
Ever notice how many times people will use “NOT†–statements in order to be more persuasive or emphatic? (But in the end, they actually said LESS?)
Here are a few -
I am glad that I do not fellowship with TWI.
VP was a scamming, huckster – who had the “notâ€-type of spirituality - .
LCM said I would be a Grease Spot by Midnight if I left – but I was not.
The new Democratic party which Howard Dean is defining, is one that will NOT put up with it any more...
“Daddy, don’t smoke anymoreâ€.
The love is gone, it is just not there.
These statements share one thing in common – they all make statements about what isn’t – or what wasn’t, or what will no longer be.
I get the sense that this thread does a better job (overall) of answering a different question, “Theories on what VPWs spirituality was not.â€
The way we have answered on this thread suggests to me that it is difficult to for most of us to say we know what his spirituality really “wasâ€.
After reading this thread again, I feel like Steve Martin and Bill Murray on that SNL skit when he stood there and looked quizzically into the camera and repeated for the next 5 min. (using varying inflections) and said…
“What the hell is THAT??!!â€
“I don’t know what the hell that is!!†link to the actual skit
At the end of the skit, you had no more of an idea what it was than when they started… except to say, that had it been EASY to recognize, they would have recognized it for what it was. Their difficulty in recognizing “it†was part of the universal intrigue.
This thread is part of the universal answer as to why each of was ever involved… we did not know what it was.!!
The fact that SNL could make this topic funny says more about me, than them…
I just don’t know what the HELL it says about VP??!!!
:)-->
One thing is for sure, if SirGuess had asked what his spirituality wasn’t – I think we could nail that…
:)--> Actually…. I think we just did.
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sirguessalot
thats some funny ****, 2g
i think you might have nailed it (for a sec...lol)
nice mug btw
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CM
A glimse-perhaps a shadow
perhaps a slight insight to the real
spiritual truth that evades most
misinterpreted by a mind that was
inflicked with it's own torment
fallen back to the old
inspite of the new
generations seeking
but lost in the sea
waters of darkness
the spirit moving
sinking yet holding on to little
not patient but
overeacting
without the counsel
of many who were there
Lost in the waters of self
rather then the bigger picture
from the sky
good thing JC didn't fall for this trap
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excathedra
i'll tell you what was healthy for me.... the old snake died.... and it set me free.... somehow i realized i didn't have to buy the moggy bull**** from the younger ones
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
needed a father, not a brother..... i have 5 of those
; )
as to his spirituality....
how do you measure heartache and spirituality, todd ?
isn't spirituality a good thing ?
if so, he didn't get a good grade in my book
of course i'm not god, so he can take it up with whomever
sigh
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