it isnt magaic powers instilled in a person because God must love them more than the rest, I find that thinking sick and yes full of ego/
So do I.
I can see why you think we are full of ego if you think we think God loves us more than the rest.
But that's not our thinking.
What I don't see is why you think we think God loves us more than the rest. You're the one saying that God decides to heal some and not others. THAT seems whimsicle to me, yet I'm not all up in your computer screen calling your thinking sick. Please don't project your personal anger onto me.
Jesus is a non-discriminatory sacrifice. He got his face bashed in beyond recognition so that everyone could be healed and heal in his name.
You're free to argue with that.
I'd rather accept it. Your rejection doesn't make my acceptance a matter of discrimination on God's part, does it?
You metion Jesus as the healer, I end the statement right there , not some "believer" of powers bestowed on them as a special one who knows better and does better than the rest. ie ego
I gave a question tho who is the* our *your referring to? Are YOU a group that you speak for? please identify yourself in this group think thing.
so why do some get healed and others do not? Is it all about a persons believing power? what about the individual who has prayed and it didnt work ? um why ? Does your Jesus pick and chose ? If so then what happens to learn the details to get on that gravy train? Was it really that mom of the only childs believing that killed that boy?
You metion Jesus as the healer, I end the statement right there , not some "believer"
You may end the statement right there, but Jesus didn't.
Mark 16:17,18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
quote:
I gave a question tho who is the* our *your referring to?
I felt that your remarks were directed at Lorna and myself since we were both basically saying the same thing that Jesus said above - sorry if I was wrong. I'll speak for myself.
quote:
so why do some get healed and others do not? Is it all about a persons believing power?
People's believing doesn't have the power to bring to pass the kind of healing that we are speaking about - unless they're believing according to the working of God's mighty power which he put in Christ whom he gave to be the head over all things to his body all the fullness of Christ in every individual. That's power.
quote:
what about the individual who has prayed and it didnt work ? um why ? Does your Jesus pick and chose ?
My Jesus never prayed for anyone to be healed, and my Jesus never told his disciples to pray to heal people.
My Jesus "...sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick - Luke 9:2."
My Jesus told them to "...heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you - Luke 10:9."
My Jesus said "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
And when my Jesus told people to heal people, they did, and it worked.
Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
Luke 10:17 ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Acts 28:8 ...Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
If your Jesus says that people healing people is magic, sick thinking, and egotistical, but people praying for people is cool, then you'll have to ask your Jesus why it doesn't work.
I don't think that the human factor in healing can be overlooked, unless one wants to ignore the fact that not everybody gets healed...Christian or not.
If one holds the position that healing occurs as an answer to a prayer (which pretty much means " a request") to God, then the question of why God doesn't always heal must be answered.
Personally I find the answer
quote:
Yes we all will be helaed but the bible does not say WHEN.
if your child died and was ill with disability yes he/she will be healed but yet he/she died and may not walk or talk till he is raised again.
to be unsatisfying. To paraphrase our favorite deceased cult leader, that mindset seems to say: "I've God a jack, but I won't help you until you've got a new car".
Thomas used the word whimsical, I used the word capricious. Maybe arbitrary fits in as well. God has the power to heal, and he does it sometimes, and other times he just heals us a little bit, and other times you're just a freakin' rose petal in heaven.
It's like Calvin-ball! You never really know what the rules are!
I'm going to make use of whatever mecahnism there is out there for healing, and not wait around for a god to grant my petition...or not.
Hebrews 11:6 Â But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
As far as PFAL, it was the WORD that was taught that God has his blessings on. I would not give glory to any ministry or person, it was The Body of Christ functioning together at the time through the classes that were run that brought about deliverance. The class in itself had the Word in it so God was able to work thru his Word. It doesn't matter who, when or where, it's always the Word.
Was PFAL perfect, maybe not, I don't care, people received deliverance. If people got to the place where they were elevating the "class","people" over the Word, then they were being idolatrous. That is like TWI II worshipping The Bible over the Author.
So what I am again saying is that I learned more about God in the class than I had anywhere else. It was The Word being spoken. As far as plagerism, who owns the Word of God. If I do a teaching from the Word because of GOD's inspiration in my heart to help or bless someone, should I copywrite it? It was God working in me. If that person receives deliverance from what I wrote, should they forward it to help others. Maybe they would work what I send to them and see for themselves and then share it in a different light and send it on. God is still the author of anything that has to do with his Word.
Would any of us here think that Bullinger intended to write anything down that he did not want people to use to enlighten them to the knowledge of Christ? How can you take what a man (inspired by God) shares with you, try it, see results and not want to share it with others. You take the same teaching, see different things and you share what you learned. Since there is only one Word, you will repeat things you have learned but it's still God's Word, not ours when we speak or teach.
I really don't know how to explain it any other way. Plagerism is man's law. I believe in copywrites; however anyone putting together anything from the Word better give the credits to the Author of the Word because God has the copywrite on His Word. We are free to use it to learn from.
So this is my humble opinion and I understand that some may think otherwise and I respect that.
As far as PFAL, it was the WORD that was taught that God has his blessings on. I would not give glory to any ministry or person, it was The Body of Christ functioning together at the time through the classes that were run that brought about deliverance. The class in itself had the Word in it so God was able to work thru his Word. It doesn't matter who, when or where, it's always the Word.
This is incredible. The above paragraph is so "right on" with what WaySpeak is all about. You've convinced me of one thing - that you were in TWI. No one could say those things without a thorough immersion in The Way experience.
quote:
So what I am again saying is that I learned more about God in the class than I had anywhere else.
Then you are speaking for yourself. If it was "the Word" then there would
be universal acceptance of PFAL as that. But lots of people take different views of PFAL. Some like myself think very dimly of it and how it was accomplished. A rouge preacher booted out of his primary denomination tries to get back on his feet by stealing the works of others and claiming a vision of God ? Sorry
I don't respect that. Furthermore what he stole doesn't represent "god breathed word". Its just something someone wrote.
quote:
It was The Word being spoken. As far as plagerism, who owns the Word of God.
Again, PFAL is NOT "the word of god". The material was taken from a variety of sources without permission. All of these sources were the works of man. To worhsip them is idolatry just as worshipping VPW is also idolatry. Additionally the so called "LAw of Believeing" doesn't work. It failed the mighty "Teacher" who couldn't "believe enough" to deliver himself from illness. This was at a time when people in the field were dumped on for not having "enough believing" for a large variety of things. Besides if VPW was "The Teacher" then what did he do to let the "adversary" get through that "hedge of protection" and cause cancer ? Guess PFAL didn't help him except to line his pockets with all those "donations" people made to take the class.
Thomas used the word whimsical, I used the word capricious. Maybe arbitrary fits in as well. God has the power to heal, and he does it sometimes, and other times he just heals us a little bit, and other times you're just a freakin' rose petal in heaven.
It's like Calvin-ball! You never really know what the rules are!
:D--> Magic 8 Ball says "Try Again Tomorrow!" :D-->
IF....IF....PFAL was correct, THEN the subject of healings would work with a mathmatical exactness and a scientific precision. It doesn't and not one person can say why with any certainty. You (rhetorical) have absolutely no right and no way of knowing about a person's believing or "whatever" you think is "required" from God for results. It's very personal and a more honest answer, imo, would be "I don't know."
When I was in twi, I never was ministered to. that I know of anyway, no one used that word.
The CES and spirit and truth group speak a great deal about ministring ? how do ya even spell that? to one another, John Lynn said that is why he quit . so he could more time ministering to God people.
I do not know what ministering even is.
can someone tell me? Is it not prayer?
Oak I think every parent would exhuast what ever resource well maybe not everyone but most. I hada good friend in High school lose his twin sister because his parents refused to allow a blood transfusion after a bad car accident. they were jehova witness's.
but most christians do seek help with illness or injury, from professionals .
John Lynn said that is why he quit . so he could more time ministering to God people.
JAL Needs to get over himself. He aint all that, never was. He is in all this to be seen and heard no matter how he feels. He wants to teach he will yell about it. He wants to be left alone you will hear about it by him. JAL is an attention getter that is all he is. A huge FLOP of an ego.
You know sometimes I think this thread could be merged with "the voice of God". I think that instantaneous healing that some have experienced is that "still small voice" that speaks to your heart and to your heart only.
E.W. Kenyons writings had a profound effect on me. Especially "Jesus the Healer". I believe that was the name of the book. The reality of what Jesus truly suffered is beyond us I think. I believe the crucifixtion was more than just a "crown of thorns" with blood droplets oozing down the face. If Jesus, suffered for all of us, and had to experience "all of our sins" and "disbelief" then the hatred of the devil would have to be enormous, and the physical suffering had to be more than just a picture hanging on your living room wall with droplets of blood on his forehead. He had to take the "whole" sin of humanity and bear it for us. This is truly awesome if you think about it. And ugly. I got pretty nauseated during Mel Gibson's film, "The Passion of the Christ". I had to turn away, and I believe with all my heart that Jesus truly suffered multiple times more than the film depicted. In order to take the whole of humanity's sin, it must have been pure hatred on the part of those who partook in his beatings and tauntings.
I do not pretend to understand it all, but in my own personal life, in the depth of my heart, God performed a miracle for me.
Life is a journey, not every path will be rose petaled, but it is a truly wonderful learning experience, if you can look at it that way. I do believe we each decide our own destinations by our thoughts (call it believing or whatever), but even the bible says that what you truly believe in your heart, you will receive or become (however you want to translate it).
...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.....
Tom I believe that you saw his suffering in your hour of need.
When I was in twi, I never was ministered to. that I know of anyway, no one used that word.
mj, I'm not sure why you have brought up that term here - has anyone used the word on this thread? I missed it, if so.
A minister in the context of this thread is a person who attends to the wants and needs of others serving as an agent for Jesus Christ. First he receives from Jesus Christ things that Jesus has for people, then he gives those things to people as an agent for Jesus Christ. He ministers the things of Jesus Christ to people.
More specifically, in the case of healing, he ministers (serves to people) the healing that Jesus Christ gives to him for them. I know it can seem egotistical to say that, but it is really the most humbling thing I know of. An example is where Peter said, "Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Peter had it to give to the lame man. Where did he get it to give - from Jesus Christ. And in his name - acting for Jesus Christ with the things of Jesus Christ in hand, ie. healing - he gave it.
Freely you have received; freely give.
It's big, I know - but there are no specially favoured people here. It is for us all - we've just underestimated what Jesus accomplished.
I brought it up because I figured some of you would know the answer .
so as I thought but never had anyone tell me, I never asked before.
When a person ministers to another they play like a mini jesus now, not a mog not a believer a mini jesus who can do the works He did. how very inflating. well not me. I rather believe because of falling on knees for a few years at His humble grace myself.
just a different perspective I guess.
. I can pray for a person and if it is Gods will it will be done. As far as dictacted what and who gets healed it isnt in my head or thought or hands to do such.
that is one of the last conversation I had before getting marked I was told andI quote" JUST TELL GOD" blah blah I realized then it was the man I was talking to who thought he was calling the shots for God.
I just do not agree with it.
My response was I can ask in the name of Jesus christ, but I do not tell God to do anything for me.
with the number of divorces and etc. in twi I aint so sure it is working according to the plan anyway.
whatever floats your boat. I hope nothing bad never happens.
Great insight Krys, now maybe this thread will go away.
That's rather an odd thing to say ladies. Maybe you should just "go away" from the thread if you don't care for what is being discussed. Lots of people have shared alot of their heart here, hardly a nice thing to do to just dismiss them.....
I find this idea totally appauling. This is one of the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard about my lord Jesus Christ.
I wouldn't take that remark so personally, krys. I'm guessing by the rest of your post that your Jesus is the same as my Jesus. If so, then mj's remark wasn't really made about your Jesus or my Jesus. I know mj keeps confusing my Jesus with the Jesus of TWI. Then, of course, there is mj's Jesus. It can get pretty confusing.
I can understand her confusion. VPW kicked Jesus out of his position as head of the body and took his place - well, not really, but within the confines (yes, "confines" is a good word) of his "revelation" of the hierarchal Way Tree structure of TWI when he tried to incorporate the body of Christ. And he took the place of Christ - as did all his leadership by proxy (proxy: the authorization to act for another - the other no longer being the Lord Jesus Christ, but now Wierwille). The organic body of Christ was thus replaced - again only within the confines of TWI - with a mechanical model, The Way Tree. It had a form of godliness, but, more and more, it denied the power thereof.
This was not the Jesus of the bible. To her credit, mj rejected this counterfeit Jesus, turning back to the best thing she knew no doubt. Thereby, she fulfilled the prophecy in Galatians 1:6-8, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
"...let him be accursed." That's exactly what mj did, and I applaud her for that.
This "other Jesus" that was preached in TWI is the spirit of antichrist in action. Its purpose is to primarily keep people from the true Jesus Christ. This it accomplished very effectively within the pressure cooker of TWI. I don't know about anyone else here, but most of what I learned about the accomplishments of the true Jesus Christ, I learned in the days before the "way" was incorporated back in '72. Jesus Christ was very much in our minds, hearts, speech, songs, and actions. This got snuffed out little by little as the leaven of legalism moved throughout TWI. An actual relationship with a living Jesus Christ was forbidden more and more and holy spirit, rather than a seed opening to a living, spiritually alive brotherhood, became a freaky battery pack to be operated at will - as mj indicated.
I dont know about others, but it wasn't until years after I left TWI that all that cover of the spirit of antichrist fell away as I listened to the words of a song by a brother in Christ with a vital relationship with the things of Jesus Christ going on in his life. The realization came flooding in - this is the Jesus that I knew, the one I've been ripped off from by TWI for years. Its been growing ever since.
Everybody's experience is different. Were it not for some of what the believers taught me in the early days of TWI before its incorporation, the only thing I would have to revert back to would be my Catholic upbringing - something similar to mj.
So, I dont care that she can't hear me or won't. Maybe she will. If not, so what? Sure, I'd appreciate it if she would stop confusing my Jesus with the oppressive monster that used TWI as a springboard to hurt God's people, but meanwhile I enjoy the opportunity to jack that monster around on a multitude of points he has used to misdirect a lot of people for a lot of years on a thread that at this point has been viewed 1,224 times. More than that, I enjoy glorifying the true Jesus Christ.
Peter used the accusation that the apostles, speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost, were drunk, as a springboard to launch one of the most inspired teachings about what the gift of holy spirit is about.
Nice! Something to learn from!
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Oh, I don't know about "no" clue, SF, but is it really a bad thing to have a lot to learn? I mean even while they were with the living Jesus daily, his own disciples had a hard time figuring out who he was. The "only begotten of the Father" - well it would be redundant to say he was unique. Now that same Jesus has been raised from the dead and made to be the head over all things to his body - us. Wow, what IS that all about?
quote:
As a matter of fact~ while reading on a cult page about TWI, most of the 'bad' things they listed that this cult believes, I thought was true.
I don't doubt it, SF. I believe that TWI had a lot of the pieces or at least "talked" about them, but the pieces were all over the water - at least they certainly didn't fit together properly to float the boat.
VPW made the statement that when Jesus was talking about the spirit that was to come, the comforter, that it would testify of Jesus - that it would reveal the glorified Christ to us and if we received the revelation that we would be transformed to be more and more like the glorified Christ. Now THAT would have been something worth spending God's precious time pursuing - our identification with Christ - his ID, our ID, their relationship, what's it all about - instead of spending all that time defending what we should and shouldn't do with our pants down & who should submit themselves to whom in the process.
But the spirit is still here & it still works just fine & one of its functions is still to reveal the glorified Christ & what the body of Christ is all about to us - same way it did to Paul & with the help of its revelation to Paul to compliment its revelation to us.
After all "The Teacher" isn't someone you write to in New Knoxville, OH if you have questions because Jesus said in Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi [master or teacher]: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
The true teacher is still teaching.
John 16 Nevertheless I [Jesus] tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
... He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
"All things," might take a while :)-->
You confessed him as Lord. He knows everything that he needs to concerning every part of his body of which you are a part. Let him teach you who you are in him. He is really good at it & he has these really cool learning tools. I mean the analogy of holy sprit being a battery in a car waiting for you to step on the gas peddle goes only so far - really. Time to let The Spirit itself bear witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
Okay, I feel myself getting preachy here.
It's a good thing. We love him enough to tap the living water; we get transformed to the image of the glorified Jesus Christ.
Why is it so hard for some to believe that they can, indeed do the works Jesus did? Obviously if you don't believe you can, then you absolutely won't.
quote:
"mini jesus"
I find this idea totally appauling. This is one of the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard about my lord Jesus Christ.
Krys
following your first sentence along I assume you BELIEVE it was the mother FEAR(the mothers beliving) that killed that little boy her only child and everything HMMM.
ok pfal 101 on the grease spot forum.
I do not believe it was anyone's beliving that killed the little boy, I think it was Satan playing god and doing his job on earth.
I think that mom loved her child, prayed for her child and believed the best she could for her only son as she walked him to school every day. and I think he was murdered.
I believe Jesus christ will raise them both up to live forever with HIM as KING of KING.
I would not want to live in this world if I didnt know I had a Saviour a defense attorny , a best buddy, the love of my life, to promise me one day as Tom said sooner or later, We do not have an enemy that can and does rack and ruin. to put the power of His blood down to the mere fact of a human brain and how it thinks and believes about things is far to frightening for me.
I trust the program.
I know not every person will be healed today or tommorrow or for as long as the Lord does tary and I do not care how many bible verses or years in the way tree they have spentTime in.
this isnt our home, the bible says the situation as it sits will only get worse untill the whole dam thing is blown to hell and burned up.
but believe as you will I hope it is working for ya! sounds nice. as for me and my house WE Serve the LORD jesus christ only, and worship the most high God. and guess what we have problems lots of them with the faith to overcome this place and seek a higher ground of eternity in paradise. but today we have problems and the Lord brings a comforter to show us the way to cope and have peace amid the chaos.
You see I go to funerals of good people, I watch a praying mom's prayer for her hadicapped child hoping and believing things should be different then they happen to be. And still they confess Jesus as Lord, WHY? Because it is about Seeking God first in life and loving one another, not beliving our little brain can handle all this life brings without the LORD>
i wouldnt want you for a friend if something bad ever did happen to me, or if I was ever sick because to be honest I have had many many days and in fact years I cant believe what is going on around me, yet Jesus christ was always with me and NEVER ever forsake me Thank God almighty , He did believe for me when I just cant. That is HIS job and He is done doubting the Power of the Father and it is finished.
amen to that.
but without HIM I am just a scardy cat who really thinks this world is to frightening and big and hurtful on my own "believing".
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Tom
So do I.
I can see why you think we are full of ego if you think we think God loves us more than the rest.
But that's not our thinking.
What I don't see is why you think we think God loves us more than the rest. You're the one saying that God decides to heal some and not others. THAT seems whimsicle to me, yet I'm not all up in your computer screen calling your thinking sick. Please don't project your personal anger onto me.
Jesus is a non-discriminatory sacrifice. He got his face bashed in beyond recognition so that everyone could be healed and heal in his name.
You're free to argue with that.
I'd rather accept it. Your rejection doesn't make my acceptance a matter of discrimination on God's part, does it?
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outofdafog
Hey Tom,
Check out the new thread on Exorcism that I posted. Just out of curiosity, were you ever told by JJ or H**f that this took place?
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mj412
heller you and I agree.
and that is what Im saying exactly.
You metion Jesus as the healer, I end the statement right there , not some "believer" of powers bestowed on them as a special one who knows better and does better than the rest. ie ego
I gave a question tho who is the* our *your referring to? Are YOU a group that you speak for? please identify yourself in this group think thing.
so why do some get healed and others do not? Is it all about a persons believing power? what about the individual who has prayed and it didnt work ? um why ? Does your Jesus pick and chose ? If so then what happens to learn the details to get on that gravy train? Was it really that mom of the only childs believing that killed that boy?
oops sorry not interested in another cult.
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Tom
You may end the statement right there, but Jesus didn't.
Mark 16:17,18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I felt that your remarks were directed at Lorna and myself since we were both basically saying the same thing that Jesus said above - sorry if I was wrong. I'll speak for myself.
People's believing doesn't have the power to bring to pass the kind of healing that we are speaking about - unless they're believing according to the working of God's mighty power which he put in Christ whom he gave to be the head over all things to his body all the fullness of Christ in every individual. That's power.
My Jesus never prayed for anyone to be healed, and my Jesus never told his disciples to pray to heal people.
My Jesus "...sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick - Luke 9:2."
My Jesus told them to "...heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you - Luke 10:9."
My Jesus said "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
And when my Jesus told people to heal people, they did, and it worked.
Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
Luke 10:17 ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Acts 28:8 ...Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
If your Jesus says that people healing people is magic, sick thinking, and egotistical, but people praying for people is cool, then you'll have to ask your Jesus why it doesn't work.
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Oakspear
I don't think that the human factor in healing can be overlooked, unless one wants to ignore the fact that not everybody gets healed...Christian or not.
If one holds the position that healing occurs as an answer to a prayer (which pretty much means " a request") to God, then the question of why God doesn't always heal must be answered.
Personally I find the answer
to be unsatisfying. To paraphrase our favorite deceased cult leader, that mindset seems to say: "I've God a jack, but I won't help you until you've got a new car".Thomas used the word whimsical, I used the word capricious. Maybe arbitrary fits in as well. God has the power to heal, and he does it sometimes, and other times he just heals us a little bit, and other times you're just a freakin' rose petal in heaven.
It's like Calvin-ball! You never really know what the rules are!
I'm going to make use of whatever mecahnism there is out there for healing, and not wait around for a god to grant my petition...or not.
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LornaDoone
Hebrews 11:6 Â But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
As far as PFAL, it was the WORD that was taught that God has his blessings on. I would not give glory to any ministry or person, it was The Body of Christ functioning together at the time through the classes that were run that brought about deliverance. The class in itself had the Word in it so God was able to work thru his Word. It doesn't matter who, when or where, it's always the Word.
Was PFAL perfect, maybe not, I don't care, people received deliverance. If people got to the place where they were elevating the "class","people" over the Word, then they were being idolatrous. That is like TWI II worshipping The Bible over the Author.
So what I am again saying is that I learned more about God in the class than I had anywhere else. It was The Word being spoken. As far as plagerism, who owns the Word of God. If I do a teaching from the Word because of GOD's inspiration in my heart to help or bless someone, should I copywrite it? It was God working in me. If that person receives deliverance from what I wrote, should they forward it to help others. Maybe they would work what I send to them and see for themselves and then share it in a different light and send it on. God is still the author of anything that has to do with his Word.
Would any of us here think that Bullinger intended to write anything down that he did not want people to use to enlighten them to the knowledge of Christ? How can you take what a man (inspired by God) shares with you, try it, see results and not want to share it with others. You take the same teaching, see different things and you share what you learned. Since there is only one Word, you will repeat things you have learned but it's still God's Word, not ours when we speak or teach.
I really don't know how to explain it any other way. Plagerism is man's law. I believe in copywrites; however anyone putting together anything from the Word better give the credits to the Author of the Word because God has the copywrite on His Word. We are free to use it to learn from.
So this is my humble opinion and I understand that some may think otherwise and I respect that.
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diazbro
This is incredible. The above paragraph is so "right on" with what WaySpeak is all about. You've convinced me of one thing - that you were in TWI. No one could say those things without a thorough immersion in The Way experience.
Then you are speaking for yourself. If it was "the Word" then there would
be universal acceptance of PFAL as that. But lots of people take different views of PFAL. Some like myself think very dimly of it and how it was accomplished. A rouge preacher booted out of his primary denomination tries to get back on his feet by stealing the works of others and claiming a vision of God ? Sorry
I don't respect that. Furthermore what he stole doesn't represent "god breathed word". Its just something someone wrote.
Again, PFAL is NOT "the word of god". The material was taken from a variety of sources without permission. All of these sources were the works of man. To worhsip them is idolatry just as worshipping VPW is also idolatry. Additionally the so called "LAw of Believeing" doesn't work. It failed the mighty "Teacher" who couldn't "believe enough" to deliver himself from illness. This was at a time when people in the field were dumped on for not having "enough believing" for a large variety of things. Besides if VPW was "The Teacher" then what did he do to let the "adversary" get through that "hedge of protection" and cause cancer ? Guess PFAL didn't help him except to line his pockets with all those "donations" people made to take the class.
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Belle
IF....IF....PFAL was correct, THEN the subject of healings would work with a mathmatical exactness and a scientific precision. It doesn't and not one person can say why with any certainty. You (rhetorical) have absolutely no right and no way of knowing about a person's believing or "whatever" you think is "required" from God for results. It's very personal and a more honest answer, imo, would be "I don't know."
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mj412
When I was in twi, I never was ministered to. that I know of anyway, no one used that word.
The CES and spirit and truth group speak a great deal about ministring ? how do ya even spell that? to one another, John Lynn said that is why he quit . so he could more time ministering to God people.
I do not know what ministering even is.
can someone tell me? Is it not prayer?
Oak I think every parent would exhuast what ever resource well maybe not everyone but most. I hada good friend in High school lose his twin sister because his parents refused to allow a blood transfusion after a bad car accident. they were jehova witness's.
but most christians do seek help with illness or injury, from professionals .
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lindyhopper
AMEN to that, sista!
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justloafing
JAL Needs to get over himself. He aint all that, never was. He is in all this to be seen and heard no matter how he feels. He wants to teach he will yell about it. He wants to be left alone you will hear about it by him. JAL is an attention getter that is all he is. A huge FLOP of an ego.
Sorry back to the subject.
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outofdafog
You know sometimes I think this thread could be merged with "the voice of God". I think that instantaneous healing that some have experienced is that "still small voice" that speaks to your heart and to your heart only.
E.W. Kenyons writings had a profound effect on me. Especially "Jesus the Healer". I believe that was the name of the book. The reality of what Jesus truly suffered is beyond us I think. I believe the crucifixtion was more than just a "crown of thorns" with blood droplets oozing down the face. If Jesus, suffered for all of us, and had to experience "all of our sins" and "disbelief" then the hatred of the devil would have to be enormous, and the physical suffering had to be more than just a picture hanging on your living room wall with droplets of blood on his forehead. He had to take the "whole" sin of humanity and bear it for us. This is truly awesome if you think about it. And ugly. I got pretty nauseated during Mel Gibson's film, "The Passion of the Christ". I had to turn away, and I believe with all my heart that Jesus truly suffered multiple times more than the film depicted. In order to take the whole of humanity's sin, it must have been pure hatred on the part of those who partook in his beatings and tauntings.
I do not pretend to understand it all, but in my own personal life, in the depth of my heart, God performed a miracle for me.
Life is a journey, not every path will be rose petaled, but it is a truly wonderful learning experience, if you can look at it that way. I do believe we each decide our own destinations by our thoughts (call it believing or whatever), but even the bible says that what you truly believe in your heart, you will receive or become (however you want to translate it).
...as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.....
Tom I believe that you saw his suffering in your hour of need.
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Tom
mj, I'm not sure why you have brought up that term here - has anyone used the word on this thread? I missed it, if so.
A minister in the context of this thread is a person who attends to the wants and needs of others serving as an agent for Jesus Christ. First he receives from Jesus Christ things that Jesus has for people, then he gives those things to people as an agent for Jesus Christ. He ministers the things of Jesus Christ to people.
More specifically, in the case of healing, he ministers (serves to people) the healing that Jesus Christ gives to him for them. I know it can seem egotistical to say that, but it is really the most humbling thing I know of. An example is where Peter said, "Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Peter had it to give to the lame man. Where did he get it to give - from Jesus Christ. And in his name - acting for Jesus Christ with the things of Jesus Christ in hand, ie. healing - he gave it.
Freely you have received; freely give.
It's big, I know - but there are no specially favoured people here. It is for us all - we've just underestimated what Jesus accomplished.
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mj412
I brought it up because I figured some of you would know the answer .
so as I thought but never had anyone tell me, I never asked before.
When a person ministers to another they play like a mini jesus now, not a mog not a believer a mini jesus who can do the works He did. how very inflating. well not me. I rather believe because of falling on knees for a few years at His humble grace myself.
just a different perspective I guess.
. I can pray for a person and if it is Gods will it will be done. As far as dictacted what and who gets healed it isnt in my head or thought or hands to do such.
that is one of the last conversation I had before getting marked I was told andI quote" JUST TELL GOD" blah blah I realized then it was the man I was talking to who thought he was calling the shots for God.
I just do not agree with it.
My response was I can ask in the name of Jesus christ, but I do not tell God to do anything for me.
with the number of divorces and etc. in twi I aint so sure it is working according to the plan anyway.
whatever floats your boat. I hope nothing bad never happens.
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krys
Why is it so hard for some to believe that they can, indeed do the works Jesus did? Obviously if you don't believe you can, then you absolutely won't.
I find this idea totally appauling. This is one of the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard about my lord Jesus Christ.
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LornaDoone
Great insight Krys, now maybe this thread will go away.
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Shellon
amen sisters
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outofdafog
That's rather an odd thing to say ladies. Maybe you should just "go away" from the thread if you don't care for what is being discussed. Lots of people have shared alot of their heart here, hardly a nice thing to do to just dismiss them.....
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Tom
I wouldn't take that remark so personally, krys. I'm guessing by the rest of your post that your Jesus is the same as my Jesus. If so, then mj's remark wasn't really made about your Jesus or my Jesus. I know mj keeps confusing my Jesus with the Jesus of TWI. Then, of course, there is mj's Jesus. It can get pretty confusing.
I can understand her confusion. VPW kicked Jesus out of his position as head of the body and took his place - well, not really, but within the confines (yes, "confines" is a good word) of his "revelation" of the hierarchal Way Tree structure of TWI when he tried to incorporate the body of Christ. And he took the place of Christ - as did all his leadership by proxy (proxy: the authorization to act for another - the other no longer being the Lord Jesus Christ, but now Wierwille). The organic body of Christ was thus replaced - again only within the confines of TWI - with a mechanical model, The Way Tree. It had a form of godliness, but, more and more, it denied the power thereof.
This was not the Jesus of the bible. To her credit, mj rejected this counterfeit Jesus, turning back to the best thing she knew no doubt. Thereby, she fulfilled the prophecy in Galatians 1:6-8, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
"...let him be accursed." That's exactly what mj did, and I applaud her for that.
This "other Jesus" that was preached in TWI is the spirit of antichrist in action. Its purpose is to primarily keep people from the true Jesus Christ. This it accomplished very effectively within the pressure cooker of TWI. I don't know about anyone else here, but most of what I learned about the accomplishments of the true Jesus Christ, I learned in the days before the "way" was incorporated back in '72. Jesus Christ was very much in our minds, hearts, speech, songs, and actions. This got snuffed out little by little as the leaven of legalism moved throughout TWI. An actual relationship with a living Jesus Christ was forbidden more and more and holy spirit, rather than a seed opening to a living, spiritually alive brotherhood, became a freaky battery pack to be operated at will - as mj indicated.
I dont know about others, but it wasn't until years after I left TWI that all that cover of the spirit of antichrist fell away as I listened to the words of a song by a brother in Christ with a vital relationship with the things of Jesus Christ going on in his life. The realization came flooding in - this is the Jesus that I knew, the one I've been ripped off from by TWI for years. Its been growing ever since.
Everybody's experience is different. Were it not for some of what the believers taught me in the early days of TWI before its incorporation, the only thing I would have to revert back to would be my Catholic upbringing - something similar to mj.
So, I dont care that she can't hear me or won't. Maybe she will. If not, so what? Sure, I'd appreciate it if she would stop confusing my Jesus with the oppressive monster that used TWI as a springboard to hurt God's people, but meanwhile I enjoy the opportunity to jack that monster around on a multitude of points he has used to misdirect a lot of people for a lot of years on a thread that at this point has been viewed 1,224 times. More than that, I enjoy glorifying the true Jesus Christ.
Peter used the accusation that the apostles, speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost, were drunk, as a springboard to launch one of the most inspired teachings about what the gift of holy spirit is about.
Nice! Something to learn from!
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Tom
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SafariVista
Nice post Thomas~
After reading through, maybe I have no clue who Jesus Christ is...
As a matter of fact~ while reading on a cult page about TWI, most of the 'bad' things they listed that this cult believes, I thought was true.
I must have a lot of re-learning to do.
Enjoying the discussions here.
Thanks to all~
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Tom
Oh, I don't know about "no" clue, SF, but is it really a bad thing to have a lot to learn? I mean even while they were with the living Jesus daily, his own disciples had a hard time figuring out who he was. The "only begotten of the Father" - well it would be redundant to say he was unique. Now that same Jesus has been raised from the dead and made to be the head over all things to his body - us. Wow, what IS that all about?
I don't doubt it, SF. I believe that TWI had a lot of the pieces or at least "talked" about them, but the pieces were all over the water - at least they certainly didn't fit together properly to float the boat.
VPW made the statement that when Jesus was talking about the spirit that was to come, the comforter, that it would testify of Jesus - that it would reveal the glorified Christ to us and if we received the revelation that we would be transformed to be more and more like the glorified Christ. Now THAT would have been something worth spending God's precious time pursuing - our identification with Christ - his ID, our ID, their relationship, what's it all about - instead of spending all that time defending what we should and shouldn't do with our pants down & who should submit themselves to whom in the process.
But the spirit is still here & it still works just fine & one of its functions is still to reveal the glorified Christ & what the body of Christ is all about to us - same way it did to Paul & with the help of its revelation to Paul to compliment its revelation to us.
After all "The Teacher" isn't someone you write to in New Knoxville, OH if you have questions because Jesus said in Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi [master or teacher]: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
The true teacher is still teaching.
John 16 Nevertheless I [Jesus] tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
... He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
"All things," might take a while
:)-->
You confessed him as Lord. He knows everything that he needs to concerning every part of his body of which you are a part. Let him teach you who you are in him. He is really good at it & he has these really cool learning tools. I mean the analogy of holy sprit being a battery in a car waiting for you to step on the gas peddle goes only so far - really. Time to let The Spirit itself bear witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
Okay, I feel myself getting preachy here.
It's a good thing. We love him enough to tap the living water; we get transformed to the image of the glorified Jesus Christ.
Sooner or later,
Tom
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mj412
Krys
following your first sentence along I assume you BELIEVE it was the mother FEAR(the mothers beliving) that killed that little boy her only child and everything HMMM.
ok pfal 101 on the grease spot forum.
I do not believe it was anyone's beliving that killed the little boy, I think it was Satan playing god and doing his job on earth.
I think that mom loved her child, prayed for her child and believed the best she could for her only son as she walked him to school every day. and I think he was murdered.
I believe Jesus christ will raise them both up to live forever with HIM as KING of KING.
I would not want to live in this world if I didnt know I had a Saviour a defense attorny , a best buddy, the love of my life, to promise me one day as Tom said sooner or later, We do not have an enemy that can and does rack and ruin. to put the power of His blood down to the mere fact of a human brain and how it thinks and believes about things is far to frightening for me.
I trust the program.
I know not every person will be healed today or tommorrow or for as long as the Lord does tary and I do not care how many bible verses or years in the way tree they have spentTime in.
this isnt our home, the bible says the situation as it sits will only get worse untill the whole dam thing is blown to hell and burned up.
but believe as you will I hope it is working for ya! sounds nice. as for me and my house WE Serve the LORD jesus christ only, and worship the most high God. and guess what we have problems lots of them with the faith to overcome this place and seek a higher ground of eternity in paradise. but today we have problems and the Lord brings a comforter to show us the way to cope and have peace amid the chaos.
You see I go to funerals of good people, I watch a praying mom's prayer for her hadicapped child hoping and believing things should be different then they happen to be. And still they confess Jesus as Lord, WHY? Because it is about Seeking God first in life and loving one another, not beliving our little brain can handle all this life brings without the LORD>
i wouldnt want you for a friend if something bad ever did happen to me, or if I was ever sick because to be honest I have had many many days and in fact years I cant believe what is going on around me, yet Jesus christ was always with me and NEVER ever forsake me Thank God almighty , He did believe for me when I just cant. That is HIS job and He is done doubting the Power of the Father and it is finished.
amen to that.
but without HIM I am just a scardy cat who really thinks this world is to frightening and big and hurtful on my own "believing".
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