But these experiences were only spikes in VPs awareness of things, not permanent spiritual traits or any sort of developed habits (which spikes more or less graciously dropped from the sky onto his head).
Because he seemed to lack the will, heart, discipline, integrity, and knowledge to maintain that level of spiritual clarity.
Although he also seemed to have experienced a haphazard series of small peaks and peeks throughout his later years as well...especially as he neared his mortal death.
And these experiences, being mere peeks at universal truths and not the steady plateau of what might come from a disciplined one, all that VP heard and saw in those days was then expressed and practiced solely through the limitations of his old natural filters, or those lower states of being he was most comfortable with...namely, his old ways of selfishness, pridefulness, rashness, legalism, exclusivity, racism, controlling, lustfulness, materialism, etc...
And he also interpreted his peak in the only cultural language he knew....the language of a midwestern German-American Christian farmboy/preacher (which in his earthly pride, he seemed to think was somehow superior to all else)
Which also seems far, far from the universal language-set of Christ, and more like a sub-sub-sub-district of our modern Babylonian religious linguistic confusions
All of his momentary spiritual experience was crammed thru these old filters, still clogged and encrusted with his earthly fears and taboos and shadows
And none if it was very new to the world, but simply new to him (which is perhaps why he claimed it was such a monumental uncovering of first century truths). Big difference, yet, another layer of his limited thinking projected onto his genuine spiritual experience.
And so once VP left off of his fasting and praying and other spiritual struggles and sufferings, and returned to fattening himself up like an old patriarch/pharoah, he could not see anything new of significance. Only little puffs of phenomenon here and there for him to brag about, all the while bemoaning the lack of vision he once held briefly, and that “man he knew to be†(whenever he found a window of honesty again).
Which is why, however crude and sloppy the written and spoken expressions of his spikes were, there are obviously some truths to be found in PFAL and VPW’s words. And so it should come as no surprise, that if one examines his works long and hard enough, they might even see beyond those institutions he set up, and perhaps even see more of that template he originally snuck a few glimpses at.
But its like refining a ton of ore to get a only sliver of gold. Sure, its gold, but there are many far richer veins in the vast mountain of God.
And that VP could not maintain that spiritual peak of his “glory days,†reflects strongly in his works. As with his own personal limitations, his doctrines provide no substantial “praxis†or injunction to enter the states he claimed and once experienced, though he genuinely knew they were available. His works seem to teach us to struggle and beg like he himself was, still trying to get things, from that book, and from a distant God. And so he could not provide a demonstration or evidence of much of what he said was true, because he probably did not understand how he once got there in the first place. All he could seem to do was provide yet more mythic translations and feeble models to explain his hit-and-miss experiences.
I would even go as far as to say that LCM had his own authentic peaks and spikes as well, and also without a way to maintain the plateau long enough to unravel them any further. And so likewise had a subsequent falling back, and then expression of his own series of genuine spiritual experiences through an old clogged filter
Both of them, like horny kids on Porky’s, desperately and briefly peeking thru a tiny window at something genuinely wonderful. Its just that the nature and form and manner of their seeing was incomplete (i.e. sinful).
So I no longer condemn either of these men for what happened to them and us. It was only natural, it seems. And I hope these theories might help us to see why there is such a diverse blend of reactions to "it" all, and why all them can be honored as having some sense of validity (yes, even Mike's, imo).
Yes why couldn't he see these spikes for what they were. You presented a lot of possible explanations. Which I believe are valid.
A total villain is not how I picture this person. Mislead by his own reasoning and further lead by his own problems. Rather then being lead by the Lord. Lack of patience possibly...
Lost some of the basics-like God is Love, no respector of persons. What He can do for one He can do for others.
There was and is no one "leader" of every person who is born again. This somehow escaped his attention through lack of understanding possibly. Paul lead because it was his Gospel that the Lord revealed to him. The Lord Jesus Christ is the leader and head.
We are to be brothers to Jesus Christ which makes us like him. The mind of Christ is not fictional imo.
Sirguessalot's theory of spikes is as good an attempt at understanding Wierwille's "spirituality" as many. Ex10 contributes the viewpoint of one who actually knew him more personally than a lot of us did. Like she said, "paradoxes".
Here is my current take on Wierwille. He did and taught some good things, he did and taught some bad things, because there were both good and bad thoughts and intents in his heart. His problem (a problem not limited to just him) was that he couldn't tell the difference.
quote:
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things because whatever comes out of a person's own heart seems right to that person, whether it really is right or not.
quote:
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.
Proverbs 21:2
If I can't tell the difference between what is right and what is not in my own heart, what am I to do?
quote:
For the word of God is quick [living], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner [critic] of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
If everything that comes out of my own heart seems right to me, then what could possibly motivate me to submit what seems so right to the critque of ANYBODY, much less to the critique of God's Living Word?
How about the FEAR of the Lord? Not the mindless fear of being hit by a lightning bolt or being chucked into Hell for some senseless, petty infringement, but respect for the truth that God knows more than I do, and I need to bring the thoughts and intents of my heart into alignment with His, not the other way around.
What happens when a person doesn't fear God?
quote:
1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes.
2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself
too much to detect or hate his sin.
3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful;
he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
4 Even on his bed he plots evil; he commits himself to a shameful course
and does not reject what is wrong.
Psalm 36:1-4
Some people compare Wierwille's sinfulness with David's and ask what's the difference? I believe David feared God and changed. Wierwille NEVER taught a genuine fear of God, because he said fear was always wrong. I don't have any evidence that Wierwille feared God at the end, or that he changed.
A subtle problem arising from involvement with TWI is that Wierwille taught us NOT to fear God. It's a difficulty whose consequences in my own life I am only now beginning to recognize. It is a major problem with all of the offshoots, including the current TWI itself.
Makes a good point even Dr. Wierwille would agree. I would refer you to The Bible Tells Me So Chapter 6 The Counsel of the Lord pg 52
Quote:The question we must continue to ask ourselves
day by day is: Does our walk glorify God? This is the
one and only test we may apply. This test tells us
whether our walk is under the direction of the Lord
or whether we are simply acting by our self-centered
senses, diverted from God’s Spirit by another spirit.
The church in Corinth was specifically warned against
“another spirit,†namely, a different spirit which they
had not received according to II Corinthians 11:4.
This tells us that there is specifically another spirit
who is at work to misdirect and to deceive. This spirit
from Satan would try to control and deceive us
today, even as II Corinthians 11:3 says, “... as the
serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty.â€
When we are under the influence of “another
spirit,†we can be ever so “religious†while totally out
of alignment and harmony with God. One spirit is
from the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The other spirit is from the god of this world, who is
the devil.
So does that mean one screw up and your done for or is it two or seventy times seventy? My opinion and I stress those words. I think God looks upon each act each moment we can live for him or not and we will be judged as such. At the end of the day we must ask Does our walk glorify God? The next is a new day we will do better than the day before...
The way I see VP. Is a man that worked hard to make twi what it was in the early 80's. A love of money first and foremost. Everything else came after that. Yes I believe he could charm a snake and people remember that about him. That is fine. I also think he was mean as a snake. For some reason I feel he cared very little about people way down inside. We know he raped women (I wonder what they think about him and his kind ways?). I can say what I have read here and heard over the past. People died because of vp.
He was a man that could "Preach" what he wanted us to do but could never live up to his own standards that he wanted us to live up to. I would dare say anyone that was serious about twi and what was taught lived a better life according to twi's standards than he even dreamed of.
vp was the man. We were suppose to hang on every word he said and live it. Something he fell so short of.
To live the words of the bible to your life and never sin against it I believe is next to impossible (Things happen). I have never seen anyone come close. vp taught us in PFAL not to take one part of the bible and live it because we "liked it" and disregard another part because we did not "like it". He lived his life exactly oppisite of what he taught. He was spirtual all right from down below very spiritual. JMHO
Great point Dove, though I am lmao at the incongruity of you managing to line me up to be in agreement with a person with whom I have such utter and complete contempt.....BRILLIANT!!!
I enjoyed reading your interpretation very much of vps life and works. I'm still trying to figure out if you're hindu, buddist, souphie (i know that's the wrong spelling), because some of the things you're saying sound familiar, just can't place them.
The part about not to keep paying him/them with our scorn seems valid enough. Throwing away those old boxes of offenses in our house makes it smell a lot better and eases up some or lots of that old pain caused by the wounds.
I suppose we all throw them out when we get ready, in our own time, if you will.
Good subject. It's always challenging to forget about it and then not get taken in again by the same sort, as rascal pointed out, as many have in twi offshoots.
We actually have now had to disassociate ourselves with some ex-twi "ministers" who proclaimed to do everthing differently in their group, but in reality, when they had a church, they lost it because they went to Golden Correll every Sunday after church, with a few select "spiritual ones" and discussed the flock and named all the demons they thought they had.
Just still doing the same 'ole way thing over and over again--hadn't changed a bit. Apparently they were impressed because wierwille's ways stuck with them.
My suspicion is that there were times in his life when Wierwille really felt he had something important to offer. I can't imagine that ALL the time he spent in studying and presenting teachings on the Bible was nothing more than a ploy to make himself rich, fat and sexually gratified.
Unfortunately, the rich, fat and sexually gratified was a part of his motivation, and he let it get the best of him to the extent of overshadowing anything else in his legacy, especially to the extent that he distorted doctrine to serve his wealth and lust.
Raf I could agree with you. I don't really know his pre twi days but if what I have read here it is true. If it is true I stand by (The love of money) theroy.
quote:My suspicion is that there were times in his life when Wierwille really felt he had something important to offer. I can't imagine that ALL the time he spent in studying and presenting teachings on the Bible was nothing more than a ploy to make himself rich, fat and sexually gratified.
EXACTLY!!! Let's see. 1942 - Vesper chimes. 1953 - PFAL. 1961 - Moved to HQ. 1967 - Filmed PFAL. 25 years is a long time to wait for an egg to hatch.
Wierwillian spikes? He was strongly suspected of spiking drinks.
Did Wierwille ever mention revelatory visions? He talked about a literal snowstorm at a filling station in July, but that's not exactly tripping through fields of ambrosia like John the Revelator.
He described "revelation" during a class, again pretty prosaic stuff.
"I gots a pain in ma ovary! But nuts, I don't have ovaries, so it must be revelation from Big Daddy, or the hernia's acting up. If it's revelation I get to feel up... er, lay hands on this wonderful woman of Gawd. Something's just come up honey, and it's available if you're able to receive it, a 'spike' from on high might be in your future. I'll even show you, uh, what to do with it, praise the lord, once you've gawt it."
Your "spike" hypothesis is a stretch only because I'm unaware of any time Wierwille spoke of such an experience. He was inclined to describe lots of other experiences, so why not this kind? I wouldn't be surprised if your scenario had played out in some other cult. But it doesn't fit my limited but probably adequate knowledge of Wierwille's personality and behavior.
I think his driving ambition was ego-related, pure and simple. Not sporadic spikes of spirituality. He always loved an audience. He clearly loved being a celebrity. It provided him with instant dignity in his community. It provided opportunities to meet and seduce women in his congregation, for some of whom the looks, personality and position were an attractive combination.
Wierwille had talents for sales and motivation, and he was hungry. His appetites were progressive and addictive, in that they required more and more to be satisfied.
Wierwille, in my estimation, was never the real McCoy, even for a moment. Evidence? How ridiculous is his snowstorm in July "revelation?" What kind of a mind cooks up a story that lame? It wasn't the invention of someone skirting the borders of Heaven. It was the daydream of a con-artist with the spirituality of a gas pump.
Wierwille was always a pretender, a fraud, a poser relying on the techniques of a professional salesman. Sure, he had abilities. He had personality. He used it all. Even the sex was probably not an end in itself. Each woman was at most a pathetic conquest, because he eventually relied not upon his charm or his masculinity to win her, but upon his authority and "right" to have her - and he may have spiked her drink too. It hardly dignified his withered little ego, just as the rest of TWI's dog and pony show was designed to do. But it was better than a kick in the head, I suppose.
The whole damned ministry set about making Vic feel good about himself, and if we succeeded, maybe he'd share something really special about God in return. Weren't we suckers?
As I said, I don't doubt people have such revelatory experiences, and it may even get them in some trouble. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." More often, I think it would help "center" the person, make him or her more circumspect, a wiser and more compassionate person than before.
In Wierwille's case, had such an experience ever occurred to him, he'd have quickly forgotten about it. It didn't fit with his "filling station" concept of the Kingdom of Heaven and salvation (a good analogy for running people through PFAL to "be filled with the holy spirit," in a naturally warm environment that turned inexplicably, if not miraculously, cold).
Wierwille, in my estimation, was never the real McCoy, even for a moment. Evidence? How ridiculous is his snowstorm in July "revelation?" What kind of a mind cooks up a story that lame? It wasn't the invention of someone skirting the borders of Heaven. It was the daydream of a con-artist with the spirituality of a gas pump.
lol! That wouldn't happen to be the year in which the marketing pitch, "Christmas in July" first appeared?
I still like to imagine his experience as a bona-fide miracle. It was an unemployed "elemental" angel of judaism landed and perched atop of his dental-garage, gas station office..., that shook a box of soap suds over his window.
quote:My suspicion is that there were times in his life when Wierwille really felt he had something important to offer. I can't imagine that ALL the time he spent in studying and presenting teachings on the Bible was nothing more than a ploy to make himself rich, fat and sexually gratified.
EXACTLY!!! Let's see. 1942 - Vesper chimes. 1953 - PFAL. 1961 - Moved to HQ. 1967 - Filmed PFAL. 25 years is a long time to wait for an egg to hatch.
Woah!?!?!
I stand by what I said, but not how you applied it. If I'm not allowed to use his abuses to taint his ministry, then neither am I allowed to use his ministry to sugarcoat his abuses.
Wierwille was THEE man of Gawd for the whole freaking world, just as I am the fifth Beatle...the question that I would pose is...was he even a legitimate Christian clergyman?
When the "adults" of his own congregation gave him the heave ho, he decided to prey on youngsters who were naive and idealistic. He built his cult by recruiting kids whose brains were half fried from taking too much acid and had already rejected the "established order" of the church...why?...because mainstream Christianity saw through him like a cheap suit. I know there are exceptions to this...but overall, that was his MO. He always showed special affection towards anyone from the mainstream of Christianity that was stupid enough to fall for his scam (ie: Ross T. and others).
I think satori nailed it when he spoke of Veepee's ego. It was always about him...his so-called concern for others was simply another way to draw attention to himself...that's why Christ was declared AWOL...so that the mighty manofgawd could step into that position himself. Nobody likes to think that they wasted years and years of their life following a con man...maybe that's why some folks try to rationalize that he "wasn't so bad afterall"...
...And yes, I knew the man personally for years...I experienced his "love" and "leadership" and heard him teach countless times...and that's WHY I have such a low opinion of him. HE LIED IN GOD's NAME!...I'll make no excuses for him.
Not much to add to Satori's analysis, except to say that, as hucksters go, Wierwille was hardly unique. Gawd, we've got a million of 'em.
Hitler, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Mussolini, and a few others are probably the most infamous of the breed in recent history, but there's loads of lessers that fit the mold. Take a look at any of the pyramid scheme MLMs around. They've all got a Wierwille-esque critter at their helm. All of those "self-help" gurus, same story. Big egos, bigger bull-pitching ability, and mountains of empty promises. Throw in a few tacky suits and Voila!, instant MOG!
The only thing significant about Wierwille and his "ministry" is the amount of importance we gave it. Outside of that, it was just another vapid salespitch for a really dubious "product"...
quote:My suspicion is that there were times in his life when Wierwille really felt he had something important to offer. I can't imagine that ALL the time he spent in studying and presenting teachings on the Bible was nothing more than a ploy to make himself rich, fat and sexually gratified.
EXACTLY!!! Let's see. 1942 - Vesper chimes. 1953 - PFAL. 1961 - Moved to HQ. 1967 - Filmed PFAL. 25 years is a long time to wait for an egg to hatch.
It was a long, fun ride for vee pee. He HAD to keep studying and finding new things to twist and teach. It was HIS PROFESSION!! He raped, scammed, robbed and destroyed people the entire time. It's not like he just woke up one morning and thought, "Hey, I wonder if I could get away with....."
My profession is as an analyst. I have to continue to study and learn new programming, new applications and formulas if I want my paycheck to keep rolling in and the longer I do it, the better I get at it, therefore the more money I make. Vee pee was no different. He picked his ride and rode it all the way to the motorcoach.
It was always about him...his so-called concern for others was simply another way to draw attention to himself...that's why Christ was declared AWOL...so that the mighty manofgawd could step into that position himself.
This is a classic "manifestation" of an alcoholic.
Raf, good point.
Belle, I see what you mean. It was a progression, wasn't it? Sorta like thinking "life is short, eat dessert first" kinda thing, and then it gets outta control? Is that what you meant?
I don't know about Wierwille getting spiritual spikes, phenomema or revelation back before TWI, but with all the erroneous doctrines he taught it seems to me It wasn't God giving it to him.
And I think Belle brings up a good point. Wierwille was an educated experienced preacher, thats what he knew for a profession.
Once he was fired from his denominational preacher job, it seems he decided to go into business for himself.
I don't know if he had a burning desire to preach the Word or not, but one way to get people to follow him, and pay his salery was to have a radio program as an advertisement.
Whether or not Vesper chimes youth caravan was a way to get followers, or maybe he just wanted to preach the Word I really can't say for sure, but I suspect it was to get followers.
This is a good thread. “Quite a yarn we can spin - while looking at the same object – we all are.†(Yoda – “Revenge of the Ex-Wayfersâ€).
STORY TIME: My Grandma used to use multi-colored yarn when she would knit mittens for us grandkids. The girls always liked them. But as I grew older, I did not want mittens that had multi-colors – too girly. I wanted “manly†colors or mono-colors. So Grandma would knit my mittens with gray or dark blue yarn when I started school. I was much happier to see fewer colors.
MORAL OF THE STORY: Perceptions of what we see, are based upon vibrations that our eyes actually detect (of course, color is nothing but different wavelengths of vibrations that we perceive). One person can look at the same yarn ( colored with flesh, spirit, knowledge, motives, reasons, experiences) that wove the same mitten (VPW), but only be sensitive to a few of the colors and reject that any of the other colors were there.
And why NOT reject someone else’s version or description of the mitten? After all, color blindness is a selective sensitivity condition… and remember, no human sees infrared light – although it IS present. The fact that we do not see it, is a selective receptor - sensitivity condition. Spiritually, there are many colors – and we are seeing them highlighted in this thread or yarn that knitted VPW.
I resonate with everything I have read on this thread... probably because I knew VPW, was there in the early days, and ... I still remember my EARLY mittens from Grandma. :)-->
Didn't most people believe it was a good Christian group and vp was beyond reproach?
That's what I thought.
I don't mean to answer for TGN (I'm sure he'll add his own insight and experience) but did you, honestly, ever think it was a "good Christian group"? I mean, it wasn't an organization that appealed to the goody-two-shoes among us, did it? As I remember it, inherent in the teachings was the understanding that we could be imperfect, and remain imperfect, perpetually and unrepentently imperfect, and still know and understand God. Wishful thinking, for sure. At least at the beginning, when Wierwille had the most direct influence, before he "trained up" others to take his place, The Way was a sort of a refuge from societal expectations of responsibility and obligation (aka "adulthood").
As far as the "shenanigans," I don't think it was a big secret that people were having sex. Rules have changed since way back then. Not too many of us had any concept of sexual abuse, harassment, intimidation, except in the most extreme cases. I mean, we could all recognize forcible rape, but most of what was going on "behind closed doors" was more subtle than that. Back then, it wasn't quite as clear who was wrong and who was right, and where and when the boundaries were crossed, and by whom. I'm not so sure it's all clear to me now, come to think of it.
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Yes why couldn't he see these spikes for what they were. You presented a lot of possible explanations. Which I believe are valid.
A total villain is not how I picture this person. Mislead by his own reasoning and further lead by his own problems. Rather then being lead by the Lord. Lack of patience possibly...
Lost some of the basics-like God is Love, no respector of persons. What He can do for one He can do for others.
There was and is no one "leader" of every person who is born again. This somehow escaped his attention through lack of understanding possibly. Paul lead because it was his Gospel that the Lord revealed to him. The Lord Jesus Christ is the leader and head.
We are to be brothers to Jesus Christ which makes us like him. The mind of Christ is not fictional imo.
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Steve Lortz
Sirguessalot's theory of spikes is as good an attempt at understanding Wierwille's "spirituality" as many. Ex10 contributes the viewpoint of one who actually knew him more personally than a lot of us did. Like she said, "paradoxes".
Here is my current take on Wierwille. He did and taught some good things, he did and taught some bad things, because there were both good and bad thoughts and intents in his heart. His problem (a problem not limited to just him) was that he couldn't tell the difference.
The heart is deceitful above all things because whatever comes out of a person's own heart seems right to that person, whether it really is right or not.
If I can't tell the difference between what is right and what is not in my own heart, what am I to do?
If everything that comes out of my own heart seems right to me, then what could possibly motivate me to submit what seems so right to the critque of ANYBODY, much less to the critique of God's Living Word?
How about the FEAR of the Lord? Not the mindless fear of being hit by a lightning bolt or being chucked into Hell for some senseless, petty infringement, but respect for the truth that God knows more than I do, and I need to bring the thoughts and intents of my heart into alignment with His, not the other way around.
What happens when a person doesn't fear God?
Some people compare Wierwille's sinfulness with David's and ask what's the difference? I believe David feared God and changed. Wierwille NEVER taught a genuine fear of God, because he said fear was always wrong. I don't have any evidence that Wierwille feared God at the end, or that he changed.
A subtle problem arising from involvement with TWI is that Wierwille taught us NOT to fear God. It's a difficulty whose consequences in my own life I am only now beginning to recognize. It is a major problem with all of the offshoots, including the current TWI itself.
Love,
Steve
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WhiteDove
Rascal
Makes a good point even Dr. Wierwille would agree. I would refer you to The Bible Tells Me So Chapter 6 The Counsel of the Lord pg 52
Quote:The question we must continue to ask ourselves
day by day is: Does our walk glorify God? This is the
one and only test we may apply. This test tells us
whether our walk is under the direction of the Lord
or whether we are simply acting by our self-centered
senses, diverted from God’s Spirit by another spirit.
The church in Corinth was specifically warned against
“another spirit,†namely, a different spirit which they
had not received according to II Corinthians 11:4.
This tells us that there is specifically another spirit
who is at work to misdirect and to deceive. This spirit
from Satan would try to control and deceive us
today, even as II Corinthians 11:3 says, “... as the
serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty.â€
When we are under the influence of “another
spirit,†we can be ever so “religious†while totally out
of alignment and harmony with God. One spirit is
from the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The other spirit is from the god of this world, who is
the devil.
So does that mean one screw up and your done for or is it two or seventy times seventy? My opinion and I stress those words. I think God looks upon each act each moment we can live for him or not and we will be judged as such. At the end of the day we must ask Does our walk glorify God? The next is a new day we will do better than the day before...
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justloafing
The way I see VP. Is a man that worked hard to make twi what it was in the early 80's. A love of money first and foremost. Everything else came after that. Yes I believe he could charm a snake and people remember that about him. That is fine. I also think he was mean as a snake. For some reason I feel he cared very little about people way down inside. We know he raped women (I wonder what they think about him and his kind ways?). I can say what I have read here and heard over the past. People died because of vp.
He was a man that could "Preach" what he wanted us to do but could never live up to his own standards that he wanted us to live up to. I would dare say anyone that was serious about twi and what was taught lived a better life according to twi's standards than he even dreamed of.
vp was the man. We were suppose to hang on every word he said and live it. Something he fell so short of.
To live the words of the bible to your life and never sin against it I believe is next to impossible (Things happen). I have never seen anyone come close. vp taught us in PFAL not to take one part of the bible and live it because we "liked it" and disregard another part because we did not "like it". He lived his life exactly oppisite of what he taught. He was spirtual all right from down below very spiritual. JMHO
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rascal
Great point Dove, though I am lmao at the incongruity of you managing to line me up to be in agreement with a person with whom I have such utter and complete contempt.....BRILLIANT!!!
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waterbuffalo
Sirguess,
I enjoyed reading your interpretation very much of vps life and works. I'm still trying to figure out if you're hindu, buddist, souphie (i know that's the wrong spelling), because some of the things you're saying sound familiar, just can't place them.
The part about not to keep paying him/them with our scorn seems valid enough. Throwing away those old boxes of offenses in our house makes it smell a lot better and eases up some or lots of that old pain caused by the wounds.
I suppose we all throw them out when we get ready, in our own time, if you will.
Good subject. It's always challenging to forget about it and then not get taken in again by the same sort, as rascal pointed out, as many have in twi offshoots.
We actually have now had to disassociate ourselves with some ex-twi "ministers" who proclaimed to do everthing differently in their group, but in reality, when they had a church, they lost it because they went to Golden Correll every Sunday after church, with a few select "spiritual ones" and discussed the flock and named all the demons they thought they had.
Just still doing the same 'ole way thing over and over again--hadn't changed a bit. Apparently they were impressed because wierwille's ways stuck with them.
Good subject.
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Raf
My suspicion is that there were times in his life when Wierwille really felt he had something important to offer. I can't imagine that ALL the time he spent in studying and presenting teachings on the Bible was nothing more than a ploy to make himself rich, fat and sexually gratified.
Unfortunately, the rich, fat and sexually gratified was a part of his motivation, and he let it get the best of him to the extent of overshadowing anything else in his legacy, especially to the extent that he distorted doctrine to serve his wealth and lust.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
humbleness is one thing of good heart!
stomping on ones heart to achieve aforementioned humbleness~~~
I guard my heart and keep the distance!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
May be I should start a thread on Dr. W's Eyeball~~~~
rumor has it he had people hold it
ey sirg~~~
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justloafing
Raf I could agree with you. I don't really know his pre twi days but if what I have read here it is true. If it is true I stand by (The love of money) theroy.
I could be wrong
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johniam
quote:My suspicion is that there were times in his life when Wierwille really felt he had something important to offer. I can't imagine that ALL the time he spent in studying and presenting teachings on the Bible was nothing more than a ploy to make himself rich, fat and sexually gratified.
EXACTLY!!! Let's see. 1942 - Vesper chimes. 1953 - PFAL. 1961 - Moved to HQ. 1967 - Filmed PFAL. 25 years is a long time to wait for an egg to hatch.
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satori001
Wierwillian spikes? He was strongly suspected of spiking drinks.
Did Wierwille ever mention revelatory visions? He talked about a literal snowstorm at a filling station in July, but that's not exactly tripping through fields of ambrosia like John the Revelator.
He described "revelation" during a class, again pretty prosaic stuff.
"I gots a pain in ma ovary! But nuts, I don't have ovaries, so it must be revelation from Big Daddy, or the hernia's acting up. If it's revelation I get to feel up... er, lay hands on this wonderful woman of Gawd. Something's just come up honey, and it's available if you're able to receive it, a 'spike' from on high might be in your future. I'll even show you, uh, what to do with it, praise the lord, once you've gawt it."
Your "spike" hypothesis is a stretch only because I'm unaware of any time Wierwille spoke of such an experience. He was inclined to describe lots of other experiences, so why not this kind? I wouldn't be surprised if your scenario had played out in some other cult. But it doesn't fit my limited but probably adequate knowledge of Wierwille's personality and behavior.
I think his driving ambition was ego-related, pure and simple. Not sporadic spikes of spirituality. He always loved an audience. He clearly loved being a celebrity. It provided him with instant dignity in his community. It provided opportunities to meet and seduce women in his congregation, for some of whom the looks, personality and position were an attractive combination.
Wierwille had talents for sales and motivation, and he was hungry. His appetites were progressive and addictive, in that they required more and more to be satisfied.
Wierwille, in my estimation, was never the real McCoy, even for a moment. Evidence? How ridiculous is his snowstorm in July "revelation?" What kind of a mind cooks up a story that lame? It wasn't the invention of someone skirting the borders of Heaven. It was the daydream of a con-artist with the spirituality of a gas pump.
Wierwille was always a pretender, a fraud, a poser relying on the techniques of a professional salesman. Sure, he had abilities. He had personality. He used it all. Even the sex was probably not an end in itself. Each woman was at most a pathetic conquest, because he eventually relied not upon his charm or his masculinity to win her, but upon his authority and "right" to have her - and he may have spiked her drink too. It hardly dignified his withered little ego, just as the rest of TWI's dog and pony show was designed to do. But it was better than a kick in the head, I suppose.
The whole damned ministry set about making Vic feel good about himself, and if we succeeded, maybe he'd share something really special about God in return. Weren't we suckers?
As I said, I don't doubt people have such revelatory experiences, and it may even get them in some trouble. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." More often, I think it would help "center" the person, make him or her more circumspect, a wiser and more compassionate person than before.
In Wierwille's case, had such an experience ever occurred to him, he'd have quickly forgotten about it. It didn't fit with his "filling station" concept of the Kingdom of Heaven and salvation (a good analogy for running people through PFAL to "be filled with the holy spirit," in a naturally warm environment that turned inexplicably, if not miraculously, cold).
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TheInvisibleDan
lol! That wouldn't happen to be the year in which the marketing pitch, "Christmas in July" first appeared?
I still like to imagine his experience as a bona-fide miracle. It was an unemployed "elemental" angel of judaism landed and perched atop of his dental-garage, gas station office..., that shook a box of soap suds over his window.
At least in this version he gets fooled .
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Raf
Woah!?!?!
I stand by what I said, but not how you applied it. If I'm not allowed to use his abuses to taint his ministry, then neither am I allowed to use his ministry to sugarcoat his abuses.
Not judging goes both ways.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille was THEE man of Gawd for the whole freaking world, just as I am the fifth Beatle...the question that I would pose is...was he even a legitimate Christian clergyman?
When the "adults" of his own congregation gave him the heave ho, he decided to prey on youngsters who were naive and idealistic. He built his cult by recruiting kids whose brains were half fried from taking too much acid and had already rejected the "established order" of the church...why?...because mainstream Christianity saw through him like a cheap suit. I know there are exceptions to this...but overall, that was his MO. He always showed special affection towards anyone from the mainstream of Christianity that was stupid enough to fall for his scam (ie: Ross T. and others).
I think satori nailed it when he spoke of Veepee's ego. It was always about him...his so-called concern for others was simply another way to draw attention to himself...that's why Christ was declared AWOL...so that the mighty manofgawd could step into that position himself. Nobody likes to think that they wasted years and years of their life following a con man...maybe that's why some folks try to rationalize that he "wasn't so bad afterall"...
...And yes, I knew the man personally for years...I experienced his "love" and "leadership" and heard him teach countless times...and that's WHY I have such a low opinion of him. HE LIED IN GOD's NAME!...I'll make no excuses for him.
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George Aar
Not much to add to Satori's analysis, except to say that, as hucksters go, Wierwille was hardly unique. Gawd, we've got a million of 'em.
Hitler, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Mussolini, and a few others are probably the most infamous of the breed in recent history, but there's loads of lessers that fit the mold. Take a look at any of the pyramid scheme MLMs around. They've all got a Wierwille-esque critter at their helm. All of those "self-help" gurus, same story. Big egos, bigger bull-pitching ability, and mountains of empty promises. Throw in a few tacky suits and Voila!, instant MOG!
The only thing significant about Wierwille and his "ministry" is the amount of importance we gave it. Outside of that, it was just another vapid salespitch for a really dubious "product"...
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Belle
It was a long, fun ride for vee pee. He HAD to keep studying and finding new things to twist and teach. It was HIS PROFESSION!! He raped, scammed, robbed and destroyed people the entire time. It's not like he just woke up one morning and thought, "Hey, I wonder if I could get away with....."
My profession is as an analyst. I have to continue to study and learn new programming, new applications and formulas if I want my paycheck to keep rolling in and the longer I do it, the better I get at it, therefore the more money I make. Vee pee was no different. He picked his ride and rode it all the way to the motorcoach.
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waterbuffalo
This is a classic "manifestation" of an alcoholic.
Raf, good point.
Belle, I see what you mean. It was a progression, wasn't it? Sorta like thinking "life is short, eat dessert first" kinda thing, and then it gets outta control? Is that what you meant?
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Outin88!
I don't know about Wierwille getting spiritual spikes, phenomema or revelation back before TWI, but with all the erroneous doctrines he taught it seems to me It wasn't God giving it to him.
And I think Belle brings up a good point. Wierwille was an educated experienced preacher, thats what he knew for a profession.
Once he was fired from his denominational preacher job, it seems he decided to go into business for himself.
I don't know if he had a burning desire to preach the Word or not, but one way to get people to follow him, and pay his salery was to have a radio program as an advertisement.
Whether or not Vesper chimes youth caravan was a way to get followers, or maybe he just wanted to preach the Word I really can't say for sure, but I suspect it was to get followers.
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Too Gray Now
This is a good thread. “Quite a yarn we can spin - while looking at the same object – we all are.†(Yoda – “Revenge of the Ex-Wayfersâ€).
STORY TIME: My Grandma used to use multi-colored yarn when she would knit mittens for us grandkids. The girls always liked them. But as I grew older, I did not want mittens that had multi-colors – too girly. I wanted “manly†colors or mono-colors. So Grandma would knit my mittens with gray or dark blue yarn when I started school. I was much happier to see fewer colors.
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Too Gray Now
MORAL OF THE STORY: Perceptions of what we see, are based upon vibrations that our eyes actually detect (of course, color is nothing but different wavelengths of vibrations that we perceive). One person can look at the same yarn ( colored with flesh, spirit, knowledge, motives, reasons, experiences) that wove the same mitten (VPW), but only be sensitive to a few of the colors and reject that any of the other colors were there.
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Too Gray Now
And why NOT reject someone else’s version or description of the mitten? After all, color blindness is a selective sensitivity condition… and remember, no human sees infrared light – although it IS present. The fact that we do not see it, is a selective receptor - sensitivity condition. Spiritually, there are many colors – and we are seeing them highlighted in this thread or yarn that knitted VPW.
I resonate with everything I have read on this thread... probably because I knew VPW, was there in the early days, and ... I still remember my EARLY mittens from Grandma.
:)-->
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waterbuffalo
Too Gray, since you were there in the early days, what percentage do you think knew about the closed door shenanagins going on?
Didn't most people believe it was a good Christian group and vp was beyond reproach?
That's what I thought.
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laleo
I don't mean to answer for TGN (I'm sure he'll add his own insight and experience) but did you, honestly, ever think it was a "good Christian group"? I mean, it wasn't an organization that appealed to the goody-two-shoes among us, did it? As I remember it, inherent in the teachings was the understanding that we could be imperfect, and remain imperfect, perpetually and unrepentently imperfect, and still know and understand God. Wishful thinking, for sure. At least at the beginning, when Wierwille had the most direct influence, before he "trained up" others to take his place, The Way was a sort of a refuge from societal expectations of responsibility and obligation (aka "adulthood").
As far as the "shenanigans," I don't think it was a big secret that people were having sex. Rules have changed since way back then. Not too many of us had any concept of sexual abuse, harassment, intimidation, except in the most extreme cases. I mean, we could all recognize forcible rape, but most of what was going on "behind closed doors" was more subtle than that. Back then, it wasn't quite as clear who was wrong and who was right, and where and when the boundaries were crossed, and by whom. I'm not so sure it's all clear to me now, come to think of it.
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