Actually it was in the '70s. You're right there is a great advancement in the field. And for the most part, people in the psychiatric field do a fantastic job. I just question, that some people are diagnosed with a problem when they don't have any. I hope to put up one of the greatest self-help sites I feel exists on the internet. If you can't find something there, there are thousands of links that will take you where you need to go.
Abigail, I really want to apologize. I think it was a misunderstanding, but I was wrong, too. Sometimes I should communicate my ideas better.
When I was in the field, there were really no text book cases that could be narrowed down. The DSM(Diagnostic Statistics Manual...or something like that) was like a psychiatric bible that had names and symptoms. Most people may exhibit one symptom from one 'label' and a couple of others from another. Schizophrenia was like a wide range of symptoms that had hallucinogenic properties in it. Seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling something that wasn't there. Not talking about the issue at hand, but DSM-1 declared that homosexuality was a mental illness. DSM-2 declared that this field needed more study. Don't know what 3 said, but I'm sure if there is a 4 or beyond it was completely removed.
I was once book smart. You know what I found? That I was street stupid, and had no survival skills whatsoever. Perhaps that was when TWI came in.
As I matured, I began to see things that books don't tell you about life. If I were to say that once while washing my face outdoors over a bucket of water, a small bluebird landed on the tip of my cupped hands, took a drink and zipped out. No book on birds will ever tell you this. And there is a pattern to life with that.
About parents, perhaps I was making a point that unless your(meaning anyone) parents were actually abusers, they did the best they could with what they had. I remember going to a friend's house who had rooms full of toys, and all I had were just a few. I sort of resented it, but when you deal with your own money, reality sets in.
As parents we can only do what we think is best, and since we don't come with a how-to owners manual we do what we can and pray for the best. Do not confuse corporal punishment with actual beatings. Shaking, slapping across the face, punching are pretty extreme as far as I'm concerned. Slapping a hand or butt, will get the message across. But to each their own.
Bipolar, yes, thank-you. The weird thing about the symptoms in my day is that people who were diagnosed as manic-depressive, were either manic-depressive manic, or manic-depressive depressive. If the person 'moped'(for lack of a better word!) they were more on the depressive side. On the other hand if they had energy and couldn't shut-up then they were manic.
So yeah I am confused! Again sorry!
PS some of the things you quoted were said to Safari
Apology accepted and returned. Generally you will find me to be very polite, even when I disagree. BUT if I feel someone has come after me as a person, instead of simply disagreeing on a point, I tend to let them have it with both barrels. I spent too many years allowing people walk all over me, now I have no tolerance for it. :)-->
"The DSM(Diagnostic Statistics Manual...or something like that) "
Yeah, I am familiar with these manuals. My mom was a student of psychology when I was in middle school and high school - I used to read her textbooks, I was such a nerd. lol
I have also read parts of them in recent months and years as we continue to work with my son so I am very aware of all the overlaps and how confusing and frustrating it can be to pinpoint anything.
"I was once book smart. You know what I found? That I was street stupid, and had no survival skills whatsoever."
Despite how I spent my teen years, I spent my 20s becoming all too street smart. I think somewhere there is a healthy balance between the two - God grant any of us ever find it.
"About parents, perhaps I was making a point that unless your(meaning anyone) parents were actually abusers, they did the best they could with what they had. "
I agree. But think about how much more parents can have with so much information at their fingertips. Is all of the information good? nope. Will all of the good information work for your child? Nope. But I guess I am an optimist and I think most people are smart enough to sort out for themselves what will and will not work for their family. So my point was simply that the more accessable we can make this information, the better.
" Do not confuse corporal punishment with actual beatings. Shaking, slapping across the face, punching are pretty extreme as far as I'm concerned. Slapping a hand or butt, will get the message across. But to each their own."
And again, I agree. I too have been known to smack a hand or swat a butt when I believed the situation called for it - especially with younger children who truly are much harder to "reason with". But I also think kids reach an age where that is no longer appropriate and so alternatives need to be available. Smacking the behind of a two year old is not out of line. smacking the behind of an 8 or 9 year old may stop a particular behavior. But it may also instill a great deal of shame, humiliation and anger without imparting the information the child actually needs.
"The weird thing about the symptoms in my day is that people who were diagnosed as manic-depressive, were either manic-depressive manic, or manic-depressive depressive. If the person 'moped'(for lack of a better word!) they were more on the depressive side. On the other hand if they had energy and couldn't shut-up then they were manic. "
This is still true today - they call it bipolar with predominant depression or predominant mania.
"PS some of the things you quoted were said to Safari"
I knew that but wanted to respond. Particularly because I felt that some of those comments were to her, but in response to the disagreement between you and I. Safari is a wonderful woman and terrific mom, btw. :)-->
I've very sorry for hurting you with my comments... please forgive me.
I didn't say I didn't like you, I just wasn't sure if I did or not... you were sounding somewhat hard & crusty :(--> and I will fight for a friend, when that friend is right.
And... the truth doesn't hurt, only lies & negatives do...
You certainly are welcome to come over for dinner, or maybe a glass of wine or beer & a few card games with the friends...
Was I in the way...alright, point taken... yes, for years I was an idiot and treated people badly because of lies that I believed.
Could we please call off the war of the words... I'm not really a stickler for most things... (the nose in others business was a little harsh don't you think...my friends are my business, and speaking up was something that was surpressed for years in TWI~ I am glad to now have freedom~ Besides, this is a Public Forum... Private topics can be started with someone so others won't butt in)
i'm kind of glad the last two pages aren't about parents killing their children. i didn't come to this thread because i didn't want to get bummed.
i've been thinking about some of this stuff. when we were growing up in the mid-50's to early 70's (all nine of us !!!!).... well back up. my mom had 9 children in 10 years because the pope and my father didn't give one **** about her. he beat the living hell out of her and couldn't hold a job (my father, not the pope)....
i thank god for food stamps and welfare. we kids probably would not have been able to stay together otherwise, which would have done, god only knows what, to my mom and to us.
none of us have been on welfare (since we were kids). not saying it's bad or good, abused or not abused. just saying it.
i'm the only one who joined a cult, well except for the other ones in the roman thing ;)-->
what else ? ab, i really need those tapes on love and logic. i will pt you my address.
i don't understand why people are so extreme in their thinking. same deal with that poor girl in florida thread. raising a kid is the greatest pleasure and responsibility in life and it absolutely sucks. ha !!!!!!!
as far as the psych field and medication, etc., oh man... never mind
but as a person and a mom, i'll take all the help i can get
As far as me, hell yeah my parents screwed me up. I got hit with everything from wooden spoons to brooms. Then at Catholic school I got the strap. Did it hurt? Sure, but since hind sight is 20/20 I think I'm a better person for it. My kid? Although I never touched or abused her she still thinks I screwed up her life. In my defence she lives with her mother, from an ugly divorce. So, yeah I'm asscrewed up as anyone else.
Signals,
Hello
I am trying to understand the above statement I quoted from you.
Are you saying that:
You are a better person because of the abuse you experienced?
or
that:
You are a better person that you do not continue the abuse you experienced?
Shellon that is a very sad, but eye opening article.
I have a relative that had six children, all about 18 months apart. She married at the young age of 17... Her husband had an affair with the baby-sitter, resulting in a pregnancy. The baby-sitter's Father said he would KILL this man if he didn't marry his daugher...
So...her husband divorced her, married the baby-sitter, and left her with six children...all still fairly young. (ranging maybe from 11 to 4)
This woman became violent...she couldn't stand to even look at her children~ they reminded her of that horrible man that LEFT her in this horrific situation.
She physically hurt them, neglected them, yelled most of the time, threw things, broke things, and a few of them have permanent scars on their bodies...
She went on Welfare, worked and made sure there was some food in the house for them to figure out what to do with...
They were left alone most of the time, and the oldest took care of everyone. They begged & stole...got involved in the wrong crowds some of them... grew up basicly without any parents.
She didn't kill them, but maybe would have liked to...
Today the Dad is dead...died of cancer in his early 50's... the Mom is lonley, trying to make up for her years of cruelty... her children are all screwed up... Adult drug users... running from the law... mistreating their own wives & children... can't hold on to money, and some can't keep a job...
The world is waxing worse & worse... it's hard to imagine.
i don't want to read the article (sounds like it might be heartbreaking)
just want to talk about myself ;)-->
all 9 of us have college degrees (paid for by grants and loans) and 3 have their masters
we owe all of this to our mom. even though she was told daily she was a no good stupid ugly slut and was hated etc. etc. etc., she found it somewhere within herself to give us some self esteem and a reason to go on and reach for hope.... and love and support each other
she is a wonderful intelligent funny darling lady but due to her upbrining and marrying (pregnant) as a kid, she just didn't have the cards stacked for her
i hope god finds a special place for her in heaven i really do. i would wait on her for eternity
as far as whoever is a better person for the strap or whatever, i don't understand
I've been thinking about your post. My best friend from high school had 8 siblings. There were 5 different fathers to these 9 children. Mom "raised" them all on welfare. The kids were all placed in foster homes for about a year during her last marriage and finally got to go home when that marriage ended.
Of those 9 children, only 1 lives on government income and she has cerebral palsy.
Makes you wonder exactly how much truth there is to the concept that welfare breeds welfare and how much of it is exaggeration.
In either case I think part of what makes this country so wonderful is that it is possible to work your way out of poverty, regardless of whether your were born into, faced unforseen cirmcumstances, or simply made poor choices at some point in your life.
Part of what makes it possible to overcome poverty in this country are the very same government programs so many people get ****** off about. What a shame it would be to lose those programs, making it so much more difficult for people to work their way out of poverty.
Your article is quite sad. I noticed it was referring to Houston and although I don't know of any evidence to substantiate this, I have to think the air people have to breathe there affects their mental state. The air is heavy with petrochemicals and heavy metal poisons from all the refineries and that HAS to be a factor. I lived there for a while and joined up with TWI there...that in and of itself says something.
I'm not an environmentalist by anyones standards, but breathing poisonous air like in the Houston area has to have some effects on things like that.
I’m going to weigh in on a couple of things here. I worked in a maximum-security prison for women for a number of years. I was a member of the “goon squad” and I was responsible for removing violent inmates from their cells when they wouldn’t want to come out. I was so good with the worst cases that I was regularly assigned to the highest level of lock down.
Keep one thing in mind; I didn’t work in the clinical side of the system. I had clinical training in so far that I was trained to decelerate a situation without having to get physical. I regularly was able to talk an inmate into my handcuffs without having to resort to physical force, a desirable outcome if for nothing else than to avoid the paperwork associated with a use of force situation.
I regularly worked with well over fifty women who had either killed their own children or someone else’s. I never met one that I didn’t think was just plain evil. I agree that many of them had psychological problems, before and after the crime. I knew plenty of inmates who had psychological problems and didn’t show the same tendencies as those who’d killed children. We got to the point where we knew who the many of the child murderers were when they would come into the pod, before we would ever learn their crimes.
As I said, I am not a therapist and I have no training to diagnose a disorder. What I have seen, however, are inmates who have a different personality for every situation. The psyche doctor would come in and the inmate would do a little dog and pony show and the doctor would prescribe some anti depressants and the minute the shrink leaves the inmate is back to her old warm and fuzzy self. The psyche students who would intern in the prisons were the worst. They would get played every time an inmate visited them.
In short this is a problem that has gone on for a very long time and there is a surprising number of incidents of women attacking their own children. The specific murders have very unique characteristics that you rarely find in the male populations. Not to say men don’t commit these crimes, there are plenty of men who’ve done horrible things to children. It’s just that the characteristics of what these women do are so very specific. I don’t even want to use the word motive, there rarely is one. These women just snap, drowning seems to be a big way they do it. Many cases are drowning. I had at least ten different women who’d drowned their children. One who lined up her kids in the bathroom and drowned all five of them, one after another. She had a terrible personality and could provoke an officer to rage in a matter of minutes. She even hit my nerve one day and I wanted to open the door and strangle her.
We had an elderly woman who was the sweetest thing you’ve ever met. They sold her knitting in the entrance building. She'd drowned her grandchild trying to baptize him when her daughter refused to have him baptized. Once a year on the anniversary of her grandson’s death she would flip out and we’d have to confine her and tie her down because she was so violent, a real life Dr Jeckle and Mrs. Hyde.
We had a woman who killed her boyfriend’s three-year-old daughter because she was jealous of his affection for the girl. She cooked the child and fed her to him for dinner one night. He later went nuts and killed himself. I listened to five different voices, three of them male voices, come out of her cell one night at about two in the morning, and she was in there alone. Almost every case was like these, no logic and no reason, little in the way of motive. These women are just plain mean.
The point of all of this is I wonder why we find it so necessary to define and find the reasons for these actions. I am more convinced now than ever that there is evil in this world and there is no other way to define these things. I realize we want to avoid these crimes whenever possible. You would be hard pressed to find someone more determined to stop crime from occurred than me. Having worked in the “industry” I am acutely aware of what violent crime does to a society. It is perpetuated from parent to child. I just don’t think clinical studies have accomplished much. Particularly when there is no category for simple evil.
From these experiences I’ve also learned to accept my own failings as a father. If I yell at my kids or make mistakes those are things I work to improve in but those things aren’t the worst things I could do to them. If I love my children, no matter what they do, no matter how mad they make me if I still love them I won’t screw up that bad. The love I have for them will keep me in check and give me that extra little bit of patience I need to NOT pound my son’s rear end into the next county when he almost broke his sisters leg.
I know that loving them is 95% of the battle. The other mistakes will always fall into the last 5% as long as we love them. If the kids grow up and know they were loved they will forgive the mistakes. Evil cannot love. That’s the real common denominator in all of these crimes, a lack of love for the victims.
Women tend to get depressed when they are angry. and the feeling of hopelessness I think most can understand.
I have little hope I can succeed at stopping smoking cigerettes, so I do not try as much as I would another endevour I feel differently about.
A person raised in poverty or abuse or both learns Life in itself is hopeless. so the fact life is so out of control so without any means or their ability to change, the taking of another life becomes simple.
In some of these murders the parents thinks he/she is actualy saving the children from life itself a life that has beat them down to the point they know no way out of the pain.
for some it is not far removed to kill or to give them away. I do think they love them sometimes they just do not know how to live within the absolute hopelessness of life. Like suicide a way to escape and make others pay for the pain you feel.
Evil maybe some but not all, I think hopeless is what many feel.
Man dizzydog... your job sounds horribly depressing~ and the one about the 'dinner'... I've never heard of anything so sick in my life... my stomach hurts
I appreciate and respect your point, I can only agree with it in a very limited amount. It’s easier to accept the behavior of people like this if we try to find some social or economic impetus for their actions because this puts this behavior in a category that we might be able to find some way of changing. We can’t change the evil nature of a murderer because that nature doesn’t manifest itself until it’s too late. Indeed the nature may have developed over time from a number of external influences, but make no mistake about it once a person commits an act like this it goes beyond hopelessness or depression or any other psychological disorder, unless the person is an outright paranoid schizophrenic, and even then…
I can count on one hand the number of murderers I knew who might have fallen into such a hopeless category. Once again we don’t want to call murder what it is, particularly when it comes to children. It’s heinous and there’s no other way to describe it. Hopelessness may be a part of the overall condition of a person such as this but hopelessness alone never drove anyone to murder his or her own children, at least in the murderers I’ve known.
I’ve had more experience in these things than I usually like to admit. I’ve felt the hopelessness you mentioned. I worked third shift for nearly two years. In the middle of the night I sat alone in a room with 90 inmates sleeping around me and felt an oppression the likes of which few people have any idea. I know the hopelessness you describe. To murder requires an aggression and violence that goes beyond anything most people have ever seen, even with the movies and television being as real life as they are. I had to restrain an inmate who trying to kill another inmate once. The aggression required to take someone’s life, particularly when they kill with their hands, is remarkable. I can only imagine, reluctantly, what must go through a persons mind when they get to the point of killing a child.
Granted, my view may be a little skewed here. I’m just more convinced than ever that some things in life are black and white. There’s no other way to explain these things. My time as a correction officer had a profound effect on me and I have a hard time viewing the world and others the same way I used to. They say the prison staff does time as well as the residents, I think there is some truth to that.
Because if we understand what it is what it may mean to a person we have to "get it" and it does change our perspective on what people may mean to us as a whole and what they are capable of.
Ever hear people who commint crimes justify it?
they are serious. they really think they had a darn good reason . the only problem is proving it to everyone eles where they are coming from.
These type of behaviour, Unless it is a crime of passion, can set in a person mind in a quick flash . a reaction a a child can be killed happens with shaken baby syndrome , tired frustrated unable to deal with the stress of a screaming baby and boom it is done. or it can be like a simmering pot of hopelessness that just breeds so much depresion and sadness that a death wouldnt matter that much. I watched a show on Meth users woman who had killed easy to get the drug just a few weeks into the addiction, when asked how they could change so much and allow nothing to matter but the drug they said it fries the brain that much that quickly causing permenant brain damage and they can not think clearly and are indeed so damaged physicly they do not understand what they are doing. not just the high of the drug actual brain cells turning into soup allowing behaivors and action they no longer understand to be wrong.
they have no rehab for meth users, the damage is done and it is permanent. they may no longer do the drug but the type of melting of the brain this drug does so fast , and so horrid leaves the person unable to ever function within "normal" ranges again.
the show said a very serious alcoholic would have to drink for thirty years to have the type of brain injury a meth user would get in just six WEEKS!!!!!
the show showed pictures of woman on meth just a few months after beginning their habit and they looked a hundred years older and they could barely sqeuk out a sentence that made sense because of the actual damage done to their brain.
it was a shocking story.
this drug is the most serious drug we have ever had because it hits hard and quick all of them said they were addicted after the first time, when asked why they said they were able to have such a good feeling it was fantastic and a complete memory loss to what reality is . till they came down and quickly wanted more.
they all said nothing was more important than feeling the drug , and by the time they realized it was no longer a choice the brain is fried to the point it would no longer matter if they stopped or not the damage, is permanent. so nothing eles matters now. including their own children.
that is hopelessness. I think you may run into these type of addicts in the prison system and they are capable of losing all and may apear quite evil and very aggressive, it is permanent brain damage due to the drugs they used dizzydog. Im not giving them an excuse the report states clearly they can not be rehabilitated due to the way this drug attacks the brain and does serious damage, again permanent damage long after the use may stop. it can not get well it turns the brain into soup very fast.
the report predict our system will see more criminals female criminalsof this sort increase in number. the ease of accessibility and cheap price is driving meth to be the # 1 drug abused in America.
I cant explain it very well , but the way they describe the effects of the drug is NOTHING enters your mind when your high, reality removes itself,(along with your brain cells to think and reason and be "human") and nothing matters. they also say they have no memory when they are high, and the brain damage alows them to not remember how they are living or what they are doing to live in such a state.. hence a quick addiction and a quick sense of total hopelessness. If a woman killed her child when high she would never remember it . and if she was coming down the force to feed the addiction is so strong they said over and over nothing eles mattered NOTHING. they do NOT feel remorse because of the damage done to their ability to think and reason.
You do NOT hear them try to explain what they did like many criminals .. they do not even remember it or think about it because thye can no longer think in terms of human thoughts as we would normaly. they are aggressive because their brain is damaged to that pointit no longer is able to function. It isnt a behaviour to begin with ,to be UNLEARNED , or rehab it is a very serious blight we have in the prison system today. the best the systems hopes for is to medicate them enough to keep them under control.
wow MJ that is some fascinating facts - I just read your whole post to my 15 year old and her friend and let them know in no uncertain terms that they better never touch that stuff.
I heard also in a 10-week Citizen's Police Seminar that you never again get as high on cocaine than the first timeyou do it. That is why cocaine addicts, do more and more. They keep trying to relive and achieve that very first highagain and it never happens, and they just keep trying over and over.
I’m not sure what your resistance to my posts is other than perhaps you don’t like me having called these offenders evil. I also don’t know what your experience is in these situations. I’m going to give you the benefit of a doubt and believe you’ve had as much exposure to these situations and people as I have. As such you will probably understand my reticence to focus on the unique and isolated situations when defining the majority of what I have seen. Being a Christian I also know that forgiveness is available even for these but I won’t refrain from calling the darkness, dark.
All of the women I previously wrote about were found to be in their right minds at the time of the crime. I know this from the court documents I saw. I can name case after case that doesn’t fall into the category you present. Not every crime that’s committed is the result of drugs or some other circumstance. Just as not every crime falls into the categories I’ve detailed.
The crimes are as varied as the people who committed them. Many (most) violent crimes are committed by people who know exactly what they are doing. The cases I was referring to were women who did terrible, selfish and yes, evil, things to their children – FOR NO GOOD REASON. And unfortunately there are far too many of these cases.
I know the women of whom you speak and they are to be most pitied. I had a woman who did just what you described to her newborn. I don’t remember writing about these cases. Here’s an example. We had a woman in the reception center, locked up on drug charges. Short sentence, 9-12 months for possession. The family smuggled a small bag of heroin WITH A HYPODERMIC NEEDLE into the visitors hall in her baby's diaper, one of the few places not searched at that time. She injected herself that evening and had a bad trip; she completely flipped out. She stripped down to her panties, weaved her hair tight to her head, greased herself from head to toe with baby oil and was ready to fight. Believe me this is not something out of a “B” grade women’s prison movie.
It was a bad situation. It took three of us to restrain her between the oil and the drugs. Pepper spray did nothing. Not to mention she was swinging the needle around like she was Luke Skywalker, no joke that's who she thought she was. That none of us got stuck is fortunate. She spent the remainder of her time in isolation for assaulting an officer, me. I had nothing but pity for her and contempt for her family for using the baby the way they did. They lost custody of the child in part because of my testimony. She did get out of prison and 6 weeks later they found her floating face down in a pond. Presumably killed by her drug supplier (pimp). The whole situation is “evil” by its very nature. Was she a victim in this? Absolutely, but that doesn’t change the definition of what’s going on.
We had a pregnant woman in prison. She told us she would kill the child once it delivered, to this day I don't know why. When she went into labor I had to restrain her to keep her from doing harm to the child. The squad came and two officers had to travel with the inmate to keep her from doing what she'd threatened. I still have the letter of commendation someplace. She wasn't on drugs when she made the threat or when she went into labor. I know all the excuses, all the hopelessness, I've heard it all.
I worked special duty supervising final visits for a while. Do you know what that is? The state takes charge of a child and allows the child to have a final visit with her mother. They don't even allow the child to bring a gift to her mother. Her presence is the only thing they allow. Once the visit is over that's the last time the two see each other, perhaps ever. Hopeless? The word has a new meaning when you witness this.
I could go on and on, but what’s the point? The statistics you site are witnessed and dealt with every day by someone like me. As long as we as a society are not willing to confront these things for what they are then we will always be addressing them from a weakened position. Evil is not a dark figure in a helmet on the movie screen. It’s a part of man’s nature, drugs and other circumstances may serve as catalysts for the lower parts of our nature but make no mistake; plenty of people have the propensity to do horrific things for no other reason than they can.
As long as we as a society are not willing to confront these things for what they are then we will always be addressing them from a weakened position. Evil is not a dark figure in a helmet on the movie screen. It’s a part of man’s nature, drugs and other circumstances may serve as catalysts for the lower parts of our nature but make no mistake; plenty of people have the propensity to do horrific things for no other reason than they can.
Nothing ever written or verbalized could state it more accurately or as well.
I happen to believe in God and inthe mankind he made to worship Him in truth and spirit. I can also write pages on hurt and evil. but I can write a lifetime about the goodness and love I have seen and lived within the same mankind.
It is each choice on how to look at what people have in one another, as for me, Jesus christ asks me to love one another and it is very easily done. I do not have the ability to think mankind is evil any more than I think my own self is evil.
do I think we are capable of evil ?
yes in the same voice yet much much LOUDER and stronger WE can Love and do good.
Your response shows a clear lack of understanding of what God thinks of mans basic nature. We didn't read much of Romans 1-3 in The Way but its still in the bible and clear regarding Gods opinion of the nature of man, without Christ. Jesus Christ himself used analogies of the evil nature of man; Luke 11:13. He sent his son Jesus Christ because we weren't good, we had to have a savior. What you call good the bible calls enemies of God; Romans 5:10.
I pray you never encounter some of the people who I’ve been writing about.
It matters not to me whether a pedophile or parent who brutally murders a child is viewed as possessed, purely evil, sick, human, whatever. No matter what the label, they have proven they are unwilling or unable to control themselves sufficiently to be allowed to live freely in our society.
It would the the rare exception (if one even existed) when I would think such a person should be allowed a second chance at access to my children.
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Actually it was in the '70s. You're right there is a great advancement in the field. And for the most part, people in the psychiatric field do a fantastic job. I just question, that some people are diagnosed with a problem when they don't have any. I hope to put up one of the greatest self-help sites I feel exists on the internet. If you can't find something there, there are thousands of links that will take you where you need to go.
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Abigail, I really want to apologize. I think it was a misunderstanding, but I was wrong, too. Sometimes I should communicate my ideas better.
When I was in the field, there were really no text book cases that could be narrowed down. The DSM(Diagnostic Statistics Manual...or something like that) was like a psychiatric bible that had names and symptoms. Most people may exhibit one symptom from one 'label' and a couple of others from another. Schizophrenia was like a wide range of symptoms that had hallucinogenic properties in it. Seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling something that wasn't there. Not talking about the issue at hand, but DSM-1 declared that homosexuality was a mental illness. DSM-2 declared that this field needed more study. Don't know what 3 said, but I'm sure if there is a 4 or beyond it was completely removed.
I was once book smart. You know what I found? That I was street stupid, and had no survival skills whatsoever. Perhaps that was when TWI came in.
As I matured, I began to see things that books don't tell you about life. If I were to say that once while washing my face outdoors over a bucket of water, a small bluebird landed on the tip of my cupped hands, took a drink and zipped out. No book on birds will ever tell you this. And there is a pattern to life with that.
About parents, perhaps I was making a point that unless your(meaning anyone) parents were actually abusers, they did the best they could with what they had. I remember going to a friend's house who had rooms full of toys, and all I had were just a few. I sort of resented it, but when you deal with your own money, reality sets in.
As parents we can only do what we think is best, and since we don't come with a how-to owners manual we do what we can and pray for the best. Do not confuse corporal punishment with actual beatings. Shaking, slapping across the face, punching are pretty extreme as far as I'm concerned. Slapping a hand or butt, will get the message across. But to each their own.
Bipolar, yes, thank-you. The weird thing about the symptoms in my day is that people who were diagnosed as manic-depressive, were either manic-depressive manic, or manic-depressive depressive. If the person 'moped'(for lack of a better word!) they were more on the depressive side. On the other hand if they had energy and couldn't shut-up then they were manic.
So yeah I am confused! Again sorry!
PS some of the things you quoted were said to Safari
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Abigail
"Abigail, I really want to apologize. "
Apology accepted and returned. Generally you will find me to be very polite, even when I disagree. BUT if I feel someone has come after me as a person, instead of simply disagreeing on a point, I tend to let them have it with both barrels. I spent too many years allowing people walk all over me, now I have no tolerance for it.
:)-->
"The DSM(Diagnostic Statistics Manual...or something like that) "
Yeah, I am familiar with these manuals. My mom was a student of psychology when I was in middle school and high school - I used to read her textbooks, I was such a nerd. lol
I have also read parts of them in recent months and years as we continue to work with my son so I am very aware of all the overlaps and how confusing and frustrating it can be to pinpoint anything.
"I was once book smart. You know what I found? That I was street stupid, and had no survival skills whatsoever."
Despite how I spent my teen years, I spent my 20s becoming all too street smart. I think somewhere there is a healthy balance between the two - God grant any of us ever find it.
"About parents, perhaps I was making a point that unless your(meaning anyone) parents were actually abusers, they did the best they could with what they had. "
I agree. But think about how much more parents can have with so much information at their fingertips. Is all of the information good? nope. Will all of the good information work for your child? Nope. But I guess I am an optimist and I think most people are smart enough to sort out for themselves what will and will not work for their family. So my point was simply that the more accessable we can make this information, the better.
" Do not confuse corporal punishment with actual beatings. Shaking, slapping across the face, punching are pretty extreme as far as I'm concerned. Slapping a hand or butt, will get the message across. But to each their own."
And again, I agree. I too have been known to smack a hand or swat a butt when I believed the situation called for it - especially with younger children who truly are much harder to "reason with". But I also think kids reach an age where that is no longer appropriate and so alternatives need to be available. Smacking the behind of a two year old is not out of line. smacking the behind of an 8 or 9 year old may stop a particular behavior. But it may also instill a great deal of shame, humiliation and anger without imparting the information the child actually needs.
"The weird thing about the symptoms in my day is that people who were diagnosed as manic-depressive, were either manic-depressive manic, or manic-depressive depressive. If the person 'moped'(for lack of a better word!) they were more on the depressive side. On the other hand if they had energy and couldn't shut-up then they were manic. "
This is still true today - they call it bipolar with predominant depression or predominant mania.
"PS some of the things you quoted were said to Safari"
I knew that but wanted to respond. Particularly because I felt that some of those comments were to her, but in response to the disagreement between you and I. Safari is a wonderful woman and terrific mom, btw.
:)-->
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SafariVista
((((Signals)))))
I've very sorry for hurting you with my comments... please forgive me.
I didn't say I didn't like you, I just wasn't sure if I did or not... you were sounding somewhat hard & crusty
:(--> and I will fight for a friend, when that friend is right.
And... the truth doesn't hurt, only lies & negatives do...
You certainly are welcome to come over for dinner, or maybe a glass of wine or beer & a few card games with the friends...
Was I in the way...alright, point taken... yes, for years I was an idiot and treated people badly because of lies that I believed.
Could we please call off the war of the words... I'm not really a stickler for most things... (the nose in others business was a little harsh don't you think...my friends are my business, and speaking up was something that was surpressed for years in TWI~ I am glad to now have freedom~ Besides, this is a Public Forum... Private topics can be started with someone so others won't butt in)
The invitation still stands~
-->
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excathedra
i'm kind of glad the last two pages aren't about parents killing their children. i didn't come to this thread because i didn't want to get bummed.
i've been thinking about some of this stuff. when we were growing up in the mid-50's to early 70's (all nine of us !!!!).... well back up. my mom had 9 children in 10 years because the pope and my father didn't give one **** about her. he beat the living hell out of her and couldn't hold a job (my father, not the pope)....
i thank god for food stamps and welfare. we kids probably would not have been able to stay together otherwise, which would have done, god only knows what, to my mom and to us.
none of us have been on welfare (since we were kids). not saying it's bad or good, abused or not abused. just saying it.
i'm the only one who joined a cult, well except for the other ones in the roman thing
;)-->
what else ? ab, i really need those tapes on love and logic. i will pt you my address.
i don't understand why people are so extreme in their thinking. same deal with that poor girl in florida thread. raising a kid is the greatest pleasure and responsibility in life and it absolutely sucks. ha !!!!!!!
as far as the psych field and medication, etc., oh man... never mind
but as a person and a mom, i'll take all the help i can get
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wingnut
I think I will just go take an aspirin, well maybe 3
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Signals,
Hello
I am trying to understand the above statement I quoted from you.
Are you saying that:
You are a better person because of the abuse you experienced?
or
that:
You are a better person that you do not continue the abuse you experienced?
Song
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SafariVista
Shellon that is a very sad, but eye opening article.
I have a relative that had six children, all about 18 months apart. She married at the young age of 17... Her husband had an affair with the baby-sitter, resulting in a pregnancy. The baby-sitter's Father said he would KILL this man if he didn't marry his daugher...
So...her husband divorced her, married the baby-sitter, and left her with six children...all still fairly young. (ranging maybe from 11 to 4)
This woman became violent...she couldn't stand to even look at her children~ they reminded her of that horrible man that LEFT her in this horrific situation.
She physically hurt them, neglected them, yelled most of the time, threw things, broke things, and a few of them have permanent scars on their bodies...
She went on Welfare, worked and made sure there was some food in the house for them to figure out what to do with...
They were left alone most of the time, and the oldest took care of everyone. They begged & stole...got involved in the wrong crowds some of them... grew up basicly without any parents.
She didn't kill them, but maybe would have liked to...
Today the Dad is dead...died of cancer in his early 50's... the Mom is lonley, trying to make up for her years of cruelty... her children are all screwed up... Adult drug users... running from the law... mistreating their own wives & children... can't hold on to money, and some can't keep a job...
The world is waxing worse & worse... it's hard to imagine.
I couldn't imagine being in her situation~
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excathedra
i don't want to read the article (sounds like it might be heartbreaking)
just want to talk about myself
;)-->
all 9 of us have college degrees (paid for by grants and loans) and 3 have their masters
we owe all of this to our mom. even though she was told daily she was a no good stupid ugly slut and was hated etc. etc. etc., she found it somewhere within herself to give us some self esteem and a reason to go on and reach for hope.... and love and support each other
she is a wonderful intelligent funny darling lady but due to her upbrining and marrying (pregnant) as a kid, she just didn't have the cards stacked for her
i hope god finds a special place for her in heaven i really do. i would wait on her for eternity
as far as whoever is a better person for the strap or whatever, i don't understand
thanks for letting me rant
it's a crazy world isn't it ?
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SafariVista
Another Wonderful Example of a Great Determined Mother...
Thanks for sharing about her excathedra!
And yes... it is a crazy world~
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Abigail
ExC,
I've been thinking about your post. My best friend from high school had 8 siblings. There were 5 different fathers to these 9 children. Mom "raised" them all on welfare. The kids were all placed in foster homes for about a year during her last marriage and finally got to go home when that marriage ended.
Of those 9 children, only 1 lives on government income and she has cerebral palsy.
Makes you wonder exactly how much truth there is to the concept that welfare breeds welfare and how much of it is exaggeration.
In either case I think part of what makes this country so wonderful is that it is possible to work your way out of poverty, regardless of whether your were born into, faced unforseen cirmcumstances, or simply made poor choices at some point in your life.
Part of what makes it possible to overcome poverty in this country are the very same government programs so many people get ****** off about. What a shame it would be to lose those programs, making it so much more difficult for people to work their way out of poverty.
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Ron G.
Shellon...
Your article is quite sad. I noticed it was referring to Houston and although I don't know of any evidence to substantiate this, I have to think the air people have to breathe there affects their mental state. The air is heavy with petrochemicals and heavy metal poisons from all the refineries and that HAS to be a factor. I lived there for a while and joined up with TWI there...that in and of itself says something.
I'm not an environmentalist by anyones standards, but breathing poisonous air like in the Houston area has to have some effects on things like that.
Just some mental rumination on my part.
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dizzydog
I’m going to weigh in on a couple of things here. I worked in a maximum-security prison for women for a number of years. I was a member of the “goon squad” and I was responsible for removing violent inmates from their cells when they wouldn’t want to come out. I was so good with the worst cases that I was regularly assigned to the highest level of lock down.
Keep one thing in mind; I didn’t work in the clinical side of the system. I had clinical training in so far that I was trained to decelerate a situation without having to get physical. I regularly was able to talk an inmate into my handcuffs without having to resort to physical force, a desirable outcome if for nothing else than to avoid the paperwork associated with a use of force situation.
I regularly worked with well over fifty women who had either killed their own children or someone else’s. I never met one that I didn’t think was just plain evil. I agree that many of them had psychological problems, before and after the crime. I knew plenty of inmates who had psychological problems and didn’t show the same tendencies as those who’d killed children. We got to the point where we knew who the many of the child murderers were when they would come into the pod, before we would ever learn their crimes.
As I said, I am not a therapist and I have no training to diagnose a disorder. What I have seen, however, are inmates who have a different personality for every situation. The psyche doctor would come in and the inmate would do a little dog and pony show and the doctor would prescribe some anti depressants and the minute the shrink leaves the inmate is back to her old warm and fuzzy self. The psyche students who would intern in the prisons were the worst. They would get played every time an inmate visited them.
In short this is a problem that has gone on for a very long time and there is a surprising number of incidents of women attacking their own children. The specific murders have very unique characteristics that you rarely find in the male populations. Not to say men don’t commit these crimes, there are plenty of men who’ve done horrible things to children. It’s just that the characteristics of what these women do are so very specific. I don’t even want to use the word motive, there rarely is one. These women just snap, drowning seems to be a big way they do it. Many cases are drowning. I had at least ten different women who’d drowned their children. One who lined up her kids in the bathroom and drowned all five of them, one after another. She had a terrible personality and could provoke an officer to rage in a matter of minutes. She even hit my nerve one day and I wanted to open the door and strangle her.
We had an elderly woman who was the sweetest thing you’ve ever met. They sold her knitting in the entrance building. She'd drowned her grandchild trying to baptize him when her daughter refused to have him baptized. Once a year on the anniversary of her grandson’s death she would flip out and we’d have to confine her and tie her down because she was so violent, a real life Dr Jeckle and Mrs. Hyde.
We had a woman who killed her boyfriend’s three-year-old daughter because she was jealous of his affection for the girl. She cooked the child and fed her to him for dinner one night. He later went nuts and killed himself. I listened to five different voices, three of them male voices, come out of her cell one night at about two in the morning, and she was in there alone. Almost every case was like these, no logic and no reason, little in the way of motive. These women are just plain mean.
The point of all of this is I wonder why we find it so necessary to define and find the reasons for these actions. I am more convinced now than ever that there is evil in this world and there is no other way to define these things. I realize we want to avoid these crimes whenever possible. You would be hard pressed to find someone more determined to stop crime from occurred than me. Having worked in the “industry” I am acutely aware of what violent crime does to a society. It is perpetuated from parent to child. I just don’t think clinical studies have accomplished much. Particularly when there is no category for simple evil.
From these experiences I’ve also learned to accept my own failings as a father. If I yell at my kids or make mistakes those are things I work to improve in but those things aren’t the worst things I could do to them. If I love my children, no matter what they do, no matter how mad they make me if I still love them I won’t screw up that bad. The love I have for them will keep me in check and give me that extra little bit of patience I need to NOT pound my son’s rear end into the next county when he almost broke his sisters leg.
I know that loving them is 95% of the battle. The other mistakes will always fall into the last 5% as long as we love them. If the kids grow up and know they were loved they will forgive the mistakes. Evil cannot love. That’s the real common denominator in all of these crimes, a lack of love for the victims.
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mj412
I think a key word is hopelessness.
Women tend to get depressed when they are angry. and the feeling of hopelessness I think most can understand.
I have little hope I can succeed at stopping smoking cigerettes, so I do not try as much as I would another endevour I feel differently about.
A person raised in poverty or abuse or both learns Life in itself is hopeless. so the fact life is so out of control so without any means or their ability to change, the taking of another life becomes simple.
In some of these murders the parents thinks he/she is actualy saving the children from life itself a life that has beat them down to the point they know no way out of the pain.
for some it is not far removed to kill or to give them away. I do think they love them sometimes they just do not know how to live within the absolute hopelessness of life. Like suicide a way to escape and make others pay for the pain you feel.
Evil maybe some but not all, I think hopeless is what many feel.
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SafariVista
Man dizzydog... your job sounds horribly depressing~ and the one about the 'dinner'... I've never heard of anything so sick in my life... my stomach hurts
God bless you and keep you safe
:)-->
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dizzydog
Hi MJ,
I appreciate and respect your point, I can only agree with it in a very limited amount. It’s easier to accept the behavior of people like this if we try to find some social or economic impetus for their actions because this puts this behavior in a category that we might be able to find some way of changing. We can’t change the evil nature of a murderer because that nature doesn’t manifest itself until it’s too late. Indeed the nature may have developed over time from a number of external influences, but make no mistake about it once a person commits an act like this it goes beyond hopelessness or depression or any other psychological disorder, unless the person is an outright paranoid schizophrenic, and even then…
I can count on one hand the number of murderers I knew who might have fallen into such a hopeless category. Once again we don’t want to call murder what it is, particularly when it comes to children. It’s heinous and there’s no other way to describe it. Hopelessness may be a part of the overall condition of a person such as this but hopelessness alone never drove anyone to murder his or her own children, at least in the murderers I’ve known.
I’ve had more experience in these things than I usually like to admit. I’ve felt the hopelessness you mentioned. I worked third shift for nearly two years. In the middle of the night I sat alone in a room with 90 inmates sleeping around me and felt an oppression the likes of which few people have any idea. I know the hopelessness you describe. To murder requires an aggression and violence that goes beyond anything most people have ever seen, even with the movies and television being as real life as they are. I had to restrain an inmate who trying to kill another inmate once. The aggression required to take someone’s life, particularly when they kill with their hands, is remarkable. I can only imagine, reluctantly, what must go through a persons mind when they get to the point of killing a child.
Granted, my view may be a little skewed here. I’m just more convinced than ever that some things in life are black and white. There’s no other way to explain these things. My time as a correction officer had a profound effect on me and I have a hard time viewing the world and others the same way I used to. They say the prison staff does time as well as the residents, I think there is some truth to that.
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mj412
I think it is hard to understand. hopelessness.
Because if we understand what it is what it may mean to a person we have to "get it" and it does change our perspective on what people may mean to us as a whole and what they are capable of.
Ever hear people who commint crimes justify it?
they are serious. they really think they had a darn good reason . the only problem is proving it to everyone eles where they are coming from.
These type of behaviour, Unless it is a crime of passion, can set in a person mind in a quick flash . a reaction a a child can be killed happens with shaken baby syndrome , tired frustrated unable to deal with the stress of a screaming baby and boom it is done. or it can be like a simmering pot of hopelessness that just breeds so much depresion and sadness that a death wouldnt matter that much. I watched a show on Meth users woman who had killed easy to get the drug just a few weeks into the addiction, when asked how they could change so much and allow nothing to matter but the drug they said it fries the brain that much that quickly causing permenant brain damage and they can not think clearly and are indeed so damaged physicly they do not understand what they are doing. not just the high of the drug actual brain cells turning into soup allowing behaivors and action they no longer understand to be wrong.
they have no rehab for meth users, the damage is done and it is permanent. they may no longer do the drug but the type of melting of the brain this drug does so fast , and so horrid leaves the person unable to ever function within "normal" ranges again.
the show said a very serious alcoholic would have to drink for thirty years to have the type of brain injury a meth user would get in just six WEEKS!!!!!
the show showed pictures of woman on meth just a few months after beginning their habit and they looked a hundred years older and they could barely sqeuk out a sentence that made sense because of the actual damage done to their brain.
it was a shocking story.
this drug is the most serious drug we have ever had because it hits hard and quick all of them said they were addicted after the first time, when asked why they said they were able to have such a good feeling it was fantastic and a complete memory loss to what reality is . till they came down and quickly wanted more.
they all said nothing was more important than feeling the drug , and by the time they realized it was no longer a choice the brain is fried to the point it would no longer matter if they stopped or not the damage, is permanent. so nothing eles matters now. including their own children.
that is hopelessness. I think you may run into these type of addicts in the prison system and they are capable of losing all and may apear quite evil and very aggressive, it is permanent brain damage due to the drugs they used dizzydog. Im not giving them an excuse the report states clearly they can not be rehabilitated due to the way this drug attacks the brain and does serious damage, again permanent damage long after the use may stop. it can not get well it turns the brain into soup very fast.
the report predict our system will see more criminals female criminalsof this sort increase in number. the ease of accessibility and cheap price is driving meth to be the # 1 drug abused in America.
I cant explain it very well , but the way they describe the effects of the drug is NOTHING enters your mind when your high, reality removes itself,(along with your brain cells to think and reason and be "human") and nothing matters. they also say they have no memory when they are high, and the brain damage alows them to not remember how they are living or what they are doing to live in such a state.. hence a quick addiction and a quick sense of total hopelessness. If a woman killed her child when high she would never remember it . and if she was coming down the force to feed the addiction is so strong they said over and over nothing eles mattered NOTHING. they do NOT feel remorse because of the damage done to their ability to think and reason.
You do NOT hear them try to explain what they did like many criminals .. they do not even remember it or think about it because thye can no longer think in terms of human thoughts as we would normaly. they are aggressive because their brain is damaged to that pointit no longer is able to function. It isnt a behaviour to begin with ,to be UNLEARNED , or rehab it is a very serious blight we have in the prison system today. the best the systems hopes for is to medicate them enough to keep them under control.
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outofdafog
wow MJ that is some fascinating facts - I just read your whole post to my 15 year old and her friend and let them know in no uncertain terms that they better never touch that stuff.
I heard also in a 10-week Citizen's Police Seminar that you never again get as high on cocaine than the first timeyou do it. That is why cocaine addicts, do more and more. They keep trying to relive and achieve that very first highagain and it never happens, and they just keep trying over and over.
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dizzydog
MJ,
I’m not sure what your resistance to my posts is other than perhaps you don’t like me having called these offenders evil. I also don’t know what your experience is in these situations. I’m going to give you the benefit of a doubt and believe you’ve had as much exposure to these situations and people as I have. As such you will probably understand my reticence to focus on the unique and isolated situations when defining the majority of what I have seen. Being a Christian I also know that forgiveness is available even for these but I won’t refrain from calling the darkness, dark.
All of the women I previously wrote about were found to be in their right minds at the time of the crime. I know this from the court documents I saw. I can name case after case that doesn’t fall into the category you present. Not every crime that’s committed is the result of drugs or some other circumstance. Just as not every crime falls into the categories I’ve detailed.
The crimes are as varied as the people who committed them. Many (most) violent crimes are committed by people who know exactly what they are doing. The cases I was referring to were women who did terrible, selfish and yes, evil, things to their children – FOR NO GOOD REASON. And unfortunately there are far too many of these cases.
I know the women of whom you speak and they are to be most pitied. I had a woman who did just what you described to her newborn. I don’t remember writing about these cases. Here’s an example. We had a woman in the reception center, locked up on drug charges. Short sentence, 9-12 months for possession. The family smuggled a small bag of heroin WITH A HYPODERMIC NEEDLE into the visitors hall in her baby's diaper, one of the few places not searched at that time. She injected herself that evening and had a bad trip; she completely flipped out. She stripped down to her panties, weaved her hair tight to her head, greased herself from head to toe with baby oil and was ready to fight. Believe me this is not something out of a “B” grade women’s prison movie.
It was a bad situation. It took three of us to restrain her between the oil and the drugs. Pepper spray did nothing. Not to mention she was swinging the needle around like she was Luke Skywalker, no joke that's who she thought she was. That none of us got stuck is fortunate. She spent the remainder of her time in isolation for assaulting an officer, me. I had nothing but pity for her and contempt for her family for using the baby the way they did. They lost custody of the child in part because of my testimony. She did get out of prison and 6 weeks later they found her floating face down in a pond. Presumably killed by her drug supplier (pimp). The whole situation is “evil” by its very nature. Was she a victim in this? Absolutely, but that doesn’t change the definition of what’s going on.
We had a pregnant woman in prison. She told us she would kill the child once it delivered, to this day I don't know why. When she went into labor I had to restrain her to keep her from doing harm to the child. The squad came and two officers had to travel with the inmate to keep her from doing what she'd threatened. I still have the letter of commendation someplace. She wasn't on drugs when she made the threat or when she went into labor. I know all the excuses, all the hopelessness, I've heard it all.
I worked special duty supervising final visits for a while. Do you know what that is? The state takes charge of a child and allows the child to have a final visit with her mother. They don't even allow the child to bring a gift to her mother. Her presence is the only thing they allow. Once the visit is over that's the last time the two see each other, perhaps ever. Hopeless? The word has a new meaning when you witness this.
I could go on and on, but what’s the point? The statistics you site are witnessed and dealt with every day by someone like me. As long as we as a society are not willing to confront these things for what they are then we will always be addressing them from a weakened position. Evil is not a dark figure in a helmet on the movie screen. It’s a part of man’s nature, drugs and other circumstances may serve as catalysts for the lower parts of our nature but make no mistake; plenty of people have the propensity to do horrific things for no other reason than they can.
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excathedra
too much above my head
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Shellon
Nothing ever written or verbalized could state it more accurately or as well.
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mj412
God said what He created was "good".
I happen to believe in God and inthe mankind he made to worship Him in truth and spirit. I can also write pages on hurt and evil. but I can write a lifetime about the goodness and love I have seen and lived within the same mankind.
It is each choice on how to look at what people have in one another, as for me, Jesus christ asks me to love one another and it is very easily done. I do not have the ability to think mankind is evil any more than I think my own self is evil.
do I think we are capable of evil ?
yes in the same voice yet much much LOUDER and stronger WE can Love and do good.
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dizzydog
MJ,
Your response shows a clear lack of understanding of what God thinks of mans basic nature. We didn't read much of Romans 1-3 in The Way but its still in the bible and clear regarding Gods opinion of the nature of man, without Christ. Jesus Christ himself used analogies of the evil nature of man; Luke 11:13. He sent his son Jesus Christ because we weren't good, we had to have a savior. What you call good the bible calls enemies of God; Romans 5:10.
I pray you never encounter some of the people who I’ve been writing about.
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Abigail
It matters not to me whether a pedophile or parent who brutally murders a child is viewed as possessed, purely evil, sick, human, whatever. No matter what the label, they have proven they are unwilling or unable to control themselves sufficiently to be allowed to live freely in our society.
It would the the rare exception (if one even existed) when I would think such a person should be allowed a second chance at access to my children.
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