Sometimes the answer to prayer is "no". Or perhaps "No, a thousand times NO." Or even, "when it starts raining gold bullion in your back yard on a regular basis, that's when its gonna happen".
"Believing" certainly does little to circumvent this.
A lot of this reminds me of Abraham's little talk with the Lord.. "If you find five righteous people there I'll spare the city".
Never happened.
Abraham must have been such a rotten believer, heh heh.
But when he quit trying to figure it out, and get out of God's way, things happened- pretty good for an old codger..
I got to the point that I was just tired and worn out trying to claim this or that, or be positive about the outcome, or trying to analyze where I was not "believing". Worn out. If the Almighty needs that kind of assistance, something's wrong, in my opinion.
I think we made believing too big of a deal. I think that without God's input, the sea is not going to part, the mountains are not going to move- even with our best efforts. I don't ask why any more- maybe God wants the stinking mountain where its at, heh heh.
That concept is biblically based and not some fantasy.
You can't argue entirely with that.
But my point is: yes, YOU have a part in all this, you believe, but if the Lord isn't behind it, the mountain will not move, ever.
I think it was taken too far. Somehow, with the proper keys, and with "the magic of believing" we were supposed to be able to turn into mini-Moses's and go around parting seas all over the place. Apparently, it does not work quite like that.
Years ago, on staff at TWI I did a word study on the word faith (as translated "believing" by TWI).
I realized it had nothing to do with "believing" but trust - giving the situation to God and Trusting that he will do the best thing. Its like a diving board - you take a leap, a leap of trust, and God will catch you. Its a leap of "faith" because your five senses, your reasoning, your logic, has nothing to do with it.
I also noticed, the "hall of believing" in Hebrews had nothing to do with their "believing." Joshua didn't say, hey God, I think it would be a good idea to have the walls of Jericho fall down - so I'll believe for this, you bring it to pass. No. Just as Moses didn't come up with the idea to part the Red Sea.
What happened was, God said, repeat, God said, I will part the Red Sea, Moses, hold up the rod.
I.e., Joshua, Moses, and all others trusted that what God said was true and had to step out. They were not directing God.
Trust is basically trusting God in every situation - letting him run with the ball.
Believing, as taught by TWI, was us telling God what to do, the way we thought a situation should be handled, then, getting a "mind picture" - and holding it, until God accomplished our desire.
Basically, we, the creature, were directing and telling the Creator, what to do. In the lowest common denominator, it made God our errand boy, we, his masters. He would do our will, if we just followed a few rules.
Once I saw this, and was able to trust God, just give the situation to him, I saw amazing results.
Wow Sunesis, that is EXACTLY what happened, and why we got such poor results.
I too quit directing God with my *super powers* of believing instead, asking and accepting that *thy will be done* and started to see amazing results as well.
My husband occasionally derides me for my lack of believing for specific stuff, and I haven`t been able to explain what I knew and understood.....gonna show this to him, it makes it all make sense.
Sunesis, I had exactly the same realization and it was such a relief to me and my heart. I just trust God to take care of things and I ask him to but I don't tell him WHAT to do or HOW to take care of me. :)--> There's a BIG difference!!
TWI taught us arrogance in so many areas of life. We were arrogantly "confronting the world with the Word" - we were arrogantly bossing God around telling Him what to do....geez!! No wonder we were getting answers and living the "more abundant life".
My prayers are much more different now.
A catalyst, I think, for me was seeing 1 Ti 1:5 in different versions. It just "clicked" in my brain that the purposes TWI taught were diametrically opposed to the true purpose of the Word.
quote:
1Ti 1:5
NLT - 1Ti 1:5 - The purpose of my instruction is that all the Christians there would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and sincere faith.
I too quit directing God with my *super powers* of believing instead, asking and accepting that *thy will be done* and started to see amazing results as well.
Rascal, I prayed several times asking God for His will to be done or for something to happen..."if it was His will" and was yelled at for praying wrong and for not believing God. Jeepers Creeps!! Am I supposed to tell God what HIS will is?????
Of course, that was shortly before I left. Now I freely and gladly put everything in God's hands and have found He does a much better job of figuring things out than I ever did. :D-->
Basically, we, the creature, were directing and telling the Creator, what to do.
Oh my lawdy, I can't believe I'm reading this.
I haveta get my spiritual halitosis meter out for this one.
Contrary to propaganda, we were taught in twi (PFAL to be exact) that it's available to believe on God's promises and that was the context believing was presented.
What's available
How to receive
What to do with it
Needs & wants parallel
God's ability = God's willingness
That formula does not tell God what to do.
Rather, it is claiming what God says is already yours, via the written word.
Even this isn't telling God what to do:
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].
It's having faith (believing) that God will bring to pass those desires of your heart, as you walk in fellowship with him.
As VP said, we don't need to pray "if it be thy will" when we already know what his will is, via the Word.
Rascal and others, if you believe you have a better understanding of God and the scriptures than outside of your twi experience, that's great, and I'm all ears and will consider what you say.
But I'm not swallowing the propaganda I'm reading about what twi supposedly taught.
Believing = receiving is kind of the opposite of "let go and let God."
One of my biggest freedom-inducing realizations was when I suddenly thought "who the heck am I to tell God what to do?'
Oldies: Remember that wonderful wonderful chapter in the holy sacred Blue Book entitled "Are you limiting God?" Bubba, YOU are limiting God when you hold up these formulas to be better than God, better than His Word. Amazingly enough, God can do much, much more than we were ever told by these goons.
One of the nastiest things I ever heard was in the early days of my association with TWI. Some poor soul had a lousy, rotten cold, and was criticized with "Well! and where is yourbelieving?"
How, about, "Gee, I'm sorry honey. Is there anything I can do? Have you seen the doctor? Here's a fresh kleenex."
This is the formula used to weed out the imperfect ones from LCM's nightmare days. If you were sick, if you were hurting, if your family wasn't perfect, in other words if you were a human being, you were believing negatively, and you were not worthy of the privilege of crossing the bridge into the promised land of the prevailing word. More people were hurt by this crap than you will ever know. And I do mean crap.
OM, I don't think anyone implied that they didn't teach what you said, we're just saying they were wrong and they were teaching incorrectly.
For me the proof is in the pudding. While I was in TWI I was starving despite trying to "believe" correctly and live the "Word" they taught. Now I have more pudding than I know what to do with since I've changed my "believing". :D-->
One of the nastiest things I ever heard was in the early days of my association with TWI. Some poor soul had a lousy, rotten cold, and was criticized with "Well! and where is yourbelieving?"
I heard VP say that the time to teach about healing is not when a person is sick, but when a person is well.
That indicated (to me) that one shouldn't knock someone over the head if they're sick.
Same is true of believing.
But still and all, I looked upon those admonitions of believing as challenges.
"If I wasn't receiving the promises of God, perhaps it was my believing that was coming up short."
It's not evil to suggest that one's believing isn't there, if one doesn't receive a promise from God.
What do you expect a biblically-based group to say when God's promises are not received?
God is a liar?
The Word is untrue?
Personally, I would rather believe that my believing is not perfect, or even falls short; than believe God's word is untrue.
Gosh Oldies, you are missing the greatness of witnessing God work when we place our trust in him, rather than the questionable results achieved when telling him what we believe he is going to do.
Bless your heart, you are then blaming youself, your own *believing* for a lack of results....
It is not your believing that fails you friend, nor God ..... but the faulty formula that you were taught to employ.
Basically, we, the creature, were directing and telling the Creator, what to do.
Oh my lawdy, I can't believe I'm reading this.
I dunno. I can believe quite a lot of things, heh heh.
Seriously though. The guy with the withered arm. Do you think when he was in the synagogue with Jesus, he had time to go back in the files of his mind, "well, lets see. What do I need to know first, well, whats available. Lets see.. what am I gonna do with the arm when I get it.. etc., etc.."
The whole deal was over in less than five seconds. No time to figure it out.
Honestly, I think any time a miracle did indeed occur, these five little "keys" were more of a DESCRIPTIVE concept. Sure, they knew what was available, how, what, etc. But only by applying the keys as an AFTERTHOUGHT do you see that they indeed were there.
I will admit that several good things came out of it. At least some of us quit asking God to do stupid stuff like kill people and worse. Not available. Some never learned this lesson. They think they can, at their slightest whim or petty annoyance, give us to devils or something to this day.
Still not a greasespot, here anyway..
If the keys are so simple and infallible, you have to explain away the ninety-nine failures when you boast over the one "success".
I have been thinking a little more about some of this stuff- "God is no respecter of persons".
Suppose you do work a miracle, and your neighbor can't come up with one if his life depended on it- keys or not, believing or not.
Ever think that maybe in the big scheme of things, life is really not about YOU? "But God's just GOTTA give it to ME" me, me me. Ptooie.
These "infallible" keys seem to cater to the immature, in my opinon. And yes, the finger points at me too, at least at one time, probably even some to this day.
I heard VP say that the time to teach about healing is not when a person is sick, but when a person is well.
That indicated (to me) that one shouldn't knock someone over the head if they're sick.
What VP said and what VP did are two entirely different things. Besides that, it's implying that a person is sick because THEY did something wrong. THAT'S FREAKING WRONG!!
And how do you explain the things that happen IN SPITE OF our believing?? I just KNEW I was going to get a ticket when I got pulled over by a cop for speeding. Was BELIEVING to get that ticket, the points on my license, have to go to driving school, pay a huge fine......I got a WARNING! :D--> I didn't get what I was honestly believing to get. I have many more examples of this than I do of examples where I specifically told God what to do and really and truly believed He was going to do it......getting my husband to see TWI for what it really is being one of them. :(-->
Edited to add:
And another thing! ;)--> That's NOT what craiggers taught. Remember that his regime did not even pretend to be loving, kind, gentle, longsuffering, meek or good.
Ever think that maybe in the big scheme of things, life is really not about YOU? "But God's just GOTTA give it to ME" me, me me. Ptooie.
These "infallible" keys seem to cater to the immature, in my opinon. And yes, the finger points at me too, at least at one time, probably even some to this day.
I think that's one for the Gems Thread, Mr. H. :)-->
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Ham
Sometimes the answer to prayer is "no". Or perhaps "No, a thousand times NO." Or even, "when it starts raining gold bullion in your back yard on a regular basis, that's when its gonna happen".
"Believing" certainly does little to circumvent this.
A lot of this reminds me of Abraham's little talk with the Lord.. "If you find five righteous people there I'll spare the city".
Never happened.
Abraham must have been such a rotten believer, heh heh.
But when he quit trying to figure it out, and get out of God's way, things happened- pretty good for an old codger..
I got to the point that I was just tired and worn out trying to claim this or that, or be positive about the outcome, or trying to analyze where I was not "believing". Worn out. If the Almighty needs that kind of assistance, something's wrong, in my opinion.
I think we made believing too big of a deal. I think that without God's input, the sea is not going to part, the mountains are not going to move- even with our best efforts. I don't ask why any more- maybe God wants the stinking mountain where its at, heh heh.
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CoolWaters
Yeah! What you just said!
:D-->
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oldiesman
There is such a thing as believing in the bible.
Check this out by Peter Wade
Confession of belief yields receipt of confession.
That concept is biblically based and not some fantasy.
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dmiller
Your definition of the difference works for me!
David
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Ham
You can't argue entirely with that.
But my point is: yes, YOU have a part in all this, you believe, but if the Lord isn't behind it, the mountain will not move, ever.
I think it was taken too far. Somehow, with the proper keys, and with "the magic of believing" we were supposed to be able to turn into mini-Moses's and go around parting seas all over the place. Apparently, it does not work quite like that.
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Catcup
I do not, do NOT believe that all believing equals receiving.
I do NOT believe that it is an "immutable law" as is taught in TWI.
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Sunesis
Years ago, on staff at TWI I did a word study on the word faith (as translated "believing" by TWI).
I realized it had nothing to do with "believing" but trust - giving the situation to God and Trusting that he will do the best thing. Its like a diving board - you take a leap, a leap of trust, and God will catch you. Its a leap of "faith" because your five senses, your reasoning, your logic, has nothing to do with it.
I also noticed, the "hall of believing" in Hebrews had nothing to do with their "believing." Joshua didn't say, hey God, I think it would be a good idea to have the walls of Jericho fall down - so I'll believe for this, you bring it to pass. No. Just as Moses didn't come up with the idea to part the Red Sea.
What happened was, God said, repeat, God said, I will part the Red Sea, Moses, hold up the rod.
I.e., Joshua, Moses, and all others trusted that what God said was true and had to step out. They were not directing God.
Trust is basically trusting God in every situation - letting him run with the ball.
Believing, as taught by TWI, was us telling God what to do, the way we thought a situation should be handled, then, getting a "mind picture" - and holding it, until God accomplished our desire.
Basically, we, the creature, were directing and telling the Creator, what to do. In the lowest common denominator, it made God our errand boy, we, his masters. He would do our will, if we just followed a few rules.
Once I saw this, and was able to trust God, just give the situation to him, I saw amazing results.
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rascal
Wow Sunesis, that is EXACTLY what happened, and why we got such poor results.
I too quit directing God with my *super powers* of believing instead, asking and accepting that *thy will be done* and started to see amazing results as well.
My husband occasionally derides me for my lack of believing for specific stuff, and I haven`t been able to explain what I knew and understood.....gonna show this to him, it makes it all make sense.
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Belle
Sunesis, I had exactly the same realization and it was such a relief to me and my heart. I just trust God to take care of things and I ask him to but I don't tell him WHAT to do or HOW to take care of me.
:)--> There's a BIG difference!!
TWI taught us arrogance in so many areas of life. We were arrogantly "confronting the world with the Word" - we were arrogantly bossing God around telling Him what to do....geez!! No wonder we were getting answers and living the "more abundant life".
My prayers are much more different now.
A catalyst, I think, for me was seeing 1 Ti 1:5 in different versions. It just "clicked" in my brain that the purposes TWI taught were diametrically opposed to the true purpose of the Word.
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Belle
Rascal, I prayed several times asking God for His will to be done or for something to happen..."if it was His will" and was yelled at for praying wrong and for not believing God. Jeepers Creeps!! Am I supposed to tell God what HIS will is?????
Of course, that was shortly before I left. Now I freely and gladly put everything in God's hands and have found He does a much better job of figuring things out than I ever did.
:D-->
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oldiesman
Oh my lawdy, I can't believe I'm reading this.
I haveta get my spiritual halitosis meter out for this one.
Contrary to propaganda, we were taught in twi (PFAL to be exact) that it's available to believe on God's promises and that was the context believing was presented.
What's available
How to receive
What to do with it
Needs & wants parallel
God's ability = God's willingness
That formula does not tell God what to do.
Rather, it is claiming what God says is already yours, via the written word.
Even this isn't telling God what to do:
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].
It's having faith (believing) that God will bring to pass those desires of your heart, as you walk in fellowship with him.
As VP said, we don't need to pray "if it be thy will" when we already know what his will is, via the Word.
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rascal
Now I freely and gladly put everything in God's hands and have found He does a much better job of figuring things out than I ever did.
:D-->
Amen and AMEN Belle :-)
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def59
God will do whatever He wills that will bring Him glory.
You don't think Jesus had a desire not to be crucified?
How about Paul, do you think he wanted to be shipwrecked, beaten and have other such misery imposed on him?
Believing is not a law.
Yes God makes promises, but he also makes demands. And it is that bottom line we must also consider in our walk.
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WordWolf
Sure explains those RED CURTAINS, doesn't it?
I'm STILL waiting for an explanation on where God promised those.....
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rascal
Oldies, those silly formulas learned in twi that we accepted as *bible based* truth .....in reality prevented us from understanding much.
Believing = Recieving is actually a set up for failure the way twi taught it.
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oldiesman
Rascal and others, if you believe you have a better understanding of God and the scriptures than outside of your twi experience, that's great, and I'm all ears and will consider what you say.
But I'm not swallowing the propaganda I'm reading about what twi supposedly taught.
I know what twi taught, and still have the books.
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def59
Propaganda?
OM, your books and mags are filled with the stuff.
vpw could have made Goebbels jealous.
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Watered Garden
Thanks again, CW.
Believing = receiving is kind of the opposite of "let go and let God."
One of my biggest freedom-inducing realizations was when I suddenly thought "who the heck am I to tell God what to do?'
Oldies: Remember that wonderful wonderful chapter in the holy sacred Blue Book entitled "Are you limiting God?" Bubba, YOU are limiting God when you hold up these formulas to be better than God, better than His Word. Amazingly enough, God can do much, much more than we were ever told by these goons.
One of the nastiest things I ever heard was in the early days of my association with TWI. Some poor soul had a lousy, rotten cold, and was criticized with "Well! and where is yourbelieving?"
How, about, "Gee, I'm sorry honey. Is there anything I can do? Have you seen the doctor? Here's a fresh kleenex."
This is the formula used to weed out the imperfect ones from LCM's nightmare days. If you were sick, if you were hurting, if your family wasn't perfect, in other words if you were a human being, you were believing negatively, and you were not worthy of the privilege of crossing the bridge into the promised land of the prevailing word. More people were hurt by this crap than you will ever know. And I do mean crap.
WG
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Belle
OM, I don't think anyone implied that they didn't teach what you said, we're just saying they were wrong and they were teaching incorrectly.
For me the proof is in the pudding. While I was in TWI I was starving despite trying to "believe" correctly and live the "Word" they taught. Now I have more pudding than I know what to do with since I've changed my "believing".
:D-->
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oldiesman
That indicated (to me) that one shouldn't knock someone over the head if they're sick.
Same is true of believing.
But still and all, I looked upon those admonitions of believing as challenges.
"If I wasn't receiving the promises of God, perhaps it was my believing that was coming up short."
It's not evil to suggest that one's believing isn't there, if one doesn't receive a promise from God.
What do you expect a biblically-based group to say when God's promises are not received?
God is a liar?
The Word is untrue?
Personally, I would rather believe that my believing is not perfect, or even falls short; than believe God's word is untrue.
"It's me oh Lord"
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rascal
Gosh Oldies, you are missing the greatness of witnessing God work when we place our trust in him, rather than the questionable results achieved when telling him what we believe he is going to do.
Bless your heart, you are then blaming youself, your own *believing* for a lack of results....
It is not your believing that fails you friend, nor God ..... but the faulty formula that you were taught to employ.
For that I am truly sorry.
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Ham
I dunno. I can believe quite a lot of things, heh heh.
Seriously though. The guy with the withered arm. Do you think when he was in the synagogue with Jesus, he had time to go back in the files of his mind, "well, lets see. What do I need to know first, well, whats available. Lets see.. what am I gonna do with the arm when I get it.. etc., etc.."
The whole deal was over in less than five seconds. No time to figure it out.
Honestly, I think any time a miracle did indeed occur, these five little "keys" were more of a DESCRIPTIVE concept. Sure, they knew what was available, how, what, etc. But only by applying the keys as an AFTERTHOUGHT do you see that they indeed were there.
I will admit that several good things came out of it. At least some of us quit asking God to do stupid stuff like kill people and worse. Not available. Some never learned this lesson. They think they can, at their slightest whim or petty annoyance, give us to devils or something to this day.
Still not a greasespot, here anyway..
If the keys are so simple and infallible, you have to explain away the ninety-nine failures when you boast over the one "success".
I have been thinking a little more about some of this stuff- "God is no respecter of persons".
Suppose you do work a miracle, and your neighbor can't come up with one if his life depended on it- keys or not, believing or not.
Ever think that maybe in the big scheme of things, life is really not about YOU? "But God's just GOTTA give it to ME" me, me me. Ptooie.
These "infallible" keys seem to cater to the immature, in my opinon. And yes, the finger points at me too, at least at one time, probably even some to this day.
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Belle
What VP said and what VP did are two entirely different things. Besides that, it's implying that a person is sick because THEY did something wrong. THAT'S FREAKING WRONG!!
And how do you explain the things that happen IN SPITE OF our believing?? I just KNEW I was going to get a ticket when I got pulled over by a cop for speeding. Was BELIEVING to get that ticket, the points on my license, have to go to driving school, pay a huge fine......I got a WARNING!
:D--> I didn't get what I was honestly believing to get. I have many more examples of this than I do of examples where I specifically told God what to do and really and truly believed He was going to do it......getting my husband to see TWI for what it really is being one of them. 
:(-->
Edited to add:
And another thing!
;)--> That's NOT what craiggers taught. Remember that his regime did not even pretend to be loving, kind, gentle, longsuffering, meek or good.
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Belle
I think that's one for the Gems Thread, Mr. H.
:)-->
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