A one-time donation to a tsunami fund doesn't make up for the millions of dollars they robbed from followers over the years by falsely representing themselves as God's ministers, all the while clothing Martindale in $1500 suits and Bruno Mali shoes so that followers and their children could subsist on peanut butter sandwiches and used clothing stores.
VPW and LCM made it perfectly clear to us for decades that giving to causes other than The Way International were second rate, and that REAL believers only give to TWI.
So when did they announce their reasons for an about-face on that policy?
And when are they going to announce they made grievous mistakes in handling the hearts of people placed in their own hands, and make restitution for the damage they caused?
A one-time donation to a tsunami fund doesn't make up for the millions of dollars they robbed from followers over the years by falsely representing themselves as God's ministers, all the while clothing Martindale in $1500 suits and Bruno Mali shoes so that followers and their children could subsist on peanut butter sandwiches and used clothing stores.
So true, Catcup!! I wonder, too, how TWIts feel about all these hypocritcal things they're doing at HQ. I know they're excited about "change" because they "think" it's getting "better" but if this is a one time thing and IF TWI does not tell people it's good to give to others and to charities (which they won't) then they haven't changed at all.
They certainly haven't changed, imo, because they HAVEN'T apologized or tried to make any sort of amends for the lives they've ruined.
Besides that! If you're gonna send my hard earned ABS money to the Tsunami Relief fund, then how bout I cut the % I give you and send it to them directly myself???
At least that way I know it actually gets donated!! -->
That was the line at least up through the time I walked out in 1997.
So how about some verification. For TWI to have actually made this kind of donation, it was such a major switcheroo on policy, that it deserved a prominent public announcement to all the believers at every level of the ministry.
Not only would it deserve a major announcement, but this kind of significant change would need to be explained in enough detail that TWITs would understand how such an action would relate to their own giving to OTHER causes OUTSIDE the mean-i-stry.
I can't imagine such a change in direction without public SNS teachings and rag articles explaining how that kind of giving fits within the context that has been taught for decades: the only cause worthwhile is moving der vord ober die velt.
That Belle was not aware of it, makes me wonder about whether it was actually done.
OR
If it was done, it was done without an announcement, with only certain people aware of it. That would make me ask, WHY?
Learning, if TWI did make such a donation, where is the proof they actually DID it-- where is the report that shows the amount and how and to whom it went?
If there is no proof other than having to take the BOD's "word" for it, no thanks.
Just another self-promoting lie, IMO. To curry favor among the peons so they can claim they are seeing "change" in their beloved mean-i-stry. In order to keep THAT money from going elsewhere.
See, you don't have to give to the tsunami fund, we already did that for you!
As we know its now a common practice for TWI to distribute specific information (usually false) in specific locales in an attempt to "smoke out" innies posting on Gspot. If the false info appears on Gspot then they can localize and refine their search for the person and confront them.
It also seems to me that TWI would publish this info on their website in order to maximize the publicity. Why would the donate money and keep quiet about it especially to a cause that would make them seem to be charitable in the eyes of the public ?
I think it would be very dangerous for Way leaders to mention such a donation to its followers because it conveys the idea that its acceptable to donate to organizations other than TWI itself. In the 70s and until I left in 83 TWI worked extremely hard to pound in the concept that your ABS money needed to go directly to TWI. There was no other choice if you wanted to receive God's blessings. It seems most odd that they would change their pitch.
Of course , as mentioned, it could have been an attempt by Way leaders to appear to be compassionate to the misey of others. Also , there is no guarantee that they actually made the contribution. Its easy for them to stand up and say things while lying about it. In my opinion Way leaders are very accomplished at deceiving followers to keep them in line.
Learning, I hope you're out or that I didn't get you in any trouble by posting this so prominently. Truth is, they probably would have read it anyway, but this definitely brought attention to it.
If you ever have something announced in your area like this again, please feel free to private topic it to me or anyone else on the board that you feel comfortable telling. (If you use the private topics you don't even have to give away your e-mail address, so you are still extremely anonymous.) That way they can't trace it back to you. Several people who still fellowship with TWI contact me and not one person has been caught.
I remember that a new recruit once asked Robert Wilkinson, Limb Leader of Great Britain, if he could abundantly share to different recipients, including charities.
As you can imagine that idea was not even entertained!
I cannot remember money ever cascading down the way it was siphoned up - not even a penny.
Okay, someone that wishes to remain anonymous sent me this info:
"I SPOKE WITH RICO SPAGHETTI TODAY"
Dunno if they traced the call or not, and I don't really care, but I didn't tell him who I was despite his efforts to get my name.
They DID Donate to the Tsunami Relief Fund but he didn't say how much. He thought initially I was calling from the Red Cross when he answered the phone.
He said a lot of other things I don't have time right now to type up, but he did say that they do a lot of pr related things and he gets busy with "the work of the ministry" and doesn't always have time to report everything. I suggested a page in the rag that listed everything they were doing pr-wise.
He asked what my definition of wisdom is - mine - not TWI's - and said, when I asked him why he wants to know - that he was trying to get where I'm coming from.
I confirm that the same person contacted me as well.
The questions remain:
How much did they give?
How do they plan to have their people fit that bit of info into their already-programmed decades-old doctrine that TWI is the only place they should give their money?
Or perhaps it is just as I suggested:
They did it in order to relieve their followers of the desire to give money directly to the fund themselves. That way, TWI controls how much of their ABS gets sent in to the fund and cuts their losses:
You don't have to give to the relief fund, we've already done that for you!
So how much did you give, Rico? And how does that fit with the previous indoctrination?
And maybe YOUR definition of wisdom is what TWI has always said it was:
"Never tell all you know"
That way you retain a measure of control over your people and their money.
If this is true then its actually pretty interesting.
If , as catcup proposes, this represents pre-emptive giving on the part of TWI in order to stop or suppress potential individual donations, then it would be clear that Way leaders might be concerned that followers have cultivated a spiritual conscience that includes concern for those outside of TWI. So they , as leaders, have to act like they care to prove to their followers that they aren't as bad as "the copouts at Gspot claim".
So the donation (if it in fact occurred) would be merely a token gesture designed primarily to:
1) stop way followers from giving money to outside sources and 2) to convey the idea that Way leaders give a damn about those outside of TWI (which in my experience is COMPLETELY untrue)
(As a side note: I remember when Way leaders routinely dismissed the misforutne of native american indians as the consequence of "devil spirit worhship". Oh right ! Maybe it had something to do with european greed ?)
The fact that they aren't being specific about when and how much they donated implies that they don't wish someone to follow up with the various tsunami relief accounting agencies to verify it.
Perhaps one could do this anyway to determine if TWI even really donated anything at all so why don't they just come out with the specifics. From a PR point of view it would be an obvious thing to include on their website (if in fact they actually donated).
I don't know at all the accounting processes associated with donations to the tsunami relief fund but surely there is a central agency for it which perhaps could verify the donation ?
Some donors might request anonymnity though why would TWI do that when they could get credit for it ?
And finally. If this contribution did in fact occur perhaps some who is more savvy about IRS rules pertaining to "churches" and non profit organizations can answer these questions:
Does the TWI have to declare this donation ? do they get any financial benefit for doing so ? And since its a non-profit situation aren't there disclosure rules which must be followed ?
What's all this BS about believers "have always been free to give whatever they wanted and where ever they wanted."
Now, you KNOW that's a bold-faced lie.
From my earliest days in that organization, the "tithe" was ratcheted up to "abundant sharing" and "abundant sharing" was ratcheted up from anything above 10% to 15% and beyond, and from there to "living on a need basis", meaning whatever you didn't need for the tin roof over your own head and used clothes on your own back and peanut butter for supper, should be "laid at the feet of the apostles."
Abundant sharing was a REQUIREMENT for anyone who wanted to do anything in your outfit. And "need basis living" was a REQUIREMENT for staff peons, except for the top echelon who got to pad their expense accounts and live much more lavishly.
And any motivation to give any money to any other cause other than "the outreach of the Word" was publicly and vociferously discouraged, and even attacked, especially by LCM on Corps nights.
So again, are you going to be changing your doctrine, or is this one of those things you will just sweep quietly under the rug without mentioning how wrong you've been to strongarm pennies out of poor people's pockets?
Changing the subject doesn't change the issue.
Why haven't you announced this to the general Way body of followers? "Too busy with ministry business" is nothing but a f*king excuse to avoid answering the question, you lily-livered @$$ki$$er.
You know damn good and well that you and others like you in that parasitic organization have used manipulation to force certain behavior in your followers for the express purpose of controlling them.
NOT telling them what they have a right to know, keeps them ignorant, controllable, and fearful of being unable to survive outside the organization.
You're nothing but a manipulative, fearmongering parasite taking food out of the mouths of babes in your perpetual servitude.
Containing and controlling people's behaviors by shunning and manipulation does NOT leave them "free" to give "whatever" and "wherever" they want.
VeePee always used dog training to illustrate how to train children. Well, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, you see. You've got the behavior of believers at The Way hemmed in like dogs inside an electric fence.
You've got them collared, and they have learned by experience that if a certain line is crossed, they get zapped. People already know what behaviors, what statements, and yes, what questions, will give rise to situations where leadership can make things uncomfortable for them-- or the fear that God and His people will not accept them.
You indoctrinate them long enough, use enough peer pressure and manipulation, and pretty soon you don't need a f*king fence, they are too scared to set one foot out of what you have told them the boundary is, for FEAR of what will happen to them.
IF twi donated money toward the tsunami relief, you know darn well they would flaunt it. They don't give out of a pure heart. They have to brag about it. Remember when they gave old ROA stuff to their local schools and areas? They had to brag about that....that was mighty righteous of them you know. -->
Catcup, I love your analagy. It is soooooo true! Freedom in twi is a figment of twits' imaginations. They only believe they have freedom because they are told they do. Let them try to figure it out themselves.....God help them.
What's all this BS about believers "have always been free to give whatever they wanted and where ever they wanted." ?
Now, you KNOW that's a bold-faced lie.
Yep -- it sure is. They must be preaching to the choir, or sumthin!! :D-->
1979 -1984 I was always asked to give to local *charities* by either payroll deduction, or as an outright gift. I always refused -- since the "party line" was then (as I am sure it still is today), that only "moving the Word" merited your financial backing -- like ljn said.
I was inclined to give to these causes, but then leadership was quick to remind me that there was *good* and then there was *best*. -->
That was the rule back then -- and I bet a dollar to a doughnut it ain't changed over the years one bit. :D-->
Last I heard, things of that nature were under the category of the result of being so pagan....like tsunamis' are the recipients fault...as well as hurricanes etc. That the evil supposedly present in a place brought about such catastrophies!
(a load of crap, but thats what they were still teaching when I left 5 years and 3 days ago)
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Catcup
A one-time donation to a tsunami fund doesn't make up for the millions of dollars they robbed from followers over the years by falsely representing themselves as God's ministers, all the while clothing Martindale in $1500 suits and Bruno Mali shoes so that followers and their children could subsist on peanut butter sandwiches and used clothing stores.
VPW and LCM made it perfectly clear to us for decades that giving to causes other than The Way International were second rate, and that REAL believers only give to TWI.
So when did they announce their reasons for an about-face on that policy?
And when are they going to announce they made grievous mistakes in handling the hearts of people placed in their own hands, and make restitution for the damage they caused?
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Catcup
Not holding my breath, by any means.
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Belle
So true, Catcup!! I wonder, too, how TWIts feel about all these hypocritcal things they're doing at HQ. I know they're excited about "change" because they "think" it's getting "better" but if this is a one time thing and IF TWI does not tell people it's good to give to others and to charities (which they won't) then they haven't changed at all.
They certainly haven't changed, imo, because they HAVEN'T apologized or tried to make any sort of amends for the lives they've ruined.
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Belle
Besides that! If you're gonna send my hard earned ABS money to the Tsunami Relief fund, then how bout I cut the % I give you and send it to them directly myself???
At least that way I know it actually gets donated!!
-->
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Ham
Well, if they did, it proves one thing. A leopard may not change spots, but it sure tries to bleach em..
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ljn698
it's been a long time
but if i remember correctly
they always taught that the only cause worth supporting monitarily was "moving the word over the world"
at least that was the line back in the mid to late 80's
i kinda wish i was still around whenever it was
that they made the big announcement that "at this time, the word was already over the world"
then see how fast i can run after asking "does this mean you no longer need 10% of my gross pay?"
Wah Wah Wah Wah Wah!
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Catcup
That was the line at least up through the time I walked out in 1997.
So how about some verification. For TWI to have actually made this kind of donation, it was such a major switcheroo on policy, that it deserved a prominent public announcement to all the believers at every level of the ministry.
Not only would it deserve a major announcement, but this kind of significant change would need to be explained in enough detail that TWITs would understand how such an action would relate to their own giving to OTHER causes OUTSIDE the mean-i-stry.
I can't imagine such a change in direction without public SNS teachings and rag articles explaining how that kind of giving fits within the context that has been taught for decades: the only cause worthwhile is moving der vord ober die velt.
That Belle was not aware of it, makes me wonder about whether it was actually done.
OR
If it was done, it was done without an announcement, with only certain people aware of it. That would make me ask, WHY?
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Ham
Yep. Who knows, maybe one of the "followers" accidently dropped a quarter in one of the bins at Wal-Mart or somthing..
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Catcup
I'm with CW:
Learning, if TWI did make such a donation, where is the proof they actually DID it-- where is the report that shows the amount and how and to whom it went?
If there is no proof other than having to take the BOD's "word" for it, no thanks.
Just another self-promoting lie, IMO. To curry favor among the peons so they can claim they are seeing "change" in their beloved mean-i-stry. In order to keep THAT money from going elsewhere.
See, you don't have to give to the tsunami fund, we already did that for you!
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diazbro
Well this must first be verified of course.
As we know its now a common practice for TWI to distribute specific information (usually false) in specific locales in an attempt to "smoke out" innies posting on Gspot. If the false info appears on Gspot then they can localize and refine their search for the person and confront them.
It also seems to me that TWI would publish this info on their website in order to maximize the publicity. Why would the donate money and keep quiet about it especially to a cause that would make them seem to be charitable in the eyes of the public ?
I think it would be very dangerous for Way leaders to mention such a donation to its followers because it conveys the idea that its acceptable to donate to organizations other than TWI itself. In the 70s and until I left in 83 TWI worked extremely hard to pound in the concept that your ABS money needed to go directly to TWI. There was no other choice if you wanted to receive God's blessings. It seems most odd that they would change their pitch.
Of course , as mentioned, it could have been an attempt by Way leaders to appear to be compassionate to the misey of others. Also , there is no guarantee that they actually made the contribution. Its easy for them to stand up and say things while lying about it. In my opinion Way leaders are very accomplished at deceiving followers to keep them in line.
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Catcup
Correctomundo, Diazbro.
You lurking innies who never heard the tsunami announcement in your fellowship would do well to NOT mention it or ask about it.
Could be a trap to prove your "disobedience."
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Belle
Learning, I hope you're out or that I didn't get you in any trouble by posting this so prominently. Truth is, they probably would have read it anyway, but this definitely brought attention to it.
If you ever have something announced in your area like this again, please feel free to private topic it to me or anyone else on the board that you feel comfortable telling. (If you use the private topics you don't even have to give away your e-mail address, so you are still extremely anonymous.) That way they can't trace it back to you. Several people who still fellowship with TWI contact me and not one person has been caught.
Just an FYI. :-)
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Trefor Heywood
I remember that a new recruit once asked Robert Wilkinson, Limb Leader of Great Britain, if he could abundantly share to different recipients, including charities.
As you can imagine that idea was not even entertained!
I cannot remember money ever cascading down the way it was siphoned up - not even a penny.
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Steve!
Okay, someone that wishes to remain anonymous sent me this info:
"I SPOKE WITH RICO SPAGHETTI TODAY"
Dunno if they traced the call or not, and I don't really care, but I didn't tell him who I was despite his efforts to get my name.
They DID Donate to the Tsunami Relief Fund but he didn't say how much. He thought initially I was calling from the Red Cross when he answered the phone.
He said a lot of other things I don't have time right now to type up, but he did say that they do a lot of pr related things and he gets busy with "the work of the ministry" and doesn't always have time to report everything. I suggested a page in the rag that listed everything they were doing pr-wise.
He asked what my definition of wisdom is - mine - not TWI's - and said, when I asked him why he wants to know - that he was trying to get where I'm coming from.
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Catcup
I confirm that the same person contacted me as well.
The questions remain:
How much did they give?
How do they plan to have their people fit that bit of info into their already-programmed decades-old doctrine that TWI is the only place they should give their money?
Or perhaps it is just as I suggested:
They did it in order to relieve their followers of the desire to give money directly to the fund themselves. That way, TWI controls how much of their ABS gets sent in to the fund and cuts their losses:
You don't have to give to the relief fund, we've already done that for you!
So how much did you give, Rico? And how does that fit with the previous indoctrination?
And maybe YOUR definition of wisdom is what TWI has always said it was:
"Never tell all you know"
That way you retain a measure of control over your people and their money.
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diazbro
If this is true then its actually pretty interesting.
If , as catcup proposes, this represents pre-emptive giving on the part of TWI in order to stop or suppress potential individual donations, then it would be clear that Way leaders might be concerned that followers have cultivated a spiritual conscience that includes concern for those outside of TWI. So they , as leaders, have to act like they care to prove to their followers that they aren't as bad as "the copouts at Gspot claim".
So the donation (if it in fact occurred) would be merely a token gesture designed primarily to:
1) stop way followers from giving money to outside sources and 2) to convey the idea that Way leaders give a damn about those outside of TWI (which in my experience is COMPLETELY untrue)
(As a side note: I remember when Way leaders routinely dismissed the misforutne of native american indians as the consequence of "devil spirit worhship". Oh right ! Maybe it had something to do with european greed ?)
The fact that they aren't being specific about when and how much they donated implies that they don't wish someone to follow up with the various tsunami relief accounting agencies to verify it.
Perhaps one could do this anyway to determine if TWI even really donated anything at all so why don't they just come out with the specifics. From a PR point of view it would be an obvious thing to include on their website (if in fact they actually donated).
I don't know at all the accounting processes associated with donations to the tsunami relief fund but surely there is a central agency for it which perhaps could verify the donation ?
Some donors might request anonymnity though why would TWI do that when they could get credit for it ?
And finally. If this contribution did in fact occur perhaps some who is more savvy about IRS rules pertaining to "churches" and non profit organizations can answer these questions:
Does the TWI have to declare this donation ? do they get any financial benefit for doing so ? And since its a non-profit situation aren't there disclosure rules which must be followed ?
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Catcup
HEY RICO:
What's all this BS about believers "have always been free to give whatever they wanted and where ever they wanted."
Now, you KNOW that's a bold-faced lie.
From my earliest days in that organization, the "tithe" was ratcheted up to "abundant sharing" and "abundant sharing" was ratcheted up from anything above 10% to 15% and beyond, and from there to "living on a need basis", meaning whatever you didn't need for the tin roof over your own head and used clothes on your own back and peanut butter for supper, should be "laid at the feet of the apostles."
Abundant sharing was a REQUIREMENT for anyone who wanted to do anything in your outfit. And "need basis living" was a REQUIREMENT for staff peons, except for the top echelon who got to pad their expense accounts and live much more lavishly.
And any motivation to give any money to any other cause other than "the outreach of the Word" was publicly and vociferously discouraged, and even attacked, especially by LCM on Corps nights.
So again, are you going to be changing your doctrine, or is this one of those things you will just sweep quietly under the rug without mentioning how wrong you've been to strongarm pennies out of poor people's pockets?
Changing the subject doesn't change the issue.
Why haven't you announced this to the general Way body of followers? "Too busy with ministry business" is nothing but a f*king excuse to avoid answering the question, you lily-livered @$$ki$$er.
You know damn good and well that you and others like you in that parasitic organization have used manipulation to force certain behavior in your followers for the express purpose of controlling them.
NOT telling them what they have a right to know, keeps them ignorant, controllable, and fearful of being unable to survive outside the organization.
You're nothing but a manipulative, fearmongering parasite taking food out of the mouths of babes in your perpetual servitude.
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Catcup
Containing and controlling people's behaviors by shunning and manipulation does NOT leave them "free" to give "whatever" and "wherever" they want.
VeePee always used dog training to illustrate how to train children. Well, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, you see. You've got the behavior of believers at The Way hemmed in like dogs inside an electric fence.
You've got them collared, and they have learned by experience that if a certain line is crossed, they get zapped. People already know what behaviors, what statements, and yes, what questions, will give rise to situations where leadership can make things uncomfortable for them-- or the fear that God and His people will not accept them.
You indoctrinate them long enough, use enough peer pressure and manipulation, and pretty soon you don't need a f*king fence, they are too scared to set one foot out of what you have told them the boundary is, for FEAR of what will happen to them.
That's not Freedom. It's a f*king prison.
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Ham
Tell us how you really feel, Catcup, heh heh.
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Nottawayfer
IF twi donated money toward the tsunami relief, you know darn well they would flaunt it. They don't give out of a pure heart. They have to brag about it. Remember when they gave old ROA stuff to their local schools and areas? They had to brag about that....that was mighty righteous of them you know.
-->
Catcup, I love your analagy. It is soooooo true! Freedom in twi is a figment of twits' imaginations. They only believe they have freedom because they are told they do. Let them try to figure it out themselves.....God help them.
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dmiller
Yep -- it sure is. They must be preaching to the choir, or sumthin!!
:D-->
1979 -1984 I was always asked to give to local *charities* by either payroll deduction, or as an outright gift. I always refused -- since the "party line" was then (as I am sure it still is today), that only "moving the Word" merited your financial backing -- like ljn said.
I was inclined to give to these causes, but then leadership was quick to remind me that there was *good* and then there was *best*.
-->
That was the rule back then -- and I bet a dollar to a doughnut it ain't changed over the years one bit.
:D-->
David
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Nottawayfer
Good and Best....that was the biggest line of bull.... we were ever fed.
I hate that I fell for that; thank God He made me smarter today.
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LornaDoone
They probably sent in 25.00.
And all this fuss.
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DaddyHoundog
Last I heard, things of that nature were under the category of the result of being so pagan....like tsunamis' are the recipients fault...as well as hurricanes etc. That the evil supposedly present in a place brought about such catastrophies!
(a load of crap, but thats what they were still teaching when I left 5 years and 3 days ago)
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