Good points Satori. I saw the ledgers Mrs. Wierwille kept during the early years. They were sad, down to the penny. They were poor, he barely eeked out a living. I think money was a huge motivation for VP.
I think the power came later and he was quite surprised at the growth of TWI, but enjoyed it and went with the flow. Hey, if a bunch of naive young kids think he's an apostle or the MOG, who was he to shatter their naive misconceptions.
He always used to talk about, how in the early days, he just believed God for 50 faithful men, that's all he wanted, just 50 faithful men. I ask myself, why only 50? Well, if during the '50s, 50 men were ABSing 10% of their income, that's enough for him to live on comfortably - very comfortably. All he has to do is preach on Sundays.
One of the first things he did when money started coming in was buy himself a very nice, new Harley. One of his old timer assistants (PW? I think), asked him point blank where did he get the money for that as the ABS was to go to TWI and there was no way VP could afford it on his meagre salary TWI, his non-profit organization was paying him. The man quit when VP admitted it had come from TWI funds.
When VP died he had 4 or 5 extensively and expensively tricked out Harleys, an airplane, motorcoach, the H.Q. compound, properties and farms all over New Knoxville, campuses all over the US, properties in Europe, limb homes, only the best clothes, top dollar suits guns, leather motorcycle riding outfits, cowboy outfits and stetson hats, a corps chalet, a big fancy world class auditorium, a historical center and mansion, a Way prod. building in new Bremen, dog kennels, top breed dogs, etc., that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
As long as everyone thought that with VP, the spiritual was the most important thing to him, the money kept a rollin' in - and he lived his lavish lifestyle.
I agree the MOG status was very important to him. But he sure did acquire alot of stuff as he humbly moved the Word. I guess it can be looked at both ways.
Okay, he did have the trappings of wealth. And he did enjoy them. I didn't know he had all those Harleys. Who held title? I bet it was TWI.
Some of the things you mention, like the auditorium, served the ministry more than the man, UNLESS we're talkin' ego.
The lavish lifestyle served his ego too. He never had a pile of money. He had a ton of privilege.
It may be a fine distinction, but it's an important one. If we could determine that he was hording those gold bars, I might see it differently.
The reason for the distinction is that it's a window into the man's character. People who are money-driven are different than those who are ego-driven. I don't know if I could define them so easily, but the two stereotypes are significant.
He heads out to CA in the '60s because he hears there are some Christian groups practicing "free love" and wants to somehow, make sure its ok and get scripture to back it up.
sunesis, funny you should say that. i'm reading jimmy doop's take on what happened back then. he and judy ONE time got involved in an orgy or a swinging singles thing as hippies and left after 20 minutes. they also felt they had been delivered from this type of thing when they got born again. wierwille was the first minister ever to keep asking them what it was like and for the details. they were shocked.
what else ? (i don't feel like paging through his book). jim had given up drugs and booze and when he went to ohio this "man of god" came down the stairs of his house with drink in hand and first thing he did was offer drinks....
there's so much more. i think heefner and jimmy and their friends in CA were doing something good. then they hooked up with wierwille and it wasn't long before he broke his word and told them they had to bring the money in to HQ and stop operating like he had originally set them up.
another thing wierwille told doop is that if you ever get accused of messing around with someone other than your wife, call the accuser a LIAR because you as the man are more important than the woman. i'll have to get the quote out. or we'll have to help jimmy get his book published or on the internet.
he's actually quite kind in his review of the facts in my humble opinion.
wierwille also said he had tried running the ministry (or getting the word over the world) with love but he decided it didn't work and fear would have to be the way to do it.
it's crazy, but i believe him.
he talks about abortion and things wierwille said way before i got involved.
--
you know, i've always said "sex" wasn't the issue in my case. i had been sexually abused about 8 years before meeting wierwille. i told him all about it (looking for help). he used that ...... now is that sick or what ?
more later maybe
i got a kick out of doop's first visit to HQ and he was VP and next time he went back, this guy was DOCTOR wierwille.
oh well
ego, money, i don't know.. .. i call it self-serviing and cruel.... certainly not "spiritual"
ps. i am not surprised to think that he was surprised how everything starting "moving" since really he had nothing to do with it
Wierwille had a marvelous scam going. He could live the lifestyle of a rich man, without having to pay the taxes. Live in the family home tax-free. Fine gifts, vacations, servants, privileges. Just put everything in a tax-exempt organization's name.
Just one drawback: when Wierwille died, he wouldn't be able to will any of those possessions to his wife or children.
Hi Ex - I always enjoy your posts! I was raised under Steve Heefner and his wife Sandy, they were wonderful people.
I think you're right, VP did eventually try and control, and possibly without realizing it, destroying these men's ministries. Heefner was right to tell him to shove it eventually. VP's ego wouldn't let him have these tremendous men, in his mind, competing with him.
Though I never knew Doop and saw him from afar, and in a few meetings later, I would love to hear his history in TWI.
Nice post ExCathedra. And I too would love to read Jim Doops take on TWI. Is there a way for any of us to get a hold of a copy? If it is not published or posted on the net, it seems as if you must have received a personal copy. With Jim's permission, could it be scanned into your computer and then posted somewhere?
Sorry to hear of the things you went through before you met VPW, and then how he must have taken advantage of that as you say. I don't know much about you, but by some of the things you have shared, specifically what you shared in your last post, you must have been terribly used. Like you may know by things I have said, I never really experienced too much abuse in The Way, and it has taken me time to see and accept that VPW did a lot of very bad things. I hope all is well and that you ahve a great day!
no not "the house of acts" i owe 20 bucks to onion eater for a copy of that :)-->
this is "when the hippies found jesus" and subtitled i think "ears to hear" also says a true story of the sixties, by jimmy e. doop
i know he and johnny socks have talked about getting it out. also paw and a few others said they are willing to help. i'll see what he's doing or wants to do since it's his story to tell
but in the meantime, here's one of the things i was referring to:
quote:
As we relaxed and had a second drink, he asked Judy and me to describe what is was like to attend an orgy. We were taken back by the question and embarrassed by it, because even though it was part of our testimony in our deliverance from sin to God's righteousness, no one had ever asked us to describe what it was like to go to an orgy. We found his curiosity shocking. But we gave him a brief description which is really all we could give him since our encounter with an orgy had been so brief. We had attended one orgy sponsored by the San Francisco Sexual Freedom League, but we were so overwhelmed by the spectacle that we had left after twenty minutes.
"You know that's all available," V.P. said. "God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'"
I could not believe what I was hearing. I responded with, "I just thank God that He pulled our soul out of that pit of debauchery." When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her, "I don't believe what he said tonight, and I'm going to forget it. I must have misunderstood him."
hey dear sunesis, he and heefner have been friends since kindergarten !!!!!!
wierwille also said he had tried running the ministry (or getting the word over the world) with love but he decided it didn't work and fear would have to be the way to do it.
About VPW’s Spirituality – nearly nothing was as quintessential as “Positive and Negative Believing†when it came to his spirituality. I believe the statement Ex said…because it fits with the happenings.
VP co-opted and “borrowed†from what appeared to be an eclectic bunch of sources. Not the least of which were “happenings†and “awakenings†in the 60’s and early 70’s.
Jimmy Doop and all the other RELLY early believers know more about this than nearly all of us at GSC. We all came from somewhere.
His doctrine/spirituality of carrying a POSITIVE ATTITUDE was central to the whole thing, early on. Where did this come from?
One of the places VP got a LOT of circa 1960s reinforcement about “positive confession†- was a book by Maxwell Maltz, M.D. titled “Psycho-Cyberneticsâ€. I specifically recall him saying during some “live class†that what he (VP) was teaching about positive believing - was NOT Psycho-Cybernetics!!
I think the book was on his “junk table†at the Advanced Class.
Well, the book by Maltz (that was originally published many years ago) is actually quite good. It is interesting that in the Preface of the book that Maltz speaks to the way in which his ideas would NOT work. Here is what Maltz said…
Positive thinking… “It literally CANNOT work when it is inconsistent with the self image.†In other words, you can not harbor a dark thought or feeling that you “suck†because some ministry (leader) said so - just “confess†the Word then you will be fine. It cannot work. Fear-based “faith†is a scam.
VPWs spirituality is better understood, at least in this case, by reading the book from the Junk Table than by taking PFAL.
VP decided it was HIS ministry, to take the World Over the World. (This “motivation†– of having a BIG goal- is straight out of Maltz).
If he had stayed clear of the desires to build some big gig, he “might†have been able to remain an eclectic and been able to listen to those who got the “revelation†before he did… and who (in nearly every case I have been able to read) understood it better than he did.
Jimmy Doop understood the Jesus movement better than VP. Maltz understood “positive confession†better than VPW.
Any bets about the other parts of his doctrines which became our adopted spirituality??
I am not speaking disparingly of Maltz, by the way.
I have found his work to be much more interesting in the topic of "positive" and how that impacts our lives than anything in PFAL, Tony Robbins, et-al.
Not really speaking disparingly of VP, either. We all gotta move on.
And if being "positive" has a sour taste on your tongue, then (if you are like me, it did for the past 12 years - post TWI - because it does not work!)
"The Board of Trustees has made the decison to centralize the administration of all the ministries. That way you guys [talking to Steve and Jimmy, me talking] won't have to be bothered with any of that stuff anymore. You'll be free to teach the Word of God and to minister to the people.....[i'm leaving out some stuff just because I don't feel like typing it all]
Straightening up, setting his eyes on me, he crushed his cigarette into the ashtray and snapped back, "I dn't intend to go down the same old path as the denominations. I intend to make a new path." His jaw jutted out as he braced himself, sitting up straight with both hands on the arms of the chair. "I do not believe that you can reach the goal of Word over the world by operating in love. I've tried it with these people. I think you have rule by fear."
It didn't seem to bother Wierwille that we were incredibly shocked. We were beginning to learn what Victor wanted Vicotr got and he would take any route necessary in order to get what he wanted. And that was the day the love died. Up until now we had both operated in love with a great desire to turn people on to the Word of God and watch them as their lives improved and glowed with the light of Christ.
I said, "I can't agree with that, Doctor. I believe we've been very successful in operating in love." With THAT our discussions ended.....
This was the beginning of the end. Wierwille had broke his word to us. This was the main problem. This was extremely troubling to Steve and me.
"I do not believe that you can reach the goal of Word over the world by operating in love. I've tried it with these people. I think you have rule by fear."
If that's how he felt, why didn't he just join the Southern Baptists?? I grew up listening to that kind of shinola......which is why I left them and went to TWI. I just didn't realize I had jumped from the frying pan into the fire.
I second the thanks, ex! :D-->
Dan, committing some of those sins is fun. Don't know if I'd want to delegate those! ;)-->
"I do not believe that you can reach the goal of Word over the world by operating in love. I've tried it with these people. I think you have rule by fear."
Interesting that his successors took it one step further- they did not rule by fear, they ruled by TERROR.
Ex... thanks again. That quote is an amazing thing. Quitting on Love. What a doppy thing to do.
You know he used to talk about Glenn Clark (Camps Furtherest Out) and Starr Daily as if they were good friends of his.
This quote is from Starr Daily's autobiography...
quote:
God is the Supreme Shepherd, and it must forever be the logical procedure for the shepherd to seek his lost sheep, and not for the lost sheep to seek him. When we are lost in the woods our sense of direction is gone and we move about in fruitless circles. It is only when we cease seeking our way and sit down and get quiet that we regain our poise and balance sufficiently for intuition (the Spirit of God) to lead us out of our dilemma.
Our job here is to learn to love. It is the only obligation man has in the world. There is no other religion. And it is all the salvation possible. Any service rendered in an effort to placate God is futile. If you think you can serve God while at the same time you have in your mind you are serving God, then you are separating yourself from God. Service to God is present only when the thought of serving Him is absent. When you love the service and think not of rewards or results, or that you are doing it for God in return for His gifts, God will then draw nigh unto you.
Again, it seems like those who VPW cited as helping him to formulate his message/spirituality - They actually seemed to grasp what they were saying - because they received it - personally.
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Sunesis
Good points Satori. I saw the ledgers Mrs. Wierwille kept during the early years. They were sad, down to the penny. They were poor, he barely eeked out a living. I think money was a huge motivation for VP.
I think the power came later and he was quite surprised at the growth of TWI, but enjoyed it and went with the flow. Hey, if a bunch of naive young kids think he's an apostle or the MOG, who was he to shatter their naive misconceptions.
He always used to talk about, how in the early days, he just believed God for 50 faithful men, that's all he wanted, just 50 faithful men. I ask myself, why only 50? Well, if during the '50s, 50 men were ABSing 10% of their income, that's enough for him to live on comfortably - very comfortably. All he has to do is preach on Sundays.
One of the first things he did when money started coming in was buy himself a very nice, new Harley. One of his old timer assistants (PW? I think), asked him point blank where did he get the money for that as the ABS was to go to TWI and there was no way VP could afford it on his meagre salary TWI, his non-profit organization was paying him. The man quit when VP admitted it had come from TWI funds.
When VP died he had 4 or 5 extensively and expensively tricked out Harleys, an airplane, motorcoach, the H.Q. compound, properties and farms all over New Knoxville, campuses all over the US, properties in Europe, limb homes, only the best clothes, top dollar suits guns, leather motorcycle riding outfits, cowboy outfits and stetson hats, a corps chalet, a big fancy world class auditorium, a historical center and mansion, a Way prod. building in new Bremen, dog kennels, top breed dogs, etc., that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
As long as everyone thought that with VP, the spiritual was the most important thing to him, the money kept a rollin' in - and he lived his lavish lifestyle.
I agree the MOG status was very important to him. But he sure did acquire alot of stuff as he humbly moved the Word. I guess it can be looked at both ways.
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satori001
Okay, he did have the trappings of wealth. And he did enjoy them. I didn't know he had all those Harleys. Who held title? I bet it was TWI.
Some of the things you mention, like the auditorium, served the ministry more than the man, UNLESS we're talkin' ego.
The lavish lifestyle served his ego too. He never had a pile of money. He had a ton of privilege.
It may be a fine distinction, but it's an important one. If we could determine that he was hording those gold bars, I might see it differently.
The reason for the distinction is that it's a window into the man's character. People who are money-driven are different than those who are ego-driven. I don't know if I could define them so easily, but the two stereotypes are significant.
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excathedra
what else ? (i don't feel like paging through his book). jim had given up drugs and booze and when he went to ohio this "man of god" came down the stairs of his house with drink in hand and first thing he did was offer drinks....
there's so much more. i think heefner and jimmy and their friends in CA were doing something good. then they hooked up with wierwille and it wasn't long before he broke his word and told them they had to bring the money in to HQ and stop operating like he had originally set them up.
another thing wierwille told doop is that if you ever get accused of messing around with someone other than your wife, call the accuser a LIAR because you as the man are more important than the woman. i'll have to get the quote out. or we'll have to help jimmy get his book published or on the internet.
he's actually quite kind in his review of the facts in my humble opinion.
wierwille also said he had tried running the ministry (or getting the word over the world) with love but he decided it didn't work and fear would have to be the way to do it.
it's crazy, but i believe him.
he talks about abortion and things wierwille said way before i got involved.
--
you know, i've always said "sex" wasn't the issue in my case. i had been sexually abused about 8 years before meeting wierwille. i told him all about it (looking for help). he used that ...... now is that sick or what ?
more later maybe
i got a kick out of doop's first visit to HQ and he was VP and next time he went back, this guy was DOCTOR wierwille.
oh well
ego, money, i don't know.. .. i call it self-serviing and cruel.... certainly not "spiritual"
ps. i am not surprised to think that he was surprised how everything starting "moving" since really he had nothing to do with it
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shazdancer
Wierwille had a marvelous scam going. He could live the lifestyle of a rich man, without having to pay the taxes. Live in the family home tax-free. Fine gifts, vacations, servants, privileges. Just put everything in a tax-exempt organization's name.
Just one drawback: when Wierwille died, he wouldn't be able to will any of those possessions to his wife or children.
It didn't seem to stop him.
Regards,
Shaz
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ex10
I guess my point is, Wierwille had something going on, to make us think he was more than he was.
If he was a total grifter from the start, I don't know. It's impossible to speculate about a dead man's motives.
When he was alive, he fooled alot of us. He had something going on. Whether or not it was "spiritual" who can tell?
We can go around and around as we seem to do here, about his motives. The truth is, we'll never really know what drove him to do what he did.
Was he a good man gone wrong? Was he a bad man from the start? We'll never really know the answer, but I guess we'll keep on speculating forever.
Each one of us must come to our own resolution about the whole thing.
My problem lies with those who keep his bs alive.
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Sunesis
Hi Ex - I always enjoy your posts! I was raised under Steve Heefner and his wife Sandy, they were wonderful people.
I think you're right, VP did eventually try and control, and possibly without realizing it, destroying these men's ministries. Heefner was right to tell him to shove it eventually. VP's ego wouldn't let him have these tremendous men, in his mind, competing with him.
Though I never knew Doop and saw him from afar, and in a few meetings later, I would love to hear his history in TWI.
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J0nny Ling0
Nice post ExCathedra. And I too would love to read Jim Doops take on TWI. Is there a way for any of us to get a hold of a copy? If it is not published or posted on the net, it seems as if you must have received a personal copy. With Jim's permission, could it be scanned into your computer and then posted somewhere?
Sorry to hear of the things you went through before you met VPW, and then how he must have taken advantage of that as you say. I don't know much about you, but by some of the things you have shared, specifically what you shared in your last post, you must have been terribly used. Like you may know by things I have said, I never really experienced too much abuse in The Way, and it has taken me time to see and accept that VPW did a lot of very bad things. I hope all is well and that you ahve a great day!
Jonny
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i knew jim and judy doop and respected them very much. wish i could read his book. he was limb leader in maine when i was introduced to twi
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Tom Strange
Lingo, Ex might be talking about the book "The House of Acts"... you can find copies on ebay or amazon... I did...
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excathedra
thanks sunesis and jonny and you guys
no not "the house of acts" i owe 20 bucks to onion eater for a copy of that
:)-->
this is "when the hippies found jesus" and subtitled i think "ears to hear" also says a true story of the sixties, by jimmy e. doop
i know he and johnny socks have talked about getting it out. also paw and a few others said they are willing to help. i'll see what he's doing or wants to do since it's his story to tell
but in the meantime, here's one of the things i was referring to:
hey dear sunesis, he and heefner have been friends since kindergarten !!!!!!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
That statement has to be a "Hall Of Fame"
& ex10 I do mean that with all respect
But I must add,
before he was dead~~~
retrospect
there was no head
er ball there~~~
it may just all boil down to who gives a f any more and TWI will rise again~~~ ahahahahh ahhh~~~ hmmm
mayb just mayb GSC will threaten to close down again ~~~
hmmm
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Too Gray Now
Ex wrote:
About VPW’s Spirituality – nearly nothing was as quintessential as “Positive and Negative Believing†when it came to his spirituality. I believe the statement Ex said…because it fits with the happenings.
VP co-opted and “borrowed†from what appeared to be an eclectic bunch of sources. Not the least of which were “happenings†and “awakenings†in the 60’s and early 70’s.
Jimmy Doop and all the other RELLY early believers know more about this than nearly all of us at GSC. We all came from somewhere.
His doctrine/spirituality of carrying a POSITIVE ATTITUDE was central to the whole thing, early on. Where did this come from?
One of the places VP got a LOT of circa 1960s reinforcement about “positive confession†- was a book by Maxwell Maltz, M.D. titled “Psycho-Cyberneticsâ€. I specifically recall him saying during some “live class†that what he (VP) was teaching about positive believing - was NOT Psycho-Cybernetics!!
I think the book was on his “junk table†at the Advanced Class.
Well, the book by Maltz (that was originally published many years ago) is actually quite good. It is interesting that in the Preface of the book that Maltz speaks to the way in which his ideas would NOT work. Here is what Maltz said…
Positive thinking… “It literally CANNOT work when it is inconsistent with the self image.†In other words, you can not harbor a dark thought or feeling that you “suck†because some ministry (leader) said so - just “confess†the Word then you will be fine. It cannot work. Fear-based “faith†is a scam.
VPWs spirituality is better understood, at least in this case, by reading the book from the Junk Table than by taking PFAL.
VP decided it was HIS ministry, to take the World Over the World. (This “motivation†– of having a BIG goal- is straight out of Maltz).
If he had stayed clear of the desires to build some big gig, he “might†have been able to remain an eclectic and been able to listen to those who got the “revelation†before he did… and who (in nearly every case I have been able to read) understood it better than he did.
Jimmy Doop understood the Jesus movement better than VP. Maltz understood “positive confession†better than VPW.
Any bets about the other parts of his doctrines which became our adopted spirituality??
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Too Gray Now
I am not speaking disparingly of Maltz, by the way.
I have found his work to be much more interesting in the topic of "positive" and how that impacts our lives than anything in PFAL, Tony Robbins, et-al.
Not really speaking disparingly of VP, either. We all gotta move on.
And if being "positive" has a sour taste on your tongue, then (if you are like me, it did for the past 12 years - post TWI - because it does not work!)
Give it another look... or not.
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WeWereScammed
VP understood how to SCAM better than Doop or Maltz.
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Too Gray Now
We Were S.
Yup. He probably did know how to SCAM.
But what is the twin side of the same coin... ??
Heads ------ you SCAM
Tails ----- you are totally TRUE?
This is why I look for truth damn near anywhere...
The motive of the user does not negate the entire message.
Have you seen Star Wars Revenge of the Sith(sp?)
If the Dark side is strong, it is for a reason. Perverted good is a powerful tool.
To condemn a tool for the sake of a user...
Well... I did that, too. But there is much to be learned from tools used rightly. They are like... like... mower blades.
Unless, of course you saw the movie - "Swing Blade".
;)-->
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WeWereScammed
TGN,
Thanks for the exhortation...i'm not sure what you are talking about, but you seem to be waxing nostalgic about VP or something.
Just so you'll know, I've never claimed to be "totally true".
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Yep, the biblical Paul kinda had a run in his own life the aformentioned~~~
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excathedra
okay here's part of the quote:
ps. any typos are mine, not jim'sLink to comment
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J0nny Ling0
Nice to read this Ex, thanks. Keep it up. If it's no problem that is...
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TheInvisibleDan
A particular saying hit me like a bolt of revelation when working on ideas for a fictional cartoon savior called Wa'shua;
I must have been "caught away" to the third trailer park in the sky when I received this one :
"I'll do your sins for you
so you won't have to."
"Got a sin ya don't want anymore?
Give it me -
I'll do it"
Gosh, what a great savior we have in Wa'shua.
He'll even go exceedingly above-beyond what we can ask or even (hate to) imagine.
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Belle
If that's how he felt, why didn't he just join the Southern Baptists?? I grew up listening to that kind of shinola......which is why I left them and went to TWI. I just didn't realize I had jumped from the frying pan into the fire.
I second the thanks, ex!
:D-->
Dan, committing some of those sins is fun. Don't know if I'd want to delegate those!
;)-->
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Ham
Interesting that his successors took it one step further- they did not rule by fear, they ruled by TERROR.
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Too Gray Now
Ex... thanks again. That quote is an amazing thing. Quitting on Love. What a doppy thing to do.
You know he used to talk about Glenn Clark (Camps Furtherest Out) and Starr Daily as if they were good friends of his.
This quote is from Starr Daily's autobiography...
Again, it seems like those who VPW cited as helping him to formulate his message/spirituality - They actually seemed to grasp what they were saying - because they received it - personally.
Starr Daily
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WeWereScammed
Yeah, he feared we would learn that he was a SCAM.
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