Oldies, I'm putting you on my ignore list. You've been po'ed at me for several years now since we last discussed this topic. Get over it. I don't care about your halitosis, or whatever other problems have and insults you consistently throw out. If you can't respectfully "agree to disagree" then I will not be responding to your future insults and comments.
As for you being all ears - its obvious you have not thought about the posts and thoughts others here have shared - you're just rushing to defend your precious "believing = receiving" doctrine without stopping to consider.
So, you are now on my ignore list.
Rascal, Belle and others, its quite clear God has been working on our hearts and teaching us right doctrine. Its fascinating to hear how he worked with each one of you.
What do you expect a biblically-based group to say when God's promises are not received?
God is a liar?
The Word is untrue?
"I don't know why" would be more than acceptable to me.
And I'd still not blame God, or the Bible.
Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Agreed Sunesis, Isn`t it amazing how he is willing to teach us in a way that is intensly personal for each individual....ever searching for a way that we are able to comprehend and accept?
I don`t understand why....but remain humbly gratefull that he cares enough to invest so much effort in helping me to understand.
It is based upon me doing something to make things happen.
Grace is Faith based.
It is based upon God doing what I cannot do.
It is based upon me doing something to make things happen.Quote:
Oh Geese Cool TELL ME YOU DON'T REAAAAALY BELIEVE THAT. Believing (thinking and accepting something stated as true for what a nanosecond to process it is works? Man I am going to quit my day gig and work for you :D-->
No more real work just sit and think about if things are true or not for a nanosecond. Man it wil be great I hope the pay is good. No wait I'm believing that the pay will be good. --> And the bennies too!!! -->
I hope the job is still open as after I shared your concept of true work with my employers well I'll just say that once they stopped laughing and sent me away to the little rubber padded room,I will be needing that job with you really bad now.....
P.S. I'd tell you I love You but I don't wanna make ya work to hard on such a hot day. Heatstroke ya know......
hmm is that why so many of the kids-from small to teens seemed to be so self centered and bossy? They were being taught by example that they could demand for God to do things for them so why not demand it from everyone else? And the universe centered around them too. That also could be why the adults seemed to have to work so much harder not to have bratty bossy kiddos.
FAith is knowing that GOD is the Father and Jesus Christ is our Sviour.
FAith is knowing That whatever Comes our way GOD and Christ and THe Holy Ghost will be there to sustain and support us even when it seems that it cannot be borne.
Faith is knowing that GOd greatest desire is that we spend eternity with Him
Faith is knowing that even thought we fall short Christ's atonement will cover us.
Eternal life is not a "GIMME" just because we "accept CHrist" and then do nothing--
We must be follwers and emulators of Christ We must work for a living --we must live moral lives--we must care for those less fortunate- we must be the best spouses and parents we can be etc WITHIN OUR LIMITATIONS.
Will thse works get us, who have the truth of the gospel into heaven, on their own merits? No
But faith without works is dead. For the fruit of the spirit is love, peace, joy, longsuffering.......
HOw else can we display that this fruit is present and actrive in our lives if not through works??
And the result of this is we put our trust and lives in God's hands knowing that if the answer to our requests is no or not exactly what we expected it is becuase the answer is part of a larger and greater plan GOd in His wisdom has for us.
"Grace based works"- now there's a novel concept, heh heh.
But that really is a pretty good observation, Temple Lady..
Sometimes I ask that question: what are you DOING with your redemption? I see a LOT of action going on that does not involve going door to door witnessing, running classes and generally being an over-zealous religious bigot in Christ's name.
"And the result of this is we put our trust and lives in God's hands knowing that if the answer to our requests is no or not exactly what we expected it is becuase the answer is part of a larger and greater plan GOd in His wisdom has for us."
Usually this is gold instead of the brass we were trained to yammer about claiming all the time..
Maybe I am too 'PFAL'ish, but I see our Salvation is being through Grace, The Grace of Our Heavenly Father and not of works.
I also see a place for the works. The crowns and rewards are in terms of works.
Grace gets you in the door, Works determines where you sit once you get in the door.
I am envolved with a couple men's Fraternitys. They require that a prospective member have a stated beleif in a single Diety. We pray together and we seek guidance from Holy Scripture. But each man is left alone and to his church to find his salvation. They do not allow any preaching of salvation in the meetings. Your path to salvation is seen as a private thing. Together in our meetings, we have members of many different denominations [Jew and Gentile]. What brings us together is that once we recognize that we are saved through Grace, we soon recognize that one day we will have to stand before our Creator. And since we will all be one day staiding before Him, then maybe we should try and do 'good' things with our time.
Good things without public recognition for doing them. What good deeds are seen and publically praised, may not be praised by our Father in Heaven. So most of our deeds we do for the public common good, but we do them quitely.
I find, that I think, this is a good working relationship between Grace and Works.
Yes it is strongly PFAL. But I can live with it as such.
I am also surprized that I am the first to explain this here, as I am not the only member of such a fraternity here on GS.
I find it interesting that God does not really outline what the good works in Ephesians are, at least the good works that we are called to do- just that they are prepared for us.
Before I greatly offend, or offend further- let me say that if your full-time calling is to herald the gospel- run classes, do this, do that- so be it. Personally, I can't object with that.
But I heard a local preacher several sundays back- he said something almost "revolutionary"- that maybe God calls the vast majority of his children to a SECULAR calling. Chemists, engineers, etc. etc. and that if they have the impression that they are somehow a second rate christian for doing it, the church has failed to get the true message to them.
We love to tell the story, but maybe God wants us busy doing something else along the way..
"I find it interesting that God does not really outline what the good works in Ephesians are, at least the good works that we are called to do- just that they are prepared for us."
A good observation.
Even during the Gospels we can see the confusion.
Judas had the mindset that to do 'good' included giving their money to the poor and needy. But no where is it recorded that any of the disciple's money ever went to support the poor.
Now on occasion I give to someone hitch-hiking, or 'down and out', but more likely we give to help Children's Hospitals, and to help provide health-care.
"But I heard a local preacher several sundays back- he said something almost "revolutionary"- that maybe God calls the vast majority of his children to a SECULAR calling. Chemists, engineers, etc. etc. and that if they have the impression that they are somehow a second rate christian for doing it, the church has failed to get the true message to them."
Sounds about right to me.
In the OT, we had an entire tribe called to maintain the temple. But through the NT, how many full-time ministers are there?
Paul worked. Whether we understand him to have working leather-goods [thus why he hung out with tanners], or canvas [there is some disagreement on exactly what he worked], he was still working to support himself.
How many are on salary, paid to minister and not have a secular job?
The weekly collections are explained as are to whom they should go.
My husband and I are very thankful our surgeons didn't decide to become preachers and 'heal'that way...ya know?
And seriously...
Drs and nurses and EMTs, etc., 'raise the dead' every day in hospitals and on highways and in hospices, etc. across the world...just because they do it with an education behind them doesn't mean they do anything less miraculous than Jesus did...ya know?
*****************
Galen,
This whole thing about crowns and rewards on the 'other side'...
I looked like the total fool I was when, in a study group at church, I asked, "What is this about having crowns and rewards in heaven? If God doesn't respect persons here on earth...and it's by grace and not works...why would He hand out what amounts to payment?"
They all just looked at me in shock.
Finally one of them said, "Those crowns and rewards or so you'll have gifts to give to the King. They're not for some sort of account you're piling up for your use in some sort of eternal banking system."
Sorry CW I just don't see that from scripture. We get crowns for our deeds here on earth but I BELIEVE that the catch is Those CROWNS cannot be worked for here on earth.
If your goals are orientated toward "Getting a crown" you probably won't, in my estimation.
I think that the ones who get crowns will be the ones who just keep doing the Right thing because it's the right thing and never even make the connection of "I'm workin for my crown".
Scripture does clearly say that whoever helps the stranger, gives water to the thirsty, clothes the naked etc, have in fact clothed, aided and slaked the thirst of Christ.
By the time you get in Front of GOD it's a tad late to be thinking of gifts to give-- that should have been done here on earth.
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Ham
"I don't know why" would be more than acceptable to me.
And I'd still not blame God, or the Bible.
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rascal
Wow, TWO gems in one day Mr. Hamm!
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Ham
Rascal, now I'm really blushing, heh heh.
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Ham
Underneath all this ridiculous exterior, I guess something good has to leak out sometimes, heh heh.
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Sunesis
Oldies, I'm putting you on my ignore list. You've been po'ed at me for several years now since we last discussed this topic. Get over it. I don't care about your halitosis, or whatever other problems have and insults you consistently throw out. If you can't respectfully "agree to disagree" then I will not be responding to your future insults and comments.
As for you being all ears - its obvious you have not thought about the posts and thoughts others here have shared - you're just rushing to defend your precious "believing = receiving" doctrine without stopping to consider.
So, you are now on my ignore list.
Rascal, Belle and others, its quite clear God has been working on our hearts and teaching us right doctrine. Its fascinating to hear how he worked with each one of you.
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oldiesman
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Galen
Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
:-)
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rascal
Agreed Sunesis, Isn`t it amazing how he is willing to teach us in a way that is intensly personal for each individual....ever searching for a way that we are able to comprehend and accept?
I don`t understand why....but remain humbly gratefull that he cares enough to invest so much effort in helping me to understand.
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Ham
Galen, at least that explains half of life, heh heh.
Interesting that He "sends" it.
My understanding was that sun and rain are GOOD things.
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WhiteDove
Believing=Receiving is Works based.
It is based upon me doing something to make things happen.
Grace is Faith based.
It is based upon God doing what I cannot do.
It is based upon me doing something to make things happen.Quote:
Oh Geese Cool TELL ME YOU DON'T REAAAAALY BELIEVE THAT. Believing (thinking and accepting something stated as true for what a nanosecond to process it is works? Man I am going to quit my day gig and work for you
:D-->
No more real work just sit and think about if things are true or not for a nanosecond. Man it wil be great I hope the pay is good. No wait I'm believing that the pay will be good.
--> And the bennies too!!! 
-->
I can start today......
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CoolWaters
White Dove...
You teasin' me?????!!!!!?????
You'd better be!!!!
-->
Just in case you're serious...
What part of "It is based upon God doing what I cannot do" don't you understand?
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WhiteDove
I hope the job is still open as after I shared your concept of true work with my employers well I'll just say that once they stopped laughing and sent me away to the little rubber padded room,I will be needing that job with you really bad now.....
P.S. I'd tell you I love You but I don't wanna make ya work to hard on such a hot day. Heatstroke ya know......
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Trefor Heywood
Let God be true though every man a liar...
And the Word is brought by man alas.
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Trefor Heywood
I would be surprised if many of us were not better off for puddings since we left.
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CoolWaters
White Dove,
I must be extremely dense today because I'm not seeing a point to what you are saying.
Explain, please?
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smurfette
hmm is that why so many of the kids-from small to teens seemed to be so self centered and bossy? They were being taught by example that they could demand for God to do things for them so why not demand it from everyone else? And the universe centered around them too. That also could be why the adults seemed to have to work so much harder not to have bratty bossy kiddos.
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templelady
FAith is knowing that GOD is the Father and Jesus Christ is our Sviour.
FAith is knowing That whatever Comes our way GOD and Christ and THe Holy Ghost will be there to sustain and support us even when it seems that it cannot be borne.
Faith is knowing that GOd greatest desire is that we spend eternity with Him
Faith is knowing that even thought we fall short Christ's atonement will cover us.
Eternal life is not a "GIMME" just because we "accept CHrist" and then do nothing--
We must be follwers and emulators of Christ We must work for a living --we must live moral lives--we must care for those less fortunate- we must be the best spouses and parents we can be etc WITHIN OUR LIMITATIONS.
Will thse works get us, who have the truth of the gospel into heaven, on their own merits? No
But faith without works is dead. For the fruit of the spirit is love, peace, joy, longsuffering.......
HOw else can we display that this fruit is present and actrive in our lives if not through works??
And the result of this is we put our trust and lives in God's hands knowing that if the answer to our requests is no or not exactly what we expected it is becuase the answer is part of a larger and greater plan GOd in His wisdom has for us.
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Ham
"Grace based works"- now there's a novel concept, heh heh.
But that really is a pretty good observation, Temple Lady..
Sometimes I ask that question: what are you DOING with your redemption? I see a LOT of action going on that does not involve going door to door witnessing, running classes and generally being an over-zealous religious bigot in Christ's name.
"And the result of this is we put our trust and lives in God's hands knowing that if the answer to our requests is no or not exactly what we expected it is becuase the answer is part of a larger and greater plan GOd in His wisdom has for us."
Usually this is gold instead of the brass we were trained to yammer about claiming all the time..
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Galen
Maybe I am too 'PFAL'ish, but I see our Salvation is being through Grace, The Grace of Our Heavenly Father and not of works.
I also see a place for the works. The crowns and rewards are in terms of works.
Grace gets you in the door, Works determines where you sit once you get in the door.
I am envolved with a couple men's Fraternitys. They require that a prospective member have a stated beleif in a single Diety. We pray together and we seek guidance from Holy Scripture. But each man is left alone and to his church to find his salvation. They do not allow any preaching of salvation in the meetings. Your path to salvation is seen as a private thing. Together in our meetings, we have members of many different denominations [Jew and Gentile]. What brings us together is that once we recognize that we are saved through Grace, we soon recognize that one day we will have to stand before our Creator. And since we will all be one day staiding before Him, then maybe we should try and do 'good' things with our time.
Good things without public recognition for doing them. What good deeds are seen and publically praised, may not be praised by our Father in Heaven. So most of our deeds we do for the public common good, but we do them quitely.
I find, that I think, this is a good working relationship between Grace and Works.
Yes it is strongly PFAL. But I can live with it as such.
I am also surprized that I am the first to explain this here, as I am not the only member of such a fraternity here on GS.
:-)
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Ham
I find it interesting that God does not really outline what the good works in Ephesians are, at least the good works that we are called to do- just that they are prepared for us.
Before I greatly offend, or offend further- let me say that if your full-time calling is to herald the gospel- run classes, do this, do that- so be it. Personally, I can't object with that.
But I heard a local preacher several sundays back- he said something almost "revolutionary"- that maybe God calls the vast majority of his children to a SECULAR calling. Chemists, engineers, etc. etc. and that if they have the impression that they are somehow a second rate christian for doing it, the church has failed to get the true message to them.
We love to tell the story, but maybe God wants us busy doing something else along the way..
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Galen
Hammeroni:
"I find it interesting that God does not really outline what the good works in Ephesians are, at least the good works that we are called to do- just that they are prepared for us."
A good observation.
Even during the Gospels we can see the confusion.
Judas had the mindset that to do 'good' included giving their money to the poor and needy. But no where is it recorded that any of the disciple's money ever went to support the poor.
Now on occasion I give to someone hitch-hiking, or 'down and out', but more likely we give to help Children's Hospitals, and to help provide health-care.
"But I heard a local preacher several sundays back- he said something almost "revolutionary"- that maybe God calls the vast majority of his children to a SECULAR calling. Chemists, engineers, etc. etc. and that if they have the impression that they are somehow a second rate christian for doing it, the church has failed to get the true message to them."
Sounds about right to me.
In the OT, we had an entire tribe called to maintain the temple. But through the NT, how many full-time ministers are there?
Paul worked. Whether we understand him to have working leather-goods [thus why he hung out with tanners], or canvas [there is some disagreement on exactly what he worked], he was still working to support himself.
How many are on salary, paid to minister and not have a secular job?
The weekly collections are explained as are to whom they should go.
:-)
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CoolWaters
Hammer Man!
My husband and I are very thankful our surgeons didn't decide to become preachers and 'heal'that way...ya know?
And seriously...
Drs and nurses and EMTs, etc., 'raise the dead' every day in hospitals and on highways and in hospices, etc. across the world...just because they do it with an education behind them doesn't mean they do anything less miraculous than Jesus did...ya know?
*****************
Galen,
This whole thing about crowns and rewards on the 'other side'...
I looked like the total fool I was when, in a study group at church, I asked, "What is this about having crowns and rewards in heaven? If God doesn't respect persons here on earth...and it's by grace and not works...why would He hand out what amounts to payment?"
They all just looked at me in shock.
Finally one of them said, "Those crowns and rewards or so you'll have gifts to give to the King. They're not for some sort of account you're piling up for your use in some sort of eternal banking system."
Boy did I ever feel like a fool...
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templelady
"So you'll have gifts to give to the King"
Sorry CW I just don't see that from scripture. We get crowns for our deeds here on earth but I BELIEVE that the catch is Those CROWNS cannot be worked for here on earth.
If your goals are orientated toward "Getting a crown" you probably won't, in my estimation.
I think that the ones who get crowns will be the ones who just keep doing the Right thing because it's the right thing and never even make the connection of "I'm workin for my crown".
Scripture does clearly say that whoever helps the stranger, gives water to the thirsty, clothes the naked etc, have in fact clothed, aided and slaked the thirst of Christ.
By the time you get in Front of GOD it's a tad late to be thinking of gifts to give-- that should have been done here on earth.
Just my Opinion though
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CoolWaters
Almost exactly my second reaction (after the feeling like a fool), Mo.
All I can say is to look at the scriptures again...and see what you may see.
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