There's some great responses here - I didn't expect this kind of discussion to take place - rather enlightening...
I didn't find out VPW had cancer until I did some searches on the internet, in the late 90's. It was always so hush-hush about his death - like it was something we weren't allowed to discuss because he was too holy.
I'm sure many of you were at the Adv Class in '79 or took the class on tape in Rome City or wherever. Remember how VPW would oftentimes, especially in the discerning of spirits section, basically get to his wits' end about the subject? He'd interject something like, "I just don't know how to teach it any better!" He seemed pained or frustrated - but not with the class.
I took that class in 1991 - but remember wondering if he knew "the end" was near when he taught. He seemed to be a degree beyond tired at times. I don't think it was theatrics, either. Did anyone else feel this way about watching him teach back then? Again... I only knew him via tape.
Also, no one has really addressed the seemingly sudden decline in VPW's health at about the same time he went to Gartmore. Do you think this was really due to "spiritual pressure" that CG placed on him while he was there? Or was this a story that LCM made up to prove a point on the Galation tapes? (To make CG out to be a "bad guy" - a really "bad guy")....
Chas, LCM must have been spouting that after I left, so I never heard it.
As much as I disliked CGeer, I don't think visiting Gartmore caused VPW's decline. I think he was already terminal when he went there. I was on staff when he died and for three years before. In the final months of his life, he wasn't out an about HQ like he once had been and yes, he appeared to be weary.
In retrospect, during that time some of his teachings seemed to be a real effort to convey things he felt were important, as if time was running out. Maybe he knew he was dying.
So anyway, yes, I think Geer was (and probably still is) a bad guy, but not for the reasons LCM claimed. I think that was just LCM's reaction to the power struggle between the two of them.
I agree Linda, He was ate up with it before he went to Gartmore. He did not seem right in Emporia earlier that year before his death. He struggled physically and imo was not as sharp. Someone mentioned a stroke in this thread. I can see that may have happened. Gartmore did not kill him, he was suffering way before he went there.
I think he was dying from the cancer and I think he knew he made a huge mistake with martindale.
1.) twi trustess all but shut him out with any decision making.
2.) He hated Atheletes of the Spirit. It was wrong by the "words" standard.
3.) He felt useless.
I think having his eye removed was the starting of the end.JMHO
Oh, and don`t forget.... We were told that vpw at ANY time could have changed his mind and decided to live....had one single visitor in his last days asked a particular question....since they did not, he *turned his face to the wall*
He died of a *broken heart*....so he didn`t REALLY succumb to death, h chose to because of his dissapointment in us.....I remember that I was stricken with remorse....sigh just one more guilt trip laid on us:-(
Yeah I like that rascal. Funny thing about that whole thing. No one could ask the question, vp did not want to see anyone as he lay on his death bed. ole lcm went in and fainted. The whole logic of him willing himself to death is a joke. To lay that guilt trip on people was so "wayish"
Makes me think since Geer knew this (The Question), was he the one that killed vp? If it was my friend on that bed.I for sure as hell would have grabbed someone, anyone to ask that question so my friend would see a reason to live. How is that for a guilt trip? The logic of it all?
Oh, and don`t forget.... We were told that vpw at ANY time could have changed his mind and decided to live....had one single visitor in his last days asked a particular question....since they did not, he *turned his face to the wall*
He died of a *broken heart*....so he didn`t REALLY succumb to death, h chose to because of his dissapointment in us.....I remember that I was stricken with remorse....sigh just one more guilt trip laid on us:-(
Well, he was Jesus to some, so cancer didn't kill him, he gave up the spirit. I'm not surprised that they turned it around and say it was the believers' fault, because they didn't believe enough or weren't there! In the business world the motto is 'deny everything and admit nothing!'
Somebody refresh my memory. At CorpseWeak '86 didn't Howard say that he and the other trustees were responsible for the Vickster's death?
I remember him making some momentous confession from the main stage, but I forget exactly what was said (other than noting that Craig looked like a whooped pup).
Corps Week '86 was definitely a trip to Bizarro World. It's amazing that anyone continued to hang around after that nonsense...
"Plausible deniability" seems to be the attitude that the leadership took by trying to find a host of other reasons and underplaying the fact that VPW had made such emphasis on the spiritual nature of the disease.
To admit he had been in major error on this point would be to invite questioning as to his errors in other areas also. They tried to keep the real truth hidden in what was to be a vain attempt to keep the legend whole and pure.
And to a great extent they succeeded as it was LCM that was to bring TWI to its knees, yet another major error that VPW made.
I was on staff @ HQ, basically, from 1979 until 1988. I say basically, because I spent a year in residence at Emporia, a year in Indiana as a WOW and a a few blocks at the other root locations before coming back on staff '83 & staying through '88.
-- There was no mandate from HQ to keep VP's health condition secret. I was well connected enough that I'd have heard if there was. HQ was "rumor capital of the (way)world."
The fact that so many of you share the testimonies given above on this thread is in itself a testament to a BIG part of the problem with TWI. Same as in any church, people "take the ball & run with it." More often than not they run down the worst road available.
What has been said above says a LOT about the leadership in your areas.
Before anyone jumps me, let me say I'm also not the one to defend VP. Nor am I the one to defend anything about TWI. I just try and take a position on TWI that is factual and reality based.
Some facts as I've witnessed myself are:
- - VP's condition was not secret, it just wasn't publicised and as someone else mentioned; not shouted from the rooftops. As Linda Z said, VP sorta "dissapeared" for a long while when his healthe declined. I knew he was getting tests & stuff done like that cause I hung with one of his son's in law a good bit.
I always HATED the fact that TWI would, in essence, hide things under the auspicies of "not confessing negatives." I was an outspoken advocate of telling people "negatives;" as in "The WORD says when we pray we should be specific."
The debate was that telling the general TWI populace "ALL of the facts" would cause more damage than do good, noting how people tend to go down the negative path.... I felt that was BS. I felt that we should trust the people whose money we used to supply our livings to be smart enough to PRAY when they heard of extreme things concerning THEIR ministry, rather than FREAK.
Please keep in mind the climate of the times was that Government and military would keep LOTS of stuff away from people (Watergate anyone?). It wasn't really a TWI thing, TWI leadership just bought into it.
- - I, as keeper of TWI's historical photo files, saw the pictures from the filming of PFAL. I saw his eyes swollen, cold wrags applied to his eyes between filming sessions. I saw pictures of his getting extra makeup applied to dark circles around his eyes. Yes. The eye which was later removed was worse than the other.
- - VP later regretted being talked into (as he put it) having his eye removed. He hated wearing his glass eye. He never got used to it. It didn't look natural as "they" said it would. It wouldn't turn in concert with his other eye, so he often looked cockeyed. It was wierd, people would stare, then look away trying not to stare. He really wasn't the same after that. For those of you who wish that he was emaciated, or knocked down a few notches... he WAS. Taking his eye was a point of no return for him. He really hated being like that, it was torment fo him.
- - His health declined on a "normal" glide-path, so to speak. The "rapid decline" thing was part of the legend. He knew he didn't have much time left when he went to Gartmore, that's WHY he went, especially when he did. He actually didn't seem to want to be around much longer. There were lots of folks who were leaving HQ who had been "lifers" they were disgusted with how things were, just didn't want to be there @ HQ anymore.
- - It was LCM, more than VP that started the MOG for our times crap I never heard VP ask to be called that, nor did I ever read it in any of his books or magazine articles or "By The Way" essays. There was a BIG difference between the HQ & left and the one I came back to two years later, then after the Corps. The HQ I left was like a big family, I came back to a colder, less personal corporation. When I left "everybody" was on a first name, even nickname basis. We called the older folks by titles, Mrs. Allen, Mrs. Owens, Mrs. Wierwille. Us younger folk called VPW "Dr." as a nickname, not a formal title. The real "oldtimers" called him VP. There was no confrontation or reproof about titles.
Craig & Rosalie took more and more power. Rosalie proported herself to have VP's ear and spoke "as if she knew" in VP's stead. She instituted policy and procedure and more policy and more procedure. Red tape abounded where we used to be more like Nike - Just do it. The more power they & the trustees exercised, the more VP operated kinda covertly. It was covert in the sense that since HE was VP, he could do what he wanted, when he wanted. He didn't HAVE to tell anybody what he was doing, nor did he have to go through the approval process to do anything.
Eventually the trustees relented and figured that if he was traveling around teaching, he wouldn't be "messing things up" around HQ. For example. I used to get direct calls from his secretary(s) or aide(s), even Chris Geer when he had the job, "Dr. Wants to see you in the motorcoach, what's a good time for you to get away."
I'd drop whatever project I was working on and go. On the way out the door I'd say, "I'm going to the motorcoach Dr. VPW wants to see me." That kinda P.O'ed department leadership cause they couldn't "nazi" me. Deadlines would move, meetings could wait, etc. VP had ultimate clout.
My job put me in front of VP, LCM, the trustees and other major leadership on a pretty regular basis. I got to know them all personally, beyond the employee relationship.
- - Yes. VP did hate the Athletes thing. He also hated them putting his name on the auditorium, he hated pretty much everything that was going on at HQ in the last years of his life. He actually ordered that his name NOT be put on the building. LCM waited until he died and had the sign changed; among his first few, "I'm REALLY in charge now" statements.
Things became progressively bad at HQ through the mid to late '80s. There was a constant "battle" between the "real Old-Timers" and the new, young, Corps kids who didn't know crap about how we did things.
As VP's health declined, there was more and more of "That's how VP used to run things, we don't do that anymore." The more and more that people got fed up & left, the more some of us felt we should stay and "fight for the Word."
Basically it became just more and more of a fight.
It was difficult for a lot of people to see VP weak. He spent most of his last years of vitality traveling around teaching, writing his "By The Way" articles for the St. Marys newspaper and overseeing Way Productions. He was on his own massive PR campaign to win the favor of the locals around HQ. It worked very well in terms of outreach. Then internally, there was that whole "I Wish I Were The Man I Know To Be" song thing. That was the beginning of Harve Platig's rise to power. Prior to that Harve was just yet another decent guitarist, which in those days in the ministry they were a dime a dozen. If memory serves, Harve presented that song to VP as a gift during one of his visits to Emporia while Harve was in residence in the ninth Corps.
VP loved it & made Harve a star by having him play it all over the country. I remember VP teaching the same teaching, "The Joy of Service" over and over & over again. He said that teaching was the key to saving the ministry after he was gone. The trusteezs made VP more and more of an "emeritus" icon. They wanted him to fade away. They pushed him into a corner, and gradually turned him from founder & President to just plain old founder, then ancient history. They would trot him out like, "look at our wonderful founder, our father in the word!" like "wave at the peoples, VP - - now go sit down in your special seat."
He went to Gartmore for "no apparent reason." most folks didn't know he was gone or where he was. Back in the day we ALWAYS knew when VP was, it was even "event-worthy" when he came home. We used to line the circle drive to pray & wish him well when he left, and we could take a break form working to go say hello when he came home. That faded away after Craig took over. Nonoby really though enough of Craig to stop working when he got back from anywhere.
When VP got back from Gartmore he was largely inneffective by then. All of his "projects" had to be "approved" and thrown into the red tape bin that was everything else that we did. Some of them even didn't get done - - a major change.
- - A lot of people at HQ, myself included, were really ****** about the "VP died of a broken heart" announcement. Again that came from LCM. We were basically give a scripted announcement that was supposed to be a "blue alert" that was to go through the wat tree.
I distinctly remember saying, "what?" that's BS, how can you DIE of a broken heart???
POP later laid the blame for VP's decline into death suqarely at the feet of Martindale and the rest of the trustees for their betrayal of the ministry and God and VP personally.
POP, as you know, stated that the then current BOT had turned their backs on God and had systematically turned the ministry away from God and His work. They ALL admitted to it and read their hand written comments concerning the same, that were signed as part of their signatures, like Oakspear mentioned.
I was there front row center balcony the night CG read POP. At that time, I think we felt the long battle was "over" and we could finally work to return HQ the homey, "family place" it once was. VP was gone, it was then up to US to turn the ship around and sail into the future with God.
Of course you know that never happened. I never knew CG that well, beyond smalltalk greeting type stuff. He wasn't widely liked, but everyone respected him You either liked him or didn't. Somewhere along the way it did become a major power struggle for control of the entire ministry.
There were rumors long before POP that once VP stepped down there was a power struggle for the ministry. As I've shared before in other threads, the general line on Craig as President was to let him run around teaching and leading the Corps and let Donnie & Howard run the business.
In the early days VP ran the business, did the teachings, pretty much everything. LCM wanted to be VP Jr. Donnie wanted to be the corporate, defacto-president, as ViceP in that he was in charge of all of the business aspects of the ministry. Howard wanted complete control of Gunnison.
They were willing to give CG Great Britain, as long as he reported to them. CG said, "Bulls@#t, I'm NOT gonna be under YOU, you Goddless, murdering *******s." Craigers said, "Oh yes you are." Chris ceseeded (sp?) from TWI, took as much of VP's works with him as he could get. He outmanuevered the TWI legal dept. to keep whatever copyrighted stuff he wound up with. Craig got mad and started calling HIM possessed.
Then LCM said, Seeing as CG had all of these Devil spirits over there in Gartmore, he infested VP with them when VP went to him for "help." This caused VP to decline very rapidly. THEN he came over here and blindsided our well meaning asses with his spiritual coup attempt to take the ministry from us. His army of spirits seduced us because we were vulnerable, still suffering from our (and my personal) grief from the loss of our father in the word.
LCM continued with: I know what we said when he was here I know what I/we wrote at POP. I know the promises we made, we were not possessed, but we were certainly INFLUENCED by CHRIS's demons. He's the possessed one, not us.
That was LCM's story and apparently he stuck to it.... and RAN with it.
That "VP gave up the ghost" stuff came from Craig. There were some rumblings @ HQ about the BS factor around VP's cause of death. Then it was announced that we'd be told the exact cause later. Then we were told later he died of melanoma. Few people knew what it was until some looked it up as being cancer. I don't remember one word of possession talk regarding Vp's death. The teaching (to repeat what someone said above) was that cancer was CAUSED by devil sprits, and that a person could GET cancer and not be possessed.
LCM certainly needed the whole possessed thing to control people. He preyed on people's innocence and desire to know God. I also believe it was a MAJOR mistake to make LCM president. Craig didn't go along with his being the "spiritual head" of the ministry and Donnie W. running the business. Even during the "glory years" VP turned more and more of the day to day operations of the ministry over to those of us more qualified than he to do whatever.
That was part of the "natural evolution" of TWI. By the time VP became ill, he was basically out of "running" TWI. toward his end it was more like, "No you're not coming BACK and running things like you used to. In the old, old days when we were small you could "do everything." Now we're just too big, we need policies and procedures...."
The President position had evolved. VP was happy to be able to tell people, "You're the professional, you tell ME how we should do it." When I worked with him, he'd tell me somethinkg like. "I'm thinking about writing thus and so in my fall letter to the believers, can you do a letterhead that goes with that theme?" I'd go do it. Then I'd call him & set up a meeting wto explain my thought process of how I came up with what I did. We had many good conversations about thought processess and the "why's" behind this that and the other thing we did in the ministry.
I got to know him and his vision for the ministry pretty well. That was why I felt I should stay at HQ to help lead in the original vision for the ministry, seeing as I'd heard firsthand from the "horse's mouth" what he felt about a LOT of it. In light of that I did basically all the promotional work for PFAL, the WOW program, The Way Corps, Rock of ages and the University of Life. They still use my logo on the magazine and my overall design for it.
Sorry for the long post. There was a good bit of stuff to address from an insider's point of view. I know how a lot of you guys feel about VP and I don't blame nor condemn you for your position. I do believe, however, in agreement with yet another post above, that VP did many things that were atypical for your average "Pinky & the Brain" cult leader, bent on world domination. Especially waaaaayyyy back in "The Chimes Hour Youth Caravan" days.
Back then there just weren't a lot of available hot yound chicks for him to be lecherous with. The advent of the hippies in the late '60s - early '70s and the prevailing free sex, drugs & rock & roll era certainly brough opportunities that he obviously took advantage of. Honestly, for all I knew of him and combined with my own personal experiences in ministry, I don't know which came first, "the chicken or the egg."
TWI history has revealed to us that he at the very least felt he could get away with the extracirricular stuff he was doing.
TWI history also reveals that TWI was bigger and more than VP. My position is to give credit where credit is due. Some of our "leadership" were straight up "assh*(@$" when they came to TWI. VPW too. Drawn away of his OWN lusts, enticed....
In retrospect, the comedy of twi was the almost Shakespearean dramatics that always maintained itself as an underurrent of "waybrain reality"...it began with the snow on the gas pumps and ended with the "Passing of the Poop"...always, the destiny of mankind seemed to be riding on the success of an adulterous cornfield preacher and the willingness of his glassy eyed followers to provide a free work force that would recruit EVEN MORE glassyeyed followers into the household of his holy spermsickle cult.
...but then it happened...the great man of god became possessed by a "cancer spirit"...as Loy danced away in his color coordinated tights...
VPW didn't teach that someone had to be possessed to get cancer; he taught that the disease is caused by a devil spirit. There's a difference. Again, I don't know if it's true, but that's what was taught when I sat through the class.
I've heard this before also though no such distinction was made towards those in the field who had cancer. They were considered as being possessed. I know of no exceptions to this.
Now. Even if one believed that VPW was somehow exempt from this - that he had a disease caused by a devil spirit yet he was not possessed (his personality was not impaired or influenced by satan) its still a mystery as to why this could happen to "The Teacher". What did he do to let the "adversary invade that hedge of protection" ? He must have been "out of fellowship" so what did he do ? My point is that believers in the field were berated for far less significant health problems yet VPW wasn't for having something as serious as cancer ?
quote:
As for a cover-up, I know twi didn't shout from the rooftops that VPW died of cancer; God forbid they should "speak any negatives." But I knew it, maybe only because I was on HQ staff when he died. I wasn't in any privileged "inner circle" by any means. I was just a worker bee, and it didn't seem to me to be any secret what VPW had.
Sure there was a coverup. After his eye replacement I and many people in my area asked pointed questions to our leadership about the change in VPW's appearance. The MOST we could get from anyone were comments to the effect that he had "exhausted himself in service to the Body" and additional questions were met with a change of subject. Later on MORE people had questions and we were reproved for being "too concerned" with things that "didn't really matter" (i.e. VPW's appearance).
When he died it was entirely natural that questions would emerge relative to the cause of his death. He was the so called "Father In The Word" so why woudln't people want to know ? This is when it became apparent to me that people were sitting on this truth. Whether or not it was a mandate to conceal it I don't know. BUT in my area we were lied to by several people who were "up there" in terms of leadership. One explanation was that VPW had "fought the good fight" and it was time to for him to "Rest".
Another well worn response was "what does it matter how he died ? Didn't he teach you the Word ? " Total evasive BS ! They just didn't want to have to explain to people why they applied a different standard to VPW.
So this came at a time when a fellow died who had been WOW twice passed away and these same leaders talked about how he had "let the adversary tear his believing down" and how he had done something to "let satan through the headge of protection". But did they apply the same statements to VPW ? Hell no !!! He was still considered as a valid substitute for the "absent christ".
I left TWI around 84 and I NEVER encountered one leader who would come out openly and say that VP died of cancer ! There were people who knew this and would talk about it but no one would discuss this at Twig or at meetings. Once I had heard that VPW had cancer I asked several people about it and all I heard were totally defensive remarks like "well so what ? Everyone dies of something".
TWI could have come clean - hell VPW could have come clean when he was diagnosed and openly admitted that the so called law of believing was flawed. but NO. He didn't !See he could have been up front about it but he wasn't. Why not ?
Maybe because he would have to admit that he was WRONG ? Good Lord... This man lied by keeping silent ? This was when believers in the field were being torn new ones for having less significant illnesses yet VPW was still held up as "The Teacher" ? This is whacked in SO many ways... Its sick....
The most odd thing here is that had he been open about having cancer people would have prayed for him ! They wouldn't have been mad at him or even applied the same derision towards the ill that his suck-up yes men did. People would have been supportive. But NO. He wanted to keep TWI money-making machine moving ahead at full steam.
Yes, his appearance did change drastically after he want for his eye operation. Mild stroke, it paralyzed one side of his face. I don't think even the top leadership were told that. I also think its why he was away for so long - then just came back to H.Q. unannounced.
Well, I’ve been meaning to add to this thread for sometime, not only for the topic at hand, but with the news about John Hendricks who many people didn’t know as well as other twi leadership, I thought I would add the following info. Perhaps I can drag Tonto and her hubby out of hiding (and a few of you other lurkers) to put in their two cents also about this topic. I haven’t thought about his stuff for years, but a few of you (like HCW) jogged some thoughts, so hopefully I can fill in a few blanks. I’ll try to break up the pages some, so it’s not such a pain to read.
I was in twi from 1973-1989, mostly in Calif. during that time. Oversaw a twig from ’74 on; branch leader with hubby in a large metro area; attended every ROA from ’74 to ’88, so we saw plenty. We waited a long time to go in the Corps and finally got enough gumption to go in after numerous waves of administrative lackeys and MOG-wannabes were sent out to “take over” areas that had been started years ago from scratch and nurtured over the years with a lot of love and care (by non-Corps believers). Delusional as we were, we honestly thought by going in we could change things (you may all chuckle now).
So off to Rome City hubby, our 6 year old son and I go entering into Family Ways Corps XI - - the first year of John & MaryAnn Hendricks’ tenure as Family Corps Coordinators. Wayne & Fern Clapp had been there for a few years under the reign of Moynihan and some other young assistant nazi, whose name escapes me- - Wayne as the campus dean. David Turk was there for a short time - - don’t remember what happened to him. Jim & Marjorie Plunkett did a lot of the work program. The Kleiwers (sp?) were still there on farms/gardening, etc. Butch & Sherri - - lots of wonderful people still.
Imagine our surprise and thrill on our very first opening night when we find out that vp and Mrs. W. would be there with us!
Side note here: We had been very concerned about vpw, as one Sunday during our apprentice year, we had the whole branch over our house for a SNS phone hook up on which vpw was the teacher. What we heard after he was announced was shocking and disturbing. VPW was teaching alright, but was slurring and speaking so slowly - - it caused all us loyal wayfers lots of concern and alarm. This was no Drambuie slur. This sounded like he had had a stroke. I don’t know the name of the teaching but it was something about the tribe of Chad -- - maybe one of you remembers that one. Odd thing to us. No one talked about it. No mention of any illness. No comment from vp about being under the weather. Nothing. Just left us hanging and speculating - - and very alarmed about our “father in the Word”’s health.
Back to opening night of our Corps. John welcomes us and then turns it over to vp. VP looks around and then what we heard next confirmed a lot of growing concerns we had been harboring about the ministry, but only discussed in private. He was serious, somber and by the tone of his voice, we could tell, this was going to be something very “heavy”. He looked old, tired and for many of us, it was the first time we had seen him up close and personal since he had gotten the fake eye. VP tells us that he had been concerned about the direction of the Way Corps for some time. It had really gotten away from the original intent and heart - - and he was going to see to it that it had a chance to change. He told us that “none of those guys” at HQ listened to him any more. He was “out of the loop” and was not consulted any more on decisions that were being made. “Well, I overrode everyone on this and just did it.” He said that he had hand-picked John and Mary Ann to come here and run this thing - - and if John will listen, there will be a Way Corps program again.
I can’t remember everything he talked about, nor am I one of those diary freaks - - but the gist of the rest of what he discussed centered around the work program. The program, he said, had become too academic - - and made some implication about Don W’s influence on that. A big part of the Corps program needed to be the work program, he said. If people didn’t learn the discipline of hard work, then they’d never be able to “work the word.” So he felt like this was a good place to start over. With the Family Corps. And he said - - and it’s probably not for you guys - - but for your kids. He talked up Greg and Cindy Bernardini a bit - - particularly Cindy - - and said that it was for the kids that this program had to continue - - “if the Word was ever going to live past this generation.”
O.K. Pregnant pause here. Our heads were swimming. This was heavy. No one listened to our beloved Dr. Wierwille? [Flashback to that ROA and a comment Don had made that ****** off hubby royally. He said something about the staff at HQ being the “true” corps. The staff were the spiritual ones who were keeping the Word alive. Not all the believers and Corps on the field!] The Corps program was screwed up? (Well, duh! We coulda told you that! He had just confirmed everything we had been seeing for the past number of years on the field!) John H. was “hand picked”? For us? Boy did we feel like we were spiritual going in when we did! Ha!
I honestly can’t remember anything John said that night. I know he pretty much, as his manner would be for the remainder of the year, deferred to vp. If vp was there, John didn’t say much. If vp was gone, we could expect John to be short, direct and pointed.
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ChasUFarley
There's some great responses here - I didn't expect this kind of discussion to take place - rather enlightening...
I didn't find out VPW had cancer until I did some searches on the internet, in the late 90's. It was always so hush-hush about his death - like it was something we weren't allowed to discuss because he was too holy.
I'm sure many of you were at the Adv Class in '79 or took the class on tape in Rome City or wherever. Remember how VPW would oftentimes, especially in the discerning of spirits section, basically get to his wits' end about the subject? He'd interject something like, "I just don't know how to teach it any better!" He seemed pained or frustrated - but not with the class.
I took that class in 1991 - but remember wondering if he knew "the end" was near when he taught. He seemed to be a degree beyond tired at times. I don't think it was theatrics, either. Did anyone else feel this way about watching him teach back then? Again... I only knew him via tape.
Also, no one has really addressed the seemingly sudden decline in VPW's health at about the same time he went to Gartmore. Do you think this was really due to "spiritual pressure" that CG placed on him while he was there? Or was this a story that LCM made up to prove a point on the Galation tapes? (To make CG out to be a "bad guy" - a really "bad guy")....
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Linda Z
Chas, LCM must have been spouting that after I left, so I never heard it.
As much as I disliked CGeer, I don't think visiting Gartmore caused VPW's decline. I think he was already terminal when he went there. I was on staff when he died and for three years before. In the final months of his life, he wasn't out an about HQ like he once had been and yes, he appeared to be weary.
In retrospect, during that time some of his teachings seemed to be a real effort to convey things he felt were important, as if time was running out. Maybe he knew he was dying.
So anyway, yes, I think Geer was (and probably still is) a bad guy, but not for the reasons LCM claimed. I think that was just LCM's reaction to the power struggle between the two of them.
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justloafing
I agree Linda, He was ate up with it before he went to Gartmore. He did not seem right in Emporia earlier that year before his death. He struggled physically and imo was not as sharp. Someone mentioned a stroke in this thread. I can see that may have happened. Gartmore did not kill him, he was suffering way before he went there.
I think he was dying from the cancer and I think he knew he made a huge mistake with martindale.
1.) twi trustess all but shut him out with any decision making.
2.) He hated Atheletes of the Spirit. It was wrong by the "words" standard.
3.) He felt useless.
I think having his eye removed was the starting of the end.JMHO
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rascal
Oh, and don`t forget.... We were told that vpw at ANY time could have changed his mind and decided to live....had one single visitor in his last days asked a particular question....since they did not, he *turned his face to the wall*
He died of a *broken heart*....so he didn`t REALLY succumb to death, h chose to because of his dissapointment in us.....I remember that I was stricken with remorse....sigh just one more guilt trip laid on us:-(
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justloafing
Yeah I like that rascal. Funny thing about that whole thing. No one could ask the question, vp did not want to see anyone as he lay on his death bed. ole lcm went in and fainted. The whole logic of him willing himself to death is a joke. To lay that guilt trip on people was so "wayish"
Makes me think since Geer knew this (The Question), was he the one that killed vp? If it was my friend on that bed.I for sure as hell would have grabbed someone, anyone to ask that question so my friend would see a reason to live. How is that for a guilt trip? The logic of it all?
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signals
Well, he was Jesus to some, so cancer didn't kill him, he gave up the spirit. I'm not surprised that they turned it around and say it was the believers' fault, because they didn't believe enough or weren't there! In the business world the motto is 'deny everything and admit nothing!'
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George Aar
Somebody refresh my memory. At CorpseWeak '86 didn't Howard say that he and the other trustees were responsible for the Vickster's death?
I remember him making some momentous confession from the main stage, but I forget exactly what was said (other than noting that Craig looked like a whooped pup).
Corps Week '86 was definitely a trip to Bizarro World. It's amazing that anyone continued to hang around after that nonsense...
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Oakspear
Here's what Howie wrote above his signature at the end of the POP:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/gallery/papletter.gif
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lindyhopper
Whoa.
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My3Cents
And why would anyone assume his insights, opinons or judgement was anymore valid at this point in his life than before or after?
Just curious.
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Oakspear
I don't know...who's assuming that?
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Trefor Heywood
"Mr Personality" signals?
I though he handed over to Loy Craig Martindale!
:D-->
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Trefor Heywood
"Plausible deniability" seems to be the attitude that the leadership took by trying to find a host of other reasons and underplaying the fact that VPW had made such emphasis on the spiritual nature of the disease.
To admit he had been in major error on this point would be to invite questioning as to his errors in other areas also. They tried to keep the real truth hidden in what was to be a vain attempt to keep the legend whole and pure.
And to a great extent they succeeded as it was LCM that was to bring TWI to its knees, yet another major error that VPW made.
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signals
Perhaps I was thinking of Wink Martindale
:D--> I wonder if they're related?
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Trefor Heywood
Well if so he was a complete winker! (did I spell that right)?
;)-->
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HCW
I was on staff @ HQ, basically, from 1979 until 1988. I say basically, because I spent a year in residence at Emporia, a year in Indiana as a WOW and a a few blocks at the other root locations before coming back on staff '83 & staying through '88.
-- There was no mandate from HQ to keep VP's health condition secret. I was well connected enough that I'd have heard if there was. HQ was "rumor capital of the (way)world."
The fact that so many of you share the testimonies given above on this thread is in itself a testament to a BIG part of the problem with TWI. Same as in any church, people "take the ball & run with it." More often than not they run down the worst road available.
What has been said above says a LOT about the leadership in your areas.
Before anyone jumps me, let me say I'm also not the one to defend VP. Nor am I the one to defend anything about TWI. I just try and take a position on TWI that is factual and reality based.
Some facts as I've witnessed myself are:
- - VP's condition was not secret, it just wasn't publicised and as someone else mentioned; not shouted from the rooftops. As Linda Z said, VP sorta "dissapeared" for a long while when his healthe declined. I knew he was getting tests & stuff done like that cause I hung with one of his son's in law a good bit.
I always HATED the fact that TWI would, in essence, hide things under the auspicies of "not confessing negatives." I was an outspoken advocate of telling people "negatives;" as in "The WORD says when we pray we should be specific."
The debate was that telling the general TWI populace "ALL of the facts" would cause more damage than do good, noting how people tend to go down the negative path.... I felt that was BS. I felt that we should trust the people whose money we used to supply our livings to be smart enough to PRAY when they heard of extreme things concerning THEIR ministry, rather than FREAK.
Please keep in mind the climate of the times was that Government and military would keep LOTS of stuff away from people (Watergate anyone?). It wasn't really a TWI thing, TWI leadership just bought into it.
- - I, as keeper of TWI's historical photo files, saw the pictures from the filming of PFAL. I saw his eyes swollen, cold wrags applied to his eyes between filming sessions. I saw pictures of his getting extra makeup applied to dark circles around his eyes. Yes. The eye which was later removed was worse than the other.
- - VP later regretted being talked into (as he put it) having his eye removed. He hated wearing his glass eye. He never got used to it. It didn't look natural as "they" said it would. It wouldn't turn in concert with his other eye, so he often looked cockeyed. It was wierd, people would stare, then look away trying not to stare. He really wasn't the same after that. For those of you who wish that he was emaciated, or knocked down a few notches... he WAS. Taking his eye was a point of no return for him. He really hated being like that, it was torment fo him.
- - His health declined on a "normal" glide-path, so to speak. The "rapid decline" thing was part of the legend. He knew he didn't have much time left when he went to Gartmore, that's WHY he went, especially when he did. He actually didn't seem to want to be around much longer. There were lots of folks who were leaving HQ who had been "lifers" they were disgusted with how things were, just didn't want to be there @ HQ anymore.
- - It was LCM, more than VP that started the MOG for our times crap I never heard VP ask to be called that, nor did I ever read it in any of his books or magazine articles or "By The Way" essays. There was a BIG difference between the HQ & left and the one I came back to two years later, then after the Corps. The HQ I left was like a big family, I came back to a colder, less personal corporation. When I left "everybody" was on a first name, even nickname basis. We called the older folks by titles, Mrs. Allen, Mrs. Owens, Mrs. Wierwille. Us younger folk called VPW "Dr." as a nickname, not a formal title. The real "oldtimers" called him VP. There was no confrontation or reproof about titles.
Craig & Rosalie took more and more power. Rosalie proported herself to have VP's ear and spoke "as if she knew" in VP's stead. She instituted policy and procedure and more policy and more procedure. Red tape abounded where we used to be more like Nike - Just do it. The more power they & the trustees exercised, the more VP operated kinda covertly. It was covert in the sense that since HE was VP, he could do what he wanted, when he wanted. He didn't HAVE to tell anybody what he was doing, nor did he have to go through the approval process to do anything.
Eventually the trustees relented and figured that if he was traveling around teaching, he wouldn't be "messing things up" around HQ. For example. I used to get direct calls from his secretary(s) or aide(s), even Chris Geer when he had the job, "Dr. Wants to see you in the motorcoach, what's a good time for you to get away."
I'd drop whatever project I was working on and go. On the way out the door I'd say, "I'm going to the motorcoach Dr. VPW wants to see me." That kinda P.O'ed department leadership cause they couldn't "nazi" me. Deadlines would move, meetings could wait, etc. VP had ultimate clout.
My job put me in front of VP, LCM, the trustees and other major leadership on a pretty regular basis. I got to know them all personally, beyond the employee relationship.
- - Yes. VP did hate the Athletes thing. He also hated them putting his name on the auditorium, he hated pretty much everything that was going on at HQ in the last years of his life. He actually ordered that his name NOT be put on the building. LCM waited until he died and had the sign changed; among his first few, "I'm REALLY in charge now" statements.
Things became progressively bad at HQ through the mid to late '80s. There was a constant "battle" between the "real Old-Timers" and the new, young, Corps kids who didn't know crap about how we did things.
As VP's health declined, there was more and more of "That's how VP used to run things, we don't do that anymore." The more and more that people got fed up & left, the more some of us felt we should stay and "fight for the Word."
Basically it became just more and more of a fight.
It was difficult for a lot of people to see VP weak. He spent most of his last years of vitality traveling around teaching, writing his "By The Way" articles for the St. Marys newspaper and overseeing Way Productions. He was on his own massive PR campaign to win the favor of the locals around HQ. It worked very well in terms of outreach. Then internally, there was that whole "I Wish I Were The Man I Know To Be" song thing. That was the beginning of Harve Platig's rise to power. Prior to that Harve was just yet another decent guitarist, which in those days in the ministry they were a dime a dozen. If memory serves, Harve presented that song to VP as a gift during one of his visits to Emporia while Harve was in residence in the ninth Corps.
VP loved it & made Harve a star by having him play it all over the country. I remember VP teaching the same teaching, "The Joy of Service" over and over & over again. He said that teaching was the key to saving the ministry after he was gone. The trusteezs made VP more and more of an "emeritus" icon. They wanted him to fade away. They pushed him into a corner, and gradually turned him from founder & President to just plain old founder, then ancient history. They would trot him out like, "look at our wonderful founder, our father in the word!" like "wave at the peoples, VP - - now go sit down in your special seat."
He went to Gartmore for "no apparent reason." most folks didn't know he was gone or where he was. Back in the day we ALWAYS knew when VP was, it was even "event-worthy" when he came home. We used to line the circle drive to pray & wish him well when he left, and we could take a break form working to go say hello when he came home. That faded away after Craig took over. Nonoby really though enough of Craig to stop working when he got back from anywhere.
When VP got back from Gartmore he was largely inneffective by then. All of his "projects" had to be "approved" and thrown into the red tape bin that was everything else that we did. Some of them even didn't get done - - a major change.
- - A lot of people at HQ, myself included, were really ****** about the "VP died of a broken heart" announcement. Again that came from LCM. We were basically give a scripted announcement that was supposed to be a "blue alert" that was to go through the wat tree.
I distinctly remember saying, "what?" that's BS, how can you DIE of a broken heart???
POP later laid the blame for VP's decline into death suqarely at the feet of Martindale and the rest of the trustees for their betrayal of the ministry and God and VP personally.
POP, as you know, stated that the then current BOT had turned their backs on God and had systematically turned the ministry away from God and His work. They ALL admitted to it and read their hand written comments concerning the same, that were signed as part of their signatures, like Oakspear mentioned.
I was there front row center balcony the night CG read POP. At that time, I think we felt the long battle was "over" and we could finally work to return HQ the homey, "family place" it once was. VP was gone, it was then up to US to turn the ship around and sail into the future with God.
Of course you know that never happened. I never knew CG that well, beyond smalltalk greeting type stuff. He wasn't widely liked, but everyone respected him You either liked him or didn't. Somewhere along the way it did become a major power struggle for control of the entire ministry.
There were rumors long before POP that once VP stepped down there was a power struggle for the ministry. As I've shared before in other threads, the general line on Craig as President was to let him run around teaching and leading the Corps and let Donnie & Howard run the business.
In the early days VP ran the business, did the teachings, pretty much everything. LCM wanted to be VP Jr. Donnie wanted to be the corporate, defacto-president, as ViceP in that he was in charge of all of the business aspects of the ministry. Howard wanted complete control of Gunnison.
They were willing to give CG Great Britain, as long as he reported to them. CG said, "Bulls@#t, I'm NOT gonna be under YOU, you Goddless, murdering *******s." Craigers said, "Oh yes you are." Chris ceseeded (sp?) from TWI, took as much of VP's works with him as he could get. He outmanuevered the TWI legal dept. to keep whatever copyrighted stuff he wound up with. Craig got mad and started calling HIM possessed.
Then LCM said, Seeing as CG had all of these Devil spirits over there in Gartmore, he infested VP with them when VP went to him for "help." This caused VP to decline very rapidly. THEN he came over here and blindsided our well meaning asses with his spiritual coup attempt to take the ministry from us. His army of spirits seduced us because we were vulnerable, still suffering from our (and my personal) grief from the loss of our father in the word.
LCM continued with: I know what we said when he was here I know what I/we wrote at POP. I know the promises we made, we were not possessed, but we were certainly INFLUENCED by CHRIS's demons. He's the possessed one, not us.
That was LCM's story and apparently he stuck to it.... and RAN with it.
That "VP gave up the ghost" stuff came from Craig. There were some rumblings @ HQ about the BS factor around VP's cause of death. Then it was announced that we'd be told the exact cause later. Then we were told later he died of melanoma. Few people knew what it was until some looked it up as being cancer. I don't remember one word of possession talk regarding Vp's death. The teaching (to repeat what someone said above) was that cancer was CAUSED by devil sprits, and that a person could GET cancer and not be possessed.
LCM certainly needed the whole possessed thing to control people. He preyed on people's innocence and desire to know God. I also believe it was a MAJOR mistake to make LCM president. Craig didn't go along with his being the "spiritual head" of the ministry and Donnie W. running the business. Even during the "glory years" VP turned more and more of the day to day operations of the ministry over to those of us more qualified than he to do whatever.
That was part of the "natural evolution" of TWI. By the time VP became ill, he was basically out of "running" TWI. toward his end it was more like, "No you're not coming BACK and running things like you used to. In the old, old days when we were small you could "do everything." Now we're just too big, we need policies and procedures...."
The President position had evolved. VP was happy to be able to tell people, "You're the professional, you tell ME how we should do it." When I worked with him, he'd tell me somethinkg like. "I'm thinking about writing thus and so in my fall letter to the believers, can you do a letterhead that goes with that theme?" I'd go do it. Then I'd call him & set up a meeting wto explain my thought process of how I came up with what I did. We had many good conversations about thought processess and the "why's" behind this that and the other thing we did in the ministry.
I got to know him and his vision for the ministry pretty well. That was why I felt I should stay at HQ to help lead in the original vision for the ministry, seeing as I'd heard firsthand from the "horse's mouth" what he felt about a LOT of it. In light of that I did basically all the promotional work for PFAL, the WOW program, The Way Corps, Rock of ages and the University of Life. They still use my logo on the magazine and my overall design for it.
Sorry for the long post. There was a good bit of stuff to address from an insider's point of view. I know how a lot of you guys feel about VP and I don't blame nor condemn you for your position. I do believe, however, in agreement with yet another post above, that VP did many things that were atypical for your average "Pinky & the Brain" cult leader, bent on world domination. Especially waaaaayyyy back in "The Chimes Hour Youth Caravan" days.
Back then there just weren't a lot of available hot yound chicks for him to be lecherous with. The advent of the hippies in the late '60s - early '70s and the prevailing free sex, drugs & rock & roll era certainly brough opportunities that he obviously took advantage of. Honestly, for all I knew of him and combined with my own personal experiences in ministry, I don't know which came first, "the chicken or the egg."
TWI history has revealed to us that he at the very least felt he could get away with the extracirricular stuff he was doing.
TWI history also reveals that TWI was bigger and more than VP. My position is to give credit where credit is due. Some of our "leadership" were straight up "assh*(@$" when they came to TWI. VPW too. Drawn away of his OWN lusts, enticed....
Later;
-hc
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GrouchoMarxJr
In retrospect, the comedy of twi was the almost Shakespearean dramatics that always maintained itself as an underurrent of "waybrain reality"...it began with the snow on the gas pumps and ended with the "Passing of the Poop"...always, the destiny of mankind seemed to be riding on the success of an adulterous cornfield preacher and the willingness of his glassy eyed followers to provide a free work force that would recruit EVEN MORE glassyeyed followers into the household of his holy spermsickle cult.
...but then it happened...the great man of god became possessed by a "cancer spirit"...as Loy danced away in his color coordinated tights...
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signals
Interesting post, hc. Thanks for the insider view.
KISS=Knights In Service of Satan as I remember.
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diazbro
Linda Z posted:
I've heard this before also though no such distinction was made towards those in the field who had cancer. They were considered as being possessed. I know of no exceptions to this.
Now. Even if one believed that VPW was somehow exempt from this - that he had a disease caused by a devil spirit yet he was not possessed (his personality was not impaired or influenced by satan) its still a mystery as to why this could happen to "The Teacher". What did he do to let the "adversary invade that hedge of protection" ? He must have been "out of fellowship" so what did he do ? My point is that believers in the field were berated for far less significant health problems yet VPW wasn't for having something as serious as cancer ?
Sure there was a coverup. After his eye replacement I and many people in my area asked pointed questions to our leadership about the change in VPW's appearance. The MOST we could get from anyone were comments to the effect that he had "exhausted himself in service to the Body" and additional questions were met with a change of subject. Later on MORE people had questions and we were reproved for being "too concerned" with things that "didn't really matter" (i.e. VPW's appearance).
When he died it was entirely natural that questions would emerge relative to the cause of his death. He was the so called "Father In The Word" so why woudln't people want to know ? This is when it became apparent to me that people were sitting on this truth. Whether or not it was a mandate to conceal it I don't know. BUT in my area we were lied to by several people who were "up there" in terms of leadership. One explanation was that VPW had "fought the good fight" and it was time to for him to "Rest".
Another well worn response was "what does it matter how he died ? Didn't he teach you the Word ? " Total evasive BS ! They just didn't want to have to explain to people why they applied a different standard to VPW.
So this came at a time when a fellow died who had been WOW twice passed away and these same leaders talked about how he had "let the adversary tear his believing down" and how he had done something to "let satan through the headge of protection". But did they apply the same statements to VPW ? Hell no !!! He was still considered as a valid substitute for the "absent christ".
I left TWI around 84 and I NEVER encountered one leader who would come out openly and say that VP died of cancer ! There were people who knew this and would talk about it but no one would discuss this at Twig or at meetings. Once I had heard that VPW had cancer I asked several people about it and all I heard were totally defensive remarks like "well so what ? Everyone dies of something".
TWI could have come clean - hell VPW could have come clean when he was diagnosed and openly admitted that the so called law of believing was flawed. but NO. He didn't !See he could have been up front about it but he wasn't. Why not ?
Maybe because he would have to admit that he was WRONG ? Good Lord... This man lied by keeping silent ? This was when believers in the field were being torn new ones for having less significant illnesses yet VPW was still held up as "The Teacher" ? This is whacked in SO many ways... Its sick....
The most odd thing here is that had he been open about having cancer people would have prayed for him ! They wouldn't have been mad at him or even applied the same derision towards the ill that his suck-up yes men did. People would have been supportive. But NO. He wanted to keep TWI money-making machine moving ahead at full steam.
This is the ultimate crime.
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Trefor Heywood
Even worse were the claims that VP had "believed to die."
That way they were not only covering up the cancer but also trying to maintain the accuracy of "the law of believing."
This law had equal feet of clay to the devil spirits and cancer claims and needed shoring up with such preposterous nonsense.
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Sunesis
Yes, his appearance did change drastically after he want for his eye operation. Mild stroke, it paralyzed one side of his face. I don't think even the top leadership were told that. I also think its why he was away for so long - then just came back to H.Q. unannounced.
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Belle
They still don't talk about it and they still won't admit that he died of cancer.
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jardinero
Well, I’ve been meaning to add to this thread for sometime, not only for the topic at hand, but with the news about John Hendricks who many people didn’t know as well as other twi leadership, I thought I would add the following info. Perhaps I can drag Tonto and her hubby out of hiding (and a few of you other lurkers) to put in their two cents also about this topic. I haven’t thought about his stuff for years, but a few of you (like HCW) jogged some thoughts, so hopefully I can fill in a few blanks. I’ll try to break up the pages some, so it’s not such a pain to read.
I was in twi from 1973-1989, mostly in Calif. during that time. Oversaw a twig from ’74 on; branch leader with hubby in a large metro area; attended every ROA from ’74 to ’88, so we saw plenty. We waited a long time to go in the Corps and finally got enough gumption to go in after numerous waves of administrative lackeys and MOG-wannabes were sent out to “take over” areas that had been started years ago from scratch and nurtured over the years with a lot of love and care (by non-Corps believers). Delusional as we were, we honestly thought by going in we could change things (you may all chuckle now).
So off to Rome City hubby, our 6 year old son and I go entering into Family Ways Corps XI - - the first year of John & MaryAnn Hendricks’ tenure as Family Corps Coordinators. Wayne & Fern Clapp had been there for a few years under the reign of Moynihan and some other young assistant nazi, whose name escapes me- - Wayne as the campus dean. David Turk was there for a short time - - don’t remember what happened to him. Jim & Marjorie Plunkett did a lot of the work program. The Kleiwers (sp?) were still there on farms/gardening, etc. Butch & Sherri - - lots of wonderful people still.
Imagine our surprise and thrill on our very first opening night when we find out that vp and Mrs. W. would be there with us!
Side note here: We had been very concerned about vpw, as one Sunday during our apprentice year, we had the whole branch over our house for a SNS phone hook up on which vpw was the teacher. What we heard after he was announced was shocking and disturbing. VPW was teaching alright, but was slurring and speaking so slowly - - it caused all us loyal wayfers lots of concern and alarm. This was no Drambuie slur. This sounded like he had had a stroke. I don’t know the name of the teaching but it was something about the tribe of Chad -- - maybe one of you remembers that one. Odd thing to us. No one talked about it. No mention of any illness. No comment from vp about being under the weather. Nothing. Just left us hanging and speculating - - and very alarmed about our “father in the Word”’s health.
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jardinero
Back to opening night of our Corps. John welcomes us and then turns it over to vp. VP looks around and then what we heard next confirmed a lot of growing concerns we had been harboring about the ministry, but only discussed in private. He was serious, somber and by the tone of his voice, we could tell, this was going to be something very “heavy”. He looked old, tired and for many of us, it was the first time we had seen him up close and personal since he had gotten the fake eye. VP tells us that he had been concerned about the direction of the Way Corps for some time. It had really gotten away from the original intent and heart - - and he was going to see to it that it had a chance to change. He told us that “none of those guys” at HQ listened to him any more. He was “out of the loop” and was not consulted any more on decisions that were being made. “Well, I overrode everyone on this and just did it.” He said that he had hand-picked John and Mary Ann to come here and run this thing - - and if John will listen, there will be a Way Corps program again.
I can’t remember everything he talked about, nor am I one of those diary freaks - - but the gist of the rest of what he discussed centered around the work program. The program, he said, had become too academic - - and made some implication about Don W’s influence on that. A big part of the Corps program needed to be the work program, he said. If people didn’t learn the discipline of hard work, then they’d never be able to “work the word.” So he felt like this was a good place to start over. With the Family Corps. And he said - - and it’s probably not for you guys - - but for your kids. He talked up Greg and Cindy Bernardini a bit - - particularly Cindy - - and said that it was for the kids that this program had to continue - - “if the Word was ever going to live past this generation.”
O.K. Pregnant pause here. Our heads were swimming. This was heavy. No one listened to our beloved Dr. Wierwille? [Flashback to that ROA and a comment Don had made that ****** off hubby royally. He said something about the staff at HQ being the “true” corps. The staff were the spiritual ones who were keeping the Word alive. Not all the believers and Corps on the field!] The Corps program was screwed up? (Well, duh! We coulda told you that! He had just confirmed everything we had been seeing for the past number of years on the field!) John H. was “hand picked”? For us? Boy did we feel like we were spiritual going in when we did! Ha!
I honestly can’t remember anything John said that night. I know he pretty much, as his manner would be for the remainder of the year, deferred to vp. If vp was there, John didn’t say much. If vp was gone, we could expect John to be short, direct and pointed.
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