Jerry, did you read the earlier passages of scripture from Judges chapter 19?
Yes Mark, I'm familiar with the story. And I read your post. I'm not disputing the fact that the men initiated a plan of action as soon as they found out about what had happened. What I am questioning is your assumption that there was a kinder, gentler option that God had in mind and that He would certainly have revealed it if they had only asked the right question.
They did pray for guidance. To assume that God only reveals his true will if we 1) pray and 2) ask precisely the right question when we do is, imho, a bit of a stretch.
I realize I am essentially poking my nose into what was already a pretty good thread as a naysayer. I have a bad habit of doing that. So let me apologize for nitpicking. But..let's take another look at Judges 20:18
quote:
And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up first. (emphasis added)
If God's will was for a nonviolent approach, as you say, why couldn't this passage read as follows?
"And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the Lord said, "None of you shall go up for ye are all hard-hearted buttheads. No more blood shall be spilled in Israel this day. Sit ye here and pray for your brethren in Gilead that I may deliver them from the hard-heartedness of the men of Belial that be among them. "
Or words to that effect. God corrected other people when they were heading in the wrong direction. I Samuel 14:36 & 37 depict a situation similar to the one you are hypothesizing. King Saul was about to launch an attack on the Phillistines, but was "out of fellowship". He asked counsel of God, just as the men of Israel did before attacking Gibeah.
quote:
And Saul asked counsel of God, Shall I go down after the Philistines? wilt thou deliver them into the hand of Israel? But he answered him not that day.
38 And Saul said, Draw ye near hither, all the chief of the people: and know and see wherein this sin hath been this day.
Because there was a fly in the ointment, God gave no answer to Saul's prayer. In response to the silence, Saul looked inward and decided to find out why God was not providing guidance.
Therefore, it seems logical that if the men of Israel were out of step with God's will, he would have treated their intreaty with the same silence and caused the kind of soul-searching you presume would have changed the course of events.
The other aspect of this that hasn't been addressed is the fact that the passage indicates that the root of the problem in Gibeah was the presence of "men of Belial". I don't propose that TWI's take on this term was perfect, but the use of this term in the Old Testament usually indicates men of extreme evil, and they were singled out in the law for instant execution. In fact, the law required that if "men of Belial" were found in a city in Israel, not only the men themselves, but the entire city was to be destroyed. Every person was to be killed and the city was to be burned to the ground. Thus saith Deuteronomy 13:12-16
quote:
12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
That's pretty darn harsh in my opinion, but what do I know? The truth is, Judges 19:22 plainly states that there were such men in Gibeah and that they were the cause of the abominable chain of events we're discussing. The men of Isreal were responding to the situation exactly as the Law demanded.
quote:
Judges 19:22
Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.[br]
Judges 20:12 & 13
And the tribes of Israel sent men through all the tribe of Benjamin, saying, What wickedness is this that is done among you?
13 Now therefore deliver us the men, the children of Belial, which are in Gibeah, that we may put them to death, and put away evil from Israel. But the children of Benjamin would not hearken to the voice of their brethren the children of Israel:
Lindy has questioned the interpretation of the phrase "that we may know him", dismissed the homosexual element of the passage and criticized the father for sacrificing his daughter and concubine. But to my knowledge, no one has taken note of the phrase "certain men of Belial" and tried to understand the passage from that perspective.
Perhaps we should be looking more closely at what and who these men of Belial were and why the judgment of God against them was so harsh that their presence demanded the execution and utter destrucition of everyone and everything around them.
A good point Jerry. One worthy of consideration. I consider myself a good bible student. However, I must confess that I was not aware of the significance of the "men of Belial" as you have pointed out from the scriptures.
did they write the question down and burn it in a fire?
did they use those yes/no stones?
did they simply repeat the question over and over in prayer until someone spoke back?
cuz this isnt hard for anyone to do
no need to be a special race
and also, when it says "and the Lord replied..."
did this come to one of their minds?
did this come to all all of their minds?
did this come to their ears (so that a passerby could hear it too)?
i mean, how can we rely the record of this "the lord replied event" as from some sort of ultimate God?
could someone have recorded some sorely limited spiritual perspective of a somewhat obscure genocide of history, and its been in the Bible all these years, confusing the heck out of us?
the various causes and effects of the record seems to hinge a lot upon who is actually talking to whom and for what reasons
and if we try to apply this less-than-clear cause-and-effect relationship with heaven to present-day political and cultural environments...
quote:
Perhaps we should be looking more closely at what and who these men of Belial were and why the judgment of God against them was so harsh that their presence demanded the execution and utter destruction of everyone and everything around them.
i agree with this line of reasoning.
perhaps divine rules are simply seen very differently for different eras of humanities development? they dont change, per se, we just express them through different sets of goggles
A good point Jerry. One worthy of consideration. I consider myself a good bible student. However, I must confess that I was not aware of the significance of the "men of Belial" as you have pointed out from the scriptures.
Discussion to be continued......
I consider you a pretty good Bible student too Mark. We all overlook things when we're studying. Often I find it's not until I "share" something I've studied that I see what I missed or get a bigger picture. I think it's the old "receive, retain, release" principle in action (one of the things I think VP got right in PFAL).
...I mean, how can we rely the record of this "the lord replied event" as from some sort of ultimate God?
could someone have recorded some sorely limited spiritual perspective of a somewhat obscure genocide of history, and its been in the Bible all these years, confusing the heck out of us?
the various causes and effects of the record seems to hinge a lot upon who is actually talking to whom and for what reasons
If we take that tack Todd, we can look critically at almost the entire Old Testament.
quote:
and if we try to apply this less-than-clear cause-and-effect relationship with heaven to present-day political and cultural environments...
quote:
Perhaps we should be looking more closely at what and who these men of Belial were and why the judgment of God against them was so harsh that their presence demanded the execution and utter destruction of everyone and everything around them.
i agree with this line of reasoning.
perhaps divine rules are simply seen very differently for different eras of humanities development? they dont change, per se, we just express them through different sets of goggles
I think that is a very good point Todd. The rules of the game at the time of the Benjamite War may have been harsher because of the stakes involved. Remember that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden right after they sinned specifically to deny them access to the tree of life and immortality. Apparently having the fallen pair receive immorality was an unacceptable proposition. If we try to maintain that high stakes mindset and fast forward to Judges, we can assume, as TWI has taught, that until Jesus redeemed mankind, there was always a possibility that the Devil could find a way to prevent the birth of the Messiah or so pollute the culture of Israel as to make his ministry impossible to carry out. If this had happened all of mankind would have been lost and utterly without hope.
So the stakes were much higher than they are now in the world Jesus has redeemed and it seems that God wanted evil people kept out of Israel at all costs. Hence the commandment to utterly destroy a city in which men of Belial were found. This may also explain why God commanded Moses to execute captive women and children, an act that would be seen 'through our goggles' as despicable, inhuman brutality (Numbers 31:7-35). We can be fairly certain that God would not condone the same type of behavior among Christians today, but that doesn't mean that it was unacceptable back then.
For what it's worth, the cutting up of the concubine in Judges 19 reminds me of the mutilation of the slain body of Osiris:
quote:
Osiris, in Egyptian religion, legendary ruler of predynastic Egypt and god of the underworld. He was the son of the sky goddess Nut and the earth god Geb. The great benefactor of mankind, Osiris brought to the people knowledge of agriculture and civilization. In a famous myth he was treacherously slain by his evil brother Set, who cut his body into 14 pieces and spread the fragments throughout Egypt. Thereupon, Isis, sister and wife of Osiris, sought and found his scattered body. She buried the pieces, making each burial place a sacred spot. According to another legend Isis did not bury Osiris, but collected the pieces of her dead husband and miraculously brought him back to life.
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Jbarrax
Yes Mark, I'm familiar with the story. And I read your post. I'm not disputing the fact that the men initiated a plan of action as soon as they found out about what had happened. What I am questioning is your assumption that there was a kinder, gentler option that God had in mind and that He would certainly have revealed it if they had only asked the right question.
They did pray for guidance. To assume that God only reveals his true will if we 1) pray and 2) ask precisely the right question when we do is, imho, a bit of a stretch.
I realize I am essentially poking my nose into what was already a pretty good thread as a naysayer. I have a bad habit of doing that. So let me apologize for nitpicking. But..let's take another look at Judges 20:18
If God's will was for a nonviolent approach, as you say, why couldn't this passage read as follows?
"And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the Lord said, "None of you shall go up for ye are all hard-hearted buttheads. No more blood shall be spilled in Israel this day. Sit ye here and pray for your brethren in Gilead that I may deliver them from the hard-heartedness of the men of Belial that be among them. "
Or words to that effect. God corrected other people when they were heading in the wrong direction. I Samuel 14:36 & 37 depict a situation similar to the one you are hypothesizing. King Saul was about to launch an attack on the Phillistines, but was "out of fellowship". He asked counsel of God, just as the men of Israel did before attacking Gibeah.
Because there was a fly in the ointment, God gave no answer to Saul's prayer. In response to the silence, Saul looked inward and decided to find out why God was not providing guidance.
Therefore, it seems logical that if the men of Israel were out of step with God's will, he would have treated their intreaty with the same silence and caused the kind of soul-searching you presume would have changed the course of events.
The other aspect of this that hasn't been addressed is the fact that the passage indicates that the root of the problem in Gibeah was the presence of "men of Belial". I don't propose that TWI's take on this term was perfect, but the use of this term in the Old Testament usually indicates men of extreme evil, and they were singled out in the law for instant execution. In fact, the law required that if "men of Belial" were found in a city in Israel, not only the men themselves, but the entire city was to be destroyed. Every person was to be killed and the city was to be burned to the ground. Thus saith Deuteronomy 13:12-16
That's pretty darn harsh in my opinion, but what do I know? The truth is, Judges 19:22 plainly states that there were such men in Gibeah and that they were the cause of the abominable chain of events we're discussing. The men of Isreal were responding to the situation exactly as the Law demanded.
Lindy has questioned the interpretation of the phrase "that we may know him", dismissed the homosexual element of the passage and criticized the father for sacrificing his daughter and concubine. But to my knowledge, no one has taken note of the phrase "certain men of Belial" and tried to understand the passage from that perspective.
Perhaps we should be looking more closely at what and who these men of Belial were and why the judgment of God against them was so harsh that their presence demanded the execution and utter destrucition of everyone and everything around them.
Peace
JerryB
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Mark Sanguinetti
A good point Jerry. One worthy of consideration. I consider myself a good bible student. However, I must confess that I was not aware of the significance of the "men of Belial" as you have pointed out from the scriptures.
Discussion to be continued......
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sirguessalot
i guess i'm just wondering...
did they ask the air?
did they write the question down and burn it in a fire?
did they use those yes/no stones?
did they simply repeat the question over and over in prayer until someone spoke back?
cuz this isnt hard for anyone to do
no need to be a special race
and also, when it says "and the Lord replied..."
did this come to one of their minds?
did this come to all all of their minds?
did this come to their ears (so that a passerby could hear it too)?
i mean, how can we rely the record of this "the lord replied event" as from some sort of ultimate God?
could someone have recorded some sorely limited spiritual perspective of a somewhat obscure genocide of history, and its been in the Bible all these years, confusing the heck out of us?
the various causes and effects of the record seems to hinge a lot upon who is actually talking to whom and for what reasons
and if we try to apply this less-than-clear cause-and-effect relationship with heaven to present-day political and cultural environments...
i agree with this line of reasoning.perhaps divine rules are simply seen very differently for different eras of humanities development? they dont change, per se, we just express them through different sets of goggles
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Jbarrax
I consider you a pretty good Bible student too Mark. We all overlook things when we're studying. Often I find it's not until I "share" something I've studied that I see what I missed or get a bigger picture. I think it's the old "receive, retain, release" principle in action (one of the things I think VP got right in PFAL).
Iron sharpeneth iron and all that. :-)
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
If we take that tack Todd, we can look critically at almost the entire Old Testament.
I think that is a very good point Todd. The rules of the game at the time of the Benjamite War may have been harsher because of the stakes involved. Remember that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden right after they sinned specifically to deny them access to the tree of life and immortality. Apparently having the fallen pair receive immorality was an unacceptable proposition. If we try to maintain that high stakes mindset and fast forward to Judges, we can assume, as TWI has taught, that until Jesus redeemed mankind, there was always a possibility that the Devil could find a way to prevent the birth of the Messiah or so pollute the culture of Israel as to make his ministry impossible to carry out. If this had happened all of mankind would have been lost and utterly without hope.
So the stakes were much higher than they are now in the world Jesus has redeemed and it seems that God wanted evil people kept out of Israel at all costs. Hence the commandment to utterly destroy a city in which men of Belial were found. This may also explain why God commanded Moses to execute captive women and children, an act that would be seen 'through our goggles' as despicable, inhuman brutality (Numbers 31:7-35). We can be fairly certain that God would not condone the same type of behavior among Christians today, but that doesn't mean that it was unacceptable back then.
Peace
JerryB
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TheInvisibleDan
For what it's worth, the cutting up of the concubine in Judges 19 reminds me of the mutilation of the slain body of Osiris:
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