Good post Mark. I liked your line of reasoning, or at least your source's.
We can also read from this section that Israel at this time was not walking with God. The verse of chapter 21 talks about every man doing what was right as they saw fit.
Talk about relatavism.
We can see that Benjamin had fallen into apostasy with their acceptance of various sexual diversions and the willingness to go to war to defend the perpetrators of such acts.
We see Israel as fallen since they went to God out of formality and not with any real sense of faith.
All these Israelites were killed for the sins of their respective tribes and in the end, the nation fell into darker spirituality.
I am glad you guys (Lindy and Def) enjoyed the bible teaching. I will try to post comments or another related teaching later. For now I have to get back to work.
Good subject, Mark. But you've got the whole thing wrong. The issue here was homosexuality.
The men that raped and killed the Levite's wife wanted to have sex with him, but couldn't get him, so they killed the wife. All those people were killed because they turned a blind eye to homosexuality...Please read it again.
Thank you Rachel, I did go back and read it again, and what an F'ed up story it is. Reads like a comination of Lot's story and the city of Ai story. Strangely similar.
quote:
The men that raped and killed the Levite's wife wanted to have sex with him, but couldn't get him, so they killed the wife.
Is that how you read it? And it is the homo's fault? The book I was looking at had those "poor men" offer up a daughter and then the wife to save themselves.
quote:
22Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
23And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
24Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
25But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
What shivelry. That is very similar to the story of Lot at Soddom and Gamorah. Wonder why. Was that some sort of custom, to molest the ment that came through town? Clearly women were thought of as property and were offered up as such. In both stories, the man of the house offers up his daughter. HIS DAUGHTER! And all we ever focus on are those evil homos.
Look rape is rape, male, female it is wrong, regardless.
So then, the next day he is upset that the mob he handed his wife over to has killed her? That makes sense. So, he chops her into 12 pieces and sends them off to the rest of Isreal. (Well, that's one way to deal with greif, not the one I would choose.) Where was that knife the night before? If they had any respect for the life of a woman, let alone his wife (concubine or whatever), or even just a pair of brass ones, he would have taken that knife and used it on those punks that wanted his a$$.
So they all died because of a few homosexuals? Seems to me that they were homosexual before that night and yet God had let them go on living for quite some time. I can't imagine that a group of straight guys got together one night and decided they wanted to go butt rape the traveling stranger, and they all agreed. Don't think that is how it works.
So what is worse? Treating a life like property with little to no worth? being a homosexual? or rape of any kind? Hmmm. I know which one should be LAST on the list.
If it was because of the homos in Benjamin that they all died, why did God repeatedly send the children of Isreal to be slaughtered two days in a row. Doesn't sound like the days of Jeramiah when no one was killed as long as they did what they were supposed to. Although, it does sound a lot like the story of the men of Ai. They run out of the city, they get drawn away only to turn around and see their city up in smoke. Then in this story, chase them as they run from city to city and burn those towns as well. What a swell bunch of people they were.
Why? Because of those darned homos? Because a city of thousands didn't happen to know what happened that night however many days after the fact and those who did, didn't come forward, maybe? So lets kill em all? This makes sense?
Boy this just gets better. It doesn't say that the mob killer her. Here is what it says.
quote:
25But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
26Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.
27And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
28And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an foot, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
30And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
Sounds like she was alive until he took a knife to her and sent her pieces off like traveling gnomes to spread the word.
Later he claims
quote:
Then said the children of Israel, Tell us, how was this wickedness?
4And the Levite, the husband of the woman that was slain, answered and said, I came into Gibeah that belongeth to Benjamin, I and my concubine, to lodge.
5And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and beset the house round about upon me by night, and thought to have slain me: and my concubine have they forced, that she is dead.
6And I took my concubine, and cut her in pieces, and sent her throughout all the country of the inheritance of Israel: for they have committed lewdness and folly in Israel.
So now they just some how got his wife and forced her? and they killed her before he chopped her in pieces? What a great man of God. Good thing he chopped her up to get the word out. Who knows how many inoccent people would have died if they would have been let go. Oh no wait, tens of thousands of innocent people die anyways don't they?
OK I have totally forgotten what that good moral was in this story. The new one for me is- don't whore out your wife or daughter- instead protect your family with YOUR OWN LIFE- and don't go killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people in response to one wrongful death. Then that is just common sense, din't need the Bible to tell me that one.
and another thing about the "know" thing. in 19:22 says "Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him."
20:5 says
" 5And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and beset the house round about upon me by night, and thought to have slain me: and my concubine have they forced, that she is dead."
Do you really know that you know that they wanted to "know" him the way you think that you know they wanted to "know" him. What you are saying and what he is saying are two differnt things. One involves anal sex the other just involves killing.
I jsut can't get over this guy. He hands his wife over to a mob so they can do what they will with her, and the next morning he walks out the door to see her sprawled out on the ground and all he says is "UP, lets go!".
You got it. It is easy to blame it on the homosexual angle, but the WHOLE nation was depraved. Notice how no one sought God in this incident on either side and the women were cast out like garbage.
Notice how no one sought God in this incident on either side and the women were cast out like garbage.
That is it Def. They could have avoided a civil war by seeking God in prayer and having a little compassion for the innocent lives to be lost on both sides. Instead 40,000 died first from Israel and likely most from the tribe of Judah because they were the most religious and likely the prime accusers even though they forgot to seek God in prayer. Then 25,000 died from the house of Benjamin with this almost wiping out their whole tribe. This sort of gives new meaning to the scripture "Judge not lest ye be judged." As long as Israel was doing the judging they needed to first clean out the sin in their own camp before trying to bring the will of God upon others. Unless they were living God's will themselves how were they to bring this to others?
And thanks for your entertaining and informative post Lindy.
This is truly a historic day Def. We should occasionally remind each other of this. Years from now we can look back and say, "Yea know back in June, 2005 Mark and I actually agreed on a point of biblical wisdom and knowledge." But yea never know, maybe lightning will strike twice on another point of spiritual significance. ;)-->
You got it. It is easy to blame it on the homosexual angle, but the WHOLE nation was depraved. Notice how no one sought God in this incident on either side and the women were cast out like garbage.
quote:
That is it Def. They could have avoided a civil war by seeking God in prayer and having a little compassion for the innocent lives to be lost on both sides. Instead 40,000 died first from Israel and likely most from the tribe of Judah because they were the most religious and likely the prime accusers even though they forgot to seek God in prayer.
Sorry guys I'm not following you here. I'm in Judges 20. Is that right?
20:18
"18 The Israelites went up to Bethel and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?"
The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first." "
They go to battle and the first day they loose 22 thousand men. They come back to God crying:
20:21-23
"21 The Benjamites came out of Gibeah and cut down twenty-two thousand Israelites on the battlefield that day. 22 But the men of Israel encouraged one another and again took up their positions where they had stationed themselves the first day. 23 The Israelites went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and they inquired of the LORD. They said, "Shall we go up again to battle against the Benjamites, our brothers?"
The LORD answered, "Go up against them."
The go again and loose an additional 18 thousand men. They fasted and made burn offerings and fellowship offerings to God. They must have been wondering why God was sending them into a slaughter two days in a row.
20:27,29
"27 And the Israelites inquired of the LORD. (In those days the ark of the covenant of God was there, 28 with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, ministering before it.) They asked, "Shall we go up again to battle with Benjamin our brother, or not?" (or not? please, Lord, say not)
The LORD responded, "Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands."
That is three times praying, fasting, making offerings, and inquiring of the Lord. Three days 22 thousand men, plus how ever many were lost the third day. That third day 25 thousand Benjamites (worriors)died not to mention all the unchosen men, women and children that later must have died that don't seem to be worth counting.
Try reading starting in the first verse of chapter 20. It looks like the Israelites were ready to fight the Benjamites from the start. It looks like they had already made up their minds to go to war before inquiring of the Lord for guidance and wisdom. In cutting up the woman into 12 pieces and sending each to the 12 tribes it likely infamed hostilities well beyond law and order and subsequent justice. A mob mentality of vengeance likely ruled instead of inquiring of the Lord for justice and seeking the Lord in prayer.
Also try rereading the above posted article.
Judges 20:1-17
20:1 Then all the Israelites from Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead came out as one man and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. 2 The leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand soldiers armed with swords. 3(The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, "Tell us how this awful thing happened."
4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. 5 During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. 6 I took my concubine, cut her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel's inheritance, because they committed this lewd and disgraceful act in Israel. 7 Now, all you Israelites, speak up and give your verdict."
8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city.
12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel."
But the Benjamites would not listen to their fellow Israelites. 14 From their towns they came together at Gibeah to fight against the Israelites. 15 At once the Benjamites mobilized twenty-six thousand swordsmen from their towns, in addition to seven hundred chosen men from those living in Gibeah. 16 Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred chosen men who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.
17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fighting men.
I get it Mark, but I don't see how that lines up the rest of the Bible. Maybe you could show me other places in there where someone says "Hey God, which one of us should commit murder first?" or "Hey God, which one of us should commit homosexual rape first?" and God answers and says "You with the curly hair." Seems the answer should be, "hey, remember, Thous shalt commit no murder, dummy!"
Maybe it is my wayfer alignment and harmony build up that is stuck in the brain, but it just seems a little strange that God purposefully directs someone into bad consiquences. It doensn't fit with the umbrella idea. Instead of walking out of the protection and getting hit by an anvil, God says hey step to your left while your out there and WHAM it hits you.
When they did seek advise the right advise wasn't there, ie. "Don't go and kill all the Benjamites." It seems more like a magic 8 ball sort of answer...you have to ask the right questions to get the right answer.
I remember the other moral that I liked (having cooled down now). Don't rush to war! Have some compassion, humility, meekness, understanding and all that instead. Couldn't imagine why you of all people would post something like that. ;)-->
I think you understand most of this Lindy. You wisely questioned the poor treatment of the concubine woman by her, let's call it male escort. You were correct in surmising that her male should have protected her instead of throwing her to the scrap heap. This combined with the fact that after her death she was cut into 12 pieces and sent to the twelve tribes of Israel tells us that there was a lot of hard hearted sin and cruelty in their culture. No wonder they were so quick to go to war with their brethren the Benjamites.
Now you have raised another good question. In essence does God cause people to commit evil acts? Even a cursory reading of the Old Testament tells us that God gets credit for both good and evil in the Old Testament. There are numerous verses showing this. For example, Moses with the Pharoah in Egypt. Pharoah at times was ready to let the children of Israel go free. Then the bible says that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he did not let the children of Israel free from Egyptian captivity. Then Moses prayed and communed with God again and told the Pharaoh that more castastrophe would happen. Did God literally cause the Pharaoh to have a hard heart and thus keep the children of Israel in bondage or is this fugurative? Another example of this is in the book of Samuel. King Saul in Samuel 16:14-16, 18:10 and 19:9 says that he received an evil spirit from the Lord.
Of course, we do find out in the New Testament that Satan is actually the source of evil. And although God is more powerful he allows Satan to bring evil upon man to humble him. Otherwise if things went great for man all the time he would probably think that he did not need God. Human nature in effect.
So this is certainly a good question that you have one that has been debated quite a bit. My view is that God allows evil to humble man and with this man can grow and ultimately overcome evil with good. Of course that takes faith and perseverance attributes that God admires and wants man to grow in.
Lindy, there is another aspect in answering your question. You seem to be hinting at it, however I would like you to read the following scriptures and then tell us what you think.
Ezek 14:1-8
14:1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'
6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 "'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
I agree that God allows evil to exist. The story of Job shows how Satan has to aske permission to mess with one of God's people.
The point is not in us overcoming evil with Good but how much we stay faithful to God when evil comes. Do we curse God and die? or do we endure?
Perseverance in the face of unfathomable odds is a common theme of the Bible. Some eveb perserved unto death (the nine generations in slavery in Egypt, the Israelites who lived in exile, and the Christians who were persecuted)
As for God causing men to sin, that I don't believe for a moment. God did tell Joshua to rid the promised land of all non-Israelites, so not all violence and death is sin.
I think that if one believes in the idiom of permission, then Ezek 14:1-8 is much more easily explained than the Benjamite account. Ezek. can then be interpreted as someone is not doing the will of God so therefore they are cutting themselves off from God and that the way it is put in the verse is more of a figure of speech. In Judges it is not so easily explained away.
I don't like going thru all the hoops and stretches to explain how God really is good, really he is. Obviously, as you know my belief system doesn't neccessarily include a God but I am speaking from the stand point of one trying to understand what is written, not how to conform what is written to fit my belief. (Not saying that you are doing that either.) IMO though, Danny's Marcionian view is more plausable, but then you go against the one God idea. The God of the OT seems very different from the God of the NT. (Can I say "Danny's Marcionian" :)-->?)
In the OT there is a lot of this sort of thing. "If you don't do what I say, I will make an example out of you. Oh yes, you will pay and then eveyone will know that I am who I say I am." The concept itself seems a little desperate and insecure.
Personally, I am what I am, regardless of what others think. I define who I am, despite whether anyone believes me. I make art. When I intend what I do to be such, it is art regardless of what anyone else says it is. IMO, reacting to what someone says or thinks about you in a hurtful and agressive way is a sign of insecurity. This is why Bullies bully.
I know people put it in the father child dynamic most of the time, but you probably recall all of the problems I have with that. I know that when I react to my son in a negative physical way (grabbing too hard, picking him up forcefully etc. I don't hit) or I scream at him really loud because he doesn't do what I say or does something wrong, my reaction is more of a reflection on me and less on his actions or inactions. I know there are better ways to instruct him and the vast majority of the time that is how I conduct myself. My negative response is more representative of my fustration and not his wrong doing. There are ways to be stern and strick and effective in your instruction and your inforsement of it without being negative, mean, and reactionary. Consistency, for one, is very effective.
I know, I know, we were all hit growing up and we turned out OK. That is fine, us humans are resiliant creatures. But I will say there is many times a lasting negative effect on many people. You reap what you sow, ya know?
I agree that dealing with problems and the consequences of your actions is a character builder. I have said before how I waht my kid to be one of those fringe kids. The kid that gets made fun of occasionally, that deals with bullies, those are the most intersting adults you meet. Adversity builds character. Not that I will put him directly in those situations, but I want to teach him to be himself and that it is OK to be different. It is a wonderful thing. You don't realise that as a kid, but it really is a great freedom.
On a grander scale here I think we are saying the same things a lot of times. Where I think we get into trouble is in the explaining of God. I think that people get introuble in trying to relate the personage of God. I think that what we are really trying to explain are those great morals. If you do this, this will happen. If you treat others this way, this is what you will get in return. Etc. Morals, ethics, social responsibility, the things that hopefully a healthy person learns as they get older and have learned from their mistakes or has learned from other's wisdom. When we try to give these laws of consequence a pesonality, it never works out perfectly. There is always that stretching and squeezing and hoop humping. I know it may be thought that I am speaking very superficially in a spiritual context, but I don't see it that way. Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, respect, these are the things that make life enjoyable and make you enjoyable to be around and inturn help make others enjoyable to be around. Treat others the way you want to be treated and usually you will be. That is in that Benjamite story as well. These are not superficial things these are the meat of life, in my very natural perspective some of the greatest things about humans in life. (The world around us is still more enjoyable to me) Everything else is the way of negativity, the way of destruction, the way of death. In the end this is what we are talking about, the great battle within, the battle of action and consequence. How will you live your life? Choose life.
This is how I see things. I think for the most part you se it this way too. We are just looking at it from different vantage points, but we are looking at the same thing.
I hope this helps, because I think this is the clearest I have ever put it. Thanks for the opportunity to do so.
Hi fellows. I must say Mark, when I read your initial post, as soon as I got to
quote:
"In asking God who was to lead the charge against Benjamin, they assumed beforehand that they were to do battle. They should have asked God first how to handle the situation. If they had done so, I believe God would have told them to go to the Benjamites in love and meekness, perhaps after a time of prayer and fasting, making sure that they were not putting any stumblingblocks in front of the Benjamites."
I thought the same thing Lindy has posted. If God's will was for Judah and Israel to approach Benjamin with meekness, He could have told them so when they asked "...Who shall go up first for us to battle against the sons of Benjamin?" You are assuming that IF they had approached the situation the way you would, God would have given them an answer you like. That's an enormous assumption.
And I think the text supports Lindy's assertion that Israel and Judah did seek God's will before attacking the tribe of Benjamin. The Old Testament is chock full of passages that hit us hard because we've been told that God is love, God is kind, God is always nice and sweet. TWI even shoehorned it into a doctrine; the "idiom of permission" to try to blame all these unpleasantries on Satan. It doesn't work. In my opinion, it's not an honest approach to the Scriptures.
I don't claim to know *why* God told Israel and Judah to attack Benjamin, nor why they weren't immediately victorious. But to declare that the outcome would have been different if they had proceeded the way we think they should have is an unfounded assumption.
Jerry, did you read the earlier passages of scripture from Judges chapter 19? Do you realize that the man whose concubine was killed pushed out his concubine and in essence gave her to an angry mob of cut throats and rapists looking for sexual blood sport? Then after she dies he cuts up her body in 12 pieces and sends individual pieces to the 12 tribes of Israel. Why didn't he stand up for her when these holigans came looking for blood and sick adventure? He obviously inflamed the 12 tribes of Israel and they ended up having a civil war. Do you think that is a surprise? I don't. Somebody had to show a cool head in all of this. No one did until 40,000 people died. Additionally, read the following scriptures. They did not inquire of God until verse 18. By this time they had already made up their minds to go to war. They only asked God in verse 18, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" They had already committed to war. Asking God was an after thought. This from a nation built on the words of prophets is unacceptable.
Judg 20:1-17
20:1 Then all the Israelites from Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead came out as one man and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. 2 The leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand soldiers armed with swords. 3(The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, "Tell us how this awful thing happened."
4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. 5 During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. 6 I took my concubine, cut her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel's inheritance, because they committed this lewd and disgraceful act in Israel. 7 Now, all you Israelites, speak up and give your verdict."
8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city.
12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel."
But the Benjamites would not listen to their fellow Israelites. 14 From their towns they came together at Gibeah to fight against the Israelites. 15 At once the Benjamites mobilized twenty-six thousand swordsmen from their towns, in addition to seven hundred chosen men from those living in Gibeah. 16 Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred chosen men who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.
17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fighting men.
Judg 20:18-28
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?"
The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first."
19 The next morning the Israelites got up and pitched camp near Gibeah. 20 The men of Israel went out to fight the Benjamites and took up battle positions against them at Gibeah. 21 The Benjamites came out of Gibeah and cut down twenty-two thousand Israelites on the battlefield that day. 22 But the men of Israel encouraged one another and again took up their positions where they had stationed themselves the first day. 23 The Israelites went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and they inquired of the LORD. They said, "Shall we go up again to battle against the Benjamites, our brothers?"
The LORD answered, "Go up against them."
24 Then the Israelites drew near to Benjamin the second day. 25 This time, when the Benjamites came out from Gibeah to oppose them, they cut down another eighteen thousand Israelites, all of them armed with swords.
26 Then the Israelites, all the people, went up to Bethel, and there they sat weeping before the LORD. They fasted that day until evening and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to the LORD. 27 And the Israelites inquired of the LORD. (In those days the ark of the covenant of God was there, 28 with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, ministering before it.) They asked, "Shall we go up again to battle with Benjamin our brother, or not?"
The LORD responded, "Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands."
NIV
Please note verse 28. Only until this time do they ask God whether or not they should go to battle against the Benjamites. Previously they had amassed their armies and committed themselves to war. Naturally a civil war would follow this. How could it have been otherwise?
Sirguess, please read the verses in chapter 20. Notice that the children of Israel did not inquire of God in prayer until verse 18. Prior to this both sides had already amassed their considerable armies and thus had in essence already committed to civil war.
As to the specifics of what it means to inquire of God from Judges 20:18, I will need to think about this. Is that what you are asking? But I can say that their inquiry did not contain any compassion or thought for the lives that were going to be lost in a civil war.
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lindyhopper
A very good lesson in there,Mark. A lesson that is rarely learned.
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def59
Good post Mark. I liked your line of reasoning, or at least your source's.
We can also read from this section that Israel at this time was not walking with God. The verse of chapter 21 talks about every man doing what was right as they saw fit.
Talk about relatavism.
We can see that Benjamin had fallen into apostasy with their acceptance of various sexual diversions and the willingness to go to war to defend the perpetrators of such acts.
We see Israel as fallen since they went to God out of formality and not with any real sense of faith.
All these Israelites were killed for the sins of their respective tribes and in the end, the nation fell into darker spirituality.
As a reward, God gave them Saul as king.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I am glad you guys (Lindy and Def) enjoyed the bible teaching. I will try to post comments or another related teaching later. For now I have to get back to work.
Catch yea later.
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Rachel
Good subject, Mark. But you've got the whole thing wrong. The issue here was homosexuality.
The men that raped and killed the Levite's wife wanted to have sex with him, but couldn't get him, so they killed the wife. All those people were killed because they turned a blind eye to homosexuality...Please read it again.
Rachel
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lindyhopper
Thank you Rachel, I did go back and read it again, and what an F'ed up story it is. Reads like a comination of Lot's story and the city of Ai story. Strangely similar.
Is that how you read it? And it is the homo's fault? The book I was looking at had those "poor men" offer up a daughter and then the wife to save themselves.
What shivelry. That is very similar to the story of Lot at Soddom and Gamorah. Wonder why. Was that some sort of custom, to molest the ment that came through town? Clearly women were thought of as property and were offered up as such. In both stories, the man of the house offers up his daughter. HIS DAUGHTER! And all we ever focus on are those evil homos.
Look rape is rape, male, female it is wrong, regardless.
So then, the next day he is upset that the mob he handed his wife over to has killed her? That makes sense. So, he chops her into 12 pieces and sends them off to the rest of Isreal. (Well, that's one way to deal with greif, not the one I would choose.) Where was that knife the night before? If they had any respect for the life of a woman, let alone his wife (concubine or whatever), or even just a pair of brass ones, he would have taken that knife and used it on those punks that wanted his a$$.
So they all died because of a few homosexuals? Seems to me that they were homosexual before that night and yet God had let them go on living for quite some time. I can't imagine that a group of straight guys got together one night and decided they wanted to go butt rape the traveling stranger, and they all agreed. Don't think that is how it works.
So what is worse? Treating a life like property with little to no worth? being a homosexual? or rape of any kind? Hmmm. I know which one should be LAST on the list.
If it was because of the homos in Benjamin that they all died, why did God repeatedly send the children of Isreal to be slaughtered two days in a row. Doesn't sound like the days of Jeramiah when no one was killed as long as they did what they were supposed to. Although, it does sound a lot like the story of the men of Ai. They run out of the city, they get drawn away only to turn around and see their city up in smoke. Then in this story, chase them as they run from city to city and burn those towns as well. What a swell bunch of people they were.
Why? Because of those darned homos? Because a city of thousands didn't happen to know what happened that night however many days after the fact and those who did, didn't come forward, maybe? So lets kill em all? This makes sense?
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lindyhopper
Boy this just gets better. It doesn't say that the mob killer her. Here is what it says.
Sounds like she was alive until he took a knife to her and sent her pieces off like traveling gnomes to spread the word.
Later he claims
So now they just some how got his wife and forced her? and they killed her before he chopped her in pieces? What a great man of God. Good thing he chopped her up to get the word out. Who knows how many inoccent people would have died if they would have been let go. Oh no wait, tens of thousands of innocent people die anyways don't they?
OK I have totally forgotten what that good moral was in this story. The new one for me is- don't whore out your wife or daughter- instead protect your family with YOUR OWN LIFE- and don't go killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people in response to one wrongful death. Then that is just common sense, din't need the Bible to tell me that one.
and another thing about the "know" thing. in 19:22 says "Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him."
20:5 says
" 5And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and beset the house round about upon me by night, and thought to have slain me: and my concubine have they forced, that she is dead."
Do you really know that you know that they wanted to "know" him the way you think that you know they wanted to "know" him. What you are saying and what he is saying are two differnt things. One involves anal sex the other just involves killing.
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lindyhopper
I jsut can't get over this guy. He hands his wife over to a mob so they can do what they will with her, and the next morning he walks out the door to see her sprawled out on the ground and all he says is "UP, lets go!".
Those damned homosexuals.
-->
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def59
Lindy
You got it. It is easy to blame it on the homosexual angle, but the WHOLE nation was depraved. Notice how no one sought God in this incident on either side and the women were cast out like garbage.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Def59 says,
That is it Def. They could have avoided a civil war by seeking God in prayer and having a little compassion for the innocent lives to be lost on both sides. Instead 40,000 died first from Israel and likely most from the tribe of Judah because they were the most religious and likely the prime accusers even though they forgot to seek God in prayer. Then 25,000 died from the house of Benjamin with this almost wiping out their whole tribe. This sort of gives new meaning to the scripture "Judge not lest ye be judged." As long as Israel was doing the judging they needed to first clean out the sin in their own camp before trying to bring the will of God upon others. Unless they were living God's will themselves how were they to bring this to others?
And thanks for your entertaining and informative post Lindy.
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def59
Hey Mark
Whadda ya know, we agree on something.
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Mark Sanguinetti
This is truly a historic day Def. We should occasionally remind each other of this. Years from now we can look back and say, "Yea know back in June, 2005 Mark and I actually agreed on a point of biblical wisdom and knowledge." But yea never know, maybe lightning will strike twice on another point of spiritual significance.
;)-->
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lindyhopper
Sorry guys I'm not following you here. I'm in Judges 20. Is that right?
20:18
"18 The Israelites went up to Bethel and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?"
The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first." "
They go to battle and the first day they loose 22 thousand men. They come back to God crying:
20:21-23
"21 The Benjamites came out of Gibeah and cut down twenty-two thousand Israelites on the battlefield that day. 22 But the men of Israel encouraged one another and again took up their positions where they had stationed themselves the first day. 23 The Israelites went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and they inquired of the LORD. They said, "Shall we go up again to battle against the Benjamites, our brothers?"
The LORD answered, "Go up against them."
The go again and loose an additional 18 thousand men. They fasted and made burn offerings and fellowship offerings to God. They must have been wondering why God was sending them into a slaughter two days in a row.
20:27,29
"27 And the Israelites inquired of the LORD. (In those days the ark of the covenant of God was there, 28 with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, ministering before it.) They asked, "Shall we go up again to battle with Benjamin our brother, or not?" (or not? please, Lord, say not)
The LORD responded, "Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands."
That is three times praying, fasting, making offerings, and inquiring of the Lord. Three days 22 thousand men, plus how ever many were lost the third day. That third day 25 thousand Benjamites (worriors)died not to mention all the unchosen men, women and children that later must have died that don't seem to be worth counting.
What are you guys refering to?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Lindy:
Try reading starting in the first verse of chapter 20. It looks like the Israelites were ready to fight the Benjamites from the start. It looks like they had already made up their minds to go to war before inquiring of the Lord for guidance and wisdom. In cutting up the woman into 12 pieces and sending each to the 12 tribes it likely infamed hostilities well beyond law and order and subsequent justice. A mob mentality of vengeance likely ruled instead of inquiring of the Lord for justice and seeking the Lord in prayer.
Also try rereading the above posted article.
Judges 20:1-17
20:1 Then all the Israelites from Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead came out as one man and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. 2 The leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand soldiers armed with swords. 3(The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, "Tell us how this awful thing happened."
4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. 5 During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. 6 I took my concubine, cut her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel's inheritance, because they committed this lewd and disgraceful act in Israel. 7 Now, all you Israelites, speak up and give your verdict."
8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city.
12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel."
But the Benjamites would not listen to their fellow Israelites. 14 From their towns they came together at Gibeah to fight against the Israelites. 15 At once the Benjamites mobilized twenty-six thousand swordsmen from their towns, in addition to seven hundred chosen men from those living in Gibeah. 16 Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred chosen men who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.
17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fighting men.
NIV
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lindyhopper
I get it Mark, but I don't see how that lines up the rest of the Bible. Maybe you could show me other places in there where someone says "Hey God, which one of us should commit murder first?" or "Hey God, which one of us should commit homosexual rape first?" and God answers and says "You with the curly hair." Seems the answer should be, "hey, remember, Thous shalt commit no murder, dummy!"
Maybe it is my wayfer alignment and harmony build up that is stuck in the brain, but it just seems a little strange that God purposefully directs someone into bad consiquences. It doensn't fit with the umbrella idea. Instead of walking out of the protection and getting hit by an anvil, God says hey step to your left while your out there and WHAM it hits you.
When they did seek advise the right advise wasn't there, ie. "Don't go and kill all the Benjamites." It seems more like a magic 8 ball sort of answer...you have to ask the right questions to get the right answer.
I remember the other moral that I liked (having cooled down now). Don't rush to war! Have some compassion, humility, meekness, understanding and all that instead. Couldn't imagine why you of all people would post something like that.
;)-->
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Mark Sanguinetti
I think you understand most of this Lindy. You wisely questioned the poor treatment of the concubine woman by her, let's call it male escort. You were correct in surmising that her male should have protected her instead of throwing her to the scrap heap. This combined with the fact that after her death she was cut into 12 pieces and sent to the twelve tribes of Israel tells us that there was a lot of hard hearted sin and cruelty in their culture. No wonder they were so quick to go to war with their brethren the Benjamites.
Now you have raised another good question. In essence does God cause people to commit evil acts? Even a cursory reading of the Old Testament tells us that God gets credit for both good and evil in the Old Testament. There are numerous verses showing this. For example, Moses with the Pharoah in Egypt. Pharoah at times was ready to let the children of Israel go free. Then the bible says that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he did not let the children of Israel free from Egyptian captivity. Then Moses prayed and communed with God again and told the Pharaoh that more castastrophe would happen. Did God literally cause the Pharaoh to have a hard heart and thus keep the children of Israel in bondage or is this fugurative? Another example of this is in the book of Samuel. King Saul in Samuel 16:14-16, 18:10 and 19:9 says that he received an evil spirit from the Lord.
Of course, we do find out in the New Testament that Satan is actually the source of evil. And although God is more powerful he allows Satan to bring evil upon man to humble him. Otherwise if things went great for man all the time he would probably think that he did not need God. Human nature in effect.
So this is certainly a good question that you have one that has been debated quite a bit. My view is that God allows evil to humble man and with this man can grow and ultimately overcome evil with good. Of course that takes faith and perseverance attributes that God admires and wants man to grow in.
Lindy, there is another aspect in answering your question. You seem to be hinting at it, however I would like you to read the following scriptures and then tell us what you think.
Ezek 14:1-8
14:1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'
6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 "'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
NIV
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def59
Mark
I agree that God allows evil to exist. The story of Job shows how Satan has to aske permission to mess with one of God's people.
The point is not in us overcoming evil with Good but how much we stay faithful to God when evil comes. Do we curse God and die? or do we endure?
Perseverance in the face of unfathomable odds is a common theme of the Bible. Some eveb perserved unto death (the nine generations in slavery in Egypt, the Israelites who lived in exile, and the Christians who were persecuted)
As for God causing men to sin, that I don't believe for a moment. God did tell Joshua to rid the promised land of all non-Israelites, so not all violence and death is sin.
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lindyhopper
Well, I don't know what to say.
I think that if one believes in the idiom of permission, then Ezek 14:1-8 is much more easily explained than the Benjamite account. Ezek. can then be interpreted as someone is not doing the will of God so therefore they are cutting themselves off from God and that the way it is put in the verse is more of a figure of speech. In Judges it is not so easily explained away.
I don't like going thru all the hoops and stretches to explain how God really is good, really he is. Obviously, as you know my belief system doesn't neccessarily include a God but I am speaking from the stand point of one trying to understand what is written, not how to conform what is written to fit my belief. (Not saying that you are doing that either.) IMO though, Danny's Marcionian view is more plausable, but then you go against the one God idea. The God of the OT seems very different from the God of the NT. (Can I say "Danny's Marcionian"
:)-->?)
In the OT there is a lot of this sort of thing. "If you don't do what I say, I will make an example out of you. Oh yes, you will pay and then eveyone will know that I am who I say I am." The concept itself seems a little desperate and insecure.
Personally, I am what I am, regardless of what others think. I define who I am, despite whether anyone believes me. I make art. When I intend what I do to be such, it is art regardless of what anyone else says it is. IMO, reacting to what someone says or thinks about you in a hurtful and agressive way is a sign of insecurity. This is why Bullies bully.
I know people put it in the father child dynamic most of the time, but you probably recall all of the problems I have with that. I know that when I react to my son in a negative physical way (grabbing too hard, picking him up forcefully etc. I don't hit) or I scream at him really loud because he doesn't do what I say or does something wrong, my reaction is more of a reflection on me and less on his actions or inactions. I know there are better ways to instruct him and the vast majority of the time that is how I conduct myself. My negative response is more representative of my fustration and not his wrong doing. There are ways to be stern and strick and effective in your instruction and your inforsement of it without being negative, mean, and reactionary. Consistency, for one, is very effective.
I know, I know, we were all hit growing up and we turned out OK. That is fine, us humans are resiliant creatures. But I will say there is many times a lasting negative effect on many people. You reap what you sow, ya know?
I agree that dealing with problems and the consequences of your actions is a character builder. I have said before how I waht my kid to be one of those fringe kids. The kid that gets made fun of occasionally, that deals with bullies, those are the most intersting adults you meet. Adversity builds character. Not that I will put him directly in those situations, but I want to teach him to be himself and that it is OK to be different. It is a wonderful thing. You don't realise that as a kid, but it really is a great freedom.
On a grander scale here I think we are saying the same things a lot of times. Where I think we get into trouble is in the explaining of God. I think that people get introuble in trying to relate the personage of God. I think that what we are really trying to explain are those great morals. If you do this, this will happen. If you treat others this way, this is what you will get in return. Etc. Morals, ethics, social responsibility, the things that hopefully a healthy person learns as they get older and have learned from their mistakes or has learned from other's wisdom. When we try to give these laws of consequence a pesonality, it never works out perfectly. There is always that stretching and squeezing and hoop humping. I know it may be thought that I am speaking very superficially in a spiritual context, but I don't see it that way. Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, respect, these are the things that make life enjoyable and make you enjoyable to be around and inturn help make others enjoyable to be around. Treat others the way you want to be treated and usually you will be. That is in that Benjamite story as well. These are not superficial things these are the meat of life, in my very natural perspective some of the greatest things about humans in life. (The world around us is still more enjoyable to me) Everything else is the way of negativity, the way of destruction, the way of death. In the end this is what we are talking about, the great battle within, the battle of action and consequence. How will you live your life? Choose life.
This is how I see things. I think for the most part you se it this way too. We are just looking at it from different vantage points, but we are looking at the same thing.
I hope this helps, because I think this is the clearest I have ever put it. Thanks for the opportunity to do so.
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lindyhopper
OK I guess that first sentence wasn't true. LOL
:D-->
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GarthP2000
I notice that you capitalize the word 'Bullies', ..... and I think I know why.
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TheInvisibleDan
For the benefit of German readers?
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Jbarrax
Mark
Hi fellows. I must say Mark, when I read your initial post, as soon as I got to
I thought the same thing Lindy has posted. If God's will was for Judah and Israel to approach Benjamin with meekness, He could have told them so when they asked "...Who shall go up first for us to battle against the sons of Benjamin?" You are assuming that IF they had approached the situation the way you would, God would have given them an answer you like. That's an enormous assumption.
And I think the text supports Lindy's assertion that Israel and Judah did seek God's will before attacking the tribe of Benjamin. The Old Testament is chock full of passages that hit us hard because we've been told that God is love, God is kind, God is always nice and sweet. TWI even shoehorned it into a doctrine; the "idiom of permission" to try to blame all these unpleasantries on Satan. It doesn't work. In my opinion, it's not an honest approach to the Scriptures.
I don't claim to know *why* God told Israel and Judah to attack Benjamin, nor why they weren't immediately victorious. But to declare that the outcome would have been different if they had proceeded the way we think they should have is an unfounded assumption.
Peace
JerryB
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Mark Sanguinetti
Jerry, did you read the earlier passages of scripture from Judges chapter 19? Do you realize that the man whose concubine was killed pushed out his concubine and in essence gave her to an angry mob of cut throats and rapists looking for sexual blood sport? Then after she dies he cuts up her body in 12 pieces and sends individual pieces to the 12 tribes of Israel. Why didn't he stand up for her when these holigans came looking for blood and sick adventure? He obviously inflamed the 12 tribes of Israel and they ended up having a civil war. Do you think that is a surprise? I don't. Somebody had to show a cool head in all of this. No one did until 40,000 people died. Additionally, read the following scriptures. They did not inquire of God until verse 18. By this time they had already made up their minds to go to war. They only asked God in verse 18, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" They had already committed to war. Asking God was an after thought. This from a nation built on the words of prophets is unacceptable.
Judg 20:1-17
20:1 Then all the Israelites from Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead came out as one man and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. 2 The leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand soldiers armed with swords. 3(The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, "Tell us how this awful thing happened."
4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, "I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. 5 During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. 6 I took my concubine, cut her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel's inheritance, because they committed this lewd and disgraceful act in Israel. 7 Now, all you Israelites, speak up and give your verdict."
8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city.
12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel."
But the Benjamites would not listen to their fellow Israelites. 14 From their towns they came together at Gibeah to fight against the Israelites. 15 At once the Benjamites mobilized twenty-six thousand swordsmen from their towns, in addition to seven hundred chosen men from those living in Gibeah. 16 Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred chosen men who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.
17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fighting men.
Judg 20:18-28
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?"
The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first."
19 The next morning the Israelites got up and pitched camp near Gibeah. 20 The men of Israel went out to fight the Benjamites and took up battle positions against them at Gibeah. 21 The Benjamites came out of Gibeah and cut down twenty-two thousand Israelites on the battlefield that day. 22 But the men of Israel encouraged one another and again took up their positions where they had stationed themselves the first day. 23 The Israelites went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and they inquired of the LORD. They said, "Shall we go up again to battle against the Benjamites, our brothers?"
The LORD answered, "Go up against them."
24 Then the Israelites drew near to Benjamin the second day. 25 This time, when the Benjamites came out from Gibeah to oppose them, they cut down another eighteen thousand Israelites, all of them armed with swords.
26 Then the Israelites, all the people, went up to Bethel, and there they sat weeping before the LORD. They fasted that day until evening and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to the LORD. 27 And the Israelites inquired of the LORD. (In those days the ark of the covenant of God was there, 28 with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, ministering before it.) They asked, "Shall we go up again to battle with Benjamin our brother, or not?"
The LORD responded, "Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands."
NIV
Please note verse 28. Only until this time do they ask God whether or not they should go to battle against the Benjamites. Previously they had amassed their armies and committed themselves to war. Naturally a civil war would follow this. How could it have been otherwise?
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sirguessalot
hi Mark
what does that mean?
or what did it mean to them then?
curious
cuz i think it might add light to the conversation by just asking it (seeing how it is used as some sort of The Reason for the problems they faced)
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Mark Sanguinetti
Sirguess, please read the verses in chapter 20. Notice that the children of Israel did not inquire of God in prayer until verse 18. Prior to this both sides had already amassed their considerable armies and thus had in essence already committed to civil war.
As to the specifics of what it means to inquire of God from Judges 20:18, I will need to think about this. Is that what you are asking? But I can say that their inquiry did not contain any compassion or thought for the lives that were going to be lost in a civil war.
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