I don't know exactly how I missed things in twi (well...I do know...but that's not the point, exactly, just this second), but there seems to be a major difference between the rhema and the logos...
And the whole "magnified thy word above all thy name" comes into play here, too.
From what I have come to understand, it is widely understood that in Ephesians 6:17 the "word of God" being spoken of is the Revealed Word: i.e., Jesus.
Also, in Psalms 138:2, it is clear that "thy word" is the Spoken Word: the same root as used in Genesis 1.
WD, see the date on that letter? See who wrote it? That's NOT what we were taught while I was in TWI. ;)--> Remember, vee pee once believed in the trinity as well....
We were taught that it was idolatry to pray to Jesus (and you don't call him Jesus - you always call him Jesus CHRIST because there are devil spirits who answer to the name of Jesus).
At one point craig had us almost hating Jesus because of all the glory he was getting (taking away from God, I guess) and wanting all the songs praising him taken out of the songbook.
I don't have any way rags left, lost em in the divorce, but I do have a boatload of tapes. I'll try to get some quotes for you.
CoolWaters, thanks so much for posting Christ's prayer. I am always amazed at its power.
And I am amazed at the ignorance I had of that power, and of the identity of my Savior for 23 years. May He forgive me.
Sometime maybe we could PT about the topic of renewed mind. I have been thinking about it for a long time. I think God works mightily in that area of our lives and it's NOT all up to us. But I don't want to (a) derail and (b) get into an argument with anyone who feels The Word of Vic is the Will of God or anything of that sort.
I remember one SNS lcm raving about how people were saying Jesus was their friend. I can hear it just as loud and clear now him screaming "He aint your friend, he's your brother".
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it.
Unless it involves talking to him or talking to people outside TWI or reading books not published or sanctioned by TWI.
Belle I saw the date on the letter and? I'm guessing you are saying you were in the Way post 83. Just keeping the facts straight here. You were speaking of The Way which includes VPW if you meant Craig then clairify. But reading your responce which I reposted here you were responding to Mike which was a quote from VPW not Craig. It then appears that you said he taught the same thing Which the letter bears as not true.
QUOTE:
VPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation."
You responded to a quote about VPW with your comments thereby including him,my point was and is speak factually don't include other people in someone elses teaching. I don't like people putting words in my mouth that I did not say I would suppose the same is true for you good or bad I give VPW the same respect that I would want.
WD, I did not become involved until after 1990, however, it is my understanding that VP once taught the trinity as well. I'm saying that from what I remember being taught VP and craig taught that you do not pray to Jesus. I could have been taught incorrectly, but that's what I remember hearing (that you don't pray to Jesus and that it was taught by VP and Craig).
Like I said, I lost all the way rags I had, including some from before my involvement, but I have some tapes and will do my best to document what I've posted. I stand behind my words. I'm not saying VP never said to talk to Jesus and I never meant to imply that, I just think he changed his tune somewhere down the line and Craig took that and ran with it.
My point was that just because VP wrote that letter doesn't mean that he didn't teach it differently at another time. Just like he quit teaching the trinity. Not putting words in his mouth, just stating the words I heard of coming from his mouth. It seems to me Craig took a lot of what VP taught and exaggerated, stretched and embellished it. Talking to Jesus is one of those subjects I remember falling into that category.
Then why oh why oh why did he allow the lie of an Absent Jesus to dominate all twi's teachings?
In the context of the class session the absent christ makes perfect sense the EKKLESIA: Bride or Body. I think it is just another case of people taking a part of a chart and trying to fit it in to the Bible. IN the session the promise of the King was dead. He was crucified, He was attempting to show the difference between the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven.
(Which by the way I believe are the same thing)
Jesus = dead
Jesus the Christ= raised and ascended = absent from earth.
Jesus Christ the head of the body = can talk with us and we with him. (Talking and worship are different)
Jesus the Christ = returning as King of Kings .... then not absent.
In the context of the class session the absent christ makes perfect sense the EKKLESIA: Bride or Body. I think it is just another case of people taking a part of a chart and trying to fit it in to the Bible. IN the session the promise of the King was dead. He was crucified, He was attempting to show the difference between the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven.
(Which by the way I believe are the same thing)
Jesus = dead
Jesus the Christ= raised and ascended = absent from earth.
Jesus Christ the head of the body = can talk with us and we with him. (Talking and worship are different)
Jesus the Christ = returning as King of Kings .... then not absent.
WhiteDove, all it really takes is some common sense and honesty to explain VP's "absent Christ" teaching, and you've done just that.
I could have been taught incorrectly, but that's what I remember hearing (that you don't pray to Jesus and that it was taught by VP and Craig).
Belle
You are correct VPW did teach that. He did not say you could not talk to him . Which is what you posted (read your post) and I said was not correct. Talking and Prayer(worship) are not the same prayer can involve talking but talking does not need to involve prayer. It should come as no surprise that VPW teachings "walk a fine line" so to speak after all he often spoke of right cutting and integrity of the word and such. Often peoples anger at the Way or VPW or Craig or some other part of the Way leads people to post or assume that he said things that he did not, sometimes it is just a misunderstanding. Either way it is not the truth. Like him or not I will always represent him honestly that is what I was trying to do here. I am talking to you now,but I am not praying to you or worshiping you. It works the same with Jesus who never instructed us by the way to pray to him. While I would agree that VPW did not exactly promote talking with Jesus he did acknowledge that you could. I was involved with the way from the early 70's on till 88 and I can say that I have never heard him say any different. And I have gone through thousands of hours of teachings and tapes over the years.
Anyway was not trying to put you on the spot just to see a fair and balanced truthful discussion here. If someone misquoted you I would do the same for you.
Whitedove your four statements in the top post on this page are the way I remember it being taught too. It''s pretty easy to get these terms or titles confused.
I think (but can't be certain) that I learned that in one of the advanced grad nights one of our branch leaders held once evening a month. Once I heard it, I realized that it made so much sense and also made so many things much clearer that I wondered why it wasn't in the foundational series anywhere....because if it was, I know I would have heard it there.
Yes Krysilis it is easy,there are some more that I left out so as not to make it more confusing the 1st 2nd and 4th were in the session on the bride and the body although not in one place together but you are right in hindsight it would have been nice to have had it taught clearer. The fact that it still remains confusing to so many is proof of that. The charts in that session have proved to be a source of problems for some time.
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dmiller
Eph 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God":
Ok -- I admit I don't know. Why?
-->
David
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WhiteDove
This just blows my mind, WD.
Did you listen to the teaching? I'd love to hear it.
Nope don't have a copy ! Besides it is for our ignoring.... I may try to see if I can dig one up I'll send ya one if I do.
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WhiteDove
You might want to read this letter. I think you may have some wrong information.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/pdf-docs/vpw.pdf
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CoolWaters
David,
I don't know exactly how I missed things in twi (well...I do know...but that's not the point, exactly, just this second), but there seems to be a major difference between the rhema and the logos...
And the whole "magnified thy word above all thy name" comes into play here, too.
From what I have come to understand, it is widely understood that in Ephesians 6:17 the "word of God" being spoken of is the Revealed Word: i.e., Jesus.
Also, in Psalms 138:2, it is clear that "thy word" is the Spoken Word: the same root as used in Genesis 1.
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CoolWaters
Then why oh why oh why did he allow the lie of an Absent Jesus to dominate all twi's teachings?
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Belle
WD, see the date on that letter? See who wrote it? That's NOT what we were taught while I was in TWI.
;)--> Remember, vee pee once believed in the trinity as well....
We were taught that it was idolatry to pray to Jesus (and you don't call him Jesus - you always call him Jesus CHRIST because there are devil spirits who answer to the name of Jesus).
At one point craig had us almost hating Jesus because of all the glory he was getting (taking away from God, I guess) and wanting all the songs praising him taken out of the songbook.
I don't have any way rags left, lost em in the divorce, but I do have a boatload of tapes. I'll try to get some quotes for you.
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Watered Garden
CoolWaters, thanks so much for posting Christ's prayer. I am always amazed at its power.
And I am amazed at the ignorance I had of that power, and of the identity of my Savior for 23 years. May He forgive me.
Sometime maybe we could PT about the topic of renewed mind. I have been thinking about it for a long time. I think God works mightily in that area of our lives and it's NOT all up to us. But I don't want to (a) derail and (b) get into an argument with anyone who feels The Word of Vic is the Will of God or anything of that sort.
Hope you are doing well.
Love,
WG
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justloafing
I remember one SNS lcm raving about how people were saying Jesus was their friend. I can hear it just as loud and clear now him screaming "He aint your friend, he's your brother".
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def59
TWI and vpw were focused on power.
The renewed mind was about power.
Walter Cummings taught that if you renewed your mind, you could live forever. (Perfecting the flesh indeed!)
The class was about power.
Believeing was about tapping into the power.
Our lives in twi was all about power, both real and imagined.
The holy spirit teachings were all about power
But Christ talked about love. Reaching out to the lost and sacrificing one's needs for the sake of another.
The church is supposed to love others and that is to be a sign to a sin-starved world.
twi was all about giving glory to vpw, lcm and now rr.
Where did God come in? or Jesus? or the Holy Spirit?
OM and Mike, you may have the doctrines down, but the practices is what we remember, making the words all the more worthless.
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oldiesman
You choose to only accentuate those practices that represented sin and the worst in people, because you want to degrade twi any which way you can.
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WordWolf
They don't have to "accentuate" those practices-just show they existed.
They want to keep people's memories from fading.
You choose to ignore those practices that vpw started and allowed to proceed
apace that are ungodly, because you want to preserve the illusion that he was
some godly person any way you can.
He was a plagiarist, and a rapist. When he was caught, he covered his tracks and
ruined people's lives to do it. He made his "son" (his disciple) two-fold the
child of hell that HE was.
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WordWolf
I didn't want this to slip by.
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WhiteDove
Belle I saw the date on the letter and? I'm guessing you are saying you were in the Way post 83. Just keeping the facts straight here. You were speaking of The Way which includes VPW if you meant Craig then clairify. But reading your responce which I reposted here you were responding to Mike which was a quote from VPW not Craig. It then appears that you said he taught the same thing Which the letter bears as not true.
QUOTE:
VPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this:
"Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation."
You responded to a quote about VPW with your comments thereby including him,my point was and is speak factually don't include other people in someone elses teaching. I don't like people putting words in my mouth that I did not say I would suppose the same is true for you good or bad I give VPW the same respect that I would want.
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Belle
WD, I did not become involved until after 1990, however, it is my understanding that VP once taught the trinity as well. I'm saying that from what I remember being taught VP and craig taught that you do not pray to Jesus. I could have been taught incorrectly, but that's what I remember hearing (that you don't pray to Jesus and that it was taught by VP and Craig).
Like I said, I lost all the way rags I had, including some from before my involvement, but I have some tapes and will do my best to document what I've posted. I stand behind my words. I'm not saying VP never said to talk to Jesus and I never meant to imply that, I just think he changed his tune somewhere down the line and Craig took that and ran with it.
My point was that just because VP wrote that letter doesn't mean that he didn't teach it differently at another time. Just like he quit teaching the trinity. Not putting words in his mouth, just stating the words I heard of coming from his mouth. It seems to me Craig took a lot of what VP taught and exaggerated, stretched and embellished it. Talking to Jesus is one of those subjects I remember falling into that category.
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WhiteDove
In the context of the class session the absent christ makes perfect sense the EKKLESIA: Bride or Body. I think it is just another case of people taking a part of a chart and trying to fit it in to the Bible. IN the session the promise of the King was dead. He was crucified, He was attempting to show the difference between the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven.
(Which by the way I believe are the same thing)
Jesus = dead
Jesus the Christ= raised and ascended = absent from earth.
Jesus Christ the head of the body = can talk with us and we with him. (Talking and worship are different)
Jesus the Christ = returning as King of Kings .... then not absent.
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oldiesman
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WhiteDove
I could have been taught incorrectly, but that's what I remember hearing (that you don't pray to Jesus and that it was taught by VP and Craig).
Belle
You are correct VPW did teach that. He did not say you could not talk to him . Which is what you posted (read your post) and I said was not correct. Talking and Prayer(worship) are not the same prayer can involve talking but talking does not need to involve prayer. It should come as no surprise that VPW teachings "walk a fine line" so to speak after all he often spoke of right cutting and integrity of the word and such. Often peoples anger at the Way or VPW or Craig or some other part of the Way leads people to post or assume that he said things that he did not, sometimes it is just a misunderstanding. Either way it is not the truth. Like him or not I will always represent him honestly that is what I was trying to do here. I am talking to you now,but I am not praying to you or worshiping you. It works the same with Jesus who never instructed us by the way to pray to him. While I would agree that VPW did not exactly promote talking with Jesus he did acknowledge that you could. I was involved with the way from the early 70's on till 88 and I can say that I have never heard him say any different. And I have gone through thousands of hours of teachings and tapes over the years.
Anyway was not trying to put you on the spot just to see a fair and balanced truthful discussion here. If someone misquoted you I would do the same for you.
Love
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def59
The lord's prayer is a classic example of the attitude we should take when we pray.
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oldiesman
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WhiteDove
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Trefor Heywood
VPW would have said that was "vain repetition" and "old testament."
:D-->
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krys
Whitedove your four statements in the top post on this page are the way I remember it being taught too. It''s pretty easy to get these terms or titles confused.
I think (but can't be certain) that I learned that in one of the advanced grad nights one of our branch leaders held once evening a month. Once I heard it, I realized that it made so much sense and also made so many things much clearer that I wondered why it wasn't in the foundational series anywhere....because if it was, I know I would have heard it there.
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krys
Trefor:
Of course you're correct in that just repeating that prayer is vain repetition. But it was given of an example of how to pray.
;)-->
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WhiteDove
Yes Krysilis it is easy,there are some more that I left out so as not to make it more confusing the 1st 2nd and 4th were in the session on the bride and the body although not in one place together but you are right in hindsight it would have been nice to have had it taught clearer. The fact that it still remains confusing to so many is proof of that. The charts in that session have proved to be a source of problems for some time.
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