All followers on the field.......the non-corps, the corps, the newbies, the old-timers, part-time region secretaries and whoever else........are the EXPLOITED.
And, the beneficiaries of this exploitation......sit at their desks at hq and wanting this system to continue for decades to come.
I need a minute here....I need some input from you and many others.
I was one of those people sitting at a desk at HQ...for many, many years....at a whole bunch of different levels.
I left twi 5 years ago......HQ in 1994. Each and every minute of each and every day I was there, I BELIEVED (delusional..yes...but I did believe it) that I was doing the will of God.
Most of those pt region and limb secretaries were personal friends of mine. I went to the wall for them....and they will.....to this day, tell you that.
I am not at all sure that all people that did their time at HQ were vile, manipulators. I may have been, and over and over I have said that....but I don't think I was. If I was.....it was delusional and I have repeatedly asked forgiveness.
I think what I am saying is that this is all very complicated......a snowball set in motion decades ago.....that decimated a large amount of people that were just in close proximaty.
WHAT I AM NOT SAYING......
I totally believe that there are and were people that were into this whole thing for the power and the money and the .....well.....what else is left.
What I am saying is.......how do those of us caught up in it all......in every level......get past it?
I am not at all sure that all people that did their time at HQ were vile, manipulators. I may have been, and over and over I have said that....but I don't think I was. If I was.....it was delusional and I have repeatedly asked forgiveness.
Who said anything about vile? about manipulators?
What I am saying is there are staffers who are beneficiaries of this exploitation. Maybe it's kinda temporary.....maybe it isn't.
Probably some like rural living. Many would claim to be working at hq cause "God wants them there"...... but I think that they are beneficiaries of the exploitation. Maybe not so much financial beneficiaries..... add some perks, some recognition, some ego-stroking, some "spiritually classified info," some whatever........and SOME STAFF WILL NOT LEAVE.
Yeah, it's probably very complicated......but I don't have time to write a book. Just want to give some
I dunno Sky.........I dont know that I am following you..........
Or that you are correct in this. Lay it all out there guy///////
SAY WHAT YOU MEAN ... and explain what you are talking about. I personally can equate exactly 5 people to what you are describing.
My point is this......what we post must be rooted in documentable history. I can may agree with you until the cows come home....and do. What you and I must do......is be able to document our point of view as THE TRUTH.
And, the beneficiaries of this exploitation......sit at their desks at hq and wanting this system to continue for decades to come.
Yep -- so true. Am guessing the *leadership* at hdqtrs never did learn the lesson from Acts.
quote:
Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Acts 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Acts 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
The *thumbs* aren't even serving tables like the original 12 did, much less doing the ministry of the Word. What's the word I'm looking for?? uhhhhmmm, oh yea, GRAVY JOB.
Friend of mine used to say :
If ya want the gravy, ya got to pick up the spoon!
The *thumbs* don't even want to pick up the spoon -- choosing to be spoon-fed instead.
And Radar -- I am not speaking of any one specific person, since I know there were *good hearts* there at hdqtrs along with those that were less than good.
I am commenting on the original post, where there was one set of rules for those in the field, and another for those who weren't.
My *gravy job* comment was directed at the top 1, 2, or 3 folks that seem to benefit the most from all the abs, the work, etc., from "joe believer", and then sitting there *lording* it over all the others.
I am commenting on the original post, where there was one set of rules for those in the field, and another for those who weren't.
My *gravy job* comment was directed at the top 1, 2, or 3 folks that seem to benefit the most from all the abs, the work, etc., from "joe believer", and then sitting there *lording* it over all the others.
Oh......I think the "gravy job" comment extends much further than that. How about Joe Coxlter, Nxnxy Hxrnx, Gxry Frxdrxck, Jxhn Rxyxolds, Dxnna Mxrtindxle, etc. etc. etc.????
Why do these people stay at hq??? I strongly suggest that it falls in the realm of..... beneficiaries of the exploitation. Who you know and who you hob-knob with is of great interest. Who wants to snuggle up to more perks? more inside-info? playing one's cards to be indispensible???
How could they ever get rid of John Lxnder??? This guy has them over a barrel with all he knows. IMO he is indispensible.
Region guys are axed....year after year. Hmmmmmmmm......the "top position" on the field is NOT indispensible??? Yet, staffers can stay for decades......and DO!
Being accountable for work stuff....and NOT PEOPLES' LIVES AND DECISIONS is a much more favorable position. Field people are like jugglers at a circus......staffers are like the ticket-takers at the circus.
There is NO COMPARISON to have this situation and twi's EXPLOITATION some 2000 years later.
The CENTRALIZATION of power, authority, money and excathedra policies that emanate from twi's hq is a far, far cry from God's original intent. Such exploitation and oppression must anger God Almighty.
There is NO COMPARISON to have this situation and twi's EXPLOITATION some 2000 years later.
Ha! My "comparision" of the two was made to point out that in actuality there is "no comparision" between Acts 6 and twi of today -- whereas in reality, there should be every comparision -- if twi were really interested in doing the *work of the Ministry*, instead of serving their own purposes.
Dmiller: Michael Fort is Howard Allen's son in law. Don't know what corps he was in or what he's doing now but at the time I left (1994) he was the trunk cordo.
Radar wrote: I am not at all sure that all people that did their time at HQ were vile, manipulators. I may have been, and over and over I have said that....but I don't think I was. If I was.....it was delusional and I have repeatedly asked forgiveness.
I think what I am saying is that this is all very complicated......a snowball set in motion decades ago.....that decimated a large amount of people that were just in close proximaty.
I'd like to add that many of us who left early, spent years of of guilt and self-condemnation, still believing that we had walked away from the only true family of God. As Radar said, it's complicated... I suspect we should let God judge the hearts of men.
Michael Fort is Howard Allen's son in law. Don't know what corps he was in or what he's doing now but at the time I left (1994) he was the trunk cordo.
John -- Thanks. :)--> I had never heard of him before.
Michael Fort is a graduate of the 8th Corps. He is now the "limb" coordinator of Indiana, if indeed there is a real limb in Indiana.
He WAS a wonderful person to me during my time in-residence and my interim year and he loved God, His Word, and yes, the ministry. He was treated, I have heard, roughly by LCM, and yes, has done some things I have known about personally that make me wonder what happened to the kind, understanding Michael Fort I knew.
I totally believe that there are and were people that were into this whole thing for the power and the money and the .....well.....what else is left.
What I am saying is.......how do those of us caught up in it all......in every level......get past it?
ROR
How to get *past it all* is the million dollar question, and unfortunately, my answer is only worth about 2 cents!! :D-->
Seriously -- Laleo posted this in the doctinal forum, on the pfal thread (from page 13), and it makes perfect sense.
quote:
originally posted by Mike:
But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do? What would be your suggestion that I use to fill such a gap in my life? Search the Yellow Pages for a cheap psychologist? No thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by laleo:
You'll read a couple of self-help books and give yourself a pep talk each morning, and that will be enough. And if it isn't enough, you'll spend the money and go to a counselor and you'll be grateful you did. You'll volunteer for Big Brothers, and go to the library to teach kids how to read. You'll serve lunch at the Soup Kitchen, and donate blood. You'll take up an instrument and join a rock band, an orchestra, a string ensemble. You'll write (but never finish) your first novel. You'll fall in love and raise kids and fall out of love and the kids will be grown and maybe you'll fall back in love. Or maybe not. You'll meet people. You'll make and lose friends, and the people you care about will get sick and die.
You'll play poker. You'll go on hikes and build a bird house and plant an herb garden and catch butterflies. You'll take up photography and sky diving and Renaisance literature and white water rafting and meet up with the guys in the morning before work for a quick game of basketball at the middle school gym. You'll sign up for a class at the Community College. You'll post at GreaseSpot. Your life won't be perfect because no life is perfect. You'll deal with it. You'll know joy and anger and forgiveness and longing, and you won't berate yourself for feeling all those things. And everything you've done up to this point will be part of your life experience, and you'll find the good in it all. Or not. You'll find God in all sorts of places you never thought to look, and occasionally you'll even find the meaning of life. You'll be just fine.
To which I agree. Getting *past it all* means doing things that were forbidden before. Go to a church that teaches something not propounded by twi (if you're so inclined). Buy, listen to, and keep CD's of groups that play secular music, and not music that is ministry endorsed. Go visit your neighbors, but only to say "hi", and NOT to witness. Spend time on the internet, at the local library, at the movies, in a local club seeing live music, be a part of your community -- and not at odds with it.
I used to go to jam sessions every week, and was castigated for it by twi folks here in town, cause I missed twig while doing so. Well, for a while I gave in to twi demands, but guess what was the first thing I did after I got out??
I tuned up the fiddle, and rosined up the bow, and re-claimed my life. That's how I got *past it all*. You can do the same, if you follow and pursue your interests, and just do as you please. As Laleo said -- God is found (and honored) in many different venues.
But then again -- I think you know all that already. :)-->
Michael Fort is a graduate of the 8th Corps. He is now the "limb" coordinator of Indiana, if indeed there is a real limb in Indiana.
He WAS a wonderful person to me during my time in-residence and my interim year and he loved God, His Word, and yes, the ministry. He was treated, I have heard, roughly by LCM, and yes, has done some things I have known about personally that make me wonder what happened to the kind, understanding Michael Fort I knew.
From what I've heard......Michael and Cindy are NO LONGER on twi's payroll and requested to step down to find secular employment.
The list of such occurrences continues. Apparently, there is a growing concern of jitters amongst region/limb and corps leaders about what lies ahead for twi. Understandable so!
From the "field perspective"........the evidence is growing that around 35 states or more are shuffling along with very little twi-activity. Of course, the corporate view displays the manicured lawns and pretty flower beds and people on the grounds......BUT don't be fooled, most of those strolling around are the staff folks.
Well, the Forts can't exactly count on any kind of inheritance from Cind*'s parents, can they? I mean, the All*n's are surely living on a "need basis", don't own their own home and probably only JUST started the "retirement" plan that TWI so generously (gag) began offering to people. They'll be doing well to manage to stay in that house and pay their healthcare costs with what little social security they have coming to them.
Radar, I think Sky is saying that the people at hq are more "protected" in a sense. They can stay there until they become a financial burden on TWI. They have an "easier" schedule compared to the "field" folks and are sheltered from "real life" in a way. They don't have to worry about lunch, home repairs, paying rent, attending fellowship on a regular basis, going out witnessing, major grocery shopping, bill paying, rush hour traffic..... "real world" stress and time constraints. The higher up you are on the hq corporate ladder, the more insulated you are from these things. Regardless of the "heart" behind the staff positions, in the whole scheme of TWI, it IS a preferred position in some ways. The "field" personnel are working their butts off (the non-paid "field personnel", not the free-loaders), but they aren't getting paid for it and given the eye-opening experiences of the past few years, they aren't really working all that hard anymore and can't possibly be motivated to add more people to their responsibilities because that's a lot more time and resources required of them when they're already worked to death, under-appreciated and not even getting paid for all that they do.
"Field Freeloaders" like the Moneyhands, aren't secure in their positions. They HAVE to perform because their secure paycheck and lavish lifestyle is dependent on it. Even so, they still don't have it as easy, schedule wise as the hq staffers, but they do have more freedoms than the staffers. BUT, again, if they become too much of a burden, less loyal or less performing, they could find themselves stuck out on the street in a "branch" position and struggling to stay off welfare.
Well, they always told us there's no "free lunch."
It might be "easier" to get paid by TWI by being at HQ, or full time on the field, but in the long run, there's a price to pay.
Few marketable job skills, no retirement savings, having to jump at the commands of those above you.....
All of these have been covered here before.
I confess, I used to dream of how great it would be to be one of the "higher-ups" but I was "unfortunate" enough to always be cast out into the world to fend for myself.
Now I look at it as a total blessing. Every struggle I had to go through to learn how to survive in "the world' only made me stronger. The people "on the field" have to learn how to trust God to get their needs met, as well as gain people skills and job skills along the way.
The top of TWI glean off of those who are actually producing and sending in the fruits of their labor. When these producers see the light, they can split out and they'll be ok. They have nothing to lose. They gain their freedom and they can now take back 10% to 20% of their income!
People that have been surviving off the ABS of those "on the field" have more of an adjustment to make once they break free from TWI.
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dmiller
Ah yes -- the *haves*, and the *have-nots*. The *privilidged*, and the *down trodden*. The *upper class*, and the *no-class*. The *thumbs*, and those
*under the thumb*.
Things never change, do they?
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skyrider
Nope.....never changes.
Yeah, the "exploiters" and the "exploited."
All followers on the field.......the non-corps, the corps, the newbies, the old-timers, part-time region secretaries and whoever else........are the EXPLOITED.
And, the beneficiaries of this exploitation......sit at their desks at hq and wanting this system to continue for decades to come.
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Radar OReilly
Wait a minute Sky......
I need a minute here....I need some input from you and many others.
I was one of those people sitting at a desk at HQ...for many, many years....at a whole bunch of different levels.
I left twi 5 years ago......HQ in 1994. Each and every minute of each and every day I was there, I BELIEVED (delusional..yes...but I did believe it) that I was doing the will of God.
Most of those pt region and limb secretaries were personal friends of mine. I went to the wall for them....and they will.....to this day, tell you that.
I am not at all sure that all people that did their time at HQ were vile, manipulators. I may have been, and over and over I have said that....but I don't think I was. If I was.....it was delusional and I have repeatedly asked forgiveness.
I think what I am saying is that this is all very complicated......a snowball set in motion decades ago.....that decimated a large amount of people that were just in close proximaty.
WHAT I AM NOT SAYING......
I totally believe that there are and were people that were into this whole thing for the power and the money and the .....well.....what else is left.
What I am saying is.......how do those of us caught up in it all......in every level......get past it?
ROR
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skyrider
Who said anything about vile? about manipulators?
What I am saying is there are staffers who are beneficiaries of this exploitation. Maybe it's kinda temporary.....maybe it isn't.
Probably some like rural living. Many would claim to be working at hq cause "God wants them there"...... but I think that they are beneficiaries of the exploitation. Maybe not so much financial beneficiaries..... add some perks, some recognition, some ego-stroking, some "spiritually classified info," some whatever........and SOME STAFF WILL NOT LEAVE.
Yeah, it's probably very complicated......but I don't have time to write a book. Just want to give some
glimpses to what I've seen.
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Radar OReilly
I dunno Sky.........I dont know that I am following you..........
Or that you are correct in this. Lay it all out there guy///////
SAY WHAT YOU MEAN ... and explain what you are talking about. I personally can equate exactly 5 people to what you are describing.
My point is this......what we post must be rooted in documentable history. I can may agree with you until the cows come home....and do. What you and I must do......is be able to document our point of view as THE TRUTH.
ror
Radar
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dmiller
Yep -- so true. Am guessing the *leadership* at hdqtrs never did learn the lesson from Acts.
The *thumbs* aren't even serving tables like the original 12 did, much less doing the ministry of the Word. What's the word I'm looking for?? uhhhhmmm, oh yea, GRAVY JOB.
Friend of mine used to say :
If ya want the gravy, ya got to pick up the spoon!
The *thumbs* don't even want to pick up the spoon -- choosing to be spoon-fed instead.
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Radar OReilly
D Miller......
You have brought forward a subject long needing an answer......
Michael Fort..............
WHAT SAY YOU THOU??????????//
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dmiller
And Radar -- I am not speaking of any one specific person, since I know there were *good hearts* there at hdqtrs along with those that were less than good.
I am commenting on the original post, where there was one set of rules for those in the field, and another for those who weren't.
My *gravy job* comment was directed at the top 1, 2, or 3 folks that seem to benefit the most from all the abs, the work, etc., from "joe believer", and then sitting there *lording* it over all the others.
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dmiller
Who is Michael Fort..... ??
-->
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skyrider
Oh......I think the "gravy job" comment extends much further than that. How about Joe Coxlter, Nxnxy Hxrnx, Gxry Frxdrxck, Jxhn Rxyxolds, Dxnna Mxrtindxle, etc. etc. etc.????
Why do these people stay at hq??? I strongly suggest that it falls in the realm of..... beneficiaries of the exploitation. Who you know and who you hob-knob with is of great interest. Who wants to snuggle up to more perks? more inside-info? playing one's cards to be indispensible???
How could they ever get rid of John Lxnder??? This guy has them over a barrel with all he knows. IMO he is indispensible.
Region guys are axed....year after year. Hmmmmmmmm......the "top position" on the field is NOT indispensible??? Yet, staffers can stay for decades......and DO!
Being accountable for work stuff....and NOT PEOPLES' LIVES AND DECISIONS is a much more favorable position. Field people are like jugglers at a circus......staffers are like the ticket-takers at the circus.
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skyrider
And....with regards to the Acts 6 record......
There is NO COMPARISON to have this situation and twi's EXPLOITATION some 2000 years later.
The CENTRALIZATION of power, authority, money and excathedra policies that emanate from twi's hq is a far, far cry from God's original intent. Such exploitation and oppression must anger God Almighty.
Am I making myself clear?????
:D-->
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dmiller
Ha! My "comparision" of the two was made to point out that in actuality there is "no comparision" between Acts 6 and twi of today -- whereas in reality, there should be every comparision -- if twi were really interested in doing the *work of the Ministry*, instead of serving their own purposes.
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skyrider
Point taken.
Comparing a godly situation like in Acts 6 with an exploiting situation like twi is like COMPARING APPLES AND ORANGES. Where do you start????????
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johniam
Dmiller: Michael Fort is Howard Allen's son in law. Don't know what corps he was in or what he's doing now but at the time I left (1994) he was the trunk cordo.
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Jim
I'd like to add that many of us who left early, spent years of of guilt and self-condemnation, still believing that we had walked away from the only true family of God. As Radar said, it's complicated... I suspect we should let God judge the hearts of men.
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dmiller
John -- Thanks.
:)--> I had never heard of him before.
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ToadFriend
Michael Fort is a graduate of the 8th Corps. He is now the "limb" coordinator of Indiana, if indeed there is a real limb in Indiana.
He WAS a wonderful person to me during my time in-residence and my interim year and he loved God, His Word, and yes, the ministry. He was treated, I have heard, roughly by LCM, and yes, has done some things I have known about personally that make me wonder what happened to the kind, understanding Michael Fort I knew.
Sigh.
TF -- who doesn't mean to derail the thread
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dmiller
How to get *past it all* is the million dollar question, and unfortunately, my answer is only worth about 2 cents!!
:D-->
Seriously -- Laleo posted this in the doctinal forum, on the pfal thread (from page 13), and it makes perfect sense.
To which I agree. Getting *past it all* means doing things that were forbidden before. Go to a church that teaches something not propounded by twi (if you're so inclined). Buy, listen to, and keep CD's of groups that play secular music, and not music that is ministry endorsed. Go visit your neighbors, but only to say "hi", and NOT to witness. Spend time on the internet, at the local library, at the movies, in a local club seeing live music, be a part of your community -- and not at odds with it.
I used to go to jam sessions every week, and was castigated for it by twi folks here in town, cause I missed twig while doing so. Well, for a while I gave in to twi demands, but guess what was the first thing I did after I got out??
I tuned up the fiddle, and rosined up the bow, and re-claimed my life.
That's how I got *past it all*. You can do the same, if you follow and pursue your interests, and just do as you please. As Laleo said -- God is found (and honored) in many different venues.
But then again -- I think you know all that already.
:)-->
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skyrider
From what I've heard......Michael and Cindy are NO LONGER on twi's payroll and requested to step down to find secular employment.
The list of such occurrences continues. Apparently, there is a growing concern of jitters amongst region/limb and corps leaders about what lies ahead for twi. Understandable so!
From the "field perspective"........the evidence is growing that around 35 states or more are shuffling along with very little twi-activity. Of course, the corporate view displays the manicured lawns and pretty flower beds and people on the grounds......BUT don't be fooled, most of those strolling around are the staff folks.
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Belle
Well, the Forts can't exactly count on any kind of inheritance from Cind*'s parents, can they? I mean, the All*n's are surely living on a "need basis", don't own their own home and probably only JUST started the "retirement" plan that TWI so generously (gag) began offering to people. They'll be doing well to manage to stay in that house and pay their healthcare costs with what little social security they have coming to them.
Radar, I think Sky is saying that the people at hq are more "protected" in a sense. They can stay there until they become a financial burden on TWI. They have an "easier" schedule compared to the "field" folks and are sheltered from "real life" in a way. They don't have to worry about lunch, home repairs, paying rent, attending fellowship on a regular basis, going out witnessing, major grocery shopping, bill paying, rush hour traffic..... "real world" stress and time constraints. The higher up you are on the hq corporate ladder, the more insulated you are from these things. Regardless of the "heart" behind the staff positions, in the whole scheme of TWI, it IS a preferred position in some ways. The "field" personnel are working their butts off (the non-paid "field personnel", not the free-loaders), but they aren't getting paid for it and given the eye-opening experiences of the past few years, they aren't really working all that hard anymore and can't possibly be motivated to add more people to their responsibilities because that's a lot more time and resources required of them when they're already worked to death, under-appreciated and not even getting paid for all that they do.
"Field Freeloaders" like the Moneyhands, aren't secure in their positions. They HAVE to perform because their secure paycheck and lavish lifestyle is dependent on it. Even so, they still don't have it as easy, schedule wise as the hq staffers, but they do have more freedoms than the staffers. BUT, again, if they become too much of a burden, less loyal or less performing, they could find themselves stuck out on the street in a "branch" position and struggling to stay off welfare.
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Steve!
By the way, Sharon, welcome to Greasespot!
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Oakspear
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outandabout
Well, they always told us there's no "free lunch."
It might be "easier" to get paid by TWI by being at HQ, or full time on the field, but in the long run, there's a price to pay.
Few marketable job skills, no retirement savings, having to jump at the commands of those above you.....
All of these have been covered here before.
I confess, I used to dream of how great it would be to be one of the "higher-ups" but I was "unfortunate" enough to always be cast out into the world to fend for myself.
Now I look at it as a total blessing. Every struggle I had to go through to learn how to survive in "the world' only made me stronger. The people "on the field" have to learn how to trust God to get their needs met, as well as gain people skills and job skills along the way.
The top of TWI glean off of those who are actually producing and sending in the fruits of their labor. When these producers see the light, they can split out and they'll be ok. They have nothing to lose. They gain their freedom and they can now take back 10% to 20% of their income!
People that have been surviving off the ABS of those "on the field" have more of an adjustment to make once they break free from TWI.
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oldiesman
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