Personally, from where I sit & sat I do believe that at one time God called VP. As suspect as the snow on the gaspumps thing may seem to us - God HAS done stranger things as recorded in the Bible.
It was something he said he SAW. I know I've "seen" things from God that weren't really there. So the reality or lack thereof of the snow thing really never bothered me personally.
I beleieve that at one point there WAS a "ministry of God" emanating from New Knoxville. I actually saw "possessed" people delivered. I "felt the love" and lived a little piece of stuff like from Elena Whiteside's book "The Way Living in Love." I've been healed there both miraculously physically and emotionally.
BUT. I went away from HQ and came back to find "the love" missing and spent the next eight years of my life trying to recapture it; like someone else mentioned earlier up the thread.
Objectively speaking. I have never believed that VP's whole body of teachings, his total spirituality, so to speak, EVER was to be considered as "Teaching The Word as it hadn't been taught for centuries." The most I EVER believed was that our thing before God, our (TWI's) place in the universe, our position as A ministry AMONG God's ministries, VPW's thing as A man of God AMONG many, many others; contemporary and through other times in history was this:
The great mystery.
To me, everything else he taught was of lesser importance to that one thing. There were and are plenty of ministries who teach everything VP taught. Few if any were and ARE actively trying to LIVE the GREAT MYSTERY as it seemed to me like WE were trying to do.
That great mystery, hid in God for generations, that, if the Prince of this world knew it, he would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. The riches of which, the result of which, is Christ IN you - - THE hope of glory.
THAT to me was "God's word as it hadn't been taught for centuries." The other stuff - - well.... the important thing was the mystery. Where could you go then (during the tenure of PFAL) where can you go now, what ministry, what church, what minister, what Bible class (even WAP and this "new" stuff current TWIglets speak of???) has the teacher repeating....
"Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ IN you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you.... Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you...." like that.
All that emphasis, all that drama, charisma, etc. THAT is what I bought into. Getting THAT word over the World is what I dedicated MY life to. I wanted to live the ONE BODY of Christ and be an example of that - - a living witness to the world of what life could be if we all lived with held fast to the idea that we were and are all family, God's family. Dysfunctions, warts smelly feet et. al.
To this day, even in the church I attend now, even though we have a lofty goal of "Being an example of what life would be like if lived out among a community of believers." (In Christ) I have NEVER heard one teaching that can hold a candle to that 20 minute section of PFAL on Christ in you." Never, not ONCE.
TWI obviously has lost the mystery. My theory on VPW's spirituality is that I believe he once WAS "tapped in" to God. He had his skeletons, his lusty desires as we ALL do. He gave in to them.
In your summation of vp hcw, I think that you are probably right ...
Probably all the rest of us all DO have skeletons and demons....however, I wonder if that may be the differance between true spirituality and counterfit christianity.
The real folks overcome their shortcomings, the counterfit make excuses as to why they continue to indulge in, or else find ways to justify bad behavior.
After dealing with different alcoholics all of these years, I have to wonder how much of his downfall was bad judgement due to his excessive drinking.
Drunks are masters at being abusive sob`s and then blaming everyone else for their bad behavior.......they also make notoriously poor choices and then blame everyone else for their failures.....the ones I know tend to be extremely manipulative, not really giving a damn about anyone or anything else.
He may have been just a man with shortcomings, but what has branded him as a complete scounderal is that he masqueraded and won our trust and support as God`s representative.... presenting himself as a man of character and integrety....He then utilized God and scriptures to sanction theft, abuse and cruelty :-( That in my opinion puts him in a whole other camp than your average human with frailities and shortcomings.
It went beyond *giving in to lustiness* when he began Abusing those he was to nurture. I am thinking of a woman who wrote and told how he thoroughly destroyed her life at 17 .... a wow who was out there to move God`s word, who wanted to grow with God, but simply made the mistake of not complying with vp`s desires for sex on a motorcade visit. Within a couple of weeks she was declared posessed and thrown off of the wow field, destroying her credibility with all of her friends. Her Sister told me that when she inquired personally, vp further more looked this family member straight in the eye and lied, LIED warning them that the sister was posessed......breeding mistrust for decades....Her father wrote, saying that the tc`s even demanded that they not allow their OWN daughter to stay at their house 20 some odd years after the fact. He visciously did everything in his power to tear away EVERYTHING this girl had....
It takes a special kind of orneriness to deliberatly attempt to so utterly destroy a person utilizing your authority as a minister as your weapon....it is far worse than merely giving in to temptation now and then...it is dispicable.
It actions like this that discredit him as my brother who had shortcomings and just needs forgivness and understanding....and moves him squarely into the camp of evil wolf in sheeps clothing, false prophet, a predator that needs to be avoided, and his ability to hurt destroyed if possible to prevent further carnage.
I think what also angers me about VP is that he went after teenagers - starting in Rye during the "groovy" christian era and never stopped.
I work with young people at work. Even though some of them are in the early 20s, from my aged viewpoint (when did this happen?), they are babies, little kids. They try so hard to please, do a good job, etc. For someone in a position of authority like VP was to prey on these young, naive, innocent kids (and most of them are naive) - is sickening. They're like little lambs making their way. To try and destroy a little 17 year old's life and estrange her from her family - if that's not a wolf, I don't know what is.
After reading this stuff I feel like I have more to say on VPW. Please forgive me if it gets too long....
My experience in TWI had led me to really understand that Power corrupts . Period. I used to think of it like, "be careful because power can corrupt you if you let it."
Now I've altered that position to something like, "Power IS a corrupting influence on your life. If you do not take specific, continual and effective steps to counter the constantly corruptive aspects of having "power," it's influence it WILL consume you. Period. It is only a matter of time before you WILL lose yourself in the intoxicating influence of power."
My boys (5 & 8yrs old) ask me every night after I send them to the bathroom & bed,
"Daddy will you read us a Bible story? Please Daddy?" I always take the time and miss whatever is on TV or stop whatever work and just open the Old Testament and flip to a narrative on somebody & start reading. I read till they fall asleep, usually a few minutes. The other day I was reading about Saul, as Samuel scolded him
(1 Samuel 15) "... as you have rejected the Word of the Lord, the Lord has rejected you from being King."
Believe what you will about Vp, nobody can argue that he rejected the word of the Lord, at least specifically in terms of being faithful to "the wife of his youth."
I believe that whatever ministry VP had, he rejected the word of the Lord. I believe it "repented God that He had made" VP whatever he had and as VP continued along that path God rejected him. Without God, the TWI machine became an empty shell, power, corruption, "I gotta get Mine." took over to the the point where its been and continues.
I just don't see, Harry Wierwille, Ermal Owens, George Jess (the first WC Director) Milford & Betty Bowen and other OLD, Old timers like Grace Bliss; people prior to Jimmy Doop, etc. as being all of the negatives spouted about VP. I don't see them supporting him in anything but a meaningful, solid, Godly thing. THEY built TWI's foundations. THEY ran the cameras, published the flyers cooked the food, gave of more of their lives than most ANY of the rest of US ALL. They were & are salt of the earth people. They volunteered to work for TWI temporarily on a need basis. (Which has not become etched in stone as a "thou SHALT ONLY work for TWI on a need basis.) They REALLY knew VP. The knew what he was trying to do and volunteered of their time and resources to make TWI become a reality. They are who I saw when I first came to work at HQ. They are who I interviewed at length about what TWI was about. "What was happening in this (old black & white) picture? Who is that?"
They weren't so taken with VP that they worshipped him. They knew who and what VP was especially his BROTHERS Harry & Rueben.
I worked side by side with Milford Bowen for years, J. Fred & Ellie Wilson were great friends of mine. I lived & ate many, many meals with Ralph Dubovsky, when Vince Finnegan & others from the 3rd & 4th Way Corps came back in residence at HQ and lived right next door in TWI's trailer park. Back in the day when the units would shake, rattle & roll when the Ohio winds blew.
I lived at TWI headquarters when the BRC kitchen was always open and you could just go down there and rummage through the fridges for midnite snacks. Ralph was a regular... Jon Mahoney was always there getting something ready from something. When I moved to HQ, VPW's policy was that ALL of the resources of the ministry @ HQ were available to every believer, subject of course to the work of the ministry.
We helped build the OSC & Mrs. VPW furnished it by going to auctions and buying lots of kitchen cabinets from home builders who'd gone out of business. Way Builders made counter tops & I designed the layout for The graphics area of our Way Pub offices.
We ate together, played together, worked to clean up the woods on weekends and we had "household responsibilities" we who lived on grounds could sign up for in addition to our regular jobs, just like chores at home. I did tours and was a VIP driver for stuff like Ambassador One weekends or special Saturday night doo's. I also drove and did lighting for The Way Productions Dance Company. We would put shows together and travel in a van withing a one day radius from HQ., leave Friday night or Saturday morning, set up the venue for the performance, do the show Saturday night and then drive back home to HQ Sunday Am. I also ran camera for SNS on a rotating basis with a few other guys. After a while Joe Coulter taught me how to direct.
After we bought the airplanes (including Ambassador one), the motorcoaches, including VP's (People would get rides on the coach to places VP was going to teach. For example, he'd drop folks off along the way if he was passing through places they wanted to go.) The office quipment, printing presses, typewriters, photocopiers, cleaning supplies, food, even, rooms to stay in at the campuses, cars, fleet vehicles & other equipment, tools, everything was available for use for, theoretically, ANY believer who had use of them. The people who were in charge of whatever were charged to do their best to accomidate the need of ANY believer who requested use of "their" stuff.
A little prior to my arrival to live "at" HQ, TWI would pay the rent for staff people who decided they didn't want to live on grounds. Staff Orientation would include, "Just find a place you want to live in, make arrangementst to get it and tell us how much it costs. TWI used to rent so many apartments at a complex in St marys that we called it "Way Farm 4." TWI staffers had built a great reputation all over the surrounding areas as desired renters because VP had taught that believers should leave a place better than they found it.
I shot weddings on a very regular basis because believers were "always" wanting to get married at the BRC. Almost every Saturday morning, especially in the warmer months I took about an hour out of my day and went down to the BRC and shot complementary pictures of the believers getting married. I'd get them processed and put in press releases in the local papers - - weekly. Believers could write to me and request copies of the stuff I shot, free of charge.
More than a few believers flew all around the country on Ambassador One. You would call Flight Services and find out when the plane would be going where and get free airfare for vacations, business trips, etc. by scheduling your trip around what the plane was doing.
We even put together a skiing trip to Crested Butte, Colorado where we'd fly out on Amb1, stay at Camp Gunnison for $10.00/night (to cover housekeeping costs) and use fleet vehicles to shuttle us to the skiing area & back. All we had to do was schedule the trip at a time when the place was otherwise sitting around and convince the pilots to come & stay at the camp or ski for a weekend at some of the best skiing in the country! We planned to cover the fuel for the plane & our own expenses for the trip. The pilots were happy to fly folks places or even just give believers airplane rides because thay had to keep their hours up to remain certified.
We had maternity leave, "as long as you feel you need it." (My wife at the time took two years off when Jaz was born.) Mothers were encouraged to bring babies to work & put them in playpens in the office if they wanted to come back to work while they were little. Free childcare, etc. When you got married, your spouse was automatically given a job at HQ too (at first, if they wanted it). The perks of being at HQ made your actual money go further because there were "lots" of things we could get from TWI for free or extremely reduced rates that we'd otherwise have to pay a lot for.
These were the things that originally prompted them to start calling TWI the best corporation in the world. I was like, its pretty good, but nowhere near the BEST.
But, I felt pretty darn rich myself when I worked there (in a way, for a while). Like the time my septic system backed up & I contacted transportation & borrowed a big pump truck to pump it out. It was like going down to my garage & getting out my big truck. I got it stuck in my yard (I didn't realize that big heavy truck would become incredibly heavy truck after filling it and that my soft lawn would be REALLY soft for many days after a good rain ) I had to let it sit there for days then get a bigger tractor to tug on the big truck to ease it away from the leech field that was always softer than the rest of the lawn. Who knew that was where the stuff from the toilet went after a flush? I'm a city kid! My grass was ruined. I had to borrow a big roller to flatten out the huge grooves I made all the way around my house.
At any rate I think you can see that the TWI I lived in was worlds away from later twi II experiences. VP's policy was that anything that belonged to TWI belonged to any and every believer because it was their money that bought it. He said we were stewards of what God had provided us for the work of the ministry and anytime something wasn't being used for the ministry it should be available for the believers to use.
Of course he had things that were his, I had things that were mine too, like I wouldn't lend MY motorcycle any more than he'd lend his Harley. I did use the limos for dates though. I drove him and other VIP's in his Lincoln for special events & stuff too. I once hitched a ride on the Way Productions motorcoach to St. Louis to pick up a Datsun 280z I bought from a WC bro of mine.
BTW, VP didn't have many tricked out Harleys when he died. He had, like two. He had a white one that he'd had for a long time then we bought him "The Twig Hopper." That one was a retirement gift from the Staff of TWI, specifically the "Family Motorcycle Club" and we did, we tricked it out to the max. Sidecar, wireless helmet mounted intercom system custom chrome. We FMC members were motocycle enthusiasts and made sure the Twig Hopper had literally every cool thing you could put on a Harley at the time. We even built some completely custom stuff that wasn't available to be bought. Like we added extra lights to it make it safer at night then realized that motorcycle batteries wouldn't put out enough juice to keep the light bright. So they designed a belt driven generator that the wheels rolling would power it to produce the additional electricity to run all of the custom electrical.
We also used The Twig Hopper as an outreach tool. We took it all around the country competing in (and winning most) custom motorcycle shows and placed it in a lot of display at malls, etc. We would witness to people who showed some interest. At one time it was considered one of the top Dress Harleys in the Country. It was VP's but we used it more than he did. Wonder what happened to it. About the only thing that VP had tha was off limits was his Lincoln.
The silver Lincoln was a gift from one of the large groups of WOW's. They all pitched in to buy it for him for his birthday or something, I don't remember the occasion. He had wanted one like that for many years and he loved that thing. If I remember correctly the WOW raised almost enough $$ to buy it and the WOW dept. kicked in the rest from their budget. That was the only vehicle in TWI's fleet that was never available for use unless VP was in it. There were only about three of us guys who were allowed to even drive it. Chris Geer, a copule of guys who drove the motorcoaches, one other guy & me is all I knew of. VP was very particular, as you know.
VP wasn't the only one living a privileged experience in TWI. I was in many ways a rank & file staffer. TWI made a lot of stuff available to staffers, I just utilized things the ministry made available. I also worked to make things available for others. Like babysitting people's kids when I was single. I watched Howard Allen's kids when they were little & remember telling Vince Finnegan's kid who was being an "executive brat" on more than one occasion, "I don't care WHO yo Daddy is, HE told ME that if you don't do what I say I should tell HIM on YOU !
That was a part of the TWI I lived in. This stuff fits with this thread in that it was policies HE developed and inforced in the same vehement manner an has been shared concerning his abuse of people. I've seen him ream people for being stupidly wasteful of ministry resources. "That thing is not YOUR'S! The BELIEVERS own this place! WIPE your FEET when you come in from the MUD!"
This contributes, I think, to a discussion on VPW's spirituality. I'm not waxing nostalgic or offering apologies for VP's negative behavior. This stuff is just as factual as the bad stuff.
Amen sunesis....the most vulnerable.... Factor in kids that have been abused and neglected, youngsters whom turned to you in hope....deeply yerning for the answeres that you claim to provide in their troubled unstable lives...it is criminal and makes my blood boil..
Maybe this is so very personal because my sweet daughter is within a month or two of being the same age as that girl....She too is naieve and trusting....deeply sensative ... I understand the earnestness of wanting to do a good job and overwhelming need to be well thought of....the willingness to please.
For vp and lcm....sex was no biggie, they did it all the time....for a youngster to be bullied into it and then discarded is devastating. To be ostracized for non compliance..... crushing.
To carry it to the extreme of drugging the unsuspecting victim....and then have them spend the rest of their lives disgusted with themselves....unable to understand why they were weak...unconscionable.
To prey on the vulnerability of a naieve teenager, to manipulate them through their fears, their deep desire to please and be accepted..... really really falls way beyond the pail of *shortcomings* It is downright destuctive and evil.
Hcw, no doubt the people that you mentioned WERE decent..... it is their decency and character that disarmed folks` suspicions.
I`ll gaurantee that they were not aware of vp`s shenanigans, or they wouldn`t have supported him.
I think THAT is the secret to vp`s success, he utilized other folk`s ministries ....their good names and characters...their reputations of success... it was their love and decency we saw and were drawn to.
You know Rascal, I wonder too, how much the drinking had to do with stuff concerning his downfall.
It was a real blow to me the first time I saw VPW drunk. He lost a LOT of my respect that day. In my mind I moved him over a category into "VERY fallable." I think that may have contributed for me to not be more hurt by him. I expected less of him from that moment on.
That helped me to stand up to him because I just didn't feel that a man who felt the necessity to drink into drunkenness in his position wasn't any "better" than me. I actually saw him as lesser than me from that point.
What you said contributes to my thinking that HE turned away from God. I have to admit seeing a huge spot of hypocracy in him as one of the guys on the cross said of Jesus, "He's said so much about saving others, why can't he save himself?"
Not comparing VP to Jesus.
Yes Sunesis. It also angers me that he went after teenagers. He rationalized so much SO wrongly. We teens may have been jumping in and out of bed with each other having sex like rabbits, but HE wasn't US. He had that singular position as LEADER. Spiritual leader makes it all the worse. It was wrong if the teens were doing it, worse when he did it to them.
I have a really great friend who was one of the "Groovy Chistians" at Rye. She never spoke in worshipful manner concerning VP... I wonder why?
Again I agree with you. I did a stint teaching in a college. Some of my students were well into adulthood in their 20's. There is an unwritten, sacred trust that goes with leading younger people that is evident the moment you walk in to the situation; it screams, "Take GOOD care of me!." I, and some of the other male instructors would often comment about the constant temptation even if the girls DON'T come on to you. Some do, OVERTLY, some do, unconsciously, some seem to "come on to you" even when it is the last thing on their minds. I totally agree with administration who say it is a matter of character. A line you can NEVER even THINK about crossing. One step across the line was a cause for termination.
VP. for some reason had his own boundary issues where he couldn't, or at least we know didn't adhere to the most obvious of boundaries. There is a line of thinking that calls for adults (in this case women) to take personal responsibility for their level of culpability for their involvement in situations like these. I have re-thought my personal position to what I feel is a very simple, point blank place.
When you are technically the "responsible party" YOU are responsible, totally, for what happens between you and a subordinate.
I expanded that logic into dealing with my teenage daughter after we had a really bad argument where she was quite frankly out of her teen-aged mind. I felt horrible after and decided that since I'm the Dad, I was responsible for the argument even though I wasn't responsible for what she said. We have had several disagreements since, but no more arguments because I REFUSE to argue. I think that won more respect from her and I can now "talk her down" out of the same "trees" we once would argue in. She's still just as insane. I just better understand that there are certain things that cause her to lose her mind and I take responsibility for avoiding them FOR her in the event we disagree.
I do that because I LOVE my children. Our sister excie will attest that VPW did NOT love her, no matter what he said.
Concerning VPW's spirituality? He did NOT love US. I think he was damaged, lacking the capability to love truly with the love of God, in the renewed mind in manifestation that he spoke so often of.
Again a simple line of thinking, If he did love us, he WOULD have LOVED us.
He may have wanted to, but he didn't.
I think it ironic that it was though his ministry that we learned, some of us learned OF the love of God from "him." Some learned more about love through his words. Now we, after his death discuss how HE was incapable of loving with the love he taught about.
Mor of the irony is that his own repeated actions kept him from recieving the healing he needed from God.
Its been a kind difficult pill to swallow, the truth about "ol' VP." When you look at him in totality there is no choice but to swallow the more sallow aspects of his character, it changes the flavor of whatever sweetness is in the mix.
Doesn't it?
I firmly believe there ARE some black & white issues - - there are some absolute truths that we have no choice but to adhere to. In my life now I'm learning more and more what some of them are.
Yup rascal. I'm thinking some of the shenanigans started(?) later down the road like the late sixties, early 70's when the influx of young folk hit.
Yes, the ministries of other people. That's why I never speak of him as THE man of God for our time. A bit grandiose for my thinking. I could never "chapter & verse" it that ANYone was EVER called THE man of God in the Bible.
Hmmmm......... If you ever heard Grace Bliss "pshaw!" at the mention of Vp being called THE MOG... Grace was a true woman of God. SHe was living proof of what Proverbs says about God lengthening your days. I remember her in the 80's in HER 80's. She knew some stuff & had a REAL connection with God. She just run around doing great things for people. She just "Knew stuff." It was incredible. She had a REAL ministry.
There were lots of folks around who undeniably had real ministries. The conglomerate of them/us all was the TWI we knew and loved. VP was only a part of it. For a lot of people he wasn't even the biggest part. George Jess never "went Corps," He WAS The Way Corps. He actually personified WC goals in the way he lived. He had NO desire to prove anything to anyone, he just did what he did & it got done. Ermal Owens was so humble that in about a year I don't remember him saying more than a sentance or two.
That first year @ HQ we were surrounded by so many impressive people who got SO much done with SO little. If you paid any attention to them you couldn't help but want to help. It added a LOT of credence to VPW. Their ministries were certainly worth buiding on and fighting for and saving. Walter Cummins just seemed to know the WHOLE darn Bible. Greek, hebrew, syriac, you name it. It was like he had the whole Bible on the tip of his tongue. He's the genuine real deal Bible scholar dude.
Knowing them and being around them kinda made it worth being there. TWI at its best was like a puzzle with VPW only being one piece of it. I'm thinking that's kinda why some of us older -timers are a little shocked at the concept of throwing away you whole twi experience because of VP's indescretions. Vp was only a part of my TWI experience.
He had little to do with the "Word in Fine Arts" stuff I was into. Beth Lowder, John & Meg Kish and others of us did some really ground-breaking bilbical research on artsy fartsy type stuff. Things like the significance of color in the Bible and Biblical documentation of the effect of color on people. We even came up with a pallete of colors for this theory on color-music harmony. Some of the ministry fine artists did some experimental paintings utilizing "color chords" that correspond with musical chords. The theory is that a painting in the colors corresponding with, say, a 'C' chord will "look" like the chord sounds.
You may remember the paintings in the lunchroom at Emporia? Remember the swans? The formation was a group of notes that would play a little riff. I did a few illustrations in different chords to see if the mood of the chord would be reflected in the painting; stuff like that VP was really not involved with.
He had set some things in motion then we picked up the ball & ran with it.
I don't know that Vp overtly used other people ministries so he could hide out & get nookie. He certainly took advantage of and created his own opportunities though.
Many may feel that (overly simplified version) LCM came along and "ruined" the good ol' days of TWI. I don't. Craig was up front, he certainly contributed, but my theory is that it was a fractured relationship between DON Wierwille and VP that led to the downfall.
Dysfunctional elements in his own nuclear family effected VP negatively. The thing with Don was major. VP was very hurt when Don REFUSED for years to work at HQ.
Daughter Karen didn't go WOW or WC & moved away to a normal life with husband & family. Sara & JP WOULDN'T go corps for the LONGEST time. They HATED how "everyone" assumed they would "walk on water" and be so "spiritually great" because they were VP's children.
My job put me in proximity and I became a friend of the family and got tho know them all well enough to know there was a LOT to their private family relationships that "nobody" knew.
The information is "out there" and can be put together to show that VP, who was always, admittedly, a loose cannon DID, "middle finger" the NK community with his education and desire NOT to follow tradition and work the family farm. There are things you "just don't do" in New Knoxville and deeding your family farm over to a world renouned cult, bringing in all those outsiders is chief among them. Not to mention the other stuff like riding through town on the seat of your motorcycle and posting your argument on the door of "the big church" in town as being "completely unheard of."
I can see him retreating into the trappings and lacivious "perks" of power & position for some sort of relief, maybe even comfort. He was devastated by his brother Harry's death. He often referred to "Uncle Harry" as his conscious. He was really unprepared to lose him and was in many ways "lost" without Harry. The old folks knew that Harry was the only person in the world who could "control" VP. VP knew he was extremely high strung a classic, extreme A1- Type 1 wild-foot entreprenuerial personality prone to getting "crazy ideas."
He wanted and needed people around him who would stand up to him and tell him "NO. We can't do THAT." After Harry died few people would. I know in my relationship with him there were more than a few times he'd tell me about ideas he wanted to do and I'd just shake my head with bulging eyes, like "Noooo..... we can't do thaaaat..." Lots of people couldn't and didn't want to handle his high strung outbursts.
He'd give you a really terse, "Well WHY NOT!" when you'd tell him no. Lots of folks thought he was trying to intimidate with his countenance when he challenged your ideas. I wasn't intimidated and told him more than once, "... because it just WON'T work." Or I'd say, "... because that outfit looks crazy on you!"
He'd hesitate for a very uncomfortable, eternally long, second or two and then slap his thigh, the table, clap his hands once & shake them with that goofy hand thing he'd do. Then laugh. He got a kick out of people who were confident enough in what they did to not allow him to steamroller them.
He also rolled over more than a few people because he was more high strung than considerate. In certain situations he could be VERY impatient. There were more than a few situations where I had to really grab my kehones and go face to face with him. He HATED it if I would back down from my ideas.
"You're the professional, YOU tell ME what to do, don't ask me how to do what YOU do." ...is one of the major things I took from my relationship with him. I also learned from him how to manage "upwards" and "manage my managers."
Don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing VP, just in some ways, explaning him. I did know him. I did work with him on many projects through the years. I count him among those who mentored me and some of the things he taught me are extremely valuable to me and make up strong pieces of who I am. I don't agree with MUCH of what he did - - although I can sorta see maybe why he did it.
I've always felt that during the P.O.P. time it wasn't totally like the then current TRUSTEES who had turned away from God; as in THEY did but HE didn't. I felt it was more like He turned, they turned the rest of the way and now HE was trying to get THEM to turn back cause he saw how much HE had F'd up (like literally).
So. In conclusion. My theory on VPW is that he didn't sit down at his desk & say... "Hmmm... let me see, I wanna be rich & powerful... what can I do...??? OK. I'll start a cult! I can fake some credentials, rip off some materials, put together some bogus class materials and attract bunches of young hot chicks to have sex with me. Yeah that'll work! I can SCAM th WHOLE world!"
I think it was more like along the way to a genuine goal of moving God's word over the world he ran into some, perhaps anticipated stuff. And he felt, "Hmmm.... I can get away with this."
I just see a lot of the stuff above as highly incongrous with the evil, let's take over the world mentality. "I'll make things SEEM really good when they're not, so I can keep people around & attract more people (as in hot chicks [or even luke warm ones]) to have sex with and live off their money." That just doesn't fit for me.
Sorry this is so long but it makes references that cover at least 40, maybe 50 years. Hope this perspective helps.
Excellent posts HCW - I enjoy reading them. You have an even, balanced perspective.
I was just thinking, and I will have to read up more, that we (most of us in TWI) got in the Word during the "Jesus Freak" movement of the late '60s, early '70s. During those times of anger, rage, constant bombings, etc., millions of us came to Christ - the peace amongst a society seemingly falling apart.
I wonder how many, what I shall call "wolves" were attracted to this, saw an opening, and took it. I think some of the biggest leaders, when you think about them, were predators (Children of God, TWI, a few others).
HCW, I really liked what you said when you said teens and young people do have sex, but with each other. VP was not one of US. That is so true. There's quite a difference between being with someone your own age and someone twice to more than half your age. I have a 16 year old neice, to think of a fifty-something VP pulling his act on her - he wouldn't have lasted long, jail is where he would be.
But, also, back then, as Jesus came to the down and outers, TWI attracted so many, down and out, throw away kids, who would have believed them?
I believe the late '60s early '70s was a true evangelistic revival and movement of God which I feel fortunate to have lived through. I think it attracted the wolves and they fed off the flock.
Now why would a guy who worked the Word "hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year", a guy to whom God spoke audibly, a guy who had a miraculous snowstorm performed by the creator of the heavens and the earth, a guy who was apparently the only man on the planet that would listen to God...
why would this guy want to "get away " with something?
Sunesis, I was one of those throw away kids....people tried to warn me....sigh but I just wanted so desperatly for it to be right and good, a noble force for good in the universe...
I wanted to be a part of the spiritual battle, giving my all in order to help God dispel darkness...make a differance in the world....
To find out that this earnest youthfull desire, the unselfish giving of our lives and resources... was simply utilized to sate the bellies and lusts of the wicked just burns me up....
Maybe you are right hcw, maybe he didn`t start out to take over the world...maybe his desire was genuine....
What I see though is that he was so involved in the mechanics, I dare even say works of achieving the spirituality that he saw and admired in others....that he never really did quite achieve that walk of the spirit.
All of his studying, all of his searching, all of his prayers did not help him to become *of the spirit* they were just the mechanics he utilized to convince himself that he had discovered the right way....
His actions, his arrogance, still placed him squarely in the camp of *of the flesh*
Even the stories you tell of how carefull he was of the *things* that the peoples abs had purchased, but yet on the other hand be so calloused, at times even visciously destructive with the dear souls that were placed in his care....leads me to think that it might not ever have been genuine with him.
(Thus the speculation of false prophet...even in spite of his best efforts)
He took damn good care of things, but yet was able to visciously use people without compunction untill their usefullness was exhausted...this causes me to believe that he didn`t quite understand God or spiritual priorities....ie love God love your neighbor...
Hcw, I gotta ask you, honestly...as screwed up and mean as Chris G was....as much as he completely bought into EVERY bit of vp`s doctrine....as dark as the sins of his soul are....do you really think that what he presented to the bot`s could have been spiritually healthy?
I am wondering because otherwise, your explanation is quite plausible...it would be nice to think that vp changed in the end.
Yeah, Sunesis, I feel the same way. I was not a throwaway kid, however, just a searching one.
And here we are, decades later trying to make sense of it all. I hope I can salvage the good, yet recognize the evil for what it was. Tis a fine line we walk with our past, which so affects our today. :)-->
Rascal, I've been on the planet long enough to know that there are no easy answers to anything. I feel like we have to sort things out for ourselves, so we can keep on keeping on, ya know? Thank goodness we have a place here where we can do that. -->
You bet ex 10 and such wonderfull folks`s company to enjoy while we put the various pieces together....
Each of us have pieces to add to this huge puzzle... sometimes the pieces other folks have to offer don`t appear to fit from the angle I view it.......but as we examine them, maybe turn them a little this way or that, or apply them to a different section...I find that they do indeed fit, and give us an ever growing clearer view of the whole picture.
So. In conclusion. My theory on VPW is that he didn't sit down at his desk & say... "Hmmm... let me see, I wanna be rich & powerful... what can I do...??? OK. I'll start a cult! I can fake some credentials, rip off some materials, put together some bogus class materials and attract bunches of young hot chicks to have sex with me. Yeah that'll work! I can SCAM th WHOLE world!"
Thanks HCW~~~
Never really thought that type of simpleton simplicity, but sure seems that's what happened over/during the long run.
didnt mean to bail on the thread i started, but life sure does sweep one away at times
besides, just reading thru, im amazed at the variety and wisdom in the all the reactions and contributions
im not sure how to respond to the many many directions
but thanks for chiming in...
plz dont let me kill the thread
to patch a few holes, perhaps...
*i mentioned how those early years of many sleepless nights and grape-fasting was probably responsible his most prominant spiritual peak/peek,
and then how most everything after that was somehow less-than or way-less-than that peak. this initial point seems to have been largely missed so far
fasting, like meditation, or intense prayer, as with the contemplative christian traditions, provide a ways and means to move yourself outside of time, outside of body, ourside of ego, by somehow moving physiologically and psychologically closer to death, or radical formless consciousness, or whatever you wanna call it.
and so, to say that VP had a peak experience, or altered state, is not to say that he somehow earned it by wit or virtue or any other such thing.
he basically tripped over it during his suffering. he got lucky.
so what? he had a few "good" years in his youth (pre-pfal, pre-twi)
other things that cause such spikes...almost dying, life-changing illness, drugs, fame, starvation, incredible books, giving birth, losing a family member, getting hit over the head with a shovel...not much to brag about
but then VP descended back into the old world he was born and raised, that of patriarchy, mythic fundamentalism, and a blossoming new hollywood rock star christianity
and then he developed a crude and sloppy imitation of the many perennial philosophies he briefly glimpsed, probably hoping to do good (deep down inside himself, hidden most of the time)
*such spikes come in waves to generations...like wind blowing arcoss the face of a field. only touching the highest blades of grass.
vp was small time player off in the corner of the field...a medium blade, maybe
a time when the printing and distribution of concordances and lexicons and made so many mc-preachers feel like they had the "secret codes" to the "most sacred book." post WW2 earth saw many such unprecedented things.
i would even go as far as to call him a "sorcerer" to use the biblical term. he bewitched others with the spells he learned from his "peak" for personal gain (rather than using his peak for greater good), some of which speels he himself was partially under (his moments outside of himself taught him a few of these things...but to maintain a semblance of this state, he needed booze, sex, cigs, glory fame of an old-fashioned sermon preacher, etc...)
it just happens that VP an ambitious narcissist type who got a glimpse of "the deep" in certain years of his youth, which is a natural time in a man's life to trip over such things
his work and processes (which he taight LCM) were crude, sloppy, lazy, full of holes and errors and blatant copy-cats. but there is a trace of that "glimpse" in his work, and the magnitude of his (and our) "splash" on the collective soul was perhaps not small but more like medium.
there is no doubt in my mind, that PFAL (and ilk) have replicated like a program thru-out modern evangelical christianity
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HCW
Personally, from where I sit & sat I do believe that at one time God called VP. As suspect as the snow on the gaspumps thing may seem to us - God HAS done stranger things as recorded in the Bible.
It was something he said he SAW. I know I've "seen" things from God that weren't really there. So the reality or lack thereof of the snow thing really never bothered me personally.
I beleieve that at one point there WAS a "ministry of God" emanating from New Knoxville. I actually saw "possessed" people delivered. I "felt the love" and lived a little piece of stuff like from Elena Whiteside's book "The Way Living in Love." I've been healed there both miraculously physically and emotionally.
BUT. I went away from HQ and came back to find "the love" missing and spent the next eight years of my life trying to recapture it; like someone else mentioned earlier up the thread.
Objectively speaking. I have never believed that VP's whole body of teachings, his total spirituality, so to speak, EVER was to be considered as "Teaching The Word as it hadn't been taught for centuries." The most I EVER believed was that our thing before God, our (TWI's) place in the universe, our position as A ministry AMONG God's ministries, VPW's thing as A man of God AMONG many, many others; contemporary and through other times in history was this:
The great mystery.
To me, everything else he taught was of lesser importance to that one thing. There were and are plenty of ministries who teach everything VP taught. Few if any were and ARE actively trying to LIVE the GREAT MYSTERY as it seemed to me like WE were trying to do.
That great mystery, hid in God for generations, that, if the Prince of this world knew it, he would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. The riches of which, the result of which, is Christ IN you - - THE hope of glory.
THAT to me was "God's word as it hadn't been taught for centuries." The other stuff - - well.... the important thing was the mystery. Where could you go then (during the tenure of PFAL) where can you go now, what ministry, what church, what minister, what Bible class (even WAP and this "new" stuff current TWIglets speak of???) has the teacher repeating....
"Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ IN you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you.... Christ in you, Christ in you, Christ in you...." like that.
All that emphasis, all that drama, charisma, etc. THAT is what I bought into. Getting THAT word over the World is what I dedicated MY life to. I wanted to live the ONE BODY of Christ and be an example of that - - a living witness to the world of what life could be if we all lived with held fast to the idea that we were and are all family, God's family. Dysfunctions, warts smelly feet et. al.
To this day, even in the church I attend now, even though we have a lofty goal of "Being an example of what life would be like if lived out among a community of believers." (In Christ) I have NEVER heard one teaching that can hold a candle to that 20 minute section of PFAL on Christ in you." Never, not ONCE.
TWI obviously has lost the mystery. My theory on VPW's spirituality is that I believe he once WAS "tapped in" to God. He had his skeletons, his lusty desires as we ALL do. He gave in to them.
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rascal
In your summation of vp hcw, I think that you are probably right ...
Probably all the rest of us all DO have skeletons and demons....however, I wonder if that may be the differance between true spirituality and counterfit christianity.
The real folks overcome their shortcomings, the counterfit make excuses as to why they continue to indulge in, or else find ways to justify bad behavior.
After dealing with different alcoholics all of these years, I have to wonder how much of his downfall was bad judgement due to his excessive drinking.
Drunks are masters at being abusive sob`s and then blaming everyone else for their bad behavior.......they also make notoriously poor choices and then blame everyone else for their failures.....the ones I know tend to be extremely manipulative, not really giving a damn about anyone or anything else.
He may have been just a man with shortcomings, but what has branded him as a complete scounderal is that he masqueraded and won our trust and support as God`s representative.... presenting himself as a man of character and integrety....He then utilized God and scriptures to sanction theft, abuse and cruelty :-( That in my opinion puts him in a whole other camp than your average human with frailities and shortcomings.
It went beyond *giving in to lustiness* when he began Abusing those he was to nurture. I am thinking of a woman who wrote and told how he thoroughly destroyed her life at 17 .... a wow who was out there to move God`s word, who wanted to grow with God, but simply made the mistake of not complying with vp`s desires for sex on a motorcade visit. Within a couple of weeks she was declared posessed and thrown off of the wow field, destroying her credibility with all of her friends. Her Sister told me that when she inquired personally, vp further more looked this family member straight in the eye and lied, LIED warning them that the sister was posessed......breeding mistrust for decades....Her father wrote, saying that the tc`s even demanded that they not allow their OWN daughter to stay at their house 20 some odd years after the fact. He visciously did everything in his power to tear away EVERYTHING this girl had....
It takes a special kind of orneriness to deliberatly attempt to so utterly destroy a person utilizing your authority as a minister as your weapon....it is far worse than merely giving in to temptation now and then...it is dispicable.
It actions like this that discredit him as my brother who had shortcomings and just needs forgivness and understanding....and moves him squarely into the camp of evil wolf in sheeps clothing, false prophet, a predator that needs to be avoided, and his ability to hurt destroyed if possible to prevent further carnage.
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Sunesis
I think what also angers me about VP is that he went after teenagers - starting in Rye during the "groovy" christian era and never stopped.
I work with young people at work. Even though some of them are in the early 20s, from my aged viewpoint (when did this happen?), they are babies, little kids. They try so hard to please, do a good job, etc. For someone in a position of authority like VP was to prey on these young, naive, innocent kids (and most of them are naive) - is sickening. They're like little lambs making their way. To try and destroy a little 17 year old's life and estrange her from her family - if that's not a wolf, I don't know what is.
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HCW
After reading this stuff I feel like I have more to say on VPW. Please forgive me if it gets too long....
My experience in TWI had led me to really understand that Power corrupts . Period. I used to think of it like, "be careful because power can corrupt you if you let it."
Now I've altered that position to something like, "Power IS a corrupting influence on your life. If you do not take specific, continual and effective steps to counter the constantly corruptive aspects of having "power," it's influence it WILL consume you. Period. It is only a matter of time before you WILL lose yourself in the intoxicating influence of power."
My boys (5 & 8yrs old) ask me every night after I send them to the bathroom & bed,
"Daddy will you read us a Bible story? Please Daddy?" I always take the time and miss whatever is on TV or stop whatever work and just open the Old Testament and flip to a narrative on somebody & start reading. I read till they fall asleep, usually a few minutes. The other day I was reading about Saul, as Samuel scolded him
(1 Samuel 15) "... as you have rejected the Word of the Lord, the Lord has rejected you from being King."
Believe what you will about Vp, nobody can argue that he rejected the word of the Lord, at least specifically in terms of being faithful to "the wife of his youth."
I believe that whatever ministry VP had, he rejected the word of the Lord. I believe it "repented God that He had made" VP whatever he had and as VP continued along that path God rejected him. Without God, the TWI machine became an empty shell, power, corruption, "I gotta get Mine." took over to the the point where its been and continues.
I just don't see, Harry Wierwille, Ermal Owens, George Jess (the first WC Director) Milford & Betty Bowen and other OLD, Old timers like Grace Bliss; people prior to Jimmy Doop, etc. as being all of the negatives spouted about VP. I don't see them supporting him in anything but a meaningful, solid, Godly thing. THEY built TWI's foundations. THEY ran the cameras, published the flyers cooked the food, gave of more of their lives than most ANY of the rest of US ALL. They were & are salt of the earth people. They volunteered to work for TWI temporarily on a need basis. (Which has not become etched in stone as a "thou SHALT ONLY work for TWI on a need basis.) They REALLY knew VP. The knew what he was trying to do and volunteered of their time and resources to make TWI become a reality. They are who I saw when I first came to work at HQ. They are who I interviewed at length about what TWI was about. "What was happening in this (old black & white) picture? Who is that?"
They weren't so taken with VP that they worshipped him. They knew who and what VP was especially his BROTHERS Harry & Rueben.
I worked side by side with Milford Bowen for years, J. Fred & Ellie Wilson were great friends of mine. I lived & ate many, many meals with Ralph Dubovsky, when Vince Finnegan & others from the 3rd & 4th Way Corps came back in residence at HQ and lived right next door in TWI's trailer park. Back in the day when the units would shake, rattle & roll when the Ohio winds blew.
I lived at TWI headquarters when the BRC kitchen was always open and you could just go down there and rummage through the fridges for midnite snacks. Ralph was a regular... Jon Mahoney was always there getting something ready from something. When I moved to HQ, VPW's policy was that ALL of the resources of the ministry @ HQ were available to every believer, subject of course to the work of the ministry.
We helped build the OSC & Mrs. VPW furnished it by going to auctions and buying lots of kitchen cabinets from home builders who'd gone out of business. Way Builders made counter tops & I designed the layout for The graphics area of our Way Pub offices.
We ate together, played together, worked to clean up the woods on weekends and we had "household responsibilities" we who lived on grounds could sign up for in addition to our regular jobs, just like chores at home. I did tours and was a VIP driver for stuff like Ambassador One weekends or special Saturday night doo's. I also drove and did lighting for The Way Productions Dance Company. We would put shows together and travel in a van withing a one day radius from HQ., leave Friday night or Saturday morning, set up the venue for the performance, do the show Saturday night and then drive back home to HQ Sunday Am. I also ran camera for SNS on a rotating basis with a few other guys. After a while Joe Coulter taught me how to direct.
After we bought the airplanes (including Ambassador one), the motorcoaches, including VP's (People would get rides on the coach to places VP was going to teach. For example, he'd drop folks off along the way if he was passing through places they wanted to go.) The office quipment, printing presses, typewriters, photocopiers, cleaning supplies, food, even, rooms to stay in at the campuses, cars, fleet vehicles & other equipment, tools, everything was available for use for, theoretically, ANY believer who had use of them. The people who were in charge of whatever were charged to do their best to accomidate the need of ANY believer who requested use of "their" stuff.
A little prior to my arrival to live "at" HQ, TWI would pay the rent for staff people who decided they didn't want to live on grounds. Staff Orientation would include, "Just find a place you want to live in, make arrangementst to get it and tell us how much it costs. TWI used to rent so many apartments at a complex in St marys that we called it "Way Farm 4." TWI staffers had built a great reputation all over the surrounding areas as desired renters because VP had taught that believers should leave a place better than they found it.
I shot weddings on a very regular basis because believers were "always" wanting to get married at the BRC. Almost every Saturday morning, especially in the warmer months I took about an hour out of my day and went down to the BRC and shot complementary pictures of the believers getting married. I'd get them processed and put in press releases in the local papers - - weekly. Believers could write to me and request copies of the stuff I shot, free of charge.
More than a few believers flew all around the country on Ambassador One. You would call Flight Services and find out when the plane would be going where and get free airfare for vacations, business trips, etc. by scheduling your trip around what the plane was doing.
We even put together a skiing trip to Crested Butte, Colorado where we'd fly out on Amb1, stay at Camp Gunnison for $10.00/night (to cover housekeeping costs) and use fleet vehicles to shuttle us to the skiing area & back. All we had to do was schedule the trip at a time when the place was otherwise sitting around and convince the pilots to come & stay at the camp or ski for a weekend at some of the best skiing in the country! We planned to cover the fuel for the plane & our own expenses for the trip. The pilots were happy to fly folks places or even just give believers airplane rides because thay had to keep their hours up to remain certified.
We had maternity leave, "as long as you feel you need it." (My wife at the time took two years off when Jaz was born.) Mothers were encouraged to bring babies to work & put them in playpens in the office if they wanted to come back to work while they were little. Free childcare, etc. When you got married, your spouse was automatically given a job at HQ too (at first, if they wanted it). The perks of being at HQ made your actual money go further because there were "lots" of things we could get from TWI for free or extremely reduced rates that we'd otherwise have to pay a lot for.
These were the things that originally prompted them to start calling TWI the best corporation in the world. I was like, its pretty good, but nowhere near the BEST.
But, I felt pretty darn rich myself when I worked there (in a way, for a while). Like the time my septic system backed up & I contacted transportation & borrowed a big pump truck to pump it out. It was like going down to my garage & getting out my big truck. I got it stuck in my yard (I didn't realize that big heavy truck would become incredibly heavy truck after filling it and that my soft lawn would be REALLY soft for many days after a good rain
) I had to let it sit there for days then get a bigger tractor to tug on the big truck to ease it away from the leech field that was always softer than the rest of the lawn. Who knew that was where the stuff from the toilet went after a flush? 
I'm a city kid! My grass was ruined. I had to borrow a big roller to flatten out the huge grooves I made all the way around my house.
At any rate I think you can see that the TWI I lived in was worlds away from later twi II experiences. VP's policy was that anything that belonged to TWI belonged to any and every believer because it was their money that bought it. He said we were stewards of what God had provided us for the work of the ministry and anytime something wasn't being used for the ministry it should be available for the believers to use.
Of course he had things that were his, I had things that were mine too, like I wouldn't lend MY motorcycle any more than he'd lend his Harley. I did use the limos for dates though. I drove him and other VIP's in his Lincoln for special events & stuff too. I once hitched a ride on the Way Productions motorcoach to St. Louis to pick up a Datsun 280z I bought from a WC bro of mine.
BTW, VP didn't have many tricked out Harleys when he died. He had, like two. He had a white one that he'd had for a long time then we bought him "The Twig Hopper." That one was a retirement gift from the Staff of TWI, specifically the "Family Motorcycle Club" and we did, we tricked it out to the max. Sidecar, wireless helmet mounted intercom system custom chrome. We FMC members were motocycle enthusiasts and made sure the Twig Hopper had literally every cool thing you could put on a Harley at the time. We even built some completely custom stuff that wasn't available to be bought. Like we added extra lights to it make it safer at night then realized that motorcycle batteries wouldn't put out enough juice to keep the light bright. So they designed a belt driven generator that the wheels rolling would power it to produce the additional electricity to run all of the custom electrical.
We also used The Twig Hopper as an outreach tool. We took it all around the country competing in (and winning most) custom motorcycle shows and placed it in a lot of display at malls, etc. We would witness to people who showed some interest. At one time it was considered one of the top Dress Harleys in the Country. It was VP's but we used it more than he did. Wonder what happened to it. About the only thing that VP had tha was off limits was his Lincoln.
The silver Lincoln was a gift from one of the large groups of WOW's. They all pitched in to buy it for him for his birthday or something, I don't remember the occasion. He had wanted one like that for many years and he loved that thing. If I remember correctly the WOW raised almost enough $$ to buy it and the WOW dept. kicked in the rest from their budget. That was the only vehicle in TWI's fleet that was never available for use unless VP was in it. There were only about three of us guys who were allowed to even drive it. Chris Geer, a copule of guys who drove the motorcoaches, one other guy & me is all I knew of. VP was very particular, as you know.
VP wasn't the only one living a privileged experience in TWI. I was in many ways a rank & file staffer. TWI made a lot of stuff available to staffers, I just utilized things the ministry made available. I also worked to make things available for others. Like babysitting people's kids when I was single. I watched Howard Allen's kids when they were little & remember telling Vince Finnegan's kid who was being an "executive brat" on more than one occasion, "I don't care WHO yo Daddy is, HE told ME that if you don't do what I say I should tell HIM on YOU !
That was a part of the TWI I lived in. This stuff fits with this thread in that it was policies HE developed and inforced in the same vehement manner an has been shared concerning his abuse of people. I've seen him ream people for being stupidly wasteful of ministry resources. "That thing is not YOUR'S! The BELIEVERS own this place! WIPE your FEET when you come in from the MUD!"
This contributes, I think, to a discussion on VPW's spirituality. I'm not waxing nostalgic or offering apologies for VP's negative behavior. This stuff is just as factual as the bad stuff.
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rascal
Amen sunesis....the most vulnerable.... Factor in kids that have been abused and neglected, youngsters whom turned to you in hope....deeply yerning for the answeres that you claim to provide in their troubled unstable lives...it is criminal and makes my blood boil..
Maybe this is so very personal because my sweet daughter is within a month or two of being the same age as that girl....She too is naieve and trusting....deeply sensative ... I understand the earnestness of wanting to do a good job and overwhelming need to be well thought of....the willingness to please.
For vp and lcm....sex was no biggie, they did it all the time....for a youngster to be bullied into it and then discarded is devastating. To be ostracized for non compliance..... crushing.
To carry it to the extreme of drugging the unsuspecting victim....and then have them spend the rest of their lives disgusted with themselves....unable to understand why they were weak...unconscionable.
To prey on the vulnerability of a naieve teenager, to manipulate them through their fears, their deep desire to please and be accepted..... really really falls way beyond the pail of *shortcomings* It is downright destuctive and evil.
These actions leave scars that may never heal.
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rascal
Hcw, no doubt the people that you mentioned WERE decent..... it is their decency and character that disarmed folks` suspicions.
I`ll gaurantee that they were not aware of vp`s shenanigans, or they wouldn`t have supported him.
I think THAT is the secret to vp`s success, he utilized other folk`s ministries ....their good names and characters...their reputations of success... it was their love and decency we saw and were drawn to.
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HCW
You know Rascal, I wonder too, how much the drinking had to do with stuff concerning his downfall.
It was a real blow to me the first time I saw VPW drunk. He lost a LOT of my respect that day. In my mind I moved him over a category into "VERY fallable." I think that may have contributed for me to not be more hurt by him. I expected less of him from that moment on.
That helped me to stand up to him because I just didn't feel that a man who felt the necessity to drink into drunkenness in his position wasn't any "better" than me. I actually saw him as lesser than me from that point.
What you said contributes to my thinking that HE turned away from God. I have to admit seeing a huge spot of hypocracy in him as one of the guys on the cross said of Jesus, "He's said so much about saving others, why can't he save himself?"
Not comparing VP to Jesus.
Yes Sunesis. It also angers me that he went after teenagers. He rationalized so much SO wrongly. We teens may have been jumping in and out of bed with each other having sex like rabbits, but HE wasn't US. He had that singular position as LEADER. Spiritual leader makes it all the worse. It was wrong if the teens were doing it, worse when he did it to them.
I have a really great friend who was one of the "Groovy Chistians" at Rye. She never spoke in worshipful manner concerning VP... I wonder why?
Again I agree with you. I did a stint teaching in a college. Some of my students were well into adulthood in their 20's. There is an unwritten, sacred trust that goes with leading younger people that is evident the moment you walk in to the situation; it screams, "Take GOOD care of me!." I, and some of the other male instructors would often comment about the constant temptation even if the girls DON'T come on to you. Some do, OVERTLY, some do, unconsciously, some seem to "come on to you" even when it is the last thing on their minds. I totally agree with administration who say it is a matter of character. A line you can NEVER even THINK about crossing. One step across the line was a cause for termination.
VP. for some reason had his own boundary issues where he couldn't, or at least we know didn't adhere to the most obvious of boundaries. There is a line of thinking that calls for adults (in this case women) to take personal responsibility for their level of culpability for their involvement in situations like these. I have re-thought my personal position to what I feel is a very simple, point blank place.
When you are technically the "responsible party" YOU are responsible, totally, for what happens between you and a subordinate.
I expanded that logic into dealing with my teenage daughter after we had a really bad argument where she was quite frankly out of her teen-aged mind. I felt horrible after and decided that since I'm the Dad, I was responsible for the argument even though I wasn't responsible for what she said. We have had several disagreements since, but no more arguments because I REFUSE to argue. I think that won more respect from her and I can now "talk her down" out of the same "trees" we once would argue in. She's still just as insane. I just better understand that there are certain things that cause her to lose her mind and I take responsibility for avoiding them FOR her in the event we disagree.
I do that because I LOVE my children. Our sister excie will attest that VPW did NOT love her, no matter what he said.
Concerning VPW's spirituality? He did NOT love US. I think he was damaged, lacking the capability to love truly with the love of God, in the renewed mind in manifestation that he spoke so often of.
Again a simple line of thinking, If he did love us, he WOULD have LOVED us.
He may have wanted to, but he didn't.
I think it ironic that it was though his ministry that we learned, some of us learned OF the love of God from "him." Some learned more about love through his words. Now we, after his death discuss how HE was incapable of loving with the love he taught about.
Mor of the irony is that his own repeated actions kept him from recieving the healing he needed from God.
Its been a kind difficult pill to swallow, the truth about "ol' VP." When you look at him in totality there is no choice but to swallow the more sallow aspects of his character, it changes the flavor of whatever sweetness is in the mix.
Doesn't it?
I firmly believe there ARE some black & white issues - - there are some absolute truths that we have no choice but to adhere to. In my life now I'm learning more and more what some of them are.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
thanks for these enlightining post all and by the way i will not be delgating any of my sins to anyone...enjoy them too much!
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HCW
Yup rascal. I'm thinking some of the shenanigans started(?) later down the road like the late sixties, early 70's when the influx of young folk hit.
Yes, the ministries of other people. That's why I never speak of him as THE man of God for our time. A bit grandiose for my thinking. I could never "chapter & verse" it that ANYone was EVER called THE man of God in the Bible.
Hmmmm......... If you ever heard Grace Bliss "pshaw!" at the mention of Vp being called THE MOG... Grace was a true woman of God. SHe was living proof of what Proverbs says about God lengthening your days. I remember her in the 80's in HER 80's. She knew some stuff & had a REAL connection with God. She just run around doing great things for people. She just "Knew stuff." It was incredible. She had a REAL ministry.
There were lots of folks around who undeniably had real ministries. The conglomerate of them/us all was the TWI we knew and loved. VP was only a part of it. For a lot of people he wasn't even the biggest part. George Jess never "went Corps," He WAS The Way Corps. He actually personified WC goals in the way he lived. He had NO desire to prove anything to anyone, he just did what he did & it got done. Ermal Owens was so humble that in about a year I don't remember him saying more than a sentance or two.
That first year @ HQ we were surrounded by so many impressive people who got SO much done with SO little. If you paid any attention to them you couldn't help but want to help. It added a LOT of credence to VPW. Their ministries were certainly worth buiding on and fighting for and saving. Walter Cummins just seemed to know the WHOLE darn Bible. Greek, hebrew, syriac, you name it. It was like he had the whole Bible on the tip of his tongue. He's the genuine real deal Bible scholar dude.
Knowing them and being around them kinda made it worth being there. TWI at its best was like a puzzle with VPW only being one piece of it. I'm thinking that's kinda why some of us older -timers are a little shocked at the concept of throwing away you whole twi experience because of VP's indescretions. Vp was only a part of my TWI experience.
He had little to do with the "Word in Fine Arts" stuff I was into. Beth Lowder, John & Meg Kish and others of us did some really ground-breaking bilbical research on artsy fartsy type stuff. Things like the significance of color in the Bible and Biblical documentation of the effect of color on people. We even came up with a pallete of colors for this theory on color-music harmony. Some of the ministry fine artists did some experimental paintings utilizing "color chords" that correspond with musical chords. The theory is that a painting in the colors corresponding with, say, a 'C' chord will "look" like the chord sounds.
You may remember the paintings in the lunchroom at Emporia? Remember the swans? The formation was a group of notes that would play a little riff. I did a few illustrations in different chords to see if the mood of the chord would be reflected in the painting; stuff like that VP was really not involved with.
He had set some things in motion then we picked up the ball & ran with it.
I don't know that Vp overtly used other people ministries so he could hide out & get nookie. He certainly took advantage of and created his own opportunities though.
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HCW
Ok.
This is the last one....
Many may feel that (overly simplified version) LCM came along and "ruined" the good ol' days of TWI. I don't. Craig was up front, he certainly contributed, but my theory is that it was a fractured relationship between DON Wierwille and VP that led to the downfall.
Dysfunctional elements in his own nuclear family effected VP negatively. The thing with Don was major. VP was very hurt when Don REFUSED for years to work at HQ.
Daughter Karen didn't go WOW or WC & moved away to a normal life with husband & family. Sara & JP WOULDN'T go corps for the LONGEST time. They HATED how "everyone" assumed they would "walk on water" and be so "spiritually great" because they were VP's children.
My job put me in proximity and I became a friend of the family and got tho know them all well enough to know there was a LOT to their private family relationships that "nobody" knew.
The information is "out there" and can be put together to show that VP, who was always, admittedly, a loose cannon DID, "middle finger" the NK community with his education and desire NOT to follow tradition and work the family farm. There are things you "just don't do" in New Knoxville and deeding your family farm over to a world renouned cult, bringing in all those outsiders is chief among them. Not to mention the other stuff like riding through town on the seat of your motorcycle and posting your argument on the door of "the big church" in town as being "completely unheard of."
I can see him retreating into the trappings and lacivious "perks" of power & position for some sort of relief, maybe even comfort. He was devastated by his brother Harry's death. He often referred to "Uncle Harry" as his conscious. He was really unprepared to lose him and was in many ways "lost" without Harry. The old folks knew that Harry was the only person in the world who could "control" VP. VP knew he was extremely high strung a classic, extreme A1- Type 1 wild-foot entreprenuerial personality prone to getting "crazy ideas."
He wanted and needed people around him who would stand up to him and tell him "NO. We can't do THAT." After Harry died few people would. I know in my relationship with him there were more than a few times he'd tell me about ideas he wanted to do and I'd just shake my head with bulging eyes, like "Noooo..... we can't do thaaaat..." Lots of people couldn't and didn't want to handle his high strung outbursts.
He'd give you a really terse, "Well WHY NOT!" when you'd tell him no. Lots of folks thought he was trying to intimidate with his countenance when he challenged your ideas. I wasn't intimidated and told him more than once, "... because it just WON'T work." Or I'd say, "... because that outfit looks crazy on you!"
He'd hesitate for a very uncomfortable, eternally long, second or two and then slap his thigh, the table, clap his hands once & shake them with that goofy hand thing he'd do. Then laugh. He got a kick out of people who were confident enough in what they did to not allow him to steamroller them.
He also rolled over more than a few people because he was more high strung than considerate. In certain situations he could be VERY impatient. There were more than a few situations where I had to really grab my kehones and go face to face with him. He HATED it if I would back down from my ideas.
"You're the professional, YOU tell ME what to do, don't ask me how to do what YOU do." ...is one of the major things I took from my relationship with him. I also learned from him how to manage "upwards" and "manage my managers."
Don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing VP, just in some ways, explaning him. I did know him. I did work with him on many projects through the years. I count him among those who mentored me and some of the things he taught me are extremely valuable to me and make up strong pieces of who I am. I don't agree with MUCH of what he did - - although I can sorta see maybe why he did it.
I've always felt that during the P.O.P. time it wasn't totally like the then current TRUSTEES who had turned away from God; as in THEY did but HE didn't. I felt it was more like He turned, they turned the rest of the way and now HE was trying to get THEM to turn back cause he saw how much HE had F'd up (like literally).
So. In conclusion. My theory on VPW is that he didn't sit down at his desk & say... "Hmmm... let me see, I wanna be rich & powerful... what can I do...??? OK. I'll start a cult! I can fake some credentials, rip off some materials, put together some bogus class materials and attract bunches of young hot chicks to have sex with me. Yeah that'll work! I can SCAM th WHOLE world!"
I think it was more like along the way to a genuine goal of moving God's word over the world he ran into some, perhaps anticipated stuff. And he felt, "Hmmm.... I can get away with this."
I just see a lot of the stuff above as highly incongrous with the evil, let's take over the world mentality. "I'll make things SEEM really good when they're not, so I can keep people around & attract more people (as in hot chicks [or even luke warm ones]) to have sex with and live off their money." That just doesn't fit for me.
Sorry this is so long but it makes references that cover at least 40, maybe 50 years. Hope this perspective helps.
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Sunesis
Excellent posts HCW - I enjoy reading them. You have an even, balanced perspective.
I was just thinking, and I will have to read up more, that we (most of us in TWI) got in the Word during the "Jesus Freak" movement of the late '60s, early '70s. During those times of anger, rage, constant bombings, etc., millions of us came to Christ - the peace amongst a society seemingly falling apart.
I wonder how many, what I shall call "wolves" were attracted to this, saw an opening, and took it. I think some of the biggest leaders, when you think about them, were predators (Children of God, TWI, a few others).
HCW, I really liked what you said when you said teens and young people do have sex, but with each other. VP was not one of US. That is so true. There's quite a difference between being with someone your own age and someone twice to more than half your age. I have a 16 year old neice, to think of a fifty-something VP pulling his act on her - he wouldn't have lasted long, jail is where he would be.
But, also, back then, as Jesus came to the down and outers, TWI attracted so many, down and out, throw away kids, who would have believed them?
I believe the late '60s early '70s was a true evangelistic revival and movement of God which I feel fortunate to have lived through. I think it attracted the wolves and they fed off the flock.
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WeWereScammed
Now why would a guy who worked the Word "hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year", a guy to whom God spoke audibly, a guy who had a miraculous snowstorm performed by the creator of the heavens and the earth, a guy who was apparently the only man on the planet that would listen to God...
why would this guy want to "get away " with something?
Wasn't God's grace sufficient?
I think he SCAMMED even himself.
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rascal
Sunesis, I was one of those throw away kids....people tried to warn me....sigh but I just wanted so desperatly for it to be right and good, a noble force for good in the universe...
I wanted to be a part of the spiritual battle, giving my all in order to help God dispel darkness...make a differance in the world....
To find out that this earnest youthfull desire, the unselfish giving of our lives and resources... was simply utilized to sate the bellies and lusts of the wicked just burns me up....
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rascal
Maybe you are right hcw, maybe he didn`t start out to take over the world...maybe his desire was genuine....
What I see though is that he was so involved in the mechanics, I dare even say works of achieving the spirituality that he saw and admired in others....that he never really did quite achieve that walk of the spirit.
All of his studying, all of his searching, all of his prayers did not help him to become *of the spirit* they were just the mechanics he utilized to convince himself that he had discovered the right way....
His actions, his arrogance, still placed him squarely in the camp of *of the flesh*
Even the stories you tell of how carefull he was of the *things* that the peoples abs had purchased, but yet on the other hand be so calloused, at times even visciously destructive with the dear souls that were placed in his care....leads me to think that it might not ever have been genuine with him.
(Thus the speculation of false prophet...even in spite of his best efforts)
He took damn good care of things, but yet was able to visciously use people without compunction untill their usefullness was exhausted...this causes me to believe that he didn`t quite understand God or spiritual priorities....ie love God love your neighbor...
Hcw, I gotta ask you, honestly...as screwed up and mean as Chris G was....as much as he completely bought into EVERY bit of vp`s doctrine....as dark as the sins of his soul are....do you really think that what he presented to the bot`s could have been spiritually healthy?
I am wondering because otherwise, your explanation is quite plausible...it would be nice to think that vp changed in the end.
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ex10
Yeah, Sunesis, I feel the same way. I was not a throwaway kid, however, just a searching one.
And here we are, decades later trying to make sense of it all. I hope I can salvage the good, yet recognize the evil for what it was. Tis a fine line we walk with our past, which so affects our today.
:)-->
Rascal, I've been on the planet long enough to know that there are no easy answers to anything. I feel like we have to sort things out for ourselves, so we can keep on keeping on, ya know? Thank goodness we have a place here where we can do that.
-->
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rascal
You bet ex 10 and such wonderfull folks`s company to enjoy while we put the various pieces together....
Each of us have pieces to add to this huge puzzle... sometimes the pieces other folks have to offer don`t appear to fit from the angle I view it.......but as we examine them, maybe turn them a little this way or that, or apply them to a different section...I find that they do indeed fit, and give us an ever growing clearer view of the whole picture.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Thanks HCW~~~
Never really thought that type of simpleton simplicity, but sure seems that's what happened over/during the long run.
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excathedra
my thoughts-
when a man in his 50's counsels a girl from around age 18 to 23 and listens to her pain / heartache about being abused
and then finally serves her drinks on a long bus ride
to accomplish his goal
it's not just getting caught up with trappings of power / privilege
be honest if you think otherwise
and explain it to me
happy father-in-the-word day
;)-->
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excathedra
oh yeah, i certainly was not a throw-away kid (although abused) and i was searching.... very much so....
for love, for a dad.... etc.
but i didn't come from the gutter and even if i had so what ?
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sirguessalot
hi all
didnt mean to bail on the thread i started, but life sure does sweep one away at times
besides, just reading thru, im amazed at the variety and wisdom in the all the reactions and contributions
im not sure how to respond to the many many directions
but thanks for chiming in...
plz dont let me kill the thread
to patch a few holes, perhaps...
*i mentioned how those early years of many sleepless nights and grape-fasting was probably responsible his most prominant spiritual peak/peek,
and then how most everything after that was somehow less-than or way-less-than that peak. this initial point seems to have been largely missed so far
fasting, like meditation, or intense prayer, as with the contemplative christian traditions, provide a ways and means to move yourself outside of time, outside of body, ourside of ego, by somehow moving physiologically and psychologically closer to death, or radical formless consciousness, or whatever you wanna call it.
and so, to say that VP had a peak experience, or altered state, is not to say that he somehow earned it by wit or virtue or any other such thing.
he basically tripped over it during his suffering. he got lucky.
so what? he had a few "good" years in his youth (pre-pfal, pre-twi)
other things that cause such spikes...almost dying, life-changing illness, drugs, fame, starvation, incredible books, giving birth, losing a family member, getting hit over the head with a shovel...not much to brag about
but then VP descended back into the old world he was born and raised, that of patriarchy, mythic fundamentalism, and a blossoming new hollywood rock star christianity
and then he developed a crude and sloppy imitation of the many perennial philosophies he briefly glimpsed, probably hoping to do good (deep down inside himself, hidden most of the time)
*such spikes come in waves to generations...like wind blowing arcoss the face of a field. only touching the highest blades of grass.
vp was small time player off in the corner of the field...a medium blade, maybe
a time when the printing and distribution of concordances and lexicons and made so many mc-preachers feel like they had the "secret codes" to the "most sacred book." post WW2 earth saw many such unprecedented things.
i would even go as far as to call him a "sorcerer" to use the biblical term. he bewitched others with the spells he learned from his "peak" for personal gain (rather than using his peak for greater good), some of which speels he himself was partially under (his moments outside of himself taught him a few of these things...but to maintain a semblance of this state, he needed booze, sex, cigs, glory fame of an old-fashioned sermon preacher, etc...)
it just happens that VP an ambitious narcissist type who got a glimpse of "the deep" in certain years of his youth, which is a natural time in a man's life to trip over such things
his work and processes (which he taight LCM) were crude, sloppy, lazy, full of holes and errors and blatant copy-cats. but there is a trace of that "glimpse" in his work, and the magnitude of his (and our) "splash" on the collective soul was perhaps not small but more like medium.
there is no doubt in my mind, that PFAL (and ilk) have replicated like a program thru-out modern evangelical christianity
damn spikes cause all sorts of problems to solve
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Sir G,
I think you tripping all over the place dude.
VP was the worst garage band I ever heard that made WOW status~~~
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excathedra
with love and respect, how do you know he ever had a peak experience to begin with ?
((((((((todd)))))))
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sirguessalot
i don't know, e. its just a theory. an educated guess. based on a lot of reading and experiences and thinking.
and we all experience peaks like this, when time and self ceases. when our perspective shifts momentarily.
nothing special, really. which is one of my main points
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excathedra
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