I thought... hmmm this sounds kind of like what I just read by you and ex on this thread.
(By the way, this story could have EASILY been written by my mother.--- It was her birthday, this weekend. She is with another man, now. A good and kind man, to her. The days of breaking dishes to make a point, are over.)
I also thought about the cup that got broken being like our innocent spirituality.
Sometimes I wonder if our notion of a very fragmented spirituality is not upon us for any other reason than - if you try and nail it down - doctrinally, then it will break it into hundresds of pieces.
Sometimes I wonder if our notion of a very fragmented spirituality is not upon us for any other reason than - if you try and nail it down - doctrinally, then it will break it into hundresds of pieces.
Like sailing. You can only harness some of the wind-and it's always changing directions. Always adjusting yet confident that it's there...
dear too gray, could you possibly be saying that this ****ing perfect inner man in me could be fragile
Ex, I wasn't thinking that in those words - but since you brought it forward, let's look at it together for a moment.
Regardless of how it occurs, I have seen a pattern in my own dysfunctional early family, in myself, in others,... and it is this... when someone fails to love, often others are the ones who seem to "break" first.
If the inner man can not be touched with the feelings of our infirm moments... then I would venture to say that this so called "inner" man could not be Christ.
I believe he/it is touched by the feeling of our brokenness. I believe our inner man feels the break, and is able to heal itself - much like our bodies do. Could it be that we are "made" to heal from the inside out?
If so, how come so many people stay broken for so long...?
We, through the mechanisms of memory of the past and hopelessness about the future - re-injure ourselves, daily … sometimes hourly. Like kids who pick off the scabs and start bleeding all over again. Then it has to re-form a scab.
My Mom is very happy, now.
But, she was broken for years, and years. Deeply broken. Shoot, when I came into this world, she tried to commit suicide. It was not about the “natural†depression that occurs after child birth –
It was because of what my dad had done. The lack of love was too much for her to bear. And she broke.
Is this part of our spirituality? I mean that she eventually was healed? I believe it is. In her case, it took the love of another to "finish" the inner work.
I believe we can do that for each other, and that is part of our spirituality... that it reaches out and touches. I believe that is how Jesus did it.
He often laid his hands upon them... but I think part of what was going on - was that he was allowing his spirit to more clearly feel - and then he could heal. Deeply and quickly.
I think it was a travesty that in TWI we were taught that our spirit just sat there in our lives and awaits the command from God to do anything. We were told it was "untouchable", because if it could could get the measeles or chicken pox, it wouldn't be incorruptable.
Incorruptable seed is a figure of speech, of course. It should form a beautiful figure in our minds as well.
And that is why my Mom is fine now. Something in her was able to start putting back together all the broken stuff... starting with itself.
I don't really know if any of this is really true... but I think it is more true than the version of "stand-alone, untouchable spirituality" that we learned in TWI.
I believe he/it is touched by the feeling of our brokenness. I believe our inner man feels the break, and is able to heal itself - much like our bodies do. Could it be that we are "made" to heal from the inside out?
quote:
I believe we can do that for each other, and that is part of our spirituality... that it reaches out and touches. I believe that is how Jesus did it.
He often laid his hands upon them... but I think part of what was going on - was that he was allowing his spirit to more clearly feel - and then he could heal. Deeply and quickly.
TGN,
I think you're on to something there. I've been thinking about those things a lot lately. Remember when the woman with the issue of blood was healed by touching the hem of his garment? He "felt virtue go out of him". I think there's a lot to be said for touch and energy/virtue sharing with love for your fellow man in the healing process.
That's why massage therapy (with a properly trained therapist) is so good...it's human touch and was recommended to me when I got divorced. I can say I think it is an important part of my healing process along with the "talk therapy" and anti-depressants. I also think there's benefits to bio-feedback, reiki and other things along those lines even though I'm still learning about all that.
Belle, hmmm. a massage. sounds so... good to me right now
Seriously, though, I think VPW's definition of "spirituality" is very weak to me now.
"that which is spirit is spirit, that which is flesh is flesh, and that which is pea soup - ain't apple buttter, now is it!"
Spirit is spirit. Flesh is flesh. This idea is true, in that everything has a basis for existance... or orgin if you will.
But it is a false argument, (to me, anyway) that these are so S_E_P_E_R_A_T_E_D from each other that there is some great divide that cleaves our beings into 3 parts. Hooey!
We can arrange to break what is 1 into many...
That is the reason that I posted that broken cup poem. (Besides, it hit very close to home, for me for other reasons.)
You know Rascal, I wonder too, how much the drinking had to do with stuff concerning his downfall.<BR><BR>
It was a real blow to me the first time I saw VPW drunk. He lost a LOT of my respect that day. In my mind I moved him over a category into "VERY fallable." I think that may have contributed for me to not be more hurt by him. I expected less of him from that moment on.<BR><BR>
That helped me to stand up to him because I just didn't feel that a man who felt the necessity to drink into drunkenness in his position wasn't any "better" than me. I actually saw him as lesser than me from that point. <BR><BR>
What you said contributes to my thinking that HE turned away from God. I have to admit seeing a huge spot of hypocracy in him as one of the guys on the cross said of Jesus, "He's said so much about saving others, why can't he save himself?"<BR>
Not comparing VP to Jesus.<BR><BR>
Yes Sunesis. It also angers me that he went after teenagers. He rationalized so much SO wrongly. We teens may have been jumping in and out of bed with each other having sex like rabbits, but HE wasn't US. He had that singular position as LEADER. Spiritual leader makes it all the worse. It was wrong if the teens were doing it, worse when he did it to them.
<BR><BR>I have a really great friend who was one of the "Groovy Chistians" at Rye. She never spoke in worshipful manner concerning VP... I wonder why?<BR><BR>
Again I agree with you. I did a stint teaching in a college. Some of my students were well into adulthood in their 20's. There is an unwritten, sacred trust that goes with leading younger people that is evident the moment you walk in to the situation; it screams, "Take GOOD care of me!."
I, and some of the other male instructors would often comment about the constant temptation even if the girls DON'T come on to you. Some do, OVERTLY, some do, unconsciously, some seem to "come on to you" even when it is the last thing on their minds. I totally agree with administration who say it is a matter of character. A line you can NEVER even THINK about crossing. One step across the line was a cause for termination.<BR><BR>
VP. for some reason had his own boundary issues where he couldn't, or at least we know didn't adhere to the most obvious of boundaries. There is a line of thinking that calls for adults (in this case women) to take personal responsibility for their level of culpability for their involvement in situations like these. I have re-thought my personal position to what I feel is a very simple, point blank place.<BR><BR>
When you are technically the "responsible party" YOU are responsible, totally, for what happens between you and a subordinate.<BR><BR>
I expanded that logic into dealing with my teenage daughter after we had a really bad argument where she was quite frankly out of her teen-aged mind. I felt horrible after and decided that since I'm the Dad, I was responsible for the argument even though I wasn't responsible for what she said. We have had several disagreements since, but no more arguments because I REFUSE to argue. I think that won more respect from her and I can now "talk her down" out of the same "trees" we once would argue in. She's still just as insane. I just better understand that there are certain things that cause her to lose her mind and I take responsibility for avoiding them FOR her in the event we disagree.<BR><BR>
I do that because I LOVE my children. Our sister excie will attest that VPW did NOT love her, no matter what he said. <BR><BR>
Concerning VPW's spirituality? He did NOT love US. I think he was damaged, lacking the capability to love truly with the love of God, in the renewed mind in manifestation that he spoke so often of.
<BR><BR>Again a simple line of thinking, If he did love us, he WOULD have LOVED us. <BR><BR>He may have wanted to, but he didn't. <BR><BR>
I think it ironic that it was though his ministry that we learned, some of us learned OF the love of God from "him." Some learned more about love through his words. Now we, after his death discuss how HE was incapable of loving with the love he taught about. <BR><BR>
Mor of the irony is that his own repeated actions kept him from recieving the healing he needed from God. <BR><BR>
Its been a kind difficult pill to swallow, the truth about "ol' VP." When you look at him in totality there is no choice but to swallow the more sallow aspects of his character, it changes the flavor of whatever sweetness is in the mix. <BR><BR>
Doesn't it?<BR><BR>
I firmly believe there ARE some black & white issues - - there are some absolute truths that we have no choice but to adhere to. In my life now I'm learning more and more what some of them are.
As someone who committed his life to studying the scriptures and teaching others, he was definitely a prime target for the adversary. It is obvious the adversary "took him out" and succeeded in shutting down a ministry of believers who were doing great things for God. I will always be thankful that God heard my prayer---"God, please show me how to speak in tongues!" A few days later I happened to meet a Way person--twig leader---who took me to his home and led me into tongues. All a result of the ministry of Victor Paul Wierwelle. I think we underestimate God's grace in people's lives.
Rascal, why dont you stay away from this website and get on with your life?
As someone who committed his life to studying the scriptures and teaching others, he was definitely a prime target for the adversary. It is obvious the adversary "took him out" and succeeded in shutting down a ministry of believers who were doing great things for God.
that's one way to look at it. another way is that he was a opportunist who saw a way to get attention. I think scripture was a means to an end for him and not a way of life. his way of life was dirty and his bible studies gave him a way to whitewash it. it's not really so obvious the "adversary" "took him out", it's a lot more obvious that his extreme narcissism and lack of character in general drove him to build an empire and in enjoying the fruits thereof, destroyed himself and others. he had a choice. the devil DID NOT make him do it. I think he did it himself because he was self-absorbed from the get-go.
Rascal, why dont you stay away from this website and get on with your life?
why should she? what do you mean "get on with" her "life"? because she has a laundry list of destructive acts that were commmitted against her in the name of gawd you want her to shut up?
Rascal, why dont you stay away from this website and get on with your life
We all here love Rascal and like Rascal we all here have to face the bad with the good of the Way cult and bring it in the open
Tallking about what happen is one way we can deal with things that happen to us
I love you and Rascal both
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved potato
God loves you my dear friend
yes VPW being a opportunist is one way another is he was just evil, another one is he begin good then turn into a opportunist and *.*
but here what I believe happen
VPW reach out for truth and found some but like the rich who asked Jesus how he could get to heaven - read about the rich man
Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
the only differ VPW was told to give up his lust for money and sex
As someone who committed his life to studying the scriptures and teaching others, he was definitely a prime target for the adversary.
This can be examined once it's written as a logic statement.
P->Q.
IF vpw was someone who committed his life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others,
THEN he was definitely a prime target for the adversary.
That means, for the second 1/2 to be true, the first 1/2 must also be true.
Was vpw someone who committed his life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others?
Well,
when he was a child, NOBODY saw any piety in him.
When he was a teenager, he was seen as a showoff and a bully.
When it was known he would be going to seminary/whatever, the locals
didn't believe it-it was inconsistent with the man they'd known.
He told the corps more than once that he'd considered ministry in addition to
considering business and entertainment, then decided on ministry.
When he went to seminary, he had the option of several courses of study
actually about SCRIPTURE-like Bible languages.
Instead, his choice was HOMILETICS, or PREACHING, the "softest" option
in seminary.
He went into preaching. Sometime after a year of preaching-which was
AFTER completing his Bachelor's- he believed the Bible was the Word of
God BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, which raises the question of what he based
his early sermons on.
His career floundered until he took BG Leonard's class and taught it as his
own and SAID it was his own, and took Stiles' book and sold it as his own
and SAID it was his own.
His next "explosion" was after he went to Haight-Ashbury and convinced some
of the Christians there to join his group, after which those Christians went out
and got large numbers of recruits.
Whenever doing ANY endeavour, he always made sure MONEY was an outcome,
and never even CONSIDERED any "break-even" propositions once he had the
"House of Acts" people bringing in numbers.
In short, he CLAIMED he'd "committed his life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others.
His ACTIONS show otherwise, beyond a superficial display completely contradicted in front
of those who knew him when the cameras were off.
Just like Richard Nixon said "I am not a crook" and people don't believe him,
vpw said "I am a holy man of God" and we don't believe him.
Since vpw was not committed for life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others,
the adversary wasn't targetting him any MORE than anyone else- despite having successful,
fertile ground to plant plans in.
It is obvious the adversary "took him out" and succeeded in shutting down a ministry of believers who were doing great things for God.
It is obvious that the man drank alcohol DAILY and smoked tobacco DAILY, then died of cancer,
and people came along and claimed there was a SPIRITUAL reason he did.
It's also obvious that SOME Christians in twi were sterling examples of Christianity,
and SOME Christians in twi were dismal examples of Christianity.
The dismal examples, generally, were corps grads and/or staff.
The sterling examples, generally, were untitled, or local Christians who sometimes had
completed corps or wow.
The dismal examples WERE IN CHARGE, generally,
and that's epitomized by vpw putting lcm in charge of the corps, then twi.
I will always be thankful that God heard my prayer---"God, please show me how to speak in tongues!" A few days later I happened to meet a Way person--twig leader---who took me to his home and led me into tongues.
That's something to be thankful-TO GOD-for.
Another thing to be thankful for is being kept out of vpw's personal clutches,
which would have been quite harmful if you were the "wrong" person.
(Some people got off easy, some people were crushed.)
All a result of the ministry of Victor Paul Wierwelle.
All a result of the ministering of GOD ALMIGHTY in people's lives,
IN SPITE OF vpw.
I think we underestimate God's grace in people's lives.
I think some of us disregard God's commands for conduct in people's lives,
and think God's grace=license for great sinning, if only for vpw.
Rascal, why dont you stay away from this website and get on with your life?
rascal's doing quite well getting on with her life.
Why don't you stay away from this website and enjoy a propagandized version
of life in twi?
rascal's on-topic with the stated purpose of the GSC:
"Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
We want people to be able to make informed decisions regarding their past, present, and future affiliations with The Way International (TWI). Whether you are standing with TWI, thinking about leaving, trying to help someone else get out, or looking for support from others who have left, we believe the information here is highly relevant and well worth considering."
"Consider the longstanding patterns of conspiracy at the trustee level, questionable doctrines and practices, ongoing cover-ups, and sexual abuse of numerous women at the hands of certain TWI leaders. It's no wonder that TWI is desperately trying to shield their followers from this information by warning them off the Internet. We think that if you give this information an honest reading, you'll see that you haven't been told the whole story."
"You may get caught in a food fight now and then, but unlike TWI, GreaseSpot Cafe is a place where questions are encouraged and people make up their own minds."
As someone who committed his life to studying the scriptures and teaching others, he was definitely a prime target for the adversary. It is obvious the adversary "took him out" and succeeded in shutting down a ministry of believers who were doing great things for God.
Parts of that are debateable (sp?) -- but still -- it takes two to tango.
I have not read this thread, and I see it is 2 years old.....so maybe someone else has pointed this out:
VPW was heard to say that the value of a counterfeit is only as good as its proximity to the real thing (or something like that he said). Who better to know that than the master counterfeiter himself?
As someone who committed his life to studying the scriptures and teaching others, he was definitely a prime target for the adversary. It is obvious the adversary "took him out" and succeeded in shutting down a ministry of believers who were doing great things for God. I will always be thankful that God heard my prayer---"God, please show me how to speak in tongues!" A few days later I happened to meet a Way person--twig leader---who took me to his home and led me into tongues. All a result of the ministry of Victor Paul Wierwelle. I think we underestimate God's grace in people's lives....
After analyzing vp's doctrines, methods and behavior many folks find a lot of holes in that assumption. I would say rather than being a target of the adversary hewas more like the adversary's tool. I for one, tend to think all his efforts were self-serving – and did more to divert people from true Christianity.
I am thankful for the chain of events around the time of Passing of a Patriarch – events which I believe were orchestrated by God to cripple a ministry intent on ripping people off and disgracing the name of Jesus Christ.
As someone who committed his life to studying the scriptures and teaching others, he was definitely a prime target for the adversary. It is obvious the adversary "took him out"
if the "adversary" had anything to do with it, he'da probably let the miserable old lecher live to abuse even more.. cause more "destruction".
Then we'd probably have learned of his true nature and fled years ago..
oh.. maybe that's it. The "adversary" figured we'd stay if he snuffed out old "st. vic" before what he did to some of God's people became public knowledge.. we'd stay even longer.
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excathedra
you're wonderful todd and pretty clear
i'm the one with the foggy narrow mind
but don't forget i'm older
;)-->
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excathedra
i meant to say "i'm old" not "older"
i don't think i'm spiritual
really. it's always bothered me.
**
but that's way brain crap, what i picked up from them....
at this time i want to raise my son really well
and fit me in here and there
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sirguessalot
words like "spirit" and "spiritual" seemed to have taken quite a hit (shattering it into like, a thousand pieces)
it has sooo many conflicting meanings (and not just 2, like how every darned thing in PFAL seemed to have, such evenly split meanings)
off the top of my head...
to some, "spiritual" is a gift out of nowhere
to some, it is something earned
to some, it is something always present
to some, it is something always far far away
to some, it is invisible
to some, it is hard to miss
to some, it is mannish
to some, it is womanish
to some, it is parental
to some, it is childish
to some, the bottommost
to some, the topmost
to some, it is looking forward
to some, it is looking behind
to some, it is everything
to some, it is not a thing at all
to some, it is life
to some, it is death itself
to some, it is good
to some, it is evil
to some, it is private
to some, it is collective
in all cases, spirit seems to imply an ultimate something or other
the most farthest extreme whatever royal mostness of almightiest yada yada yada
be it deepest inward or farthest outward, or the most extreme middle zone
i mean, even as nonsense goes, spiritual nonsense has got to be the ultimate nonsense there is, no?
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Too Gray Now
I just read this poem by Angie Horvath...
I thought... hmmm this sounds kind of like what I just read by you and ex on this thread.
(By the way, this story could have EASILY been written by my mother.--- It was her birthday, this weekend. She is with another man, now. A good and kind man, to her. The days of breaking dishes to make a point, are over.)
I also thought about the cup that got broken being like our innocent spirituality.
Sometimes I wonder if our notion of a very fragmented spirituality is not upon us for any other reason than - if you try and nail it down - doctrinally, then it will break it into hundresds of pieces.
It can never be without a crack again.
Oh - yeah - here's the poem.
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Too Gray Now
There's nothing but shattered pieces
my china cup has paid the price
I spent too much at the store today
and his reaction wasn't nice
The kids complained and fussed
I could feel impending doom
He was tired and didn't care
now they're crying in their room
I cower and listen in numb despair
while his curses fill my ears
He's got my throat, I cannot breathe
my eyes well up with tears
"If only you didn't make me mad!"
I know that's what he'll say
I'd run and hide and take the kids
but I'd never get away
He's sitting there, his fire has died
pretending nothing fared
I stand and face him, cup in hand
I've never been so scared
"You see this cup?" I asked him
"So fragile and complete?"
I threw it down in one swift blow
and glass flew at his feet
He stared at me in disbelief
as I finally took a stand
"This cup is me, each broken piece,
I wish you'd understand!"
"Some of the pieces can be fixed
with patience and some glue,
but some of these are just too small
this cup will never be new."
"Each time you say a hateful word
each time you grab my arm,
My mind and heart are shattered
and you'll never undo the harm."
He told me I was crazy,
and I'd better clean up the mess
I guess the lesson here was lost
and so am I, I guess
I found the strength to leave one day
but it took too long to get free
A shattered cup is my reminder
of the life he took from me
The pain is still too real to me
even though he's not around
He still finds ways to hurt me
and throw me to the ground
My life is shattered pieces
but at least I can know this:
Someday God will fix my cup
but who will take care of his?
Angie Horvath 2000
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CM
Like sailing. You can only harness some of the wind-and it's always changing directions. Always adjusting yet confident that it's there...
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excathedra
((((((( todd ))))))) dear friend and everyone else here helping me to learn, thank you
**
dear too gray, could you possibly be saying that this ****ing perfect inner man in me could be fragile
thank you for your post / poem
**
sometimes it seems everyone around is me is busy living their lives.... or posting their posts.... and i find myself still searching....
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Too Gray Now
Ex, I wasn't thinking that in those words - but since you brought it forward, let's look at it together for a moment.
Regardless of how it occurs, I have seen a pattern in my own dysfunctional early family, in myself, in others,... and it is this... when someone fails to love, often others are the ones who seem to "break" first.
If the inner man can not be touched with the feelings of our infirm moments... then I would venture to say that this so called "inner" man could not be Christ.
I believe he/it is touched by the feeling of our brokenness. I believe our inner man feels the break, and is able to heal itself - much like our bodies do. Could it be that we are "made" to heal from the inside out?
If so, how come so many people stay broken for so long...?
We, through the mechanisms of memory of the past and hopelessness about the future - re-injure ourselves, daily … sometimes hourly. Like kids who pick off the scabs and start bleeding all over again. Then it has to re-form a scab.
My Mom is very happy, now.
But, she was broken for years, and years. Deeply broken. Shoot, when I came into this world, she tried to commit suicide. It was not about the “natural†depression that occurs after child birth –
It was because of what my dad had done. The lack of love was too much for her to bear. And she broke.
Is this part of our spirituality? I mean that she eventually was healed? I believe it is. In her case, it took the love of another to "finish" the inner work.
I believe we can do that for each other, and that is part of our spirituality... that it reaches out and touches. I believe that is how Jesus did it.
He often laid his hands upon them... but I think part of what was going on - was that he was allowing his spirit to more clearly feel - and then he could heal. Deeply and quickly.
I think it was a travesty that in TWI we were taught that our spirit just sat there in our lives and awaits the command from God to do anything. We were told it was "untouchable", because if it could could get the measeles or chicken pox, it wouldn't be incorruptable.
Incorruptable seed is a figure of speech, of course. It should form a beautiful figure in our minds as well.
And that is why my Mom is fine now. Something in her was able to start putting back together all the broken stuff... starting with itself.
I don't really know if any of this is really true... but I think it is more true than the version of "stand-alone, untouchable spirituality" that we learned in TWI.
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Belle
TGN,
I think you're on to something there. I've been thinking about those things a lot lately. Remember when the woman with the issue of blood was healed by touching the hem of his garment? He "felt virtue go out of him". I think there's a lot to be said for touch and energy/virtue sharing with love for your fellow man in the healing process.
That's why massage therapy (with a properly trained therapist) is so good...it's human touch and was recommended to me when I got divorced. I can say I think it is an important part of my healing process along with the "talk therapy" and anti-depressants. I also think there's benefits to bio-feedback, reiki and other things along those lines even though I'm still learning about all that.
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Too Gray Now
Belle, hmmm. a massage. sounds so... good to me right now
Seriously, though, I think VPW's definition of "spirituality" is very weak to me now.
"that which is spirit is spirit, that which is flesh is flesh, and that which is pea soup - ain't apple buttter, now is it!"
Spirit is spirit. Flesh is flesh. This idea is true, in that everything has a basis for existance... or orgin if you will.
But it is a false argument, (to me, anyway) that these are so S_E_P_E_R_A_T_E_D from each other that there is some great divide that cleaves our beings into 3 parts. Hooey!
We can arrange to break what is 1 into many...
That is the reason that I posted that broken cup poem. (Besides, it hit very close to home, for me for other reasons.)
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Belle
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd the Great Guesser of our times
God loves us all here my friend
I just read your beginning tread and have not read more into the replies here but how did I miss this great tread of wisdom I do not know but I did
This is what might of or may of happen to VPW when he got that first spiritual peak
God look down and said to VPW " here is another part of that truth "
VPW look up and said "NO NO I got the whole truth the first time and there is only one truth"
God spoke "My dear there are many parts to that one truth or many sides"
VPW said to God "your not God"
the flesh speaks up "look at her *ss"
will I guess you know the rest of the story
but I might be wrong but give me time and I will come up with more guesses my friend
because it could of been LCM *ss he saw because they say LCM showered VPW but I was not close to them
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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chwester
As someone who committed his life to studying the scriptures and teaching others, he was definitely a prime target for the adversary. It is obvious the adversary "took him out" and succeeded in shutting down a ministry of believers who were doing great things for God. I will always be thankful that God heard my prayer---"God, please show me how to speak in tongues!" A few days later I happened to meet a Way person--twig leader---who took me to his home and led me into tongues. All a result of the ministry of Victor Paul Wierwelle. I think we underestimate God's grace in people's lives.
Rascal, why dont you stay away from this website and get on with your life?
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potato
that's one way to look at it. another way is that he was a opportunist who saw a way to get attention. I think scripture was a means to an end for him and not a way of life. his way of life was dirty and his bible studies gave him a way to whitewash it. it's not really so obvious the "adversary" "took him out", it's a lot more obvious that his extreme narcissism and lack of character in general drove him to build an empire and in enjoying the fruits thereof, destroyed himself and others. he had a choice. the devil DID NOT make him do it. I think he did it himself because he was self-absorbed from the get-go.
why should she? what do you mean "get on with" her "life"? because she has a laundry list of destructive acts that were commmitted against her in the name of gawd you want her to shut up?
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year2027
God first
Beloved chwester
God loves you my dear friend
We all here love Rascal and like Rascal we all here have to face the bad with the good of the Way cult and bring it in the open
Tallking about what happen is one way we can deal with things that happen to us
I love you and Rascal both
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved potato
God loves you my dear friend
yes VPW being a opportunist is one way another is he was just evil, another one is he begin good then turn into a opportunist and *.*
but here what I believe happen
VPW reach out for truth and found some but like the rich who asked Jesus how he could get to heaven - read about the rich man
Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
the only differ VPW was told to give up his lust for money and sex
but he was in heat at the time
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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WordWolf
This can be examined once it's written as a logic statement.
P->Q.
IF vpw was someone who committed his life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others,
THEN he was definitely a prime target for the adversary.
That means, for the second 1/2 to be true, the first 1/2 must also be true.
Was vpw someone who committed his life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others?
Well,
when he was a child, NOBODY saw any piety in him.
When he was a teenager, he was seen as a showoff and a bully.
When it was known he would be going to seminary/whatever, the locals
didn't believe it-it was inconsistent with the man they'd known.
He told the corps more than once that he'd considered ministry in addition to
considering business and entertainment, then decided on ministry.
When he went to seminary, he had the option of several courses of study
actually about SCRIPTURE-like Bible languages.
Instead, his choice was HOMILETICS, or PREACHING, the "softest" option
in seminary.
He went into preaching. Sometime after a year of preaching-which was
AFTER completing his Bachelor's- he believed the Bible was the Word of
God BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, which raises the question of what he based
his early sermons on.
His career floundered until he took BG Leonard's class and taught it as his
own and SAID it was his own, and took Stiles' book and sold it as his own
and SAID it was his own.
His next "explosion" was after he went to Haight-Ashbury and convinced some
of the Christians there to join his group, after which those Christians went out
and got large numbers of recruits.
Whenever doing ANY endeavour, he always made sure MONEY was an outcome,
and never even CONSIDERED any "break-even" propositions once he had the
"House of Acts" people bringing in numbers.
In short, he CLAIMED he'd "committed his life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others.
His ACTIONS show otherwise, beyond a superficial display completely contradicted in front
of those who knew him when the cameras were off.
Just like Richard Nixon said "I am not a crook" and people don't believe him,
vpw said "I am a holy man of God" and we don't believe him.
Since vpw was not committed for life to studying the Scriptures and teaching others,
the adversary wasn't targetting him any MORE than anyone else- despite having successful,
fertile ground to plant plans in.
It is obvious that the man drank alcohol DAILY and smoked tobacco DAILY, then died of cancer,and people came along and claimed there was a SPIRITUAL reason he did.
It's also obvious that SOME Christians in twi were sterling examples of Christianity,
and SOME Christians in twi were dismal examples of Christianity.
The dismal examples, generally, were corps grads and/or staff.
The sterling examples, generally, were untitled, or local Christians who sometimes had
completed corps or wow.
The dismal examples WERE IN CHARGE, generally,
and that's epitomized by vpw putting lcm in charge of the corps, then twi.
That's something to be thankful-TO GOD-for.
Another thing to be thankful for is being kept out of vpw's personal clutches,
which would have been quite harmful if you were the "wrong" person.
(Some people got off easy, some people were crushed.)
All a result of the ministering of GOD ALMIGHTY in people's lives,IN SPITE OF vpw.
I think some of us disregard God's commands for conduct in people's lives,
and think God's grace=license for great sinning, if only for vpw.
rascal's doing quite well getting on with her life.
Why don't you stay away from this website and enjoy a propagandized version
of life in twi?
rascal's on-topic with the stated purpose of the GSC:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/about-us.html
"Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees. Our hope is that GreaseSpot Cafe serves as a place where those who have been impacted by The Way can make connections with people and information which will support their particular process of recovery.
We want people to be able to make informed decisions regarding their past, present, and future affiliations with The Way International (TWI). Whether you are standing with TWI, thinking about leaving, trying to help someone else get out, or looking for support from others who have left, we believe the information here is highly relevant and well worth considering."
"Consider the longstanding patterns of conspiracy at the trustee level, questionable doctrines and practices, ongoing cover-ups, and sexual abuse of numerous women at the hands of certain TWI leaders. It's no wonder that TWI is desperately trying to shield their followers from this information by warning them off the Internet. We think that if you give this information an honest reading, you'll see that you haven't been told the whole story."
"You may get caught in a food fight now and then, but unlike TWI, GreaseSpot Cafe is a place where questions are encouraged and people make up their own minds."
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dmiller
Parts of that are debateable (sp?) -- but still -- it takes two to tango.
Just saying.
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HAPe4me
I have not read this thread, and I see it is 2 years old.....so maybe someone else has pointed this out:
VPW was heard to say that the value of a counterfeit is only as good as its proximity to the real thing (or something like that he said). Who better to know that than the master counterfeiter himself?
~HAP
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T-Bone
After analyzing vp's doctrines, methods and behavior many folks find a lot of holes in that assumption. I would say rather than being a target of the adversary he was more like the adversary's tool. I for one, tend to think all his efforts were self-serving – and did more to divert people from true Christianity.
I am thankful for the chain of events around the time of Passing of a Patriarch – events which I believe were orchestrated by God to cripple a ministry intent on ripping people off and disgracing the name of Jesus Christ.
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Ham
if the "adversary" had anything to do with it, he'da probably let the miserable old lecher live to abuse even more.. cause more "destruction".
Then we'd probably have learned of his true nature and fled years ago..
oh.. maybe that's it. The "adversary" figured we'd stay if he snuffed out old "st. vic" before what he did to some of God's people became public knowledge.. we'd stay even longer.
just kept me in another ten years or so..
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