Whereas I am appreciative of any thanks or complement you may throw my way, let's be clear.
Whereas you may think that you and I agree on some things, I will say this:
We agree on fewer things than you may imagine AND concerning the points on which we DISagree our disagreement is a huge chasim wider and deeper than the Grand Canyon. That grand canyon of disagreement makes it impossible for me to align myself with you in ANY way.
I will ask you again. Please refrain from making statements concerning me that:
a. bring you along side of me
b. attach yourself, your thoughts, you opinions of VPW to me in any way , shape, or form
c. make it look like I'm in general agreement with you personally or your position on PFAL, or VPW OR any element or aspect of TWI.
I am thankfully aware that there are people who appreciate some of the things I post. Many have expressed their own thanks and appreciation both privately and publickly. Please be advised that I would apprecite it if you would speak for yourself.
Reason being that while you speak of "mastering PFAL," etc. you have shown yourself a master at using the statements of others and your "complements" to them in attempt attach yourself to whatever "positive energy" THEIR posts generate. You act like a parasite as you suck positive energy from them in what to me, are obvious attempts to use them to build your own emotional equity to fuel your own rediculous positions.
Your complements, like this one:
quote:
You help a lot of people here shake off the emotions and get back to the facts...
...all too often have a little "Mikean zinger" attached like this:
quote:
...those who WANT to that is.
Getting to the facts is one of the underlying foundational themes of GS cafe, from what I can see. I also have seen that few want to view "the facts" as YOU see them. Myself included.
Hitler and Mousellini (sp?) were GREAT MEN. They were handsome, intelligent, charismatic leaders of men with many admirable qualities. I'm sure that many who interfaced with Hitler have positive stories to give as testimony of their involvement with what history has shown to be one of the most murderous and oppressive regimes in the recorded history of this planet.
At the end of the day, Hitler was a murderer hell bent on world domination, he ended the lives of MANY and damaged the lives of many, many, many more. He indirectly CAUSED the deaths of millions from many countries around the world.
At the end of the day VPW was a horny, adulterous bastard who in his unfettered lust for power and control and SEX neglected and abused whatever call from GOD almighty he MAY have had on his life. HE damaged the lives of MANY, whom HE, himself, taught were the very elect, the chosen children of GOD, called to be SAINTS.
His legacy is now IN THE BUSINESS of utilizing people's honest God given desire to know and be loved by their creator to steal from them, destroy their lives and they don't even CARE if the KILL them in the process. They use people for their own personal lust to have MONEY. They don't even USE the money. They just keep it.
At the end of the day... I don't ADMIRE VP. At the end of the day I don't RESPECT him as a great leader. At the end of the day, I feel sorry for him. Why? Well I've read in the Bible whewre it says "Woe unto you scribes, pharasees, HYPOCRITES."
I've read in the Bible where it says it is better than a man be drowned by having a millstone hung from his neck than it is for a "minister" to face the judgement after having led GOD's people astray.
...was the last part of the chorus of the song Tonto mentioned. Br!an Bl!ss sang it. I think he wrote it too. It was a great song about a believer's personal relationship with God, touched a lot of hearts. I know it used to give me goosebumps.
You guys probably ROLFed all over "Lord I've got a BEAGLE inSIDE!" I'm crackin' up now.
Too bad our friend Mikey doesn't realize that it IS the detail of his comments that causes people to react to him as we do.
Concerning the facts, and just for the record.... I don't remember this stuff cause I think about it or carry it with me. I do have journals and boxes of meeting notes, etc. from my TWI days in my basement. Haven't opened them in years except to relate deatails from my LEAD experience to that thread.
I have, however been "blessed" with a "photographic memory." Please don't challenge me on it or ask me to explain it because I can't. I just have this somewhat uncanny ability to recall pretty much everything I've ever paid attention to in my life. I finally came to grips with it one day about 20-25 years ago when my family was sitting around remeniscing about funny stories from our childhoods. I was able to describe the kitchen in our house from memories of stuff that happened when I was about 4 to six months old and unable to talk. As an adult I described mind pictures to my Mom and she said things like that open area behind you was the opening between the kitchen & dining room, the bright light to your right was where the light shined in through the window and the door that was often open.
There's a really funny story in our family about how my now, ultra-sophisticated brother, a semi-famous actor star of stage and screen was a "pyromaniac-in-training" as a two-year old. He almost burned me up as I was sitting in my high chair somewhere around six months old. The joke on him was that when Mom left the room for a few minutes to go to the bathroom, he set the broom on fire, freaked out & tried to just put it away. The joke on me was that where he put it set fire to some newspapers that Mom had put on the floor under my high chair. Of course Mom freaked to find her baby boy sitting in a ring of fire in her kitchen! I was just sitting there laughing my head off, my brother was like, "I didn't do THAT!" We both liked the fire not giving one thought to how the house was about to go up in flames along with me! "Too stupid to be scared!" is the punchline.
Anyways after having suffered through the embarrassing story - again - I described the room.
That long disclaimer is important to me. FOr some odd reason, I really don't want to be thought of as a VPW worshipper or Pro TWI person. I just have a pretty accurate log of memories that pop up if jogged. It not infallable, nor is it all knowing though.
You wrote: "I just have a pretty accurate log of memories that pop up if jogged. It not infallable, nor is it all knowing though."
It's your accurate log that I appreciate. Your ability to see deeper than the facts to the truths I do not celebrate. You will need to come back to PFAL and absorb what God put in there if you want to juggle those facts into a coherent and powerful knowledge of God.
I thank you for your log of memories because they help to set the fact record here a lot more straight.
Yes, I know that while we agree on many of these facts, our few in number disagreements are deep and wide. I'm not trying to get a back door endorsement from you in any way. Your distance from me on them is far better noted by most posters here than are our agreements, so you need not fear my using your influence.
You wrote: "...Mike, YOU set YOURSELF up as the judge of ALL others here and their "diligence" (sic)...or you don't recognize or acknowledge that???!!??"
I do NOT recognize your view on that here.
You don't recognize a lot of things, Mike, like the question
"what's the profit in showing a video of 2 women having sex with a dog?"
which, I think, is still an unanswered question around here.
If anyone except you were to try to view you as "fair" or "objective", you would
have to demonstrate to THEM that you could view things that way, instead of just
SAYING you did.
(I am of course excepting those who automatically agreed with you, since they never
evaluated "fairly", either.)
quote:
I am merely reporting on the judgement I have seen and heard from a higher authority.
Since Mike is leaving this as a cryptic comment-which is the hallmark of the
"style over substance" charlatan crowd, I'll fill in for the late arrivals.
The "higher authority" here either refers to:
Jesus,
who's told him personally, several times, that he's very interested in pfal, and shown himself with the Orange Book in his hand, teaching from it,
and told him that he himself appointed vpw his spokesman,
or vpw himself,
who Mike believes when vpw has told his CHANGING story about a snowstorm,
a promise from God in 1942,
and how things were done in the 1st century.
Figured people would want to know.
quote:
I did recognize that judgement as true and fitting the facts. I recognized myself as equally guilty (if not more) with all the rest of us.
Everyone except vpw was the villain, according to Mike. vpw was guilty of little things,
at worst, but his sins are worth overlooking because of the importance of what he was
taught.
quote:
Why don't you look at the detail of WHAT I'm saying, instead of rushing off into ego confrontations with me personally.
We have about 4 years of details of what Mike's saying. People have formed opinions
within that time-frame.
Considering Mike has been swift to rush to challenge personal accounts that vpw raped
the poster, his complaint is hypocritical, but that's no surprise to Mike's longtime
readers. A "level playing field" would result in Mike being squashed like a bug.
quote:
Why not address the points I make instead of taking them as a personal attack?
Why not make a clear, unambiguous point that can be discussed that ISN'T a personal
attack, so we can discuss it like adults?
quote:
Those who are interested in making changes for the better (instead of complaining about the past) can hear good suggestions in my posts.
This is Mike's opinion, and he's unaware he's passing judgement in doing this.
quote:
Are you interested in seeing things better?
Depends-
does "seeing things better" mean closing my eyes to all the contents of every piece
of data contrary to Mike's position?
If so, I'd prefer seeing MORE things than less, and let history determine whether
that is "better" or "worse". I've never seen LACK of information result in
genuine benefit, in and of itself.
===================
HCW,
congratulations on seeing an attempt to use your posts to say things you weren't,
I'm constantly pointing with all my might to the written record, along with a weaker pointing to some taped teachings. As far as the AC goes, my pointing is largely mixed with documenting what is NOT in there. In Dr's last teaching, the AC is conspicuously absent TWICE from the list of items we were told to master.
In spite of my insistence that the real action is in that written (and tape augmented) record, you and many here want to point to everything BUT that.
There were many things that Dr did that were wrong, because he was a human being. All of God's servants did wrong, except Jesus Christ, and yet God still allowed them to do His work when and where they were capable of it. God's rewards will be fair and based on what good and bad a man does. But what work God allowed Dr to do is based NOT on whether Dr was worthy of praise, but on whether he would get the job done.
We are promised that all the bad ever done will be someday be forgotten. I think it's good to practice that graceful forgetfulness now, whenever possible.
Philippians 4:8 Â Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
No one gets away with cheating God. David paid a heavy price for his drifting from God. Yet his work, the Psalms, still stands.
I know nothing of the dog incident. My '75 AC did not include that, and as far as I know, it was only in the very early 70's that was included. Dr did different things at different AC's. For all I know, those AC's where that film was shown may have had students who needed to see that. I know that the times in which that film was shown had a lot of bizarre trends going on in our culture. If it was profitable, Dr gets rewarded for it. If that film was shown for the wrong reasons: no reward.
But this is NOT in the area where I point. I'm not interested in vpw the man, but in his work, the good part of his work, where God inspired him, along with his editorial team. I don't idolize the man at all. I wish he were the man he knew to be. We'd all have an easier time of it had he been. But that's true for thousands of men who went before us. I am thankful that when he was in fellowship Dr was faithful in carrying out the work he was given. That he didn't conform to what you, me, or others wanted is not worth spending a lot of time on. I point to the positives which are plenteous.
As far as Jesus Christ appointing Dr as one of his spokesmen, you got it wrong in what I have reported. I have not claimed to have heard Jesus say that.
I have been told here that my message differs from what Dr said and wrote. I have been told often that Dr never claimed to be writing God-breathed doctrine to us.
I say that the lack of diligence in our studying the written record Dr left us is where things went wrong for us. You and others say you were diligent students. I say you were not (and I include my own guilty soul here too), but that many crucial things slipped passed you, me, and others, or were forgotten.
Many crucial things slipped passed us all. These things would have given us a wonderful time, but instead we wasted a lot of time.
One of the crucial things that was forgotten or that slipped passed us was that Dr MANY times claimed that he was speaking for God, and with greater authority than all the academic attempts to re-construct and translate the original scriptures.
This item of Jesus Christ appointing Dr as a spokesman is one such item that you either forgot, or that slipped passed you unnoticed. It was Dr who claimed Jesus Christ appointed him as a spokesman, and it is in print near the end of the Introduction to JCNG, in the middle of page 9 in the 2nd edition, in italic type.
Many, many places where Dr claimed "Thus saith the Lord" were missed or forgotten by us all. Many, many places in the written formns PFAL where God taught us the spiritually abundant life were missed or forgotten by us all.
It's no too late to abandon the bitterness and all the soap operas and all the rumors, and to come back to the written record we were given to see the greatness of God.
You wrote: "I can't imagine a single person who would "need to see" a doggie porno film."
I'm sure you are not claiming to have a comprehensive, all inclusive imagination. Your imagination can grow. There are lots of bizarre situations that humans get seduced into, and help to get out may LOOK bizarre to those not so hurt.
Let's not forget that Dr was teaching in that AC that bestiality was WRONG! There may have been some innocents in the class who couldn't believe anyone could ever descend to that level, and needed a shocking wake up call like I'm sure that film could have provided.
Twenty years ago I could have never imagined the bitterness and forgetfullness exhibited by many grads here.
Oh Thou Great and Glorious smikeol, we thank thee for thine all-encompassing grace!
We thank thee for thine concern for our well-being!
Behold, and Angel of the Lord hath descended from Heaven and said, "Verily, Thou art smikeol, Prophet of the Most High God! Verily thou art a legend in thine own mind!"
We are on our knees, prostate, thanking the Most High God that He hath deigned to hear our prayers and send us smikeol, the Prophet of the Most High God!
I'm constantly pointing with all my might to the written record, along with a weaker pointing to some taped teachings. As far as the AC goes, my pointing is largely mixed with documenting what is NOT in there. In Dr's last teaching, the AC is conspicuously absent TWICE from the list of items we were told to master.
Shows how much you know.
The 2-women-have-sex-with-a-dog video was not in the AC most people took-
it was part of the CHRISTIAN FAMILY AND SEX class,
of which an entire segment seemed to center around the students learning all the
slang words for sex and body parts,
and was taught by Mr "overabundance of brains and brawn."
quote:
In spite of my insistence that the real action is in that written (and tape augmented) record, you and many here want to point to everything BUT that.
Seem to have forgotten all the times we've mentioned the errors in the books,
but, really, what else is new?
quote:
There were many things that Dr did that were wrong, because he was a human being. All of God's servants did wrong, except Jesus Christ, and yet God still allowed them to do His work when and where they were capable of it.
Yet, those who chose to live in sin were fired. Imagine that.
quote:
God's rewards will be fair and based on what good and bad a man does. But what work God allowed Dr to do is based NOT on whether Dr was worthy of praise, but on whether he would get the job done.
I question whether he "got the job done" as GOD sees it. Jim Jones and David Koresh
called themselves God's spokesmen as well, and there were people who thought they
"got the job done" right until the point that those guys got them KILLED.
quote:
We are promised that all the bad ever done will be someday be forgotten.
Not so fast. Jesus himself made a comment about what will happen to a man who causes
the little ones to stumble. I think a serial rapist hiding behind a holy mantle more
than qualifies as causing someone to "stumble".
quote:
I think it's good to practice that graceful forgetfulness now, whenever possible.
Not to the point that the shepherds dont protect the flock.
quote:
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
No one gets away with cheating God. David paid a heavy price for his drifting from God. Yet his work, the Psalms, still stands.
David REPENTED and spent the rest of his life making up for a single incident.
He did not compound it by knocking up some MORE men's wives, then having those men
killed.
quote:
I know nothing of the dog incident. My '75 AC did not include that, and as far as I know, it was only in the very early 70's that was included. Dr did different things at different AC's. For all I know, those AC's where that film was shown may have had students who needed to see that.
I'd like to repeat what you just said because I think it illustrates your perspective
nicely.
"For all I know, those ACs where that film [2-women-having-sex-with-a-dog] was shown
may have had students who needed to see that."
I think the rest of us are a little stuck trying to picture what kind of students would
need that, and what kind of ministry vpw was running.....
if students made it to his TOP-LEVEL class
and somehow enough of them "needed" to see a video where 2 women were having sex with
a dog
that entire classes needed to see it.
Seems a little implausible, to say the least.
quote:
I know that the times in which that film was shown had a lot of bizarre trends going on in our culture.
It was never "popular" for people to like sex with animals, in the US.
quote:
If it was profitable, Dr gets rewarded for it. If that film was shown for the wrong reasons: no reward.
So, any time he did wrong, no reward and that's it.
If he ruined your life by raping you or something, he gets no reward, and life goes
on for him. You need to renew your mind and get on with life.
NO,
he is removed from office for ABUSING HIS OFFICE.
quote:
But this is NOT in the area where I point.
I know, you hate it when we discuss what disqualifies him to hold his supposed office.
quote:
I'm not interested in vpw the man, but in his work, the good part of his work, where God inspired him, along with his editorial team.
A) vpw the man is the reason vpw the man ruined lives and disqualified himself from
holding office.
B) HIS EDITORIAL TEAM ALREADY TOLD YOU their work was their best, it was to glorify God,
but it was NOT GOD-BREATHED. You weren't interested when they told you THAT, either.
quote:
I don't idolize the man at all.
Were you here when you posted that vpw had "an overabundance of brains and brawn",
was "gifted, even overgifted", and that "when he walked, the earth shook"?
See, most people call that "idolizing".
quote:
I wish he were the man he knew to be.
We all agree on that one.
quote:
We'd all have an easier time of it had he been.
There'd be no GSC if he HAD been.
quote:
But that's true for thousands of men who went before us.
Well, except in the cases that were this severe, most Christians never dealt with this.
The Israelites dealt with this under Hophni and Phineas (Eli's sons),
and Roman Catholics during the era of "antipopes" and so on.
quote:
I am thankful that when he was in fellowship Dr was faithful in carrying out the work he was given.
Based on the aggregated evidence, I do not believe he was
given such an assignment, let alone carried it out, faithfully or not.
quote:
That he didn't conform to what you, me, or others wanted is not worth spending a lot of time on.
That he didn't conform to God's minimum requirements for His workers is worth spending
a lot of time on-it's cost lives. Lives are also worth spending time on.
quote:
I point to the positives which are plenteous.
And do your best to suppress the negatives which are legion.
When my position was misrepresented I corrected it. If people would have simply let my posts stand as is, then I'd have reserved my later comments for the Doctrinal forum.
No, Mike, that's not what happened. You chose on your own to insert your "true understanding only will come for those grads who return to PFAL..." spiel into this thread.
" ... The 2-women-have-sex-with-a-dog video was not in the AC most people took-
it was part of the CHRISTIAN FAMILY AND SEX class, of which an entire segment seemed to center around the students learning all the slang words for sex and body parts, and was taught by Mr "overabundance of brains and brawn." "
We are going through CF&S currently. Of it's 15 segment we are currently on 12.
So far we have not seen that scene. Any idea of what segment it is in?
I do realize that different versions of CF&S went out, just like PFAL. So trhere will always be some item that one guy remembers that is not among what everyone else has access to.
Uh, a "pajama party" to which VP specifically invited the junior corps, was the setting for this particular screening of the beastiality film. Shortly before its' screening a pajama-clad VP called an extremely shapely pajama-wearing 16 year old junior corps girl up to personally see the porno pen he had in his hand.
Yeah, we all needed to see that "shocking wake-up call". Oh, and monkeys might fly out of my b*++.
Galen, When I took the class, he just boasted about the film, but never showed it. He commented how the dog had more sense, because he was trying to get away. Sort of makes you wonder about TWI and the doc, as to why he possessed a film about bestiality and homosexuality. Oh, wait, it's not like it was a couple of guys and a sheep!
On another note, I am glad that I have come to terms of the whole TWI experience. I no longer feel the bitterness that nervie tried to exorcise! I am healed! This doesn't mean that bitterness won't hit me in the future. Did I mention I'm a realist, but a Christian.
Just my own thoughts here, guys, but TWI was nothing less than a corporation in the business to make money...Welcome to Reality without the TV! We bought what they were selling. How many credit cards do you have. Did they deliver what they promised? Just because you are in debt for life doesn't mean you can blame the the loan and credit card companies. They made your life easier, in someway. Now the favors cost you. If you're boss grants you a favor, he/she is going to want something in return that would make you wish you didn't ask.
TWI would have been a great learning experience overall, if it didn't want total control of your life. At first it was a lax type environment, with simpletons running twigs and branches. Then it got stricter(?), and less appealing. My span was during the Weirwill reign, btw. So saying Craig ruined it, well, I disagree and leave it at that.
I said somewhere that I was considered book smart. Book smart people are pretty naive to life in general. This would explain my entry in TWI. Experience is the ultimate teacher. I saw people with a third grade education get better jobs than me. They were street smart and knew how to apply experience, more than myself.
This site is a great learning and healing experience. Slowly I put my life together for the many years I chose to block out. Now I remember how it was and will always be. Sure, they screwed me up, but was I all that together when I joined?
If you don't know corporations-When a new CEO takes over he/she starts to toughen the rules. They start replacing the prior CEO's "people" with their own(ask Mrs. Clinton). They start to rattle established workers with their own relatives or new trainees. They show favoritism toward their own regardless of seniority. Promotion is quicker among their chosen. Sound familiar? Ever hear of "Who moved the cheese?" It's a big accountability factor that tends to take out people who don't 'pull their own weight!' Of course the targeted ones are given a bigger workload.
Yeah I'm on a soapbox seeing it's a holiday weekend. And Steve! AMEN!
Galen, When I took the class, he just boasted about the film, but never showed it. He commented how the dog had more sense, because he was trying to get away. Sort of makes you wonder about TWI and the doc, as to why he possessed a film about bestiality and homosexuality. Oh, wait, it's not like it was a couple of guys and a sheep!"
Is it possible that he possessed it because people in the ministry brought it in to him. During the Advanced class, grads seemed to be encouraged to bring in junk like that they had found. Granted I never went back to attend the AC as a grad, I was doing so much just to attend it a first time.
To say it's not like a couple guys with a sheep. Does that mean guys with a sheep would be 'rated' better or less immoral?
"On another note, I am glad that I have come to terms of the whole TWI experience. I no longer feel the bitterness that nervie tried to exorcise!"
I am glad for you. :-)
"I am healed!"
And some would seem to imply that healing is not associated with The Way Ministry. :-)
"... but TWI was nothing less than a corporation in the business to make money..."
Not un-like so many other denominations.
"This site is a great learning and healing experience."
That sounds great. :-)
"Yeah I'm on a soapbox seeing it's a holiday weekend."
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alfakat
but Mike...ask anybody here, your whole thing IS personal.
....ya really thought you were just bein' all Dragnet, just the facts???????????
no such thing, bub...apparently you have not been brushing up on your General Semantics recently...
we have addressed points here, ad infinitum, ad nauseum...
nowadays , I just bang on your coconut to keep you from slippin' into your "I GOT THE ANSWERS" mode...
and by the by, Mike, I do not "dance" just because you "pipe"... verstehen??
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Mike
I'm only trying to help, honest.
Someone gave me answers that clicked. They surprised me.
I've embraced something bigger than me, and I see it's worth passing on to those who want to get a more compreshensive story of what happened.
I'm out of time tonight, but may be back tomorrow.
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HCW
Mike;
Whereas I am appreciative of any thanks or complement you may throw my way, let's be clear.
Whereas you may think that you and I agree on some things, I will say this:
We agree on fewer things than you may imagine AND concerning the points on which we DISagree our disagreement is a huge chasim wider and deeper than the Grand Canyon. That grand canyon of disagreement makes it impossible for me to align myself with you in ANY way.
I will ask you again. Please refrain from making statements concerning me that:
a. bring you along side of me
b. attach yourself, your thoughts, you opinions of VPW to me in any way , shape, or form
c. make it look like I'm in general agreement with you personally or your position on PFAL, or VPW OR any element or aspect of TWI.
I am thankfully aware that there are people who appreciate some of the things I post. Many have expressed their own thanks and appreciation both privately and publickly. Please be advised that I would apprecite it if you would speak for yourself.
Reason being that while you speak of "mastering PFAL," etc. you have shown yourself a master at using the statements of others and your "complements" to them in attempt attach yourself to whatever "positive energy" THEIR posts generate. You act like a parasite as you suck positive energy from them in what to me, are obvious attempts to use them to build your own emotional equity to fuel your own rediculous positions.
Your complements, like this one:
...all too often have a little "Mikean zinger" attached like this:
Getting to the facts is one of the underlying foundational themes of GS cafe, from what I can see. I also have seen that few want to view "the facts" as YOU see them. Myself included.
Hitler and Mousellini (sp?) were GREAT MEN. They were handsome, intelligent, charismatic leaders of men with many admirable qualities. I'm sure that many who interfaced with Hitler have positive stories to give as testimony of their involvement with what history has shown to be one of the most murderous and oppressive regimes in the recorded history of this planet.
At the end of the day, Hitler was a murderer hell bent on world domination, he ended the lives of MANY and damaged the lives of many, many, many more. He indirectly CAUSED the deaths of millions from many countries around the world.
At the end of the day VPW was a horny, adulterous bastard who in his unfettered lust for power and control and SEX neglected and abused whatever call from GOD almighty he MAY have had on his life. HE damaged the lives of MANY, whom HE, himself, taught were the very elect, the chosen children of GOD, called to be SAINTS.
His legacy is now IN THE BUSINESS of utilizing people's honest God given desire to know and be loved by their creator to steal from them, destroy their lives and they don't even CARE if the KILL them in the process. They use people for their own personal lust to have MONEY. They don't even USE the money. They just keep it.
At the end of the day... I don't ADMIRE VP. At the end of the day I don't RESPECT him as a great leader. At the end of the day, I feel sorry for him. Why? Well I've read in the Bible whewre it says "Woe unto you scribes, pharasees, HYPOCRITES."
I've read in the Bible where it says it is better than a man be drowned by having a millstone hung from his neck than it is for a "minister" to face the judgement after having led GOD's people astray.
My position on VPW, Mike, is WOE UNTO HIM.
Do we agree on that?
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HCW
"Lord I've got an eagle,
Feels just like an eagle.
Lord I've got an eagle... in-SIDE!"
...was the last part of the chorus of the song Tonto mentioned. Br!an Bl!ss sang it. I think he wrote it too. It was a great song about a believer's personal relationship with God, touched a lot of hearts. I know it used to give me goosebumps.
You guys probably ROLFed all over "Lord I've got a BEAGLE inSIDE!" I'm crackin' up now.
Too bad our friend Mikey doesn't realize that it IS the detail of his comments that causes people to react to him as we do.
Concerning the facts, and just for the record.... I don't remember this stuff cause I think about it or carry it with me. I do have journals and boxes of meeting notes, etc. from my TWI days in my basement. Haven't opened them in years except to relate deatails from my LEAD experience to that thread.
I have, however been "blessed" with a "photographic memory." Please don't challenge me on it or ask me to explain it because I can't. I just have this somewhat uncanny ability to recall pretty much everything I've ever paid attention to in my life. I finally came to grips with it one day about 20-25 years ago when my family was sitting around remeniscing about funny stories from our childhoods. I was able to describe the kitchen in our house from memories of stuff that happened when I was about 4 to six months old and unable to talk. As an adult I described mind pictures to my Mom and she said things like that open area behind you was the opening between the kitchen & dining room, the bright light to your right was where the light shined in through the window and the door that was often open.
There's a really funny story in our family about how my now, ultra-sophisticated brother, a semi-famous actor star of stage and screen was a "pyromaniac-in-training" as a two-year old. He almost burned me up as I was sitting in my high chair somewhere around six months old. The joke on him was that when Mom left the room for a few minutes to go to the bathroom, he set the broom on fire, freaked out & tried to just put it away. The joke on me was that where he put it set fire to some newspapers that Mom had put on the floor under my high chair. Of course Mom freaked to find her baby boy sitting in a ring of fire in her kitchen! I was just sitting there laughing my head off, my brother was like, "I didn't do THAT!" We both liked the fire not giving one thought to how the house was about to go up in flames along with me! "Too stupid to be scared!" is the punchline.
Anyways after having suffered through the embarrassing story - again - I described the room.
That long disclaimer is important to me. FOr some odd reason, I really don't want to be thought of as a VPW worshipper or Pro TWI person. I just have a pretty accurate log of memories that pop up if jogged. It not infallable, nor is it all knowing though.
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Steve!
Oh great, yet another thread infected and infested by smikeol.
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rascal
Thanks hcw.
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Mike
HCW,
You wrote: "I just have a pretty accurate log of memories that pop up if jogged. It not infallable, nor is it all knowing though."
It's your accurate log that I appreciate. Your ability to see deeper than the facts to the truths I do not celebrate. You will need to come back to PFAL and absorb what God put in there if you want to juggle those facts into a coherent and powerful knowledge of God.
I thank you for your log of memories because they help to set the fact record here a lot more straight.
Yes, I know that while we agree on many of these facts, our few in number disagreements are deep and wide. I'm not trying to get a back door endorsement from you in any way. Your distance from me on them is far better noted by most posters here than are our agreements, so you need not fear my using your influence.
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WordWolf
You don't recognize a lot of things, Mike, like the question
"what's the profit in showing a video of 2 women having sex with a dog?"
which, I think, is still an unanswered question around here.
If anyone except you were to try to view you as "fair" or "objective", you would
have to demonstrate to THEM that you could view things that way, instead of just
SAYING you did.
(I am of course excepting those who automatically agreed with you, since they never
evaluated "fairly", either.)
Since Mike is leaving this as a cryptic comment-which is the hallmark of the
"style over substance" charlatan crowd, I'll fill in for the late arrivals.
The "higher authority" here either refers to:
Jesus,
who's told him personally, several times, that he's very interested in pfal, and shown himself with the Orange Book in his hand, teaching from it,
and told him that he himself appointed vpw his spokesman,
or vpw himself,
who Mike believes when vpw has told his CHANGING story about a snowstorm,
a promise from God in 1942,
and how things were done in the 1st century.
Figured people would want to know.
Everyone except vpw was the villain, according to Mike. vpw was guilty of little things,
at worst, but his sins are worth overlooking because of the importance of what he was
taught.
We have about 4 years of details of what Mike's saying. People have formed opinions
within that time-frame.
Considering Mike has been swift to rush to challenge personal accounts that vpw raped
the poster, his complaint is hypocritical, but that's no surprise to Mike's longtime
readers. A "level playing field" would result in Mike being squashed like a bug.
Why not make a clear, unambiguous point that can be discussed that ISN'T a personal
attack, so we can discuss it like adults?
This is Mike's opinion, and he's unaware he's passing judgement in doing this.
Depends-
does "seeing things better" mean closing my eyes to all the contents of every piece
of data contrary to Mike's position?
If so, I'd prefer seeing MORE things than less, and let history determine whether
that is "better" or "worse". I've never seen LACK of information result in
genuine benefit, in and of itself.
===================
HCW,
congratulations on seeing an attempt to use your posts to say things you weren't,
and taking action accordingly.
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Mike
WordWolf,
I'm constantly pointing with all my might to the written record, along with a weaker pointing to some taped teachings. As far as the AC goes, my pointing is largely mixed with documenting what is NOT in there. In Dr's last teaching, the AC is conspicuously absent TWICE from the list of items we were told to master.
In spite of my insistence that the real action is in that written (and tape augmented) record, you and many here want to point to everything BUT that.
There were many things that Dr did that were wrong, because he was a human being. All of God's servants did wrong, except Jesus Christ, and yet God still allowed them to do His work when and where they were capable of it. God's rewards will be fair and based on what good and bad a man does. But what work God allowed Dr to do is based NOT on whether Dr was worthy of praise, but on whether he would get the job done.
We are promised that all the bad ever done will be someday be forgotten. I think it's good to practice that graceful forgetfulness now, whenever possible.
Philippians 4:8 Â Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
No one gets away with cheating God. David paid a heavy price for his drifting from God. Yet his work, the Psalms, still stands.
I know nothing of the dog incident. My '75 AC did not include that, and as far as I know, it was only in the very early 70's that was included. Dr did different things at different AC's. For all I know, those AC's where that film was shown may have had students who needed to see that. I know that the times in which that film was shown had a lot of bizarre trends going on in our culture. If it was profitable, Dr gets rewarded for it. If that film was shown for the wrong reasons: no reward.
But this is NOT in the area where I point. I'm not interested in vpw the man, but in his work, the good part of his work, where God inspired him, along with his editorial team. I don't idolize the man at all. I wish he were the man he knew to be. We'd all have an easier time of it had he been. But that's true for thousands of men who went before us. I am thankful that when he was in fellowship Dr was faithful in carrying out the work he was given. That he didn't conform to what you, me, or others wanted is not worth spending a lot of time on. I point to the positives which are plenteous.
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Sunesis
I can't imagine a single person who would "need to see" a doggie porno film.
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Steve!
Oh thou Great and Glorious smikeol, thou hast verily spewed thine vomitus all over the pages of the Holy Spot of Grease.
Whatever shouldst we have done without you?
Whatever couldst we have done without you, with your Blessings of JesusTM upon your every work?
Everyone, Behold! Hereso Goeth a Prophet of the Most High God! Verily a legend in his own mind!
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Mike
WordWolf,
As far as Jesus Christ appointing Dr as one of his spokesmen, you got it wrong in what I have reported. I have not claimed to have heard Jesus say that.
I have been told here that my message differs from what Dr said and wrote. I have been told often that Dr never claimed to be writing God-breathed doctrine to us.
I say that the lack of diligence in our studying the written record Dr left us is where things went wrong for us. You and others say you were diligent students. I say you were not (and I include my own guilty soul here too), but that many crucial things slipped passed you, me, and others, or were forgotten.
Many crucial things slipped passed us all. These things would have given us a wonderful time, but instead we wasted a lot of time.
One of the crucial things that was forgotten or that slipped passed us was that Dr MANY times claimed that he was speaking for God, and with greater authority than all the academic attempts to re-construct and translate the original scriptures.
This item of Jesus Christ appointing Dr as a spokesman is one such item that you either forgot, or that slipped passed you unnoticed. It was Dr who claimed Jesus Christ appointed him as a spokesman, and it is in print near the end of the Introduction to JCNG, in the middle of page 9 in the 2nd edition, in italic type.
Many, many places where Dr claimed "Thus saith the Lord" were missed or forgotten by us all. Many, many places in the written formns PFAL where God taught us the spiritually abundant life were missed or forgotten by us all.
It's no too late to abandon the bitterness and all the soap operas and all the rumors, and to come back to the written record we were given to see the greatness of God.
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Mike
Sunesis,
You wrote: "I can't imagine a single person who would "need to see" a doggie porno film."
I'm sure you are not claiming to have a comprehensive, all inclusive imagination. Your imagination can grow. There are lots of bizarre situations that humans get seduced into, and help to get out may LOOK bizarre to those not so hurt.
Let's not forget that Dr was teaching in that AC that bestiality was WRONG! There may have been some innocents in the class who couldn't believe anyone could ever descend to that level, and needed a shocking wake up call like I'm sure that film could have provided.
Twenty years ago I could have never imagined the bitterness and forgetfullness exhibited by many grads here.
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Steve!
Oh Thou Great and Glorious smikeol, we thank thee for thine all-encompassing grace!
We thank thee for thine concern for our well-being!
Behold, and Angel of the Lord hath descended from Heaven and said, "Verily, Thou art smikeol, Prophet of the Most High God! Verily thou art a legend in thine own mind!"
We are on our knees, prostate, thanking the Most High God that He hath deigned to hear our prayers and send us smikeol, the Prophet of the Most High God!
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Mike
Steve,
Again: it's the printed record that I point to, not me.
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LG
Mike,
Your spew belongs in Doctrinal, if anywhere at all.
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WordWolf
Shows how much you know.
The 2-women-have-sex-with-a-dog video was not in the AC most people took-
it was part of the CHRISTIAN FAMILY AND SEX class,
of which an entire segment seemed to center around the students learning all the
slang words for sex and body parts,
and was taught by Mr "overabundance of brains and brawn."
Seem to have forgotten all the times we've mentioned the errors in the books,
but, really, what else is new?
Yet, those who chose to live in sin were fired. Imagine that.
I question whether he "got the job done" as GOD sees it. Jim Jones and David Koresh
called themselves God's spokesmen as well, and there were people who thought they
"got the job done" right until the point that those guys got them KILLED.
Not so fast. Jesus himself made a comment about what will happen to a man who causes
the little ones to stumble. I think a serial rapist hiding behind a holy mantle more
than qualifies as causing someone to "stumble".
Not to the point that the shepherds dont protect the flock.David REPENTED and spent the rest of his life making up for a single incident.
He did not compound it by knocking up some MORE men's wives, then having those men
killed.
I'd like to repeat what you just said because I think it illustrates your perspective
nicely.
"For all I know, those ACs where that film [2-women-having-sex-with-a-dog] was shown
may have had students who needed to see that."
I think the rest of us are a little stuck trying to picture what kind of students would
need that, and what kind of ministry vpw was running.....
if students made it to his TOP-LEVEL class
and somehow enough of them "needed" to see a video where 2 women were having sex with
a dog
that entire classes needed to see it.
Seems a little implausible, to say the least.
It was never "popular" for people to like sex with animals, in the US.
So, any time he did wrong, no reward and that's it.
If he ruined your life by raping you or something, he gets no reward, and life goes
on for him. You need to renew your mind and get on with life.
NO,
he is removed from office for ABUSING HIS OFFICE.
I know, you hate it when we discuss what disqualifies him to hold his supposed office.
A) vpw the man is the reason vpw the man ruined lives and disqualified himself from
holding office.
B) HIS EDITORIAL TEAM ALREADY TOLD YOU their work was their best, it was to glorify God,
but it was NOT GOD-BREATHED. You weren't interested when they told you THAT, either.
Were you here when you posted that vpw had "an overabundance of brains and brawn",
was "gifted, even overgifted", and that "when he walked, the earth shook"?
See, most people call that "idolizing".
We all agree on that one.There'd be no GSC if he HAD been.
Well, except in the cases that were this severe, most Christians never dealt with this.
The Israelites dealt with this under Hophni and Phineas (Eli's sons),
and Roman Catholics during the era of "antipopes" and so on.
Based on the aggregated evidence, I do not believe he wasgiven such an assignment, let alone carried it out, faithfully or not.
That he didn't conform to God's minimum requirements for His workers is worth spending
a lot of time on-it's cost lives. Lives are also worth spending time on.
And do your best to suppress the negatives which are legion.
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Mike
Long Gone,
I posted on topic here.
When my position was misrepresented I corrected it. If people would have simply let my posts stand as is, then I'd have reserved my later comments for the Doctrinal forum.
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LG
No, Mike, that's not what happened. You chose on your own to insert your "true understanding only will come for those grads who return to PFAL..." spiel into this thread.
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Galen
WordWolf:
" ... The 2-women-have-sex-with-a-dog video was not in the AC most people took-
it was part of the CHRISTIAN FAMILY AND SEX class, of which an entire segment seemed to center around the students learning all the slang words for sex and body parts, and was taught by Mr "overabundance of brains and brawn." "
We are going through CF&S currently. Of it's 15 segment we are currently on 12.
So far we have not seen that scene. Any idea of what segment it is in?
I do realize that different versions of CF&S went out, just like PFAL. So trhere will always be some item that one guy remembers that is not among what everyone else has access to.
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Steve!
Ahhh, smikeol, thine false humility is not necessary, you are among sycophants!
If only docvic(praise be his name) were here to see how grout Thou hast become in his (docvic's(praise be his name)) word.
Look! Look! The Spot made by Grease has a Prophet of the Most High God! Truly he is a legend in his own mind!
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tonto
Uh, a "pajama party" to which VP specifically invited the junior corps, was the setting for this particular screening of the beastiality film. Shortly before its' screening a pajama-clad VP called an extremely shapely pajama-wearing 16 year old junior corps girl up to personally see the porno pen he had in his hand.
Yeah, we all needed to see that "shocking wake-up call". Oh, and monkeys might fly out of my b*++.
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signals
Galen, When I took the class, he just boasted about the film, but never showed it. He commented how the dog had more sense, because he was trying to get away. Sort of makes you wonder about TWI and the doc, as to why he possessed a film about bestiality and homosexuality. Oh, wait, it's not like it was a couple of guys and a sheep!
On another note, I am glad that I have come to terms of the whole TWI experience. I no longer feel the bitterness that nervie tried to exorcise! I am healed! This doesn't mean that bitterness won't hit me in the future. Did I mention I'm a realist, but a Christian.
Just my own thoughts here, guys, but TWI was nothing less than a corporation in the business to make money...Welcome to Reality without the TV! We bought what they were selling. How many credit cards do you have. Did they deliver what they promised? Just because you are in debt for life doesn't mean you can blame the the loan and credit card companies. They made your life easier, in someway. Now the favors cost you. If you're boss grants you a favor, he/she is going to want something in return that would make you wish you didn't ask.
TWI would have been a great learning experience overall, if it didn't want total control of your life. At first it was a lax type environment, with simpletons running twigs and branches. Then it got stricter(?), and less appealing. My span was during the Weirwill reign, btw. So saying Craig ruined it, well, I disagree and leave it at that.
I said somewhere that I was considered book smart. Book smart people are pretty naive to life in general. This would explain my entry in TWI. Experience is the ultimate teacher. I saw people with a third grade education get better jobs than me. They were street smart and knew how to apply experience, more than myself.
This site is a great learning and healing experience. Slowly I put my life together for the many years I chose to block out. Now I remember how it was and will always be. Sure, they screwed me up, but was I all that together when I joined?
If you don't know corporations-When a new CEO takes over he/she starts to toughen the rules. They start replacing the prior CEO's "people" with their own(ask Mrs. Clinton). They start to rattle established workers with their own relatives or new trainees. They show favoritism toward their own regardless of seniority. Promotion is quicker among their chosen. Sound familiar? Ever hear of "Who moved the cheese?" It's a big accountability factor that tends to take out people who don't 'pull their own weight!' Of course the targeted ones are given a bigger workload.
Yeah I'm on a soapbox seeing it's a holiday weekend. And Steve! AMEN!
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Galen
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