Born and raised in southern Indiana -- I was always subjected to *Christian Right* politics, and though I was a long haired guitar-strumming hippie back in the early '70s also -- I pretty much just
*graduated* to my present level of political thinking on my own -- which some others here might say have never gotten out of the basement!
When I joined twi in 1975, I was one of those long haired hippy radicals...by the time Wierwille was done with me, I was voting for Ronald Ray gun...
"Ronald Ray-gun"! (lol) all those years gone by and I hadn't heard that one.
But my gosh, he did resemble a comic book super-hero, a dead-ringer for "Superman" short of his hair being inked dark-blue.
After Jimmy Carter and that frustrating, drawn out Iran hostage crisis played out on the airwaves day after day, I think I still would have voted for Reagan even had I not been involved with the Way. I wanted a war-hawk in there! After all that international humiliation, I wanted my country to kick some foot! (lol)
No, I wasn't a very peaceful Christian back then...mine was the "Rambo-Christ", descending from heaven with both barrels ablazing....issuing forth such new precepts as
"Yo to ye I say: the Poor you will always have hangin' around anyways (Get a job you lazy maggots!)" and "Wars are always happening anyways (It's not the end so let's rumble!)"
TWI kept me to the right on most things but as a young adult I always voted independent, because I could never bring myself to vote for either party whatever face they had on. These days I am a left, middle, center and on a rare occasion I am right. Well, I'm always right and never right. :D--> But according to some around here I am so left I like to have three ways with Howard Dean and Jim Kerry
I've always been a registered Republican. I was never influenced by TWI, in fact I never really heard anyone mention politics. Back then politicians hated us, supposedly. With the deprogrammers and the killing of Congressman Ryan at Jonestown, I never heard any political affiliate party mentioned.
I may be a bit conservative, but I tend to look at the overall picture and sometimes will endorse a candidate so far to the left, Peta and Ted Kennedy are farther right-winged. I've been kivked off many a conservative sites. Why? Because the truth hurts and some can't handle it! Perfect example...
Even when "in" I viewed those who voted according to what TWI said as idiots. Study the candidates and issues and make up your own mind. One-issue voters are usually not too well-informed, in my opinion.
There was always a problem in TWI politics anyway. Wierwille and Martindale were essentially conservative, yet most conservatives were against abortion, which TWI was for; many conservatives were also pro-Israel, which TWI was against. Republicans also tended to be "anti-cult", former Senator Dole being one prominent example.
The craziest example of mindlessly toeing the TWI line was when Clinton was President: Martindale mentioned in passing that we'd be better off with one party in the White House and the other controlling Congress. One woman in our fellowship, who despised Clinton, voted for him because of that remark.
I was a Democrat but didn't mention it. I secretly voted democrat whenever I felt like it, just kept quiet. TWI folk just assumed everyone voted Republican.
Now that we're out, hubby thinks it is funny--his dad was always Republican, his mom was always Democrat, and it seems we follow in their footsteps.
Even when "in" I viewed those who voted according to what TWI said as idiots. Study the candidates and issues and make up your own mind. One-issue voters are usually not too well-informed, in my opinion.
My leanings have always been Republican, mixed with a general dispair over the crappiness of Republican presidents. I remember being reproved for marching in an "impeach Nixon" rally. I've refused to vote for either party's presidential candidate for the last 2 elections.
I am all over the place, but generally lean to Repbulican....however, I'm tired of Bush right now (even tho' I voted for him) and dont like how domestic issues are ignores and NCLB needs a whole lot more $$ to really work.
VPW never expressed "radical right wing" views openly. There were books which suggested he was a closet Nazi, "The Myth of the Six Million," "The 13th Tribe," or maybe he was just trolling for anti-semitism to see what might catch on. Every cult needs an "adversary."
Regarding the supposedly popular right-wing pastime of antisemitism (the USSR, not a "right wing" nation if I recall, was a major purveyor of anti-semitism, but... whatever!), as far as I could see, VP was always ambivalent about Jews. Didn't trust them as a group, liked (some of) them as individuals. Maybe he thought they could be rehabilitated. :)-->
But the other right-wing stuff wasn't so present that I recall, whatever it is.
Groucho probably considers limited government, secure national borders, Constitutional courts, a strong national defense and low taxes to be radical, right-wing agendas, if experience is any teacher, so the background of his question needs to be interpreted as hatching from his own off-the-deep-end, left-wing viewpoint.
As for me, TWI didn't affect my politics in the least. I was somewhat disappointed that the ministry's apparent "conservatism" was primarily "values-based," rather than philosophical.
Values can be anything you feel is right, without much thought about the matter. If I said "flag burning," some people would say it was treasonous, some unpatriotic, some would have no opinion, some would call it a vigorous expression of free speech. Most responses would be based upon "values," with little reflection invested to determine their "value." Mostly, they amount to our core opinions, the ones we believe are a part of who we are. We rarely remember when or why we adopted them.
TWI instilled values without the requisite, philosophical underpinnings. Of course, it was all supposedly "biblical," and philosophy was roundly and soundly condemned as "worldly wisdom." VPW had read anything worth reading, and we didn't need to worry our little heads about it. He would show us the way.
As a result, TWI's politics were a house built upon the sand of "values," rather than upon the bedrock of understanding. And as a result of that, Groucho returneth to the left, as a dog... well, you know.
So am I -- and stem cells for research can be aquired from many places -- not only from *unborn fetus'* (sp?)*, as some propound and advocate.
And I have an active interest in this, since it could help my dad and his current medical conditions. He is a staunch pro-lifer, but could benefit hugely from the results of stem cell research -- but he would accept it only if it was *passive*.
I should have known that satori would sneak in a few jabs at me -->... it seems that whenever I start talking about shoes, they always seem to be satori's foot size... ;)-->
...anyways...I was more curious about the influence that twi leaders had over people, than the political direction in which they leaned...and yes, Veepee had some really "off the wall" ideas that put him outside of the traditional conservative base...
There was always a far right undercurrent in the way, with the exception of the abortion issue, for reasons made more clear over time.
When i got in in '75, there was alot of talk about the illuminati, and if memory serves, 'None Dare Call it Conspiracy' was sold in the way bookstore.
When ever someone in a 'leadership' position talked politics in conversation or to make a point, it was always from a right wing, Republican point of view. Democrats were lower than dirt. I find the rantings of some of our more hard core right wingers here to be typical of the mind set of too many corps I knew then. Tom DeLay, Bill Frist, and others would fit right in.
It certainly affected the way I thought, as I was never politically driven, and when you're being told that republican equals liberty and freedom, and democrat equals communism and weakness constantly, it can't help but smudge you're thinkinhg, especially when it's coming from so called men of God who you respect in most other areas.
I've told this before in here, but my favorite comment was from a corps guy who was discussing the principle of giving in a gab fest. He felt that most charities like cancer research or helping the poor, were 'good' not 'best', but then said' some giving is worthwhile tho, like giving to the NRA or the Republican party !
I've recovered from my twi, radical right wing, conservative, waybrained way of thinking...
Anybody besides me think Groucho is being a little snide here?
Anyway, TWI did promote the GOP, there's no doubt, but what was VP's motivation? Part of it might be that Republicans are the "macho" party, for better or worse, the paternal party. Democrats are the sensitive, maternal party, broadly speaking (no pun intended). Vic was a manly man, a tough hombre, a "man 'o God." This behavior was proably compensating for a small... opinion of himself. But there must be more to it.
Money! Republicans tend to support fundies, and their tax-exempt status, far more than the Dems, who would probably tax churches if they could. Hell, there's nothing they wouldn't tax (as the party of envy).
I know that TWI management was worried and fearful about their tax-exempt status. They didn't want believer bucks going to the government.
The left has always challenged religion's claim to the title of "your brother's keeper."
So Groucho, if you want to continue the discussion without inviting the rebuke of your moral betters, let's keep it to TWI's politics without your opportunistic shots at conservatives, and I suggest (in addition to the poll of experiences), inquire what self-serving motives VP may have had for leaning right, and more significantly, persuading Wayfers to lean right together.
It is funny how so many people say they weren't changed in their political views by TWI. When I got into TWI everyone I knew in twig was a democrat at first and within a very short time became a republican and still are today, mostly because of Gahagans class "Blessings of Liberty". That was back in the late 70's early 80's.
I only know of 3 people from back then that are democrats now, my wife and I are two of them. Can you figure it out?
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dmiller
VPW never had much of an influence on mine.
Born and raised in southern Indiana -- I was always subjected to *Christian Right* politics, and though I was a long haired guitar-strumming hippie back in the early '70s also -- I pretty much just
*graduated* to my present level of political thinking on my own -- which some others here might say have never gotten out of the basement!
David
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wyteduv58
We were very infuanced to be republicans, lol yes we also voted for Ronny R. Now we are what we used to be ~~able to vote whoever we want to.
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TheInvisibleDan
"Ronald Ray-gun"! (lol) all those years gone by and I hadn't heard that one.
But my gosh, he did resemble a comic book super-hero, a dead-ringer for "Superman" short of his hair being inked dark-blue.
After Jimmy Carter and that frustrating, drawn out Iran hostage crisis played out on the airwaves day after day, I think I still would have voted for Reagan even had I not been involved with the Way. I wanted a war-hawk in there! After all that international humiliation, I wanted my country to kick some foot! (lol)
No, I wasn't a very peaceful Christian back then...mine was the "Rambo-Christ", descending from heaven with both barrels ablazing....issuing forth such new precepts as
"Yo to ye I say: the Poor you will always have hangin' around anyways (Get a job you lazy maggots!)" and "Wars are always happening anyways (It's not the end so let's rumble!)"
Danny
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Belle
Born and raised Republican - still am, despite the fact that TWI also supports it.
:)-->
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hiway29
was republican most of my life-Bush, Cheney, DeLay, Frist, etc have cured me
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lindyhopper
TWI kept me to the right on most things but as a young adult I always voted independent, because I could never bring myself to vote for either party whatever face they had on. These days I am a left, middle, center and on a rare occasion I am right. Well, I'm always right and never right.
:D--> But according to some around here I am so left I like to have three ways with Howard Dean and Jim Kerry
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lindyhopper
Three way calling!
Geez what were you thinking?
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Trefor Heywood
Here in the UK the party that seemed to get the most TWI support were the Conservatives.
We all seemed to welcome the fact of Mr Regan's Buddy Lady, Margaret Thatcher first winning election.
We didn't know at that time what we would be in for!
:D-->
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signals
I've always been a registered Republican. I was never influenced by TWI, in fact I never really heard anyone mention politics. Back then politicians hated us, supposedly. With the deprogrammers and the killing of Congressman Ryan at Jonestown, I never heard any political affiliate party mentioned.
I may be a bit conservative, but I tend to look at the overall picture and sometimes will endorse a candidate so far to the left, Peta and Ted Kennedy are farther right-winged. I've been kivked off many a conservative sites. Why? Because the truth hurts and some can't handle it! Perfect example...
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Oakspear
Even when "in" I viewed those who voted according to what TWI said as idiots. Study the candidates and issues and make up your own mind. One-issue voters are usually not too well-informed, in my opinion.
There was always a problem in TWI politics anyway. Wierwille and Martindale were essentially conservative, yet most conservatives were against abortion, which TWI was for; many conservatives were also pro-Israel, which TWI was against. Republicans also tended to be "anti-cult", former Senator Dole being one prominent example.
The craziest example of mindlessly toeing the TWI line was when Clinton was President: Martindale mentioned in passing that we'd be better off with one party in the White House and the other controlling Congress. One woman in our fellowship, who despised Clinton, voted for him because of that remark.
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Bramble
I was a Democrat but didn't mention it. I secretly voted democrat whenever I felt like it, just kept quiet. TWI folk just assumed everyone voted Republican.
Now that we're out, hubby thinks it is funny--his dad was always Republican, his mom was always Democrat, and it seems we follow in their footsteps.
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outofdafog
AMEN
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Jim
My leanings have always been Republican, mixed with a general dispair over the crappiness of Republican presidents. I remember being reproved for marching in an "impeach Nixon" rally. I've refused to vote for either party's presidential candidate for the last 2 elections.
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DaddyHoundog
I am all over the place, but generally lean to Repbulican....however, I'm tired of Bush right now (even tho' I voted for him) and dont like how domestic issues are ignores and NCLB needs a whole lot more $$ to really work.
And I am pro-stem cell research
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satori001
VPW never expressed "radical right wing" views openly. There were books which suggested he was a closet Nazi, "The Myth of the Six Million," "The 13th Tribe," or maybe he was just trolling for anti-semitism to see what might catch on. Every cult needs an "adversary."
Regarding the supposedly popular right-wing pastime of antisemitism (the USSR, not a "right wing" nation if I recall, was a major purveyor of anti-semitism, but... whatever!), as far as I could see, VP was always ambivalent about Jews. Didn't trust them as a group, liked (some of) them as individuals. Maybe he thought they could be rehabilitated.
:)-->
But the other right-wing stuff wasn't so present that I recall, whatever it is.
Groucho probably considers limited government, secure national borders, Constitutional courts, a strong national defense and low taxes to be radical, right-wing agendas, if experience is any teacher, so the background of his question needs to be interpreted as hatching from his own off-the-deep-end, left-wing viewpoint.
As for me, TWI didn't affect my politics in the least. I was somewhat disappointed that the ministry's apparent "conservatism" was primarily "values-based," rather than philosophical.
Values can be anything you feel is right, without much thought about the matter. If I said "flag burning," some people would say it was treasonous, some unpatriotic, some would have no opinion, some would call it a vigorous expression of free speech. Most responses would be based upon "values," with little reflection invested to determine their "value." Mostly, they amount to our core opinions, the ones we believe are a part of who we are. We rarely remember when or why we adopted them.
TWI instilled values without the requisite, philosophical underpinnings. Of course, it was all supposedly "biblical," and philosophy was roundly and soundly condemned as "worldly wisdom." VPW had read anything worth reading, and we didn't need to worry our little heads about it. He would show us the way.
As a result, TWI's politics were a house built upon the sand of "values," rather than upon the bedrock of understanding. And as a result of that, Groucho returneth to the left, as a dog... well, you know.
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dmiller
So am I -- and stem cells for research can be aquired from many places -- not only from *unborn fetus'* (sp?)*, as some propound and advocate.
And I have an active interest in this, since it could help my dad and his current medical conditions. He is a staunch pro-lifer, but could benefit hugely from the results of stem cell research -- but he would accept it only if it was *passive*.
David
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GrouchoMarxJr
Interesting responses...
I should have known that satori would sneak in a few jabs at me
-->... it seems that whenever I start talking about shoes, they always seem to be satori's foot size... 
;)-->
...anyways...I was more curious about the influence that twi leaders had over people, than the political direction in which they leaned...and yes, Veepee had some really "off the wall" ideas that put him outside of the traditional conservative base...
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hiway29
There was always a far right undercurrent in the way, with the exception of the abortion issue, for reasons made more clear over time.
When i got in in '75, there was alot of talk about the illuminati, and if memory serves, 'None Dare Call it Conspiracy' was sold in the way bookstore.
When ever someone in a 'leadership' position talked politics in conversation or to make a point, it was always from a right wing, Republican point of view. Democrats were lower than dirt. I find the rantings of some of our more hard core right wingers here to be typical of the mind set of too many corps I knew then. Tom DeLay, Bill Frist, and others would fit right in.
It certainly affected the way I thought, as I was never politically driven, and when you're being told that republican equals liberty and freedom, and democrat equals communism and weakness constantly, it can't help but smudge you're thinkinhg, especially when it's coming from so called men of God who you respect in most other areas.
I've told this before in here, but my favorite comment was from a corps guy who was discussing the principle of giving in a gab fest. He felt that most charities like cancer research or helping the poor, were 'good' not 'best', but then said' some giving is worthwhile tho, like giving to the NRA or the Republican party !
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satori001
Anyway, TWI did promote the GOP, there's no doubt, but what was VP's motivation? Part of it might be that Republicans are the "macho" party, for better or worse, the paternal party. Democrats are the sensitive, maternal party, broadly speaking (no pun intended). Vic was a manly man, a tough hombre, a "man 'o God." This behavior was proably compensating for a small... opinion of himself. But there must be more to it.
Money! Republicans tend to support fundies, and their tax-exempt status, far more than the Dems, who would probably tax churches if they could. Hell, there's nothing they wouldn't tax (as the party of envy).
I know that TWI management was worried and fearful about their tax-exempt status. They didn't want believer bucks going to the government.
The left has always challenged religion's claim to the title of "your brother's keeper."
So Groucho, if you want to continue the discussion without inviting the rebuke of your moral betters, let's keep it to TWI's politics without your opportunistic shots at conservatives, and I suggest (in addition to the poll of experiences), inquire what self-serving motives VP may have had for leaning right, and more significantly, persuading Wayfers to lean right together.
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hiway29
'moral betters'- thanks for laugh out load joke.
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hiway29
oops-that's 'loud', not 'load'-must have been a subconscious mistake.
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OnionEater
It is funny how so many people say they weren't changed in their political views by TWI. When I got into TWI everyone I knew in twig was a democrat at first and within a very short time became a republican and still are today, mostly because of Gahagans class "Blessings of Liberty". That was back in the late 70's early 80's.
I only know of 3 people from back then that are democrats now, my wife and I are two of them. Can you figure it out?
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satori001
OE, do you think people changed their politics in TWI and now deny it?
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OnionEater
Not everyone, only the people that I know personally today.
ps: The last election I registered as a democrat for the first time in my life. I am now a "Green" Liberal.
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