What sets vpw apart from the pharacees....Jim Jones, David Koresch, or any other religious tyrant in history that utilized God`s name to secure that which they desired for themselves?
I think being able to successfully identify which catagory the leaders of our ministry land in will be extremely important in determining how much credence I am able to give their interpretation of scriptures.
I think that if we can successfully identify which catagory these men fall in to, it will help me decide whether I owe these men, what is my responsibility .....
Does God require my appreciation for scriptures learned, my respect, and ultimatly my forgiveness?
or rather my utmost contempt and wariness when examining beliefs learned in twi.
Biblically, a false prophet is either one whose prophecies don't come true or one whose prophecies come true but still lead people away from the true God.
What makes one worthey of the contempt that Jesus had for the pharacees verses being worthey of the love and forgiveness due a fallen brother?
It makes a difference to me in deciding whether I am a bitter venom filled back biter ....or a christian, valiantly protecting and warning any unsuspecting folks from the evil of the hidden snares set to entrap the unwarey like proverbs talks about.
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Ezekiel 22:24-31
notably:
quote:
[There is] a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed [difference] between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
And her prophets have daubed them with untempered [morter], seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
There's more, of course. And it would be the exact opposite of the requirements for a minister in Timothy.
Acts 20:35, even the man TWI worships more than Jesus said:
quote:
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
I don't recall any of this being taught much less shown by example by TWI leadership.
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that HE (God) may exalt you in due time:
Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
Rascal, you asked what makes one worthy of contempt?
I recently read a great study on the word "blasphemy." Christ himself said, you can speak against me, but the one thing not forgiven is blasphemy against the holy spirit. I always wondered -what does this mean?
I won't go into mucho detail, but the essence of blasphemy is to set oneself up as a god - i.e., when satan said to Eve, you shall be as gods, to know... etc.
In other words, from this and various other uses, it is people who believe they can peer into the secrets of God, by works, mysticism, new age, channelling, or however they wish to do it - but the key is, they do it without Christ. They do it themselves, or with other teachers.
This put me in mind of TWI's "renewed mind" teaching. If we renewed our minds enough, we could be like Christ. If we believed enough, we could move mountains, if we did that, this would happen - we had the power to make God move for us! Exciting.... maybe.
The key was, it was all us - our power, our mind, our thoughts - you see the drift. Our "father in the Word," VPW was the master at this, the uber-believer, the one closest to Christ - so far. The one all corps strived to emulate.
Blasmphemy, making oneself on par with, or above God, showing one has "spiritual power" - and you can get it too, follow me, I'll show you what you need to do, its simple. For this Satan was cast down.
Over the years, I have come to believe VPW truly was one of Satan's men masquerading as an angel of light. And no marvel - why should we be surprised? From his early years, as a bully, not of good repute, to the way he treated his wife, to the destruction of marriages, sexual predatory nature, many abortions, the stealing of the work of "true" Christians and claiming it as his own, when he really didn't have an original spiritual thought of his own, the absent Christ, etc., the fruits of his ministry we see now - I believe he was not born again. I also believe at least one of his top henchmen was not either.
As for some of his other top men, I believe they were Christians, but were corrupted and led astray, I believe if they repent, there is forgiveness for them.
I guess it comes down to what Christ said, by their fruits you shall know them...
To me a false prophet is someone who promises they can show you God, how to manipulate him, how to be one with him, without Christ. I believe that while they believe they are looking into "spiritual" matters - they are delving into the secrets of the false god - which someday will be shown to be nothing, rags.
I believe many of these false prophets are pastors, Revs, workers in the church. And why not, who does Satan want to turn people away from? Not Budda, Allah, - everyone else is A-ok, except for Christ.
A question I would now ask myself is, where is this minister or pastor taking his people in his church? Where is he leading them? To a knowledge of Christ and his Word, or to a social, feel good, let's align with all the other religions and be tolerant, etc., religion?
"If a man desireth anything, he desireth a good desire.
"An overseer in the One True Household must be shameless, in name only the husband of one wife, witchulant, sober as a priest during communion, of wretched behaviour, given to horsing-around-ipality, apt to teach spewth;
Not given to wino, but drambuie's alright, can't be a biker (can't afford luxuries, you know), greedy of lucre (make sure its washed first), an assaulter of patients..."
this is exactly why I have problems with the personal prophecy movement that is so very popular today.
CES now spirit and Truth is INTO it heavy.
yet they teach that the prophecy can be wrong and folks need to have practice doing it to get it right... etc.
it doesnt make sense to me. I read in the above verses that if a person says the lord said it and He hath not they are false.
I understand the new testiment says we are to prophecy.. but this practice till we can be right maybe one day and hit or miss type of personal prophecy going around just feels and sounds wrong to me.
why would God tell somone something about another from HIM and leave room for error in light of the above verse?
I actualy think it lays a foundation for people worship I mean if ya come up with a real wing dinger and it please the people your in like flynn with the group.
so many times what the lord sent the prophets to say caused them to be killed by the people and shuned and not listened to it was sledom good news for the children.. that is why they often had a hard time obeying God in the doing of it.
no one wants to be the bad messenger. YET the bible reads that is when indeed He sent prophets to the people when they were not hearing what He had to say. why would a person not listen? because they do NOT want to hear what is being said of course.
this feel good I like you and look what I think God (maybe) told me to tell ya general happy go lucky you that loves us all together now personal prophecy stuff just doesnt make any darn sense to me in the scope of the bible.
Can anyone explain why wierwille`s behavior that was condemned in the priests and labled them as false prophets .... does not brand him as a false prophet as well?
What did wierwille do differently that would excuse him from this catagory?
I have felt for a long time that God simply couldn`t have condoned what happened to so many in twi simply because his word was being spoken :-(
I have deep feelings of betrayal to God that would call us to be there ... some to enjoy the bennies, some only to be hurt, used and in some cases utterly destroyed....all acceptable so long as we could aquire a general working knowledge of him:-(
The idea that God called us to be preyed upon in twi ....makes me want to hate him....
If instead, we can place twi/vp in the false prophet catagory working for Satan with a goal of drawing saints away from God...to steal, kill and destroy......it absolves God/christianity of the crimes committed in that name.
My next question, if you have the time to answere it, would be.........
Having decided that vpw might have been working for darkness....Are we under any compunction to forgive, or give him any of the respect or love that we would normally deem to be due a fellow human/ fallen christian?
Is there any reason that we should trust the doctrines taught in twi, considering that they may have been used to draw people away from God....to hurt people, to manipulate, to justify cruelty?
Is it all right to hate this man and his ministry?
Can we despise him like jesus did the pharacies and money changers?
Over the years, I have come to believe VPW truly was one of Satan's men masquerading as an angel of light. And no marvel - why should we be surprised? From his early years, as a bully, not of good repute, to the way he treated his wife, to the destruction of marriages, sexual predatory nature, many abortions, the stealing of the work of "true" Christians and claiming it as his own, when he really didn't have an original spiritual thought of his own, the absent Christ, etc., the fruits of his ministry we see now - I believe he was not born again. I also believe at least one of his top henchmen was not either.
Yeah.....I've strongly considered this as well.
Add to that........the early works in California and New York and North Carolina and how veepee engrafted these works as his own, running off the Christ-led leaders of that time, the marketing of pfal classes and hiding behind the scenes while wow ambassadors and others fronted the classes and ministered to the good-hearted people, the inner-circle corps program and raising up leaders two-fold the men of hell, the seduction/abusing/raping of corps women to fulfill his lusts, the unbridled adulation to the MOG - father of the word (ugh), and a death that was untimely wherein he "never finished his course" nor saw healing from the One True God.
Vpw died and cgeer was at his side. There was immediate cover-up and lies to perpetuate his martyrdom. To this day, twi continues to revere their "founder of darkness" and hide their millions unbeknownst to their followers. No accountability spiritually or financially.
Sunesis, that is an excellent post! Thank you so much!
I'll ditto what Skyrider said, vee pee definitely fits the characteristics of the devils we were taught about in DTA and the AC and the AC Special.
quote:
This put me in mind of TWI's "renewed mind" teaching. If we renewed our minds enough, we could be like Christ. If we believed enough, we could move mountains, if we did that, this would happen - we had the power to make God move for us! Exciting.... maybe.
The key was, it was all us - our power, our mind, our thoughts - you see the drift. Our "father in the Word," VPW was the master at this, the uber-believer, the one closest to Christ - so far. The one all corps strived to emulate.
We were taught to manipulate God, weren't we? "If you do this then God HAS to keep His word and do that for you". We were telling God what to do all the time and Christ was nowhere around.
Belle, I think therein lies the reason that I didn`t see very good results to my prayers while in twi.
It wasn`t untill I QUIT telling God what to do via claiming those principles, that I began to see a changes in my life .... Now days, it seems as if the blessings and joys precede my ability to even ask.
Ya know, before I got divorced I prayed with my ex one time in particular that I remember and I threw in "if it's your will"....OMG, you'd have thought I committed blasphemy or something! It ended up in this huge fight about me no longer telling God what to do for me since I figured he knows what's best for my life. I just wish I'd have listened to him sooner.....
I don't think I ever remember VPW referred to as a 'prophet' for starters, but rather an apostle and teacher.
Tricked by Satan, yes, one of satans' seed men..? get real!! why would satan allow so MANY to get born again, saved by way of VPWs' ministry and don't try to excuse it, MANY did, including myself and I am still very thankful I didn't get born-again in one of these fri**in 'fruitcake' other instituitions !!
Be honest and give (some)credit where credit is due, peace dudes, Allan.
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TaylorCompany
Nothing, absolutely nothing.
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rascal
I think being able to successfully identify which catagory the leaders of our ministry land in will be extremely important in determining how much credence I am able to give their interpretation of scriptures.
I think that if we can successfully identify which catagory these men fall in to, it will help me decide whether I owe these men, what is my responsibility .....
Does God require my appreciation for scriptures learned, my respect, and ultimatly my forgiveness?
or rather my utmost contempt and wariness when examining beliefs learned in twi.
What do I owe these men?
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GeorgeStGeorge
Biblically, a false prophet is either one whose prophecies don't come true or one whose prophecies come true but still lead people away from the true God.
George
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rascal
I think this is vital ....
What makes one worthey of the contempt that Jesus had for the pharacees verses being worthey of the love and forgiveness due a fallen brother?
It makes a difference to me in deciding whether I am a bitter venom filled back biter ....or a christian, valiantly protecting and warning any unsuspecting folks from the evil of the hidden snares set to entrap the unwarey like proverbs talks about.
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rascal
Thanks George, ok, so maybe I oughtta have added wolves in sheeps clothing or pharacees.
I mean one catagory earned Jesus`s anger and deepest contempt, the other (stumbling bretheren) we were exhorted to forgive...
What places vp and twi into either catagory and why? Other than because we loved and supported these guys....so they CAN`T be all that bad....
Isn`t that what any group will say of a given leader?
Are we reluctant to view our leaders in this catagory because it would mean that we had been fooled or cannot bear to be wrong?
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Ham
One thing I'd say, you can't accuse a false prophet of selling counterfiet sheep skins..
Edited for clarity..
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Belle
Maybe some "chapter and verse" would help?
Acts 13:6-13
Notably:
To the False Prophet Barjesus:
Ezekiel 22:24-31
notably:
There's more, of course. And it would be the exact opposite of the requirements for a minister in Timothy.
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rascal
Thanks Belle, do you happen to know where in Timothy?
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Belle
Rascal it starts in 1Ti 3:1
That's through verse 12. Each break is a new verse.
Hmmmmmmm......doesn't sound like any ministers I've had contact with in TWI.
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Belle
Acts 20:35, even the man TWI worships more than Jesus said:
I don't recall any of this being taught much less shown by example by TWI leadership.
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Belle
1 Peter 5:1-9
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Sunesis
Rascal, you asked what makes one worthy of contempt?
I recently read a great study on the word "blasphemy." Christ himself said, you can speak against me, but the one thing not forgiven is blasphemy against the holy spirit. I always wondered -what does this mean?
I won't go into mucho detail, but the essence of blasphemy is to set oneself up as a god - i.e., when satan said to Eve, you shall be as gods, to know... etc.
In other words, from this and various other uses, it is people who believe they can peer into the secrets of God, by works, mysticism, new age, channelling, or however they wish to do it - but the key is, they do it without Christ. They do it themselves, or with other teachers.
This put me in mind of TWI's "renewed mind" teaching. If we renewed our minds enough, we could be like Christ. If we believed enough, we could move mountains, if we did that, this would happen - we had the power to make God move for us! Exciting.... maybe.
The key was, it was all us - our power, our mind, our thoughts - you see the drift. Our "father in the Word," VPW was the master at this, the uber-believer, the one closest to Christ - so far. The one all corps strived to emulate.
Blasmphemy, making oneself on par with, or above God, showing one has "spiritual power" - and you can get it too, follow me, I'll show you what you need to do, its simple. For this Satan was cast down.
Over the years, I have come to believe VPW truly was one of Satan's men masquerading as an angel of light. And no marvel - why should we be surprised? From his early years, as a bully, not of good repute, to the way he treated his wife, to the destruction of marriages, sexual predatory nature, many abortions, the stealing of the work of "true" Christians and claiming it as his own, when he really didn't have an original spiritual thought of his own, the absent Christ, etc., the fruits of his ministry we see now - I believe he was not born again. I also believe at least one of his top henchmen was not either.
As for some of his other top men, I believe they were Christians, but were corrupted and led astray, I believe if they repent, there is forgiveness for them.
I guess it comes down to what Christ said, by their fruits you shall know them...
To me a false prophet is someone who promises they can show you God, how to manipulate him, how to be one with him, without Christ. I believe that while they believe they are looking into "spiritual" matters - they are delving into the secrets of the false god - which someday will be shown to be nothing, rags.
I believe many of these false prophets are pastors, Revs, workers in the church. And why not, who does Satan want to turn people away from? Not Budda, Allah, - everyone else is A-ok, except for Christ.
A question I would now ask myself is, where is this minister or pastor taking his people in his church? Where is he leading them? To a knowledge of Christ and his Word, or to a social, feel good, let's align with all the other religions and be tolerant, etc., religion?
There will be your answer.
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Ham
The TWI version:
"If a man desireth anything, he desireth a good desire.
"An overseer in the One True Household must be shameless, in name only the husband of one wife, witchulant, sober as a priest during communion, of wretched behaviour, given to horsing-around-ipality, apt to teach spewth;
Not given to wino, but drambuie's alright, can't be a biker (can't afford luxuries, you know), greedy of lucre (make sure its washed first), an assaulter of patients..."
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mj412
this is exactly why I have problems with the personal prophecy movement that is so very popular today.
CES now spirit and Truth is INTO it heavy.
yet they teach that the prophecy can be wrong and folks need to have practice doing it to get it right... etc.
it doesnt make sense to me. I read in the above verses that if a person says the lord said it and He hath not they are false.
I understand the new testiment says we are to prophecy.. but this practice till we can be right maybe one day and hit or miss type of personal prophecy going around just feels and sounds wrong to me.
why would God tell somone something about another from HIM and leave room for error in light of the above verse?
I actualy think it lays a foundation for people worship I mean if ya come up with a real wing dinger and it please the people your in like flynn with the group.
so many times what the lord sent the prophets to say caused them to be killed by the people and shuned and not listened to it was sledom good news for the children.. that is why they often had a hard time obeying God in the doing of it.
no one wants to be the bad messenger. YET the bible reads that is when indeed He sent prophets to the people when they were not hearing what He had to say. why would a person not listen? because they do NOT want to hear what is being said of course.
this feel good I like you and look what I think God (maybe) told me to tell ya general happy go lucky you that loves us all together now personal prophecy stuff just doesnt make any darn sense to me in the scope of the bible.
care to comment or explain how it does to you?
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rascal
Wow, thankyou for that information belle.....
Can anyone explain why wierwille`s behavior that was condemned in the priests and labled them as false prophets .... does not brand him as a false prophet as well?
What did wierwille do differently that would excuse him from this catagory?
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rascal
Sunises, thankyou, that makes so much sense.
I have felt for a long time that God simply couldn`t have condoned what happened to so many in twi simply because his word was being spoken :-(
I have deep feelings of betrayal to God that would call us to be there ... some to enjoy the bennies, some only to be hurt, used and in some cases utterly destroyed....all acceptable so long as we could aquire a general working knowledge of him:-(
The idea that God called us to be preyed upon in twi ....makes me want to hate him....
If instead, we can place twi/vp in the false prophet catagory working for Satan with a goal of drawing saints away from God...to steal, kill and destroy......it absolves God/christianity of the crimes committed in that name.
My next question, if you have the time to answere it, would be.........
Having decided that vpw might have been working for darkness....Are we under any compunction to forgive, or give him any of the respect or love that we would normally deem to be due a fellow human/ fallen christian?
Is there any reason that we should trust the doctrines taught in twi, considering that they may have been used to draw people away from God....to hurt people, to manipulate, to justify cruelty?
Is it all right to hate this man and his ministry?
Can we despise him like jesus did the pharacies and money changers?
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skyrider
Yeah.....I've strongly considered this as well.
Add to that........the early works in California and New York and North Carolina and how veepee engrafted these works as his own, running off the Christ-led leaders of that time, the marketing of pfal classes and hiding behind the scenes while wow ambassadors and others fronted the classes and ministered to the good-hearted people, the inner-circle corps program and raising up leaders two-fold the men of hell, the seduction/abusing/raping of corps women to fulfill his lusts, the unbridled adulation to the MOG - father of the word (ugh), and a death that was untimely wherein he "never finished his course" nor saw healing from the One True God.
Vpw died and cgeer was at his side. There was immediate cover-up and lies to perpetuate his martyrdom. To this day, twi continues to revere their "founder of darkness" and hide their millions unbeknownst to their followers. No accountability spiritually or financially.
Thanks Sunesis.
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Belle
Sunesis, that is an excellent post! Thank you so much!
I'll ditto what Skyrider said, vee pee definitely fits the characteristics of the devils we were taught about in DTA and the AC and the AC Special.
We were taught to manipulate God, weren't we? "If you do this then God HAS to keep His word and do that for you". We were telling God what to do all the time and Christ was nowhere around.
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rascal
Belle, I think therein lies the reason that I didn`t see very good results to my prayers while in twi.
It wasn`t untill I QUIT telling God what to do via claiming those principles, that I began to see a changes in my life .... Now days, it seems as if the blessings and joys precede my ability to even ask.
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Belle
Yeppers! How arrogant we were.
:o-->
Ya know, before I got divorced I prayed with my ex one time in particular that I remember and I threw in "if it's your will"....OMG, you'd have thought I committed blasphemy or something! It ended up in this huge fight about me no longer telling God what to do for me since I figured he knows what's best for my life. I just wish I'd have listened to him sooner.....
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Allan
I don't think I ever remember VPW referred to as a 'prophet' for starters, but rather an apostle and teacher.
Tricked by Satan, yes, one of satans' seed men..? get real!! why would satan allow so MANY to get born again, saved by way of VPWs' ministry and don't try to excuse it, MANY did, including myself and I am still very thankful I didn't get born-again in one of these fri**in 'fruitcake' other instituitions !!
Be honest and give (some)credit where credit is due, peace dudes, Allan.
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rascal
That is what we are attempting to do here allan....really.
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Allan
Really ???
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Ham
"Unfortunately", I think folks are finding a lot of credit that WAS given to vic, certainly was not "due".
He claimed to have da ministry.. but who did I hear Romans 10:9 from? Not vic.
He claimed to have a healing ministry, but I NEVER saw one, stinking, isolated instance of him healing anybody..
Even the way he instructed us to run communion. "The second greatest method of healing".
Sorry, zippo. Not a one.
"The greatest healing is observed when the Word is taught"
Must have been the wrong word. Sorry, not a one there either.. "but I feel so much BETTER"..
So subjective.
People may have felt excited about it, said they were "blessed"- but I have seen people just as excited with ice put down their pants..
I dunno. You tell me- I'm still trying to figure all this stuff out..
Only thing I can think- if he had a healing ministry, it was buried twenty years before I met the man..
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