There is, in my mind, no way to justify killing a child. However, as I say with child abuse, I don't condone it but on some level I can understand it.
Parents are under a tremendous amount of pressure these days, battling poverty, trying to work and raise a child alone, fighting with the school, etc. etc. There is little support for parents in this country, those of us who fight for our kids fight alone, without the benefit of partners, extended family, and community. When our kids misbehave we take all the blame.
In addition, many kids grow up without any concept of delayed gratification, responsibility, and sacrifice.
Add to that the increasing number of parents who are still babies themselves and the increasing number of people who are abusing drug and I have to say it is beyond tragic, but not suprising that these things happen.
I hate to say it, but this is actually most likely in decline. All violent crime has been in decline over the past decade or so, but on the other hand, the cable "entertainment" news stations like CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc. all sensationalize this stuff and pump it into our houses 24/7 if we let them.
There is no reason for someone in Texas (like me) to hear about a child murdered in Idaho, unless there's some chance that the murderer would have come down here. I agree that it's a horrible tragedy, but it's no more "news" here than the fact that a new restaurant opened there. I'd prefer that the news focus on things that actually affect everyone, and possibly even say some good news once in a while.
That will never happen though. The news is not about giving us useful information. It's about making us afraid of everything they can, working society up into a frenzy over celebrity and politician worship, spreading government propaganda, and most importantly, getting us to pay attention so we sit through their commercials.
Each incident is unique. When you have emotionally disturbed adults in charge of their young children, the adults can't deal with stress appropriately. They revert to a child's coping strategies, or even an animal's.
The current welfare system has made child-rearing a cottage industry for emotionally disturbed or immature girls. The gods of compassion, left wing politicians, don't care about the results, only the appearance of doing something, so the problems persist.
For every murder, there are hundreds or thousands of cases where severe physical abuse takes place, and there must be millions of cases where excessive and/or persistent (if not severe) abuse is used to control children.
There isn't a parent alive who hasn't gotten mad at their kids. Healthy parents learn to express their feelings without lashing out. They express their love through their anger, but with all necessary restraint. Unhealthy parents often just hurt their kids.
Most adults who do horrible things were children to whom horrible things were done. It doesn't excuse anything, adults can overrule their feelings and take the appropriate action, whether or not they feel like it, but it should motivate us to find a way to break the cycle as effectively as we can.
"Most adults who do horrible things were children to whom horrible things were done. It doesn't excuse anything, adults can overrule their feelings and take the appropriate action, whether or not they feel like it, but it should motivate us to find a way to break the cycle as effectively as we can."
Very well said. How about parenting classes? We are not born with an innate understanding of how to raise children. How about some sort of support system for when a parent really needs a break? Counseling for at risk parents and children?
Even the the problems will still exist - but perhaps we could at least reduce the numbers.
Parenting classes? Like, requiring a driver's license, or a dog license?
The ACLU be comin' after you.
Seriously, it presents a whole long list of problems. Proper parenting has many competing doctrines. There are still people who say "spare the rod and spoil the child."
I do think there could be parenting "information sessions" offered, where information might be dispensed in as neutral a manner as possible.
But most of that information is available now, and the ones who need it most are the least likely to want it.
I WOULD make it a requirement for receiving welfare. If you want the public to raise your kid, then the public gets to have a say in how you do it. Just my opinion.
If the Republicans were not so against sexual education and birth control, unwanted pregnancies would not occur in the huge numbers that happen today.
I do agree that welfare needs some major reform, but with the Republicans running this country right now, I don't see them doing anything to solve this problem. Instead, I guess keeping steriods out of baseball is more important than things like fighting child abuse, balancing the federal budget, improving our economy, fighting terrorism, or anything else.
"I do think there could be parenting "information sessions" offered, where information might be dispensed in as neutral a manner as possible."
There are programs that are fairly neutral and easy to tailor to your own specific value systems. "Love and Logic" is an excellent example of this.
"But most of that information is available now, and the ones who need it most are the least likely to want it."
There are also those who want it but can't find it or afford it. I think - offer the classes through a Community Mental Health program on a sliding scale fee basis. AND = if you have a kid who is continually in trouble with schools, truancy, etc. make the classes mandatory for the parents.
It's pretty much always been that way. Andrea Yates made headlines when she drowned all her children. Don't know if you remember that girl in one of the Carolinas who claimed a black man carjacked her and took her kids hostage. Oh how people felt sorry. Somehow from the beginning I felt she was lying, because not a hair was out of place and her mascara wasn't running when she was crying and sobbing(no tears).
Come to find out her current boyfriend wasn't crazy about kids, so she locked her 2 kids in the car and put a brick on the gas pedal so the car would drive into lake.
A few years back someone did a study of certain mothers who try to kill their kids. It's more common than you think. Back in the 70s a mother and her daughter were in a reastaurant, and because her daughter was acting up, she took her in the ladies' room and beat her to death. Within 100 miles of my area over the past 20 years there have been so many cases of mothers killing their syblings. It's on the increase, btw!
And these are just the cases of mothers. Then there are the fathers and both.
Sharon, your mom sounds wonderful! Bet she has some interesting stories to tell.
I couldn't agree with you more about welfare...there is no reason for most people to collect a check and not work for it. There are many things that could be required in order to get the help.
As far as Parents...Some people should not have children...I know of a few personally, and there is something wrong with their mind, they do not think soundly, and their children are living in danger.
Why are parents killing their children... Abigail makes some interesting points... parents don't have the freedom to parent...
I don't either... but do what needs to be done, or figure ways to make sure my children are held resposible for their actions. The message to them is clear & consistant! (although, they much rather hear how wonderful I think they are... and tend to do things that will bring on those types of comments)
Well said, Sharon! The trouble started with Dr. Spock(not to be confused with the pointy eared Mr) and peaked when Hillary said it takes a village to raise a child. Somehow certain people perceived that the world was recruited as their babysitters. No matter how onruly your kid is...reason with them rather than hitting and scarring them for life. No wonder parents tend to explode. But never fear, because what Spock started can now be treated with Riddelin! They are diagnosed with ADD or ADHD! Plus some counseling and there you go...
The more parents try to be less than their own parents, the worse things get. Scarring for life means that a lesson is learned and a moral instilled. Reasoning gives the advantage to the child, as he becomes smarter and more manipulative than the parent.
Then don't get me started on Welfare as that is only a check to breed. Them working? HA! They had a program where a couple of times a week people on welfare had to go do civil service work while being supervised. They claimed they were humiliated and felt like prisoners. Ironically they aren't humiliated getting that check for their kids from various fathers.
So Andrea claims PostPartum depression, and you know the whole psychiatric community is going to prove it, thus giving a new excuse to the masses. Someone goofed(ooops) with Susan and put her in main stream criminal population and she was almost beaten to death. Look for the book. The lady who killed her daughter in a restroom had gotten life. She was released a couple of years ago because she was a model inmate, good behavior, and Glenn Close took a liking to her. Her surviving daughter still claimed her mother was innocent. The restroom had blood all over the place!
I know all parents say that I will never raise my kids like my parents raised me. Then did our parents actually do a bad job?
I have to take issue with some of this. I think there are some very valid points made in the past few posts, but there is also some pretty wide blanket statements.
Sharon, your mom sounds pretty amazing. Unfortunately, many women would not come through such difficult circumstances so well. Why is that? A myrad of reasons, none of which means they wouldn't like to come through as well (although certainly there is a percentage who just don't give a ****).
"I know all parents say that I will never raise my kids like my parents raised me. Then did our parents actually do a bad job?"
Yes, mine did. My parents bounced back and forth between forgetting I exhisted at all and letting me run absolutely wild, to trying to control the very air I breathed. It was a very crazy way to grow up - never knowing what was expected and when the hammer was gonna fall.
As a parent myself now, I try to be more consistent and even keeled. However, I also find myself slipping into some of my parent's patters with my own kids. Situations come up that I don't know how to handle because no one ever handled them with me. So I have read many many books on parenting and am taking a parenting class now. I take those things I find useful and use them - the rest I toss.
"They are diagnosed with ADD or ADHD! Plus some counseling and there you go..."
Again I take issue with the implied notion that none of these disorders exist. Are normal children sometimes misdiagnosed by overzealous doctors, or over wrought parents and teachers, absolutely. BUT these disorders are real, and until you have raised a child with one of them you cannot even begin to understand what is involved in doing it and doing it well.
I am very thankful for the knowledge we have gained in the psychological field and sit on pins and needles as we continue to learn more, not only in psychology but neurology as well.
Now you can say I am a bad parent because I have one of these kids. Then why is it both of my kids are not this way? I've raised them very much alike - though certainly I have made mistakes with my older son that I have not made with my younger and likewise mistakes with my younger that my older son never had to live through.
"Scarring for life means that a lesson is learned and a moral instilled. Reasoning gives the advantage to the child, as he becomes smarter and more manipulative than the parent. "
This can be the case, but is not always so. Some times scarring for life results in the 'sins of the parents that are passed on down to the children" in the same way that NOT parenting a child can do. Likewise, reasoning can teachm a child to become more manipulative than the parent (interesting phrase - I prefer to teach my children, not manipulate them) but reason can also teach a child to think for themselves, when done properly.
"Then don't get me started on Welfare as that is only a check to breed. Them working? HA! "
Well this is one mom who had the misfortune of needing to 'use the system' for a time and didn't receive a check to breed. I have worked hard, continue to work hard, and I am no longer in need of the assistance. However, I am very thankful it was there for the two years I did.
Don't misunderstand - I get that there are women who use the check to breed, I've known a few of them. But not everyone who uses the welfare system is this way.
Although I've yet to find any statistics on children being murdered newer than 1994, the kidnapping statistics are insane. According to this site:
quote:
The number of missing persons reported to law enforcement has increased from 154, 341 in 1982 to 876,213 in 2000. That is an increase of 468%.
Granted, I think that number is inflated quite a bit due to the increase in population as well, but it's still really high. Plus, most of those are parent kidnappings, which an increase makes more sense with the divorce rate that we have.
Here GS folks is one awesome lady~ Ms. Abigail... shes' been through some very rough times & fought to make life for her and her children better~ :)-->
ah thanks, Safari. :)--> I must say it takes one to know one, cause I remember how wonderful you always were with the kiddos. And what a wonderful daddy your kiddos had too. It is good to see you again.
So abigail, you like many are the exception. Truth hurts, doesn't it? Take it from someone who spent over 5 years in the psychiatric profession, excuses are used to justify the behavior of the guilty. You should perhaps fill us in if your children feel that after everything you've done they haven't been scarred by your parenting, like you seem to pose the blame on your parents. The symptoms of ADD are nothing more than normal childhood behavior that because the parent(you or yours) can't control, has to find an excuse to let drugs do it! Seems odd that no one heard of ADD until the late '90s. Even good parents scar their children, or why else would some seek positive reinforcement of a cult?
Again agree or disagree, when I speak the truth it is the guilty who feel that they must justify. True the condition exists but perhaps sparing the rod has spoiled the child, thus manipulating the parent...The psychiatric community like weirwill loves money, and long term illness is their job security...regardless of what you or I think! :)-->
"Take it from someone who spent over 5 years in the psychiatric profession, excuses are used to justify the behavior of the guilty."
Well this explains a lot, Signals. Yeah, I've known a lot of people who worked in the mental health field, including my own mom. Most of them were nutcases who could not heal themselves. However, if one searches hard enough, eventually it is possible to find the rare gem.
"You should perhaps fill us in if your children feel that after everything you've done they haven't been scarred by your parenting"
Oh, I am sure they will, at least during some period of their lives. Hell the issue is never "will I screw up my kid" the issue is simply to what degree.
"like you seem to pose the blame on your parents."
Blame? Nope, I don't blame them, I simply understand them and love them for who they are. I also know they were imperfect, as everyone else is. I was not issuing blame but pointing out that because my parents didn't know how to parent well, I don't either. [Perhaps you missed this during your 5 years in the mental health field - but kids learn a great deal by modelling and if there is no model then the learning may not occur] So to correct that I do lots of reading and find those things which will work for me and my family.
This is how one breaks cycles of abuse, neglect, or even simply those of bad parenting. I will make some of the same mistakes they did and I will make many of my own mistakes along the way as well. But at least I won't make all of the same mistakes they made.
"The symptoms of ADD are nothing more than normal childhood behavior that because the parent(you or yours) can't control, has to find an excuse to let drugs do it!"
Gee you know a lot about me and my son for someone who has never met us. Did I EVER say my son was diagnosed with ADD??? Can you show me that?
"Seems odd that no one heard of ADD until the late '90s. "
Really? No one heard of it until the 90's? For someone who worked in the mental health field you sure are ignorant. My older brother was diagnosed as ADD or ADHD back in the 70's. I can certainly see why it is you may no longer be working in the mental health field.
"Even good parents scar their children, or why else would some seek positive reinforcement of a cult? "
I don't know - why did you seek the positive reinforcement of a cult? As for me - I was certainly not looking for positive reinforcement regarding parenting from TWI. In fact their poor doctrine on parenting was one of the many things that led to my departure from the particular organization.
But I understand, it is easy to take the person out of The Way - not always so easy to take The Way out of the person. I can see by your know it all, condenscending attitude that you have a long long WAY to go.
Are you sure you "worked" in the mental health field and were not a patient of the mental health field?
So abigail, you like many are the exception. Truth hurts, doesn't it? Take it from someone who spent over 5 years in the psychiatric profession, excuses are used to justify the behavior of the guilty. You should perhaps fill us in if your children feel that after everything you've done they haven't been scarred by your parenting, like you seem to pose the blame on your parents. The symptoms of ADD are nothing more than normal childhood behavior that because the parent(you or yours) can't control, has to find an excuse to let drugs do it! Seems odd that no one heard of ADD until the late '90s. Even good parents scar their children, or why else would some seek positive reinforcement of a cult?
And what position did you hold when you worked over five years in the psychiatric profession? Hopefully not as a doctor or a therapist.. If it was I can see why it was only over five years. After all the schooling you would need why was it only that long?....
First, let me tell you that although I worked in the field, I was a therapy aide who saw different aspects of abnormal psychology at the time.
I(unlike some) never diagnosed myself, because we all display abnormal symptoms to some extent. So if you(who doesn't know me) can assume that I'm a text book case, well that is your assumption! I like how abigail declared on certain comments about ADD that I don't know her. Well abigail, you just told me. It's called hitting a nerve.
Since it was awhile ago that I left the nutcases, I tend to look at things I know from outside the box. Books tell anybody anything that they want to hear. An example is thinking that certain(I said certain not all) criminals can be rehabilitated and when the shrink says they're ready to enter society, and released, they commit a more hanious crime than before. Thus back to the prison shrink, who's thinking of retirement.
Currently I work in Parks and Recreation centers for youth and the elderly, and you tend to see how kids do things, and catch them doing things they know they shouldn't. I'm sure yours are the exception, after all there are literally thousands of books on parenting, and none really agree. I've also dealt with normal children as young as 8 that are on an antipsychotic drug called lithium. Back when I was in the schizoid field, lithium could not be given to children under 14 because the level was undetermined. Perhaps they've come a long way since, but not enough is ineffective and too much can kill.
Some kids do have imbalances in the brain, I am not denying that. ADD was unheard of in my parts. Believe it or not sometimes it starts in a town, state, or area, and it has to be diagnosed and cross referenced with other symptoms. Perhaps to an extent it does exist, but, imo, it would have to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist and perhaps given an opinion by an independent MD.
I said somewhere I talk in general. I also warned that although I am talking about the subject as a whole, individuals take it personnally! Of course, they are always the exceptions. I stand by the fact, or let me put it another way with made up figures so you get the point: Of all the people diagnosed with ADD, about 80% don't really have it. Abigail, if like you said a family member was diagnosed back in the 70s, I'm wondering if it wasn't actually manic-depression(don't know if it still has that name today)??? Depression is a real thing, and sometimes just because people are upity or energetic, doesn't mean they aren't depressed!
As far as me, hell yeah my parents screwed me up. I got hit with everything from wooden spoons to brooms. Then at Catholic school I got the strap. Did it hurt? Sure, but since hind sight is 20/20 I think I'm a better person for it. My kid? Although I never touched or abused her she still thinks I screwed up her life. In my defence she lives with her mother, from an ugly divorce. So, yeah I'm asscrewed up as anyone else.
My actual point is that no matter how you raise your kid, they will go through some rebellion where they blame their parent for their lives. At some point people also have to become adults and take responsibility for their actions. Too many people want quick solutions as to why their children act the way they do and 99% of the time all it takes is love, hugs, and spending more time with them. Something that changed in the past 40 years as both parents began working.
Sometimes the child needs attention and will get it positive or negative. And yes, we are role models, unfortunately peer pressure is a tougher drive in that I've seen too many good kids go bad because they get in with the wrong kids. They also learn how to manupulate and pull the strings of the parent.
So perhaps your child does have ADD, Abigail, I wasn't talking specifically to you. I was talking about the majority. Interesting about living in a town dubbed 'a test market', you tend to see where we are going before others have a clue.
Signals... shame on you for those comments to Abigail...
Obviously you don't know Abigail, and it seems you should know her and her whole situation to make the comments that you did.
I know Abigail, and she found herself in a situation in life that required strength and courage to get out of. She did not view herself as a helpless victim, she stood up and fought back...even when she got slammed in the face...she just kept fighting!
She did what she needed to do, not only to survive, but to improve herself and her situation.
You should appologize for putting her into a general catagory, obviously trying to shame her...she is NOT typical, and her contribution to this life goes far beyond her children and herself.
TWI is SO good at picking people apart...fit into their ideal of exceptable living (perfection), and if you're not at that exceptable level...listen to your leadership as to how to change yourself to get there... refuse to do what they want~ GET OUT... They have quick, ridiculous answers to life...like 'so & so is having those problems because they talk with their earthly family, or because they have devil spirits, or because they don't SIT enough, or because they bought a house & didn't listen to OUR advise...probably could go on & on for pages!)
Life is not black and white. People are individuals. Don't forget to do some good You may actually help someone~
Just for the record SafariVista, the things you accuse me of doing is what abigail did herself! That too was a TWI tactic of passing the blame to others.
In my original post I was talking to sharon...go check it out. If you follow the thread instead of assuming, or thinking your friend needs help, it was abigail who was pinched in the nerve, not me. She took issue with what I said to sharon(in other words, she should have let go and minded her own business). Instead I am the one who has to defend my beliefs. Your right, I didn't know her, but guess what? I know her now!
I did not put her in a general category, but it was her who basically put herself there by thinking that the general applies to the individual.
So people, I don't mind saying I'm wrong or apologizing if I need to, but if you butt into a discussion I was having with someone else, and take issues with my general belief because you are the exception, welcome to the real world where the truth hurts!
So abigail, you like many are the exception. Truth hurts, doesn't it? Take it from someone who spent over 5 years in the psychiatric profession, excuses are used to justify the behavior of the guilty. You should perhaps fill us in if your children feel that after everything you've done they haven't been scarred by your parenting, like you seem to pose the blame on your parents. The symptoms of ADD are nothing more than normal childhood behavior that because the parent(you or yours) can't control, has to find an excuse to let drugs do it! Seems odd that no one heard of ADD until the late '90s. Even good parents scar their children, or why else would some seek positive reinforcement of a cult?
And what position did you hold when you worked over five years in the psychiatric profession? Hopefully not as a doctor or a therapist.. If it was I can see why it was only over five years. After all the schooling you would need why was it only that long?....
Since I already answered part of this somewhere, let me add that it was because of the years and training that I didn't persue a psychological career. Plus I began to see the real fakeness, as the different psychiatric facilities tried to pass their worst cases to others like the person really didn't matter.
I saw a man who was institutionalized for over 50 years, had everything done for him, and now he needed to be rehabilitated for the real world. This was because the institution lost funding and had to shut down. This man could not comprehend how to flick a light switch...and that's so easy a newborn could do it by accident. I left before ever seeing if they can teach a 70 something old man new tricks. I saw a lady who was addicted to electoshock treatments. I saw people attempt suicide. I saw violent and criminally insane. I saw a slight overdose of lithium cause a person's tounge to swell so much it was blocking his breathing and coming out of his mouth. I also saw One Flew Over a Cuckoos Nest and felt it was right!
Signals, if you'd follow the thread, I was speaking about the response you gave to Abigail... not to someone else
I'm just not liking you very much Signals... maybe there is something else we should all know about you...
The truth you speak of seems somewhat tainted~ since you left the field... maybe some of the information you learned should be buried also... if things were going on that made you want to leave, please don't pass the junk along... could it be that what you think you know isn't accurate?
So you don't like me, big deal! And my stories have holes in them, tough! I'm 54 years old and somethings in my life crisscrossed at certain points. Personally, I don't really want you to know me.
But your and anyone elses' opinion hurts as much as if I never heard it.
Since you are being a stickler, let me enlighten you...I spoke of ADD in my post to sharon. Again, knowledge of none, if you look at abigail's comments to sharon, she begins to quote ME and put in her ideology. All her quotes were in reference to me.
So if you hate me I suppose I won't get that Way Gold Medal. If my stories and dates seem tangled, well I never kept a diary so I may be off a few years. Unlike druids who are sticklers for dates and events, sorry but I've lived my life to the fullest and didn't really write time and dates when things occurred. I thought I had left the way in 81, but as thingsstart jarring my mind, I believe it was more like early 80. I once confused the 78 winter olympics with the summer of 80! So sorry if things don't add up, but maybe putting your nose in your own business will give you less to worry about. Again abigail is a big girl, let her defend herself and if she proves me wrong or there was a misunderstanding I will be glad to apologize.
As far as anything being accurate: You were or are in TWI, were/aren't you?
It sounds like you worked in the field in the eighties? Or even the early nineties.
There have been a lot of changes since then for the good. Lots of research has been done. In fact there is a lot of info on the internet if your interested.
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Abigail
There is, in my mind, no way to justify killing a child. However, as I say with child abuse, I don't condone it but on some level I can understand it.
Parents are under a tremendous amount of pressure these days, battling poverty, trying to work and raise a child alone, fighting with the school, etc. etc. There is little support for parents in this country, those of us who fight for our kids fight alone, without the benefit of partners, extended family, and community. When our kids misbehave we take all the blame.
In addition, many kids grow up without any concept of delayed gratification, responsibility, and sacrifice.
Add to that the increasing number of parents who are still babies themselves and the increasing number of people who are abusing drug and I have to say it is beyond tragic, but not suprising that these things happen.
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Mister P-Mosh
I hate to say it, but this is actually most likely in decline. All violent crime has been in decline over the past decade or so, but on the other hand, the cable "entertainment" news stations like CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc. all sensationalize this stuff and pump it into our houses 24/7 if we let them.
There is no reason for someone in Texas (like me) to hear about a child murdered in Idaho, unless there's some chance that the murderer would have come down here. I agree that it's a horrible tragedy, but it's no more "news" here than the fact that a new restaurant opened there. I'd prefer that the news focus on things that actually affect everyone, and possibly even say some good news once in a while.
That will never happen though. The news is not about giving us useful information. It's about making us afraid of everything they can, working society up into a frenzy over celebrity and politician worship, spreading government propaganda, and most importantly, getting us to pay attention so we sit through their commercials.
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Allan
Maybe it has something to with 'the (natural, instinctual) love of many waxing cold'
Gee, where have I read that ??!
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satori001
Each incident is unique. When you have emotionally disturbed adults in charge of their young children, the adults can't deal with stress appropriately. They revert to a child's coping strategies, or even an animal's.
The current welfare system has made child-rearing a cottage industry for emotionally disturbed or immature girls. The gods of compassion, left wing politicians, don't care about the results, only the appearance of doing something, so the problems persist.
For every murder, there are hundreds or thousands of cases where severe physical abuse takes place, and there must be millions of cases where excessive and/or persistent (if not severe) abuse is used to control children.
There isn't a parent alive who hasn't gotten mad at their kids. Healthy parents learn to express their feelings without lashing out. They express their love through their anger, but with all necessary restraint. Unhealthy parents often just hurt their kids.
Most adults who do horrible things were children to whom horrible things were done. It doesn't excuse anything, adults can overrule their feelings and take the appropriate action, whether or not they feel like it, but it should motivate us to find a way to break the cycle as effectively as we can.
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Abigail
"Most adults who do horrible things were children to whom horrible things were done. It doesn't excuse anything, adults can overrule their feelings and take the appropriate action, whether or not they feel like it, but it should motivate us to find a way to break the cycle as effectively as we can."
Very well said. How about parenting classes? We are not born with an innate understanding of how to raise children. How about some sort of support system for when a parent really needs a break? Counseling for at risk parents and children?
Even the the problems will still exist - but perhaps we could at least reduce the numbers.
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satori001
Parenting classes? Like, requiring a driver's license, or a dog license?
The ACLU be comin' after you.
Seriously, it presents a whole long list of problems. Proper parenting has many competing doctrines. There are still people who say "spare the rod and spoil the child."
I do think there could be parenting "information sessions" offered, where information might be dispensed in as neutral a manner as possible.
But most of that information is available now, and the ones who need it most are the least likely to want it.
I WOULD make it a requirement for receiving welfare. If you want the public to raise your kid, then the public gets to have a say in how you do it. Just my opinion.
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Mister P-Mosh
If the Republicans were not so against sexual education and birth control, unwanted pregnancies would not occur in the huge numbers that happen today.
I do agree that welfare needs some major reform, but with the Republicans running this country right now, I don't see them doing anything to solve this problem. Instead, I guess keeping steriods out of baseball is more important than things like fighting child abuse, balancing the federal budget, improving our economy, fighting terrorism, or anything else.
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Abigail
"I do think there could be parenting "information sessions" offered, where information might be dispensed in as neutral a manner as possible."
There are programs that are fairly neutral and easy to tailor to your own specific value systems. "Love and Logic" is an excellent example of this.
"But most of that information is available now, and the ones who need it most are the least likely to want it."
There are also those who want it but can't find it or afford it. I think - offer the classes through a Community Mental Health program on a sliding scale fee basis. AND = if you have a kid who is continually in trouble with schools, truancy, etc. make the classes mandatory for the parents.
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signals
It's pretty much always been that way. Andrea Yates made headlines when she drowned all her children. Don't know if you remember that girl in one of the Carolinas who claimed a black man carjacked her and took her kids hostage. Oh how people felt sorry. Somehow from the beginning I felt she was lying, because not a hair was out of place and her mascara wasn't running when she was crying and sobbing(no tears).
Come to find out her current boyfriend wasn't crazy about kids, so she locked her 2 kids in the car and put a brick on the gas pedal so the car would drive into lake.
A few years back someone did a study of certain mothers who try to kill their kids. It's more common than you think. Back in the 70s a mother and her daughter were in a reastaurant, and because her daughter was acting up, she took her in the ladies' room and beat her to death. Within 100 miles of my area over the past 20 years there have been so many cases of mothers killing their syblings. It's on the increase, btw!
And these are just the cases of mothers. Then there are the fathers and both.
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SafariVista
Sharon, your mom sounds wonderful! Bet she has some interesting stories to tell.
I couldn't agree with you more about welfare...there is no reason for most people to collect a check and not work for it. There are many things that could be required in order to get the help.
As far as Parents...Some people should not have children...I know of a few personally, and there is something wrong with their mind, they do not think soundly, and their children are living in danger.
Why are parents killing their children... Abigail makes some interesting points... parents don't have the freedom to parent...
I don't either... but do what needs to be done, or figure ways to make sure my children are held resposible for their actions. The message to them is clear & consistant! (although, they much rather hear how wonderful I think they are... and tend to do things that will bring on those types of comments)
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signals
Well said, Sharon! The trouble started with Dr. Spock(not to be confused with the pointy eared Mr) and peaked when Hillary said it takes a village to raise a child. Somehow certain people perceived that the world was recruited as their babysitters. No matter how onruly your kid is...reason with them rather than hitting and scarring them for life. No wonder parents tend to explode. But never fear, because what Spock started can now be treated with Riddelin! They are diagnosed with ADD or ADHD! Plus some counseling and there you go...
The more parents try to be less than their own parents, the worse things get. Scarring for life means that a lesson is learned and a moral instilled. Reasoning gives the advantage to the child, as he becomes smarter and more manipulative than the parent.
Then don't get me started on Welfare as that is only a check to breed. Them working? HA! They had a program where a couple of times a week people on welfare had to go do civil service work while being supervised. They claimed they were humiliated and felt like prisoners. Ironically they aren't humiliated getting that check for their kids from various fathers.
So Andrea claims PostPartum depression, and you know the whole psychiatric community is going to prove it, thus giving a new excuse to the masses. Someone goofed(ooops) with Susan and put her in main stream criminal population and she was almost beaten to death. Look for the book. The lady who killed her daughter in a restroom had gotten life. She was released a couple of years ago because she was a model inmate, good behavior, and Glenn Close took a liking to her. Her surviving daughter still claimed her mother was innocent. The restroom had blood all over the place!
I know all parents say that I will never raise my kids like my parents raised me. Then did our parents actually do a bad job?
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Abigail
I have to take issue with some of this. I think there are some very valid points made in the past few posts, but there is also some pretty wide blanket statements.
Sharon, your mom sounds pretty amazing. Unfortunately, many women would not come through such difficult circumstances so well. Why is that? A myrad of reasons, none of which means they wouldn't like to come through as well (although certainly there is a percentage who just don't give a ****).
"I know all parents say that I will never raise my kids like my parents raised me. Then did our parents actually do a bad job?"
Yes, mine did. My parents bounced back and forth between forgetting I exhisted at all and letting me run absolutely wild, to trying to control the very air I breathed. It was a very crazy way to grow up - never knowing what was expected and when the hammer was gonna fall.
As a parent myself now, I try to be more consistent and even keeled. However, I also find myself slipping into some of my parent's patters with my own kids. Situations come up that I don't know how to handle because no one ever handled them with me. So I have read many many books on parenting and am taking a parenting class now. I take those things I find useful and use them - the rest I toss.
"They are diagnosed with ADD or ADHD! Plus some counseling and there you go..."
Again I take issue with the implied notion that none of these disorders exist. Are normal children sometimes misdiagnosed by overzealous doctors, or over wrought parents and teachers, absolutely. BUT these disorders are real, and until you have raised a child with one of them you cannot even begin to understand what is involved in doing it and doing it well.
I am very thankful for the knowledge we have gained in the psychological field and sit on pins and needles as we continue to learn more, not only in psychology but neurology as well.
Now you can say I am a bad parent because I have one of these kids. Then why is it both of my kids are not this way? I've raised them very much alike - though certainly I have made mistakes with my older son that I have not made with my younger and likewise mistakes with my younger that my older son never had to live through.
"Scarring for life means that a lesson is learned and a moral instilled. Reasoning gives the advantage to the child, as he becomes smarter and more manipulative than the parent. "
This can be the case, but is not always so. Some times scarring for life results in the 'sins of the parents that are passed on down to the children" in the same way that NOT parenting a child can do. Likewise, reasoning can teachm a child to become more manipulative than the parent (interesting phrase - I prefer to teach my children, not manipulate them) but reason can also teach a child to think for themselves, when done properly.
"Then don't get me started on Welfare as that is only a check to breed. Them working? HA! "
Well this is one mom who had the misfortune of needing to 'use the system' for a time and didn't receive a check to breed. I have worked hard, continue to work hard, and I am no longer in need of the assistance. However, I am very thankful it was there for the two years I did.
Don't misunderstand - I get that there are women who use the check to breed, I've known a few of them. But not everyone who uses the welfare system is this way.
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Mister P-Mosh
Although I've yet to find any statistics on children being murdered newer than 1994, the kidnapping statistics are insane. According to this site:
Granted, I think that number is inflated quite a bit due to the increase in population as well, but it's still really high. Plus, most of those are parent kidnappings, which an increase makes more sense with the divorce rate that we have.
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SafariVista
Gee Abigail, I'd just like to hug you~ really!
Here GS folks is one awesome lady~ Ms. Abigail... shes' been through some very rough times & fought to make life for her and her children better~
:)-->
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Abigail
ah thanks, Safari.
:)--> I must say it takes one to know one, cause I remember how wonderful you always were with the kiddos. And what a wonderful daddy your kiddos had too. It is good to see you again.
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signals
So abigail, you like many are the exception. Truth hurts, doesn't it? Take it from someone who spent over 5 years in the psychiatric profession, excuses are used to justify the behavior of the guilty. You should perhaps fill us in if your children feel that after everything you've done they haven't been scarred by your parenting, like you seem to pose the blame on your parents. The symptoms of ADD are nothing more than normal childhood behavior that because the parent(you or yours) can't control, has to find an excuse to let drugs do it! Seems odd that no one heard of ADD until the late '90s. Even good parents scar their children, or why else would some seek positive reinforcement of a cult?
Again agree or disagree, when I speak the truth it is the guilty who feel that they must justify. True the condition exists but perhaps sparing the rod has spoiled the child, thus manipulating the parent...The psychiatric community like weirwill loves money, and long term illness is their job security...regardless of what you or I think!
:)-->
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Abigail
"Take it from someone who spent over 5 years in the psychiatric profession, excuses are used to justify the behavior of the guilty."
Well this explains a lot, Signals. Yeah, I've known a lot of people who worked in the mental health field, including my own mom. Most of them were nutcases who could not heal themselves. However, if one searches hard enough, eventually it is possible to find the rare gem.
"You should perhaps fill us in if your children feel that after everything you've done they haven't been scarred by your parenting"
Oh, I am sure they will, at least during some period of their lives. Hell the issue is never "will I screw up my kid" the issue is simply to what degree.
"like you seem to pose the blame on your parents."
Blame? Nope, I don't blame them, I simply understand them and love them for who they are. I also know they were imperfect, as everyone else is. I was not issuing blame but pointing out that because my parents didn't know how to parent well, I don't either. [Perhaps you missed this during your 5 years in the mental health field - but kids learn a great deal by modelling and if there is no model then the learning may not occur] So to correct that I do lots of reading and find those things which will work for me and my family.
This is how one breaks cycles of abuse, neglect, or even simply those of bad parenting. I will make some of the same mistakes they did and I will make many of my own mistakes along the way as well. But at least I won't make all of the same mistakes they made.
"The symptoms of ADD are nothing more than normal childhood behavior that because the parent(you or yours) can't control, has to find an excuse to let drugs do it!"
Gee you know a lot about me and my son for someone who has never met us. Did I EVER say my son was diagnosed with ADD??? Can you show me that?
"Seems odd that no one heard of ADD until the late '90s. "
Really? No one heard of it until the 90's? For someone who worked in the mental health field you sure are ignorant. My older brother was diagnosed as ADD or ADHD back in the 70's. I can certainly see why it is you may no longer be working in the mental health field.
"Even good parents scar their children, or why else would some seek positive reinforcement of a cult? "
I don't know - why did you seek the positive reinforcement of a cult? As for me - I was certainly not looking for positive reinforcement regarding parenting from TWI. In fact their poor doctrine on parenting was one of the many things that led to my departure from the particular organization.
But I understand, it is easy to take the person out of The Way - not always so easy to take The Way out of the person. I can see by your know it all, condenscending attitude that you have a long long WAY to go.
Are you sure you "worked" in the mental health field and were not a patient of the mental health field?
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vickles
And what position did you hold when you worked over five years in the psychiatric profession? Hopefully not as a doctor or a therapist..
If it was I can see why it was only over five years. After all the schooling you would need why was it only that long?.... 
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SafariVista
Life is not black and white. People are individuals. Don't forget to do some good
You may actually help someone~
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signals
First, let me tell you that although I worked in the field, I was a therapy aide who saw different aspects of abnormal psychology at the time.
I(unlike some) never diagnosed myself, because we all display abnormal symptoms to some extent. So if you(who doesn't know me) can assume that I'm a text book case, well that is your assumption! I like how abigail declared on certain comments about ADD that I don't know her. Well abigail, you just told me. It's called hitting a nerve.
Since it was awhile ago that I left the nutcases, I tend to look at things I know from outside the box. Books tell anybody anything that they want to hear. An example is thinking that certain(I said certain not all) criminals can be rehabilitated and when the shrink says they're ready to enter society, and released, they commit a more hanious crime than before. Thus back to the prison shrink, who's thinking of retirement.
Currently I work in Parks and Recreation centers for youth and the elderly, and you tend to see how kids do things, and catch them doing things they know they shouldn't. I'm sure yours are the exception, after all there are literally thousands of books on parenting, and none really agree. I've also dealt with normal children as young as 8 that are on an antipsychotic drug called lithium. Back when I was in the schizoid field, lithium could not be given to children under 14 because the level was undetermined. Perhaps they've come a long way since, but not enough is ineffective and too much can kill.
Some kids do have imbalances in the brain, I am not denying that. ADD was unheard of in my parts. Believe it or not sometimes it starts in a town, state, or area, and it has to be diagnosed and cross referenced with other symptoms. Perhaps to an extent it does exist, but, imo, it would have to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist and perhaps given an opinion by an independent MD.
I said somewhere I talk in general. I also warned that although I am talking about the subject as a whole, individuals take it personnally! Of course, they are always the exceptions. I stand by the fact, or let me put it another way with made up figures so you get the point: Of all the people diagnosed with ADD, about 80% don't really have it. Abigail, if like you said a family member was diagnosed back in the 70s, I'm wondering if it wasn't actually manic-depression(don't know if it still has that name today)??? Depression is a real thing, and sometimes just because people are upity or energetic, doesn't mean they aren't depressed!
As far as me, hell yeah my parents screwed me up. I got hit with everything from wooden spoons to brooms. Then at Catholic school I got the strap. Did it hurt? Sure, but since hind sight is 20/20 I think I'm a better person for it. My kid? Although I never touched or abused her she still thinks I screwed up her life. In my defence she lives with her mother, from an ugly divorce. So, yeah I'm asscrewed up as anyone else.
My actual point is that no matter how you raise your kid, they will go through some rebellion where they blame their parent for their lives. At some point people also have to become adults and take responsibility for their actions. Too many people want quick solutions as to why their children act the way they do and 99% of the time all it takes is love, hugs, and spending more time with them. Something that changed in the past 40 years as both parents began working.
Sometimes the child needs attention and will get it positive or negative. And yes, we are role models, unfortunately peer pressure is a tougher drive in that I've seen too many good kids go bad because they get in with the wrong kids. They also learn how to manupulate and pull the strings of the parent.
So perhaps your child does have ADD, Abigail, I wasn't talking specifically to you. I was talking about the majority. Interesting about living in a town dubbed 'a test market', you tend to see where we are going before others have a clue.
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signals
Just for the record SafariVista, the things you accuse me of doing is what abigail did herself! That too was a TWI tactic of passing the blame to others.
In my original post I was talking to sharon...go check it out. If you follow the thread instead of assuming, or thinking your friend needs help, it was abigail who was pinched in the nerve, not me. She took issue with what I said to sharon(in other words, she should have let go and minded her own business). Instead I am the one who has to defend my beliefs. Your right, I didn't know her, but guess what? I know her now!
I did not put her in a general category, but it was her who basically put herself there by thinking that the general applies to the individual.
So people, I don't mind saying I'm wrong or apologizing if I need to, but if you butt into a discussion I was having with someone else, and take issues with my general belief because you are the exception, welcome to the real world where the truth hurts!
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signals
Since I already answered part of this somewhere, let me add that it was because of the years and training that I didn't persue a psychological career. Plus I began to see the real fakeness, as the different psychiatric facilities tried to pass their worst cases to others like the person really didn't matter.
I saw a man who was institutionalized for over 50 years, had everything done for him, and now he needed to be rehabilitated for the real world. This was because the institution lost funding and had to shut down. This man could not comprehend how to flick a light switch...and that's so easy a newborn could do it by accident. I left before ever seeing if they can teach a 70 something old man new tricks. I saw a lady who was addicted to electoshock treatments. I saw people attempt suicide. I saw violent and criminally insane. I saw a slight overdose of lithium cause a person's tounge to swell so much it was blocking his breathing and coming out of his mouth. I also saw One Flew Over a Cuckoos Nest and felt it was right!
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signals
So you don't like me, big deal! And my stories have holes in them, tough! I'm 54 years old and somethings in my life crisscrossed at certain points. Personally, I don't really want you to know me.
But your and anyone elses' opinion hurts as much as if I never heard it.
Since you are being a stickler, let me enlighten you...I spoke of ADD in my post to sharon. Again, knowledge of none, if you look at abigail's comments to sharon, she begins to quote ME and put in her ideology. All her quotes were in reference to me.
So if you hate me I suppose I won't get that Way Gold Medal. If my stories and dates seem tangled, well I never kept a diary so I may be off a few years. Unlike druids who are sticklers for dates and events, sorry but I've lived my life to the fullest and didn't really write time and dates when things occurred. I thought I had left the way in 81, but as thingsstart jarring my mind, I believe it was more like early 80. I once confused the 78 winter olympics with the summer of 80! So sorry if things don't add up, but maybe putting your nose in your own business will give you less to worry about. Again abigail is a big girl, let her defend herself and if she proves me wrong or there was a misunderstanding I will be glad to apologize.
As far as anything being accurate: You were or are in TWI, were/aren't you?
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vickles
signals,
It sounds like you worked in the field in the eighties? Or even the early nineties.
There have been a lot of changes since then for the good. Lots of research has been done. In fact there is a lot of info on the internet if your interested.
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