Yeh gotta agree with Allan...VP always said he was an APostle..to introduce new light , if I remember right! Never saw or heard him EVER utter any prophecy which was to either come true or not at the BRC or Auditorium..but there again I wasn't WC & at HQ only now & then.
A false prophet would say ie...that America would be attacked in l976 and over run by the Russians..BUT for the sake of all those believing believers of da Way..it could & was prevented. Anyone recollect that?
Didn't VPW define a prophet as "one who speaks for God" .... ?? Regardless of any fortelling.
By his own definition and considering some of his tales and stories, I think he slyly and subtley implied that he was a prophet whether --he out and out said it or not. He wanted US to put his definitions, stories and other crapola together and in our minds make him an apostle, prophet etc. He didn't have to say it.
Can`t argue with her reasoning or the content of her post so you attack the poster eh Oldies?
Same oldie same oldie ... you got nothing of value to offer in support of your belief.... only thing left is to try to obfuscate by slamming the poster.
What a shame you are incapable of seeing the wisdome of what Sunesis shared.
VPW would say that a prophet is one who brings new light to his generation....
and in the next breath he`d say ...
God told me, that he would teach me the word like it had never been known since the first century....
Damn STAIGHT he wanted us to believe that he was a prophet....guess there are no fake degrees to purchase proclaiming one to be a prophet or we`d a had to refer to him as DOCTOR vpw THE prophet of God almighty for this day and age.....
When teaching about Uriah....he would say that since all of the women of the kingdome belonged to the KING...David hadn`t sinned with Bathsheba.........
At another time he would teach that TODAYS ministers took the place of old testament kings....because God would work through them to minister to/make himself known to his people.
That was one of the lines of reasoning behind why it was ok for him to have any woman he wanted ...married or single, teen or older, it was his due.
Can`t remember now if he said that it was apostle or prophet now that you press me on it Allan...well it was one or the other....guess after two decades the memort slips a little. Does anybody else remember which?
Allan, there is NOTHING that I have posted whether it has been teaching`s heard or experiences endured that have not been corroberated by other posters.
VP DID say those things....guess you must not have been present for those teachings....doesn`t mean it wasn`t taught and heard directly from vp`s lips.
I am truly sorry that twi and vpw were not what you thought it was Allan.
I myself am grieved that it was not what I dedicated my heart and life to for 15 years.
I wish that it had been, God I truly wish we had been right.... we`d a changed the world :-(
Can`t remember now if he said that it was apostle or prophet now that you press me on it Allan...well it was one or the other....guess after two decades the memort slips a little. Does anybody else remember which?
He claimed "an apostle is one who brings new light to his generation.
It may be old light, but to the people he brings it to, it's new."
Actually, an apostle is a SENT ONE. vpw invented his definition so that it would just
happen to apply to him.
He claimed he was teaching "The Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century".
Therefore, he expected his audience to figure out he was supposedly an apostle.
As Goey pointed out, he said "a prophet is one who speaks for God."
It IS true that he claimed that "technically" David's sin with Bathsheba was NOT
adultery, since "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king."
That's straight out of PFAL, both the classes and the books.
It comes up frequently on lists of Actual Errors in pfal.
Apostle: Carries new light to his generation might be old or previous light but it is new to the generation he speaks to.
Prophet: Speaks for God in the very essence of the Old Test. Prophets who said "Thus saith the Lord"
Foretelling- is incidental not primary to the ministry of a prophet.
Then he adds the footnote In the Gospels, it does not talk of Jesus Christ as an apostle,prophet,ect it talks of him taking the people aside and teaching them. Any man called of God will at times operate all five. But the greatest and foundation of the five is the teaching ministry and the love of the pastor who takes care of the people.
So to answer your question I would think VPW thought of himself as a teacher hense the Biblical teaching and research ministry....
Ok, next question....Does a false prophet necessarily have to KNOW he is a false prophet?
I mean could vp have REALLY done all of his reading and studying....come up with all of his formulas and principles concerning spirituality....and have completely missed the boat spiritually?
Could he be so blinded by technique, studying to show himself aproved...figuring that the *works* of research in and of themselves was what made you spiritual....so engrossed in his method....that he entirely missed what true spirituality, love, christianilty was all about as witnessed by his actions and fruit?
I guess what I am asking is ....is it possible to be evil, cause mass destruction and still believe that you are doing the will of God?
I think you are missunderstanding me Rascal, cause I do think VP was wacked. I just dont think he was a despot like Jim Jones.
You know Rascal, I never had years of pain with the Way like some did, but I have had years of pain with some other stuff. The key question is how do we deal with the donuts of pain this stuff causes. Let me explain.
After a 4 year hayedous with a somewhat "wacked" Assembly group, I became somewhat embittered toward God. After a short period I came to understand a scripture in a new way. It was Hebrews 6:10, "for God is not unrighteous to forget your labor of love etc etc." The point being? That God has better things for me, for you and just because you feel forgotten in it all, their is still a reward. Look for that reward and maturity Rascal, why?
Because I see it in you. Your a leader now, not a follower, and can easily chill the questionable teachings , doctrines and stuff that others cannot. That Rascal is one huge benefit.
Is what I said above enough of a benefit? No it is not Rascal, and I agree with you on that. But keep in mind one thing, it is immpossible to outgive God. Their will be plenty of Roses down the road and you can count on it.
I am not trying to put a smiley face on your pain either Rascal, but its good that sufferings are put behind us for the glory that is sure to follow. So cheery up.
Yeah! That apostle definition of VPW was one boat load of hogwash.
He also conviently forgot the part Paul spoke of that the Apostles were, "the offscurrinying of the earth" despised men. Then, he conviently added that the churches despised him for the same reason.
As far as what VPW actually was (and I speak to you too Rascal) I think he was a huckster, a charlatan, a man who had perfected a routine or an act to his own benefit. In fact, I think he was really good at his craft. I think VP would have been one heck of a used car salesman.
By the way, here is the definition of a charlatan and I think it fits VP really well: A charlatan is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money or advantage by false pretenses.
one thing for sure, no one held a gun to our head to be involved in TWI. most of us voluntarily participated, gave our $$$$ to this organization and voluntarily promoted it to others. I for one regret all the years (over twelve) that I gave to them, time I should have been preparing for a career, an education or doing something more productive. one of the EX-TWI'ers in Dallas said we were Way Niggers. (not referencing any particular race or nationality of course).
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Ham
Can't lay that at this one con man's feet..
I didn't see a stinking one..
Sure CLAIMED they could produce them though. Does that count?
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oldiesman
This one is almost as good as the one about E.W. Kenyon. Ya remember that one, Sunesis? He was a spiritualist?
I mean, look at all those times he says to use the name of Jesus in The Wonderful Name of Jesus. Real Creepy Guy.
I think my CAT has more spiritual perception.
I still love ya.
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Second James
Yeh gotta agree with Allan...VP always said he was an APostle..to introduce new light , if I remember right! Never saw or heard him EVER utter any prophecy which was to either come true or not at the BRC or Auditorium..but there again I wasn't WC & at HQ only now & then.
A false prophet would say ie...that America would be attacked in l976 and over run by the Russians..BUT for the sake of all those believing believers of da Way..it could & was prevented. Anyone recollect that?
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Goey
Didn't VPW define a prophet as "one who speaks for God" .... ?? Regardless of any fortelling.
By his own definition and considering some of his tales and stories, I think he slyly and subtley implied that he was a prophet whether --he out and out said it or not. He wanted US to put his definitions, stories and other crapola together and in our minds make him an apostle, prophet etc. He didn't have to say it.
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rascal
Can`t argue with her reasoning or the content of her post so you attack the poster eh Oldies?
Same oldie same oldie ... you got nothing of value to offer in support of your belief.... only thing left is to try to obfuscate by slamming the poster.
What a shame you are incapable of seeing the wisdome of what Sunesis shared.
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rascal
As far as HIS claims of being a prophet...
VPW would say that a prophet is one who brings new light to his generation....
and in the next breath he`d say ...
God told me, that he would teach me the word like it had never been known since the first century....
Damn STAIGHT he wanted us to believe that he was a prophet....guess there are no fake degrees to purchase proclaiming one to be a prophet or we`d a had to refer to him as DOCTOR vpw THE prophet of God almighty for this day and age.....
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rascal
Some OTHER *new* light that he used to share....
When teaching about Uriah....he would say that since all of the women of the kingdome belonged to the KING...David hadn`t sinned with Bathsheba.........
At another time he would teach that TODAYS ministers took the place of old testament kings....because God would work through them to minister to/make himself known to his people.
That was one of the lines of reasoning behind why it was ok for him to have any woman he wanted ...married or single, teen or older, it was his due.
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Allan
Rascal..sorry but you've quoted VP wrong, he never taught a prophet brings new light.
I do wonder if some of you ever were in twi and if you were if anything ever sunk in and if it didn't what were you in it for ?!
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rascal
Can`t remember now if he said that it was apostle or prophet now that you press me on it Allan...well it was one or the other....guess after two decades the memort slips a little. Does anybody else remember which?
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rascal
Allan, there is NOTHING that I have posted whether it has been teaching`s heard or experiences endured that have not been corroberated by other posters.
VP DID say those things....guess you must not have been present for those teachings....doesn`t mean it wasn`t taught and heard directly from vp`s lips.
I am truly sorry that twi and vpw were not what you thought it was Allan.
I myself am grieved that it was not what I dedicated my heart and life to for 15 years.
I wish that it had been, God I truly wish we had been right.... we`d a changed the world :-(
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WordWolf
He claimed "an apostle is one who brings new light to his generation.
It may be old light, but to the people he brings it to, it's new."
Actually, an apostle is a SENT ONE. vpw invented his definition so that it would just
happen to apply to him.
He claimed he was teaching "The Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century".
Therefore, he expected his audience to figure out he was supposedly an apostle.
As Goey pointed out, he said "a prophet is one who speaks for God."
It IS true that he claimed that "technically" David's sin with Bathsheba was NOT
adultery, since "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king."
That's straight out of PFAL, both the classes and the books.
It comes up frequently on lists of Actual Errors in pfal.
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rascal
Thanks Wolf....I apreciate the clarification...
Allan, I stand corrected.
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WhiteDove
Rascal
From the Corps notes on Ephesians 1973-1974 VPW
Apostle: Carries new light to his generation might be old or previous light but it is new to the generation he speaks to.
Prophet: Speaks for God in the very essence of the Old Test. Prophets who said "Thus saith the Lord"
Foretelling- is incidental not primary to the ministry of a prophet.
Then he adds the footnote In the Gospels, it does not talk of Jesus Christ as an apostle,prophet,ect it talks of him taking the people aside and teaching them. Any man called of God will at times operate all five. But the greatest and foundation of the five is the teaching ministry and the love of the pastor who takes care of the people.
So to answer your question I would think VPW thought of himself as a teacher hense the Biblical teaching and research ministry....
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rascal
Ok, next question....Does a false prophet necessarily have to KNOW he is a false prophet?
I mean could vp have REALLY done all of his reading and studying....come up with all of his formulas and principles concerning spirituality....and have completely missed the boat spiritually?
Could he be so blinded by technique, studying to show himself aproved...figuring that the *works* of research in and of themselves was what made you spiritual....so engrossed in his method....that he entirely missed what true spirituality, love, christianilty was all about as witnessed by his actions and fruit?
I guess what I am asking is ....is it possible to be evil, cause mass destruction and still believe that you are doing the will of God?
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WhiteDove
I would say No he does not . Yes, Yes, Yes to the other three questions.
The apostle Paul is a good example look at the evil and death he did because he thought he was serving God.
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rascal
Good point on the Apostle Paul.
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sky4it
Rascal:
I think you are missunderstanding me Rascal, cause I do think VP was wacked. I just dont think he was a despot like Jim Jones.
You know Rascal, I never had years of pain with the Way like some did, but I have had years of pain with some other stuff. The key question is how do we deal with the donuts of pain this stuff causes. Let me explain.
After a 4 year hayedous with a somewhat "wacked" Assembly group, I became somewhat embittered toward God. After a short period I came to understand a scripture in a new way. It was Hebrews 6:10, "for God is not unrighteous to forget your labor of love etc etc." The point being? That God has better things for me, for you and just because you feel forgotten in it all, their is still a reward. Look for that reward and maturity Rascal, why?
Because I see it in you. Your a leader now, not a follower, and can easily chill the questionable teachings , doctrines and stuff that others cannot. That Rascal is one huge benefit.
Is what I said above enough of a benefit? No it is not Rascal, and I agree with you on that. But keep in mind one thing, it is immpossible to outgive God. Their will be plenty of Roses down the road and you can count on it.
I am not trying to put a smiley face on your pain either Rascal, but its good that sufferings are put behind us for the glory that is sure to follow. So cheery up.
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sky4it
Wordwolf:
Yeah! That apostle definition of VPW was one boat load of hogwash.
He also conviently forgot the part Paul spoke of that the Apostles were, "the offscurrinying of the earth" despised men. Then, he conviently added that the churches despised him for the same reason.
As far as what VPW actually was (and I speak to you too Rascal) I think he was a huckster, a charlatan, a man who had perfected a routine or an act to his own benefit. In fact, I think he was really good at his craft. I think VP would have been one heck of a used car salesman.
By the way, here is the definition of a charlatan and I think it fits VP really well: A charlatan is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money or advantage by false pretenses.
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rascal
Thanks Sky4it, that is definatly food for thought....it would be great if there were really an upside to the horror that we promoted.
Twi couldn`t have survived or functioned without our efforts.
It really sucks to be a spirit filled christian and know that I was decieved into enabling Satan to hurt and destroy so many of our family members.
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rascal
Skyrider, good point. Because of his conduct, he WAS found unfit and dismissed as a minister of at least one church.
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jardinero
Hey Excie:
If you're reading this, do you think you could contact Jim Doop again and ask him to finish his post????
Curious minds would like to know.
Thanks.
J.
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rascal
Please excathedra?
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ChainClanker
one thing for sure, no one held a gun to our head to be involved in TWI. most of us voluntarily participated, gave our $$$$ to this organization and voluntarily promoted it to others. I for one regret all the years (over twelve) that I gave to them, time I should have been preparing for a career, an education or doing something more productive. one of the EX-TWI'ers in Dallas said we were Way Niggers. (not referencing any particular race or nationality of course).
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rascal
Umm, I am guessing that would be a resounding *NO* as far as believing twi a Godly place to be....lol
Welcome Chain Clanker ...
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