Theories on Victor Paul Wierwille’s Spirituallity

[sirguessalot]

Theories on Victor Paul Wierwille’s Spirituallity

For what its worth, here are some recent developments in my understanding of what VPW (and LCM) received, retained and released. I’d love to see what kinds of discussions might spawn from these things. And I am trying to present these unfinished thoughts as simple and summarized as I possibly can, so feel free to chime in, disagree (constructively or otherwise), or ask me to clarify where I might not be clear enough.

(warning, i might repeat myself a bit...which i'll try to edit it out as i review a bit more)

:)-->

I believe that what eventually grew into the doctrines and institutions of PFAL and TWI, was instigated by the authentic and relatively profound spiritual experiences of VPW.

As with many spiritual “occasions,” these experiences were brought on mostly by VP’s desperation, poverty, personal suffering and seeking truth and meaning in the majesty of Bible scripture (though he was also reading quite a bit outside of the Bible for truth, it seems).

But even moreso perhaps, these experiences were invited by those many sleepless nights and all that grape-fasting.

And these experiences came to him in the form of things like: new visionary thinking, strange inner visual and audio phenomenon, rapid series of “aha moments,” and an increased ability to hold these budding fancy new complex models and concepts. After all, he was also meditating and praying on some of the richest and longest-lived spiritual texts of history (and so these experiences naturally came through that same frame)

But these experiences were only spikes in VPs awareness of things, not permanent spiritual traits or any sort of developed habits (which spikes more or less graciously dropped from the sky onto his head).

Because he seemed to lack the will, heart, discipline, integrity, and knowledge to maintain that level of spiritual clarity.

Although he also seemed to have experienced a haphazard series of small peaks and peeks throughout his later years as well...especially as he neared his mortal death.

And these experiences, being mere peeks at universal truths and not the steady plateau of what might come from a disciplined one, all that VP heard and saw in those days was then expressed and practiced solely through the limitations of his old natural filters, or those lower states of being he was most comfortable with...namely, his old ways of selfishness, pridefulness, rashness, legalism, exclusivity, racism, controlling, lustfulness, materialism, etc...

And he also interpreted his peak in the only cultural language he knew....the language of a midwestern German-American Christian farmboy/preacher (which in his earthly pride, he seemed to think was somehow superior to all else)

Which also seems far, far from the universal language-set of Christ, and more like a sub-sub-sub-district of our modern Babylonian religious linguistic confusions

All of his momentary spiritual experience was crammed thru these old filters, still clogged and encrusted with his earthly fears and taboos and shadows

And none if it was very new to the world, but simply new to him (which is perhaps why he claimed it was such a monumental uncovering of first century truths). Big difference, yet, another layer of his limited thinking projected onto his genuine spiritual experience.

And so once VP left off of his fasting and praying and other spiritual struggles and sufferings, and returned to fattening himself up like an old patriarch/pharoah, he could not see anything new of significance. Only little puffs of phenomenon here and there for him to brag about, all the while bemoaning the lack of vision he once held briefly, and that “man he knew to be” (whenever he found a window of honesty again).

Which is why, however crude and sloppy the written and spoken expressions of his spikes were, there are obviously some truths to be found in PFAL and VPW’s words. And so it should come as no surprise, that if one examines his works long and hard enough, they might even see beyond those institutions he set up, and perhaps even see more of that template he originally snuck a few glimpses at.

But its like refining a ton of ore to get a only sliver of gold. Sure, its gold, but there are many far richer veins in the vast mountain of God.

And that VP could not maintain that spiritual peak of his “glory days,” reflects strongly in his works. As with his own personal limitations, his doctrines provide no substantial “praxis” or injunction to enter the states he claimed and once experienced, though he genuinely knew they were available. His works seem to teach us to struggle and beg like he himself was, still trying to get things, from that book, and from a distant God. And so he could not provide a demonstration or evidence of much of what he said was true, because he probably did not understand how he once got there in the first place. All he could seem to do was provide yet more mythic translations and feeble models to explain his hit-and-miss experiences.

I would even go as far as to say that LCM had his own authentic peaks and spikes as well, and also without a way to maintain the plateau long enough to unravel them any further. And so likewise had a subsequent falling back, and then expression of his own series of genuine spiritual experiences through an old clogged filter

Both of them, like horny kids on Porky’s, desperately and briefly peeking thru a tiny window at something genuinely wonderful. Its just that the nature and form and manner of their seeing was incomplete (i.e. sinful).

So I no longer condemn either of these men for what happened to them and us. It was only natural, it seems. And I hope these theories might help us to see why there is such a diverse blend of reactions to "it" all, and why all them can be honored as having some sense of validity (yes, even Mike's, imo).

;)-->

Peace,

Edited June 8, 2005 by sirguessalot

[rascal]

Galations says it all VERY clearly....there are two camps of people.....*Men of the flesh* and *men of the spirit*...God tells us how to identify either.

The behaviors of both men land them squarely in the catagory of *men of the flesh*

We are warned to stay away from folks like this, we are furthermore warned that they have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....

This takes all of the theories and guess work out of it. Anything else is just another attempt at rationalizing away their lack of honor, integrety, and moral character.

What they did is and will always be considered inexcusable biblically, moraly and ethically.

They were contemptible people who worked very hard to EARN our scorn and condemnation.....this of course is what happens though when you indulge in heinous behavior.

[sirguessalot]

i'm not sure how to respond to all that, rascal

its like you're arguing against a bunch of things i didn't even write

and it reads like an angry postcard from Hell

i'll try though

I agree with what you say Galatians VERY clearly says about many things

I agree about staying away from dudes like this (though we disobeyed, didn't we)

I agree that they lose their "inheritance in the kingdom of God" (though i might disagree with what that means, and when and how it applies)

But I will disagree that all theories and guesswork are invalidated by your theories and guesswork (think about it a sec)

And I will disagree that "anything else" (i.e. what ive written) is an attempt to "rationalize away" anything (not even sure what that means. read it again please)

And I will disagree that anything "is and will always be" inexcusable, Biblically ("father, forgive them for they know not what they do," remember? not in Galatians)

"Morally" and "ethically" do not equal "Biblically," btw. the morals and ethics of the Bible changed more than a few times, if u recall. one day it was ok to condemn. another day it was only kind of ok. another day it was ok again. another day it was off limits. another day it was forgiven.

and if vp and lcm worked so hard to earn your scorn and condemnation, then by all means, continue to pay them for their services. scorn and condemn until your spleen rots out. cuz in doing so, you still serve them, it seems. they earned it, right?

btw - what does the Good Book say about scorn and condemnation anyway? (its not in Galatians, i dont think. try Romans or something)

honestly, rascal, can we not spiritually discern the subtilties of spiritual cause and effect without simply resorting to the blanket scorn and condemnation of the flesh and souls of these men? sure, they were aholes, but that doesnt mean they couldnt saw a few legit fragments of things with their ahole eyes, does it? this is kinda what i am getting at

have we not been equipped to so discern by the Good Book itself, and the Lord that bought us?

i think we have, and then some

Edited June 8, 2005 by sirguessalot

[CM]

i think the guy stumbled across some real truth

but perverted it to his own end

what actually happened in India?

why did he stop us from seeing what

he himself saw

misinterpreted what he saw-applied it to himself only

selfishness, ego, greed, madness turned to hatred

rather then patience he jumped at every chance to promote himself which leads down the wrong road into the state of being past feeling-no love of God-just a front...

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

i guess i have to keep reminding my self it;s God and His Son not veepee

[johniam]

Rascal you got just as much flesh as anybody else; is yours perfect?

[sirguessalot]

interesting, cm, re: India. cuz VPs India fixation and experiences have puzzled me. its almost like he was "shadow-boxing" something, and calling it "the work of the ministry"

and just in case anyone has missed my main point (due to all the excess verbage...i know), i'll try and restate it...

...perhaps anyone (like VP or LCM) can have a genuine spiritual "peak experience," which, for whatever reasons, does not stabilize into a plateau.

And then so naturally, this peak experience can only be understood and applied and expressed, by them, from and through that particular "God-view" where they have reached some sort of plateau (the religion of our upbringing), perhaps even stirring and exaggerating any unresolved BS in the process...like egos and lusts

i dunno. perhaps re-consider OT and NT records in light of this, and see what happens

(btw - i hope it is obvious that i am not a vpw apologist. i think the guy turned out more like a vampire, myself. its just that i am also interested in why and how this happened, spiritually, without all the cussing and sneering..though i can also understand why many of us cuss and sneer too ;)-->)

[rascal]

My flesh John??? My fruit demonstrates exactly who I am....it`s the same measuring stick ....nobody gets a free pass or is excused because they taught some scripture....that is simply a trick to avoid detection

GALATIONS tells us how to discern who/what vpw really was behind the smoke and mirrors. There is no need to speculate about anyones spirituality........

A persons fruit says it all.

[rascal]

Angry post card from hell??? Anyone who ISN`T angry as hell has not come to grips with who/what vpw and twi were all about imo....

[sirguessalot]

But rascal, isn't "speculating a person's spirituallity" pretty much the same as "letting the (spiritual) fruit say it all?"

what is the difference?

how does fruit speak?

i mean, what exactly is it that you are arguing against here? -->

[rascal]

For heavens sake Sir guess READ gallations ....It is absolutely clear...

The fruit of a man of the flesh and the fruit of a man of the spirit...no guess work, no theories needed to explain away someones willingness to indulge in evil...

Your actions tell the world ....one way or another.... either you are or you aren`t according to scripture.

God gave us that guidline so that we wouldn`t fall victim to the false prophets no matter HOW good their schpeal was....no matter how much we want to believe that they were in some way good.

I am arguing against coming up with theories that make bad behavior, low moral fiber, and lack of good character and even common decency somehow understandible and acceptible.

[sirguessalot]

rascal, i am not sure what else to say to you on this...so please forgive if we get clumsy with each other...im willing to try

quote:

no guess work, no theories needed to explain away someones willingness to indulge in evil...

but haven't you yourself just now theorized and guessed that Galatians is VERY clear on the subject, thus, explaining away someones willingness to indulge in evil as simply being a matter of "they are evil?"

they are evil because they are evil?

they are selfish because they are evil?

they are evil because they are selfish?

where is the nourishment in that?

is your argument because my "theory" (which i'll edit if that word bugs you) is a bit (and only a bit) more complex than the ole "good and evil" theory of things?

quote:

I am arguing against coming up with theories that make bad behavior, low moral fiber, and lack of good character and even common decency somehow understandible and acceptible.

why would you argue against greater understanding of what simply is? do you not want to understand bad behavior, low moral fiber, and lack of good character?

of course it should not be acceptible. but how can you help and heal and know why if you do not first understand the problem as possibly more complex than good and bad?

i thought we werent supposed to eat from the good/bad tree for knowledge

besides, where do i justify their behaviour as godly?

where do i call them prophets worth following?

where do i contradict Galatians and suggest we believe in false prophets?

-->

[rascal]

Have you even read galations chapt 4 recently?

You either are or you aren`t a man of the spirit.

There are a list of characterisitics that define you as one or the other. Period! No wiggle room.

A man of character does what is right whether anyone is watching or not....because THAT is what a man of moral fiber DOES!

Wierwille earns our scorn and contempt for setting himself up as a man of the spirit..when his actions directly would demonstrate otherwise.

Folks are evil and selfish because they CHOSE to be.....their back ground, upbringing, culture are no excuse not to behave in an honorable fashion..... that is precisely why being a person of character IS so tough.

We were given the information in order to become of the spirit....

We were given the freedom to chose whether to be of the flesh or of the spirit....

We were given the information to discern one from another, in order to protect ourselves .....

We were given the instructions of how to *deal* with folks of either persuasion...

I have no respect understanding or compassion for anyone who masquerades as a man of the spirit .... one who disarms peoples suspicions by utilization of the authority of the scriptures they teach in order to sate their lusts and fill their bellies at the expense of those they were to nurture.

Jesus had no use for the religious leaders that did that in his day....no tolerance at all...called em all sorts of horrible names...held them in high contempt. I never saw him telling anyone to attempt to *understand* their shortcomings.

I see no difference in the religious leaders who utilized their position of trust to steal that which wasn`t theirs, today or in biblical times.

Scripturally, God took a mighty dim view as well.

[CM]

If we could just take this succer apart. And see it from outside of ourselves and what we lost from our experience with twi and it's evil and it's good.

I know you have lost much rascal, God knows it and has things for you. He is just. You are not unnoticed. If in this life only we have hope-might as well forget it. There's more than meets the eye, more that God has in store for you than even your imagination can reach.

F- vpw and twi. Step outside of yourself and of their influence and to see the sources of the evil and the good brings much peace and light. It takes a lot I know. That which powered it. That which took place.

To nail that succer, bury it in a deep grave, never to be seen again. To be burned out of our minds with it's pain. Not forgotten in this life but most certainly gone forever in the next. Gone in this life will be that which has held us back from what God has for us Now. Then we can use the words that we avoided and restricted ourselves from using because they used them. And to open up the love of God again, the love of the Father and the spirit. To see the Christ in yourself that they robbed you from seeing.

Love Always

[mstar1]

Im reading behind the scenes sirg, mulling it over and think that you are probably onto something that may fairly well describe what did happen..

If indeed their were peak experiences , spiritual insights or whtever you choose to call them in many ways they were upended by Wierwilles egotism...had he sought some sort of spiritual direction or guidance instaed of being a lone wolf rejecting nearly all of 2000 years of christian learning and deciding to go it alone and HE was the man...he may have been able to reach a cogent and useful plateau with some help...who knows --he may have become a genuine mystic given some disciplined guidance...but without it all he could develop was the slipshod near faithless package deal of explaining what might happen if your lucky enough to trip on it...

[rascal]

Thanks cm, Your compassion is moving. I will attempt to understand...

I guess that I am earnest in my insistance of attempting to see the whole twi experience clearly.

What concernes me, is that in justifying wierwilles actions, by edxamining his background and upbringing, the culture of the times...etc....we are making him a little more *lovable* and his transgressions appear to be a little more *understandible* ....that we may in reality, still be being decieved, seduced, ....unable to spot the evil of the next man of the flesh with a good schpeal....

I am afraid that in minimalizing the culpability of ones choices, we will not be able to clearly see the evil coming next time....

You know, in vain is the snare set in site of the prey....

I think that is what Galations chapt 4 IS... the tool given to discern the wolves from the sheep BEFORE we let them come close enough to be devoured....further, let us... the sheep that escaped those ravenous jaws, those of us that saw the carnage of our destroyed flock, though we escaped bloddied and maimed....warn those unaware amongst us of the danger posed by that funny sheep that just doesn`t *smell* right.

Those who escaped unscathed or who were oblivious to the suffering of the rest of the flock, were not witness to the bloody carnage.... may not in reality understand the gravity of the danger posed by those wolves who look like sheep, act like sheep, pretend to BE sheep.

Sure they may have only occasionally devoured a straggler or two....

Shoot, once sated, those wolves were quite placid for days at a time no doubt.

[CM]

I want to in no way justify wierwilles actions.

But to see it as it was and is today.

But rather to see it from how it took place.

To see as it was and is. This would certainly

make us wiser. Clearing of ourselves. And washing

the filth of it all down the drain to once again

know the love that passeth knowledge. The lenght, height

depth and width of it within ourselves.

Because it is there within.

Trust not in the flesh of anyone-not even yourself.

You will know the word of life when you see it.

No man will need to teach it to you as promised for those

in the new testament. To out grow the old testament

in our minds and to see from the spirit is what

Galations is talking about.

Separating the flesh from the

spirit happens from within you by the spirit of God.

It cannot be discerned with the fleshly mind.

Many say the same things but with different motives

and spiritual influence. We must go to the Lord

and inquire. The scriptures help but will not bring

to your mind the things you need to see. Only the

spirit can...the Lord himself and his coming now

and in this day and time. Putting away the past to see

that christ. It don't all happen at once. Common sense will

lead the way to a greater spiritual understanding.

May the God of peace and love be with you always.

Love kills and makes alive that which you've always

wanted in the first place.

[Allan]

Whatever, whenever, however, whyever, to me still the greatest Word of God I ever heard !

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Wierwille's spirituality? I think you guys are giving him "way" too much credit. The guy was a fast talking grifter who built an organization by conning young people out of their money...

Did I mention money?...Wierwille stole a bunch of "stuff" from some Christian writers and teachers...and passed it off as his own insight...spirituality? Wierwille's "spirituality" should be measured by the amount of money he conned us out of and by the number of young girls he took to the back of his motorcoach...which means he was about as "spiritual" as a porcelin doorknob.

[Sunesis]

Sirguess - excellent post. As usual, very insightful and profound. I think you see many people get glimpses of grace and have no idea how to "get it back."

Rascal, I agree with everything you've said, and have always enjoyed your posts and totally understandable anger. I think what Sirguess is presenting here, is not an excuse for VP's actions, nor a black/white explanation, but more of a subtle, spiritual, shades of gray observation.

From VP himself, it certainly does seem those "struggling years" - his "vision" (snow - which I disbelieve), or whatever was going on back then were for him, his "glory years," that he never could recapture.

Another perspective is, he was a truly evil man, and God gave him a glimpse, a last chance, to walk with him, and he turned it down.

But it is certainly a different perspective Sirguess has put forth that I don't think I've ever seen here.

[Trefor Heywood]

Nobody can be bad all the time - even Hitler was kind to animals...

[rascal]

Thankyou Sunesis, I see the point Sir Guess is trying to make a little better now.

I will re read and try to understand it from that point of view.

[What The Hay]

quote:

I guess that I am earnest in my insistance of attempting to see the whole twi experience clearly.

I find it remarkable how people who were once involved in TWI are only earnest in their insistance on redefining the whole TWI experience to others, which they openly admit they do not see or understand it clearly themselves. That certainly doesn't leave one with much credibility for judging VPW's spirituality (whatever the heck that would be) or anybody else's for that matter. The only spirituality left for most people who were once involved in TWI is to either paint VPW, TWI, etc. completely with a black brush while others whitewash the entire experience. If that's what your spirituality is all about today, then your spirituality must be in pretty poor shape.

[alfakat]

blah, blah, blah, blah, ...thanks, wth...same tired old tune from you, I see...

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

veep pee was a freaking snake dressed in an expensive wardrobe