I can attest to one in my life. But I would not be surprised if no one believed it since I was alone at the time and "ministered" to myself.
Actually Keith I find your post to be interesting because its rare that I see this type of post because most tales of healing are related in the third person and beyond. Someone knew somone who got healed of cancer or blindness. Its always so difficult , if not impossible, to verify and many times the person relating the story heard it from somoene else making it even more doubtful.
and TWI cheapened the definition of deliverance and miracles by calling almost anything a "miracle". Your car made it a few extra miles and the fuel guage was empty ? Thats a miracle ! You had a minor sore throat and your WOW brother prayed for you and 3 days later you were healed ? Thats a miracle. Someone gave you $35 to take PFAL. Thats a *Real* miracle ! God delivers..
Seriously if you say your broken bone slipped back in and healed then way to go. You get points in my book for even talking about it and for being one of the few who has reported a significant healing in the first person.
Yeah, I do go on more than that TH. And sometimes I even bring my own table :D-->.
"My comments and questions refer to what was posted" would have more clearly stated what I meant.
I'm now in the position of referring to a post that no longer exists, but I believe my earlier post accurately reflects the information that was given. If there are facts that I am "not privy to", of course my comments and observations will be lacking. I "don't know what happened" because apparently only part of the story was included in the now deleted post. My opinions on the incident can only be incomplete in this case.
Here's my take on healing & miracles, part of my take, anyway:
There is without a doubt things that happen that seem to be unexplainable by our current understanding of the physical laws of the universe. I'm not going to be the one to claim that every story about miracles and healing is a delusion. I really have no problem with the concept of the supernatural being possible: including miraculous healing.
What I have a problem with is ascribing this to God healing people as an answer to prayer, or as just a grace thing (i.e. God healed or did a miracle without being asked, or paryed to about it).
BLASPHEMY!!!!
Why do I have a problem with this? Because it is obvious that despite fervent prayer, not everybody who asks to get healed, gets healed. Not everybody who is in a car accident gets spared serious injury. Bad things happen. This is beyond (IMHO) the "I didn't get my pony" syndrome. What does it take for God to answer a prayer to heal you? No one seems to know for sure. For every story about how God healed someone there are dozens, maybe hundreds or thousands of times when prayer yielded nothing, sometimes for the same person. What's the difference?
Seems to me, that if that's really the way things work, then God is awfully capricious about who he hands out healing to, or else he isn't at all clear on what the prerequisites for healing are.
It seems to me that if there are such things as miraculous healings, then I find it much more plausible that it is "healing energy" or "the law of believing". Why do I find that more plausible? Because when it doesn't work (and nothing seems to work 100% of the time) I find it more believable that a mere human can screw up his manipulation of whatever "healing modality" they are using, or fail to believe or what have you. Much more plausible to me than an omnipotent, omniscient, LOVING FATHER passing me up for healing without any hint of why, while healing the guy next to me, without any indication of why there is a difference ("respect of persons" anyone?
Okay, if you believe that something that happened to you is a miracle, fine with me...I can't argue the facts (although I can argue the interpretation of those facts)...I just don't get it why God would behave the way he does.
I'll have to forward this thread to J**. It seems like I do remember in some basic part of my being that you visited me. That basic part of my being thanks you :)-->
I was sort of like a baby in those days, sort of rewiring the whole neural network from scratch in a lot of ways. I'm sure it meant a lot that you visited me. I remember J**'s doctor called me up once and said that J** didn't really believe that I was alive, and that she wouldn't make it unless she saw me, and he asked me to come to see her. I pleaded with my doctor, but he wouldn't let me get out of bed for anything. I asked my nurse what would happen if I tried to get out of bed, and she said I would fall down. When she left the room, I sat up in bed for a while, then put my feet on the floor. It took me a long time before I could stand up without holding onto the bed. If I picked my feet up, it hurt too much to put them back down on the floor, so I sort of shuffled over to the bathroom. That was a shocker. I had a face by that time and I could see again, but Frankenstein was definitly handsome by comparison. I looked at my self for about two hours trying to imagine some way my head could heal into something that looked halfway normal, but there was no way. After we got out, somebody had some pictures of me from the beginning. Do you remember who that was? Anyway, when I got out to the hallway, the nurse came by in a wheelchair & took me to see J**.
It meant a lot to know each other was okay. Thanks again for visiting me. I remember when I started suspecting something about D***. I forced an answer out of JJ & H***, and I just started crying. I'm glad they told me some of the other circumstances involved. I wouldn't have handled it otherwise. I don't think I've quite "handled it" as it is. I just think of God and know he wants me to live. Sometimes I think of the apostle Paul. I know it is not the same, but I think of how he went on to live for God, but it is like I don't quite understand it emotionally.
I don't know if I said this last time we were communicating or not, but... Words seem to be of insufficient value. I'm sorry, J****, that I screwed up that day.
Thank you all for sharing. I do believe that supernatural things like this take place. I think that we don't really know what "the formula" is for them happening. TWI likes to purport that they do, but they don't otherwise there would be a much higher incidence of these things happening.
I remember craig bragging that we had someone cured of AIDS in TWI, but it was only mentioned a couple of times and when we asked for more details we were put off with bland, vague answers. Seems no one could verify it....
I know that I had a terrible migraine once before fellowship (remember when they would say you would be better off coming to fellowship instead of staying home and taking care of your health?). My HFC prayed for me and within minutes the unbearable pain was completely gone. This HFC prayed for my ex about a few things and he was healed. He was the first person we went to when there was a health problem because he did get results consistently when he prayed for someone's health. I miss him and his wife. :(--> But they will be in TWI till the very end even though they know a lot of the wrong that goes on and despite all the hurt TWI has caused in their lives.
Jesus told people to pray that the kingdom of God would come, and that God's will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. But after he gave "power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases" to the disciples, he didn't tell them to pray that God's kingdom would come; he told them to tell people "the kingdom of God is come near unto you." And he didn't tell them to pray for the sick; he told them to heal. Freely you have received; freely give.
I don't remember Jesus Christ ever praying for sick people. The told them the kingdom was at hand and healed them.
I think if we preach the immediacy of the kingdom of God, and people believe that, they can get healed.
Don't get me wrong, I believe we are supposed to pray for one another, and I have nothing but thanksgiving for all those who prayed for us, but I think that basically we are praying that God enlighten the eyes of people's understanding as to the immediacy of the kingdom. Then God's will for our healing will be done on earth as God's will is done in heaven.
Coolchef where did you go and why did you start this thread. I would say most people in TWI saw miracles, although they were not just because we were in TWI.
I have seen miracles & healings all my life before and more after TWI. The Word of God is still the Will of God and God says he will heal all our diseases.
So, hope this helps you and I am believing for you to see big ones.
Oak you are doing a terrible job of trying to get back in the club. ;)-->
Actually I agree with much of what you said, except that I don't believe that supernatural things happen. I don't deny that they may happen, but I don't know enough to believe that they do. I feel that to be even relatively certain that supernatural things occure I would need to know everything there is to know of the natural world. Believe me, I am FAR from that. So when I see or hear these things happening I view it plainly as something that I don't understand. Then I rule out the possible natural things that I do or could know with some reading and thinking. I don't assume. I'm not saying anyone here does, but I know people, at times, do. Perhaps you know or feel something that you are sure of but for some reason can't explain and I can't deny or confirm that.
I can say that I am very excited and happy when people are healed by explainable or unexplainable means. They both fascinate me but I must say the unexplainable ones do have a certain allure.
I don't know if I said this last time we were communicating or not, but... Words seem to be of insufficient value. I'm sorry, J****, that I screwed up that day.
That is why I was really torn about posting the story (but felt I needed to). I never wanted you to suffer any more than you already have or bring back such memories that would hurt you again. You have always been forgiven in my book and in my heart. But thanks for saying that, it does mean alot to me.
I struggled to put it all into context with my Waybrain for years. You know believing = receiving, that kind of stuff. Sometimes now I just see four kinda crazy young people, setting out to celebrate a couple birthdays.
Originally when I posted the story, the whole point was that before we hit that grove of trees, God truly spoke to me (I will never believe otherwise). I didn't say he spoke out loud. (This would be good for the thread on what does God's voice sound like). He told me in my heart to LEAN BACK and DO NOT BE AFRAID. He told me that I was NOT GOING TO DIE. I was totally flooded with peace in that second and not one iota of fear in my body. And then boom....
I don't know why, and I was never trying to imply that God chose me over the others to not get hurt. But maybe God needed one of us to be in good enough shape to help the others. The second miraculous thing, was that I was standing on my feet. That was my first concious thought. How did I land standing up after being thrown so far from the vehicle?
thank you all for posting. i also have seen miricals and sometimes i think i depend on them! i was just wondering if anyone has seen bogus ones lioke i did
"Someone gave you $35 to take PFAL. Thats a *Real* miracle ! God delivers.."
Interesting, I love it. I guess God was into PFAL huh! I would not trade what I learned in PFAL about God for anything. It worked then and still does. These healing attest to the power of GOD that we learned about in PFAL. Plagerism? Interesting that God didn't seem to care about that, only that His Word was being made known.
Tom Heller, you are a trooper and you brought to pass the power of God in your life. I believe we do the healing, just like God did the healings buy the hand of Paul. We have the right to heal and it's an awesome privledge. Just how God backed up all that he was to do with all the right people that he put into your life at TWI and beyond.
God is always amazing and I pray Tom that all your tomorrows will be rainbows.
That is why I was really torn about posting the story (but felt I needed to). I never wanted you to suffer any more than you already have or bring back such memories that would hurt you again. You have always been forgiven in my book and in my heart. But thanks for saying that, it does mean alot to me.
No problem, J****. As a matter of fact it's good, part of the healing - thanks.
quote:
I struggled to put it all into context with my Waybrain for years. You know believing = receiving
Yeah, I do know, and I have to say that I still look at it that way - not in the way that it came to be perverted into one person being more or less of a person because of his/her believing, but still what happened to each of us at the time & afterwards...it's hard not to see what happened in a causal relationship to our believing mindsets. J** & I spoke afterwards about specifically what happened to us individually.
quote:
Sometimes now I just see four kinda crazy young people
No doubt.
Speaking of J**, I sent her the two pages of this thread & got this back:
quote:
Well, here's something you can post from "J".
Personally, TWI taught me many good things about life and many not so good things about life and I don't pretend to know all there is to know about God or the Word of God, but I do know this, we are today where our believing takes us and we will be tomorrow where it takes us. As for me, I have moved beyond trying to figure out and conjure up what I believe as far as truth or lies taught to me by TWI and I am once again a student of God's love. Healing is NOT definable when it occurs on multi-dimensional levels, physical being the least of it, as we in our 40's and 50's should have figured out by now. Whether anyone recognizes or believes or not in God's healing and mercy they receive "the rain". So on the subject I say, instead of analyzing what "happened" why not live in the present and look for the everyday occurences of "miracles" right in your own back yard, cause it's kinda like having a beautiful rose garden out back that you never go sit in now isn't it? God is, was and will continue to remain an individual God and doesn't count on TWI teachings to prevail in the hearts and minds of his children, never did and never will, I mean after all, he's not the American Idol winner, he's G.O.D.
Peace...
And this:
quote:
Also, tell J****y I still love her and she definitely saved my life that night with her calm mind and her energy.. and for that I will be eternally grateful.
quote:
Tom Heller, you are a trooper and you brought to pass the power of God in your life. I believe we do the healing, just like God did the healings buy the hand of Paul. We have the right to heal and it's an awesome privledge. Just how God backed up all that he was to do with all the right people that he put into your life at TWI and beyond.
Thanks Lorna, I'll take the trooper part as a high compliment - I suppose if I took the screw up appellation upon myself, it's only fair I take the trooper one.
I have somewhat of a problem with the idea of bringing to pass the power of God in my life though. It may be literally quite true, but I'm just talking here, right? Trying to communicate. To my mind, the idea that I bring to pass the power of God in my life carries a somewhat godlike quality with it. No, that doesn't communicate...I have no problem with the idea of owning up to godlike qualities, but it seems to carry with it a quality that should be reserved only to God. I absolutely believe that we do the healing and that we have the awesome privilege to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are not the first agents involved, God is. Like Jesus did, we see the Father work and we work, and we can do nothing without him.
Also, despite (or perhaps in clarification of) what I said about ministering and prayer above, I know that the gifts of healings that occurred rode on a great wave of the believing prayers of thousands.
I have had the opportunity lately at work to minister healing to two people with Cancer with great relults. Cancer is bad enough, but one had it spread throughout his system. Many were praying for these two people, and they were trying many types of "alternative" (what a stupid term - perhaps natural would be better) healing modalities, but I knew how to simply walk with the Father and minister healing. In the most serious case, I was very cognizant of the believing prayers of people being involved spiritually in what I was doing and thankful for it. But I knew the difference. And you're right, it is an awesome privilege to be able to serve in this way. Other believers at work had said that I needed to open my mouth and declare these truths concerning the power that God has given to men - and so lately I am. I feel like I'm coming out of the closet or something like that. And I'm diggin it.
Oh, while I'm at it...
quote:
i was just wondering if anyone has seen bogus ones lioke i did
I was thinking "no" when I first read your question, but then I remembered a young woman in my fellowship that had a teacher in community college who was practiced in the occult arts. On day after fellowship, she asked me to minister to her, and as I started to, I immediately sensed a spirit in her back and knew her teacher had placed it there. I asked her if she had allowed her college teacher to practice his "healing" arts on her. She said that she had a headache in class and he massaged her and the headache went away. I told her he got rid of the headache by putting a spirit in her back.
I don't know it that qualifies as "seeing" bogus miracles or not.
I had a conversation with my son about this, and it ended quickly .
Maybe some of you have the answer I should have come up with cause Im still quite silent on this.
I told my son God can heal you.
he looked at me and said "ma with all the innocent litle children dying of cancer and horrible accidents why would God chose to heal me and not them?"
Why would God heal me and leave out everyone eles who needs him to heal them?
if you can answer these questions and make sense other than "Gods will be done" I do not believe God wants any person to suffer or be hurt. I do believe God can and does heal peple.
but why not everyone? is someone more deserving? more sinfull ? what? Is it by grace and His love or by the luck of the draw?
this is a sad subject to me, I know people will say it is satan, ok ok it is satan why would God save some and not others ? satan or not?
I was silent as I looked at my deep son and his point well taken, and I still quietly ask inside me the same why would that be?
claim all the bible verses you may chose , it doesnt change the fact the tiny son of mine deserved to get well no more or less than the next mom's son.
God doesn't decide to heal or not to heal. God gives the power to heal to people. God is not the variable in this question; people are. God's will is constant; he wishes more than anything else for people to be healed.
Before Jesus' disciples were given the power to heal, Jesus told people to pray for the kingdom of God to come so that God's will may be done on earth as it is in heaven. The reason more people weren't being healed before that prayer was prayed is because the kingdom of God hadn't come - except, of course, in the person of Jesus Christ who was doing a lot of healing at the time.
After Jesus gave the disciples the power to heal, he gave them directions on how to bring that power to bear. No more were they told to pray that the kingdom of God should come for now the disciples had the kingdom of God within. Now the will of God (to heal) could be done just as his will is done in heaven. They were to tell others that the kingdom of God was near to them (for it was in the disciples). The disciples were at peace with God and that was their message. They were to heal those who received the peace of their words.
Those are the variables now. First, like the disciples, we have to believe that we, not God, have the power to heal because where we are, there is the kingdom of God for it is within us. Second, we need to tell people so - not that God can heal them, but that we can because the kingdom of God is within us. Third, people need to believe the word that we tell them about the presence of God within and the ability for people to heal - and believing, desire it enough to come & get it.
In other words:
1. Freely we receive.
2. Freely we give.
3. Freely they receive.
Those are the variables as far as I see it.
Matthew 9:8 Â But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
I guess that sounds nice. I don't think I have ever heard that, except for the fact that it comes back to your believing which I don't believe to be true, but hey, if it works for you then great.
It also sounds a little inefficient. Suffering, sickness, and death happens gloabally 24/7. There are far more incidents than there are Christians there to save the day. It is not the way I would plan it, but maybe I feel for people a little too much. It just doesn't seem fair. I know life isn't fair, but supposedly God is and just. I don't know anything fair or just about innocent little children dying of cancer, SIDs, or listeria because mom didn't know not to eat cold cuts while pregnant, or anything else, just because there wasn't an informed Christian around waiting in the wings to proclaim the Kingdom of God is nearby.
I know that I know that I know that I don't know everything. There could be a God and he could have his reasons, but I can't help but feel a little out of the loop and upset about it. Cause from my perspective, it doesn't make sense, isn't fair, and isn't just. All I or anyone else are left with is suffering and dispair. There is hope, of course, but it is my experience that hope doesn't heal wounds nor does it confirm a belief. It is just a decided refocusing of ones attention in order to move on with life.
ehank you all who have posted to this thread. you have helped my eyes open to so many things. now have many more questions oh well another day again thanks
I do not think God needs anyone or thing to complete His reality of being God.
Ask lucifer how far that thought got him . What God made needs HIM not the other way around . where is HE helpless without our meager tasks of some performance magic Hee bestows on those He picks and choses.
The mule who complained aout being kicked to hard must have had a mighty job to do huh?
nah all of that is magic thining that feeds a ego planted in the brain by bible verses gone heady and far far to intellectual.
I am like God and all powerful.
God is ALMIGHTY I do not believe He reigns on the whim of whether or not an individual may or may NOT think about, which child just doesnt get the believing enough? and deserves to die today? Or which parent must wear the burden of guilt you apply to their own prayer that didnt work ?
"I have somewhat of a problem with the idea of bringing to pass the power of God in my life though. It may be literally quite true, but I'm just talking here, right? Trying to communicate. To my mind, the idea that I bring to pass the power of God in my life carries a somewhat godlike quality with it. No, that doesn't communicate...I have no problem with the idea of owning up to godlike qualities, but it seems to carry with it a quality that should be reserved only to God. I absolutely believe that we do the healing and that we have the awesome privilege to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are not the first agents involved, God is. Like Jesus did, we see the Father work and we work, and we can do nothing without him."
I believe from what I have learned and seen over the years that this is not an EGO type of thing where "I" do the healing, but "I" bring to pass the power of God in my life and that of those around me. This is an awesome priviledge, one that comes with responsibility. Yes people pray and make intercession, that too is not ego but a priviledge. I do not count this the same as Lucifer taking it upon himself to think he was something great. This is something that God commanded us to do. "(you) Heal the sick, (you)cleanse the lepers, freely you have received, (you) freely give"
I don't think Jesus thought it was ego to have God in him and now we have God in Christ in us. That is the enablement that give us the right and authority to (we) bring to pass God's will (beloved I wish above all things that tho mayest prosper and be in health...)for those that we minister to.
The "ego" part would come in, ie. (LCM) where one falls into the "pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall". Then I would have to agree with you but we are to guard our hearts against such "spiritual invasion" of our minds.
It was ultimately your believing that God would work in your situation that you took a stand, even to the point of believing in someone like Dr. W. to guide you in the right direction to receive your healing and you did. God ultimates always gets the glory.
From TWI's website, this is their stand on healing:
"To claim and manifest God's healing, we believe on the positives of His Word, not the negatives of the world. When we become immersed in the Word and start living according to God's promises, we find that He is able to bring us health and peace."
You have to be good and "live according to his pomises", nevermind the unconditional love He has for us or the fact that God is merciful and heals us when we least expect or deserve it at times.
we find that He is able to bring us health and peace
Wowser. I would say that that little sentence passed over the desk of at least a half a dozen lawyers. Note, no guarantees given- jump through the hoops, soak yourself in enough TWI positiveness (brine), and miraculously, a person will finally find that God is "able to bring us health and peace".
What it is NOT saying is quite enlightening. It does not say "and God will heal you". Typical Way double-talk. "Well, we didn't actually tell you that you'd get healed.."
I wonder what their definition of "negatives of the world" is. Probably expensive, "devilish" medicine..
MJ, this may not help a lot, but I have some of the same questions you do.. I am not entirely satisfied with many of the reasons people give for why people don't receive healing. I think I am finally at ease with the idea that I may just plain old never know why. Sometimes that is the best answer you can give somebody..
Please let me clarify. I absolutely agree with what you're saying. I just felt that I had to clarify that we don't have the option to heal any ole time we feel like it because we still, like Jesus did, see the Father work and we work, and we still can do nothing without him.
I just had to clarify who the prime mover is in all this - to keep the ego out. Which I did. As did you - admirably.
When people marvel that God has given such power to people, God gets the glory - again, Matthew 9:8 above.
When God has not empowered people - because HE IS ALL POWERFUL, then people are powerless. It seems to be humbly ascribing all power to God, but it also ascribes all sickness to God - or it just leaves us without answers. Hmm, okay, let me see - either God sucks or umm I don't know what else it could be.
Aah, I'd rather see healing. Really, I promise that God will get the glory - like WAY more glory than if people don't get healed.
quote:
It was ultimately your believing that God would work in your situation that you took a stand, even to the point of believing in someone like Dr. W. to guide you in the right direction to receive your healing and you did. God ultimately always gets the glory.
Ah, um, well, yeah - you said a lot there and as I look at it, ah, um, well, yeah - you're absolutely right, Lorna. Thanks a lot for pointing those things out - you've put it together, thanks for speaking up.
Wayward,
quote:
You have to be good and "live according to his pomises", nevermind the unconditional love He has for us or the fact that God is merciful and heals us when we least expect or deserve it at times.
Every time we are sick, it is NOT because we are not good or not "living according to his promises."
But every time we are healed, it IS God's mercy acting in our lives. Mercy is free and cheerful whether it is your dang fault or not. WOW!
Believing for beautiful things that God gives doesn't suck - even if people feel guilty that they can't appreciate the beauty of a flower, that doesn't make the flower ugly. it is not about ego; it is about...
Ephesians 1:17 Â ...the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 Â The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know...
...what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead...
There is no face – born of ego – that can be maintained in the face of him who had his face torn beyond recognition so that we could go beyond our pretensions, and, finally, be healed. I think that is the Word, & if people believe it, they will be healed.
It may take some thinking, but it is not overly intellectual in the least.
"Someone gave you $35 to take PFAL. Thats a *Real* miracle ! God delivers.."
Interesting, I love it. I guess God was into PFAL huh! I would not trade what I learned in PFAL about God for anything. It worked then and still does. These healing attest to the power of GOD that we learned about in PFAL. Plagerism? Interesting that God didn't seem to care about that, only that His Word was being made known.
Err Lorna I think you misunderstood my comments. My quote of:
quote:
"Someone gave you $35 to take PFAL. Thats a *Real* miracle ! God delivers.."
was entirely sarcastic. Hawkers of PFAL used to routinely call any last minute student signups as "miracles of god". Many Way people cheapened the meaning of the word miracle by proclaiming normal things as miracles. Please re read my post to see what I meant by that. I find nothing in PFAL to be indicative of God's particular blessing on VPW, TWI, or any one who took it. If someone derived goodness from it then thats their choice. I think it was assembled from a varity of sources most of whom were people who were not contacted for their permission.
I think God very much cares about things like plagiarism and people getting their due credit. VPW felt that it was okay to steal ? I don't. Additionally, I don't even think all that was taught in PFAL (stolen or not) was necessarily "Right On" so its not like, for me, that PFAL even contains the so called "god breathed word" or some such substitute. It was a shoddily assembled seminar series put together by a man who was desperate for academic credibility and the adulation of people.
HAving said all this I think that the power of healing can "manifest" though it certainly does not need TWI or any of its adherents to occur. TWI always wanted to *own* the concept of healing and deliverance as if it was only "available" through them. Thats was and is a lie.
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Actually Keith I find your post to be interesting because its rare that I see this type of post because most tales of healing are related in the third person and beyond. Someone knew somone who got healed of cancer or blindness. Its always so difficult , if not impossible, to verify and many times the person relating the story heard it from somoene else making it even more doubtful.
and TWI cheapened the definition of deliverance and miracles by calling almost anything a "miracle". Your car made it a few extra miles and the fuel guage was empty ? Thats a miracle ! You had a minor sore throat and your WOW brother prayed for you and 3 days later you were healed ? Thats a miracle. Someone gave you $35 to take PFAL. Thats a *Real* miracle ! God delivers..
Seriously if you say your broken bone slipped back in and healed then way to go. You get points in my book for even talking about it and for being one of the few who has reported a significant healing in the first person.
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oldiesman
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Tom
Surely you go on more than that. Have you brought nothing to the table?
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Oakspear
Yeah, I do go on more than that TH. And sometimes I even bring my own table
:D-->.
"My comments and questions refer to what was posted" would have more clearly stated what I meant.
I'm now in the position of referring to a post that no longer exists, but I believe my earlier post accurately reflects the information that was given. If there are facts that I am "not privy to", of course my comments and observations will be lacking. I "don't know what happened" because apparently only part of the story was included in the now deleted post. My opinions on the incident can only be incomplete in this case.
Here's my take on healing & miracles, part of my take, anyway:
There is without a doubt things that happen that seem to be unexplainable by our current understanding of the physical laws of the universe. I'm not going to be the one to claim that every story about miracles and healing is a delusion. I really have no problem with the concept of the supernatural being possible: including miraculous healing.
What I have a problem with is ascribing this to God healing people as an answer to prayer, or as just a grace thing (i.e. God healed or did a miracle without being asked, or paryed to about it).
BLASPHEMY!!!!
Why do I have a problem with this? Because it is obvious that despite fervent prayer, not everybody who asks to get healed, gets healed. Not everybody who is in a car accident gets spared serious injury. Bad things happen. This is beyond (IMHO) the "I didn't get my pony" syndrome. What does it take for God to answer a prayer to heal you? No one seems to know for sure. For every story about how God healed someone there are dozens, maybe hundreds or thousands of times when prayer yielded nothing, sometimes for the same person. What's the difference?
Seems to me, that if that's really the way things work, then God is awfully capricious about who he hands out healing to, or else he isn't at all clear on what the prerequisites for healing are.
It seems to me that if there are such things as miraculous healings, then I find it much more plausible that it is "healing energy" or "the law of believing". Why do I find that more plausible? Because when it doesn't work (and nothing seems to work 100% of the time) I find it more believable that a mere human can screw up his manipulation of whatever "healing modality" they are using, or fail to believe or what have you. Much more plausible to me than an omnipotent, omniscient, LOVING FATHER passing me up for healing without any hint of why, while healing the guy next to me, without any indication of why there is a difference ("respect of persons" anyone?
Okay, if you believe that something that happened to you is a miracle, fine with me...I can't argue the facts (although I can argue the interpretation of those facts)...I just don't get it why God would behave the way he does.
That's all for now...laundry beckons
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Tom
There you go, Oak; well said. And I agree basically with everything you just posted.
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Tom
Hi J****,
I'll have to forward this thread to J**. It seems like I do remember in some basic part of my being that you visited me. That basic part of my being thanks you
:)-->
I was sort of like a baby in those days, sort of rewiring the whole neural network from scratch in a lot of ways. I'm sure it meant a lot that you visited me. I remember J**'s doctor called me up once and said that J** didn't really believe that I was alive, and that she wouldn't make it unless she saw me, and he asked me to come to see her. I pleaded with my doctor, but he wouldn't let me get out of bed for anything. I asked my nurse what would happen if I tried to get out of bed, and she said I would fall down. When she left the room, I sat up in bed for a while, then put my feet on the floor. It took me a long time before I could stand up without holding onto the bed. If I picked my feet up, it hurt too much to put them back down on the floor, so I sort of shuffled over to the bathroom. That was a shocker. I had a face by that time and I could see again, but Frankenstein was definitly handsome by comparison. I looked at my self for about two hours trying to imagine some way my head could heal into something that looked halfway normal, but there was no way. After we got out, somebody had some pictures of me from the beginning. Do you remember who that was? Anyway, when I got out to the hallway, the nurse came by in a wheelchair & took me to see J**.
It meant a lot to know each other was okay. Thanks again for visiting me. I remember when I started suspecting something about D***. I forced an answer out of JJ & H***, and I just started crying. I'm glad they told me some of the other circumstances involved. I wouldn't have handled it otherwise. I don't think I've quite "handled it" as it is. I just think of God and know he wants me to live. Sometimes I think of the apostle Paul. I know it is not the same, but I think of how he went on to live for God, but it is like I don't quite understand it emotionally.
I don't know if I said this last time we were communicating or not, but... Words seem to be of insufficient value. I'm sorry, J****, that I screwed up that day.
Love you, honey.
Tom
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Belle
I'm speechless.
Thank you all for sharing. I do believe that supernatural things like this take place. I think that we don't really know what "the formula" is for them happening. TWI likes to purport that they do, but they don't otherwise there would be a much higher incidence of these things happening.
I remember craig bragging that we had someone cured of AIDS in TWI, but it was only mentioned a couple of times and when we asked for more details we were put off with bland, vague answers. Seems no one could verify it....
I know that I had a terrible migraine once before fellowship (remember when they would say you would be better off coming to fellowship instead of staying home and taking care of your health?). My HFC prayed for me and within minutes the unbearable pain was completely gone. This HFC prayed for my ex about a few things and he was healed. He was the first person we went to when there was a health problem because he did get results consistently when he prayed for someone's health. I miss him and his wife.
:(--> But they will be in TWI till the very end even though they know a lot of the wrong that goes on and despite all the hurt TWI has caused in their lives.
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Tom
Jesus told people to pray that the kingdom of God would come, and that God's will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. But after he gave "power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases" to the disciples, he didn't tell them to pray that God's kingdom would come; he told them to tell people "the kingdom of God is come near unto you." And he didn't tell them to pray for the sick; he told them to heal. Freely you have received; freely give.
I don't remember Jesus Christ ever praying for sick people. The told them the kingdom was at hand and healed them.
I think if we preach the immediacy of the kingdom of God, and people believe that, they can get healed.
Don't get me wrong, I believe we are supposed to pray for one another, and I have nothing but thanksgiving for all those who prayed for us, but I think that basically we are praying that God enlighten the eyes of people's understanding as to the immediacy of the kingdom. Then God's will for our healing will be done on earth as God's will is done in heaven.
Tom
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LornaDoone
Coolchef where did you go and why did you start this thread. I would say most people in TWI saw miracles, although they were not just because we were in TWI.
I have seen miracles & healings all my life before and more after TWI. The Word of God is still the Will of God and God says he will heal all our diseases.
So, hope this helps you and I am believing for you to see big ones.
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lindyhopper
Oak you are doing a terrible job of trying to get back in the club.
;)-->
Actually I agree with much of what you said, except that I don't believe that supernatural things happen. I don't deny that they may happen, but I don't know enough to believe that they do. I feel that to be even relatively certain that supernatural things occure I would need to know everything there is to know of the natural world. Believe me, I am FAR from that. So when I see or hear these things happening I view it plainly as something that I don't understand. Then I rule out the possible natural things that I do or could know with some reading and thinking. I don't assume. I'm not saying anyone here does, but I know people, at times, do. Perhaps you know or feel something that you are sure of but for some reason can't explain and I can't deny or confirm that.
I can say that I am very excited and happy when people are healed by explainable or unexplainable means. They both fascinate me but I must say the unexplainable ones do have a certain allure.
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outofdafog
That is why I was really torn about posting the story (but felt I needed to). I never wanted you to suffer any more than you already have or bring back such memories that would hurt you again. You have always been forgiven in my book and in my heart. But thanks for saying that, it does mean alot to me.
I struggled to put it all into context with my Waybrain for years. You know believing = receiving, that kind of stuff. Sometimes now I just see four kinda crazy young people, setting out to celebrate a couple birthdays.
Originally when I posted the story, the whole point was that before we hit that grove of trees, God truly spoke to me (I will never believe otherwise). I didn't say he spoke out loud. (This would be good for the thread on what does God's voice sound like). He told me in my heart to LEAN BACK and DO NOT BE AFRAID. He told me that I was NOT GOING TO DIE. I was totally flooded with peace in that second and not one iota of fear in my body. And then boom....
I don't know why, and I was never trying to imply that God chose me over the others to not get hurt. But maybe God needed one of us to be in good enough shape to help the others. The second miraculous thing, was that I was standing on my feet. That was my first concious thought. How did I land standing up after being thrown so far from the vehicle?
Things that make you go hmmmmmm.......
Love you guy.....
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
thank you all for posting. i also have seen miricals and sometimes i think i depend on them! i was just wondering if anyone has seen bogus ones lioke i did
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LornaDoone
Diazbro:
"Someone gave you $35 to take PFAL. Thats a *Real* miracle ! God delivers.."
Interesting, I love it. I guess God was into PFAL huh! I would not trade what I learned in PFAL about God for anything. It worked then and still does. These healing attest to the power of GOD that we learned about in PFAL. Plagerism? Interesting that God didn't seem to care about that, only that His Word was being made known.
Tom Heller, you are a trooper and you brought to pass the power of God in your life. I believe we do the healing, just like God did the healings buy the hand of Paul. We have the right to heal and it's an awesome privledge. Just how God backed up all that he was to do with all the right people that he put into your life at TWI and beyond.
God is always amazing and I pray Tom that all your tomorrows will be rainbows.
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Tom
No problem, J****. As a matter of fact it's good, part of the healing - thanks.
Yeah, I do know, and I have to say that I still look at it that way - not in the way that it came to be perverted into one person being more or less of a person because of his/her believing, but still what happened to each of us at the time & afterwards...it's hard not to see what happened in a causal relationship to our believing mindsets. J** & I spoke afterwards about specifically what happened to us individually.
No doubt.Speaking of J**, I sent her the two pages of this thread & got this back:
And this:
Thanks Lorna, I'll take the trooper part as a high compliment - I suppose if I took the screw up appellation upon myself, it's only fair I take the trooper one.
I have somewhat of a problem with the idea of bringing to pass the power of God in my life though. It may be literally quite true, but I'm just talking here, right? Trying to communicate. To my mind, the idea that I bring to pass the power of God in my life carries a somewhat godlike quality with it. No, that doesn't communicate...I have no problem with the idea of owning up to godlike qualities, but it seems to carry with it a quality that should be reserved only to God. I absolutely believe that we do the healing and that we have the awesome privilege to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are not the first agents involved, God is. Like Jesus did, we see the Father work and we work, and we can do nothing without him.
Also, despite (or perhaps in clarification of) what I said about ministering and prayer above, I know that the gifts of healings that occurred rode on a great wave of the believing prayers of thousands.
I have had the opportunity lately at work to minister healing to two people with Cancer with great relults. Cancer is bad enough, but one had it spread throughout his system. Many were praying for these two people, and they were trying many types of "alternative" (what a stupid term - perhaps natural would be better) healing modalities, but I knew how to simply walk with the Father and minister healing. In the most serious case, I was very cognizant of the believing prayers of people being involved spiritually in what I was doing and thankful for it. But I knew the difference. And you're right, it is an awesome privilege to be able to serve in this way. Other believers at work had said that I needed to open my mouth and declare these truths concerning the power that God has given to men - and so lately I am. I feel like I'm coming out of the closet or something like that. And I'm diggin it.
Oh, while I'm at it...
I was thinking "no" when I first read your question, but then I remembered a young woman in my fellowship that had a teacher in community college who was practiced in the occult arts. On day after fellowship, she asked me to minister to her, and as I started to, I immediately sensed a spirit in her back and knew her teacher had placed it there. I asked her if she had allowed her college teacher to practice his "healing" arts on her. She said that she had a headache in class and he massaged her and the headache went away. I told her he got rid of the headache by putting a spirit in her back.I don't know it that qualifies as "seeing" bogus miracles or not.
Living & Learning,
Tom
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mj412
I had a conversation with my son about this, and it ended quickly .
Maybe some of you have the answer I should have come up with cause Im still quite silent on this.
I told my son God can heal you.
he looked at me and said "ma with all the innocent litle children dying of cancer and horrible accidents why would God chose to heal me and not them?"
Why would God heal me and leave out everyone eles who needs him to heal them?
if you can answer these questions and make sense other than "Gods will be done" I do not believe God wants any person to suffer or be hurt. I do believe God can and does heal peple.
but why not everyone? is someone more deserving? more sinfull ? what? Is it by grace and His love or by the luck of the draw?
this is a sad subject to me, I know people will say it is satan, ok ok it is satan why would God save some and not others ? satan or not?
I was silent as I looked at my deep son and his point well taken, and I still quietly ask inside me the same why would that be?
claim all the bible verses you may chose , it doesnt change the fact the tiny son of mine deserved to get well no more or less than the next mom's son.
Im thankful but I do not get it either.
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Tom
God doesn't decide to heal or not to heal. God gives the power to heal to people. God is not the variable in this question; people are. God's will is constant; he wishes more than anything else for people to be healed.
Before Jesus' disciples were given the power to heal, Jesus told people to pray for the kingdom of God to come so that God's will may be done on earth as it is in heaven. The reason more people weren't being healed before that prayer was prayed is because the kingdom of God hadn't come - except, of course, in the person of Jesus Christ who was doing a lot of healing at the time.
After Jesus gave the disciples the power to heal, he gave them directions on how to bring that power to bear. No more were they told to pray that the kingdom of God should come for now the disciples had the kingdom of God within. Now the will of God (to heal) could be done just as his will is done in heaven. They were to tell others that the kingdom of God was near to them (for it was in the disciples). The disciples were at peace with God and that was their message. They were to heal those who received the peace of their words.
Those are the variables now. First, like the disciples, we have to believe that we, not God, have the power to heal because where we are, there is the kingdom of God for it is within us. Second, we need to tell people so - not that God can heal them, but that we can because the kingdom of God is within us. Third, people need to believe the word that we tell them about the presence of God within and the ability for people to heal - and believing, desire it enough to come & get it.
In other words:
1. Freely we receive.
2. Freely we give.
3. Freely they receive.
Those are the variables as far as I see it.
Matthew 9:8 Â But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
Tom
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lindyhopper
I guess that sounds nice. I don't think I have ever heard that, except for the fact that it comes back to your believing which I don't believe to be true, but hey, if it works for you then great.
It also sounds a little inefficient. Suffering, sickness, and death happens gloabally 24/7. There are far more incidents than there are Christians there to save the day. It is not the way I would plan it, but maybe I feel for people a little too much. It just doesn't seem fair. I know life isn't fair, but supposedly God is and just. I don't know anything fair or just about innocent little children dying of cancer, SIDs, or listeria because mom didn't know not to eat cold cuts while pregnant, or anything else, just because there wasn't an informed Christian around waiting in the wings to proclaim the Kingdom of God is nearby.
I know that I know that I know that I don't know everything. There could be a God and he could have his reasons, but I can't help but feel a little out of the loop and upset about it. Cause from my perspective, it doesn't make sense, isn't fair, and isn't just. All I or anyone else are left with is suffering and dispair. There is hope, of course, but it is my experience that hope doesn't heal wounds nor does it confirm a belief. It is just a decided refocusing of ones attention in order to move on with life.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
ehank you all who have posted to this thread. you have helped my eyes open to so many things. now have many more questions oh well another day again thanks
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mj412
I do not think God needs anyone or thing to complete His reality of being God.
Ask lucifer how far that thought got him . What God made needs HIM not the other way around . where is HE helpless without our meager tasks of some performance magic Hee bestows on those He picks and choses.
The mule who complained aout being kicked to hard must have had a mighty job to do huh?
nah all of that is magic thining that feeds a ego planted in the brain by bible verses gone heady and far far to intellectual.
I am like God and all powerful.
God is ALMIGHTY I do not believe He reigns on the whim of whether or not an individual may or may NOT think about, which child just doesnt get the believing enough? and deserves to die today? Or which parent must wear the burden of guilt you apply to their own prayer that didnt work ?
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LornaDoone
Hi Tom,
"I have somewhat of a problem with the idea of bringing to pass the power of God in my life though. It may be literally quite true, but I'm just talking here, right? Trying to communicate. To my mind, the idea that I bring to pass the power of God in my life carries a somewhat godlike quality with it. No, that doesn't communicate...I have no problem with the idea of owning up to godlike qualities, but it seems to carry with it a quality that should be reserved only to God. I absolutely believe that we do the healing and that we have the awesome privilege to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are not the first agents involved, God is. Like Jesus did, we see the Father work and we work, and we can do nothing without him."
I believe from what I have learned and seen over the years that this is not an EGO type of thing where "I" do the healing, but "I" bring to pass the power of God in my life and that of those around me. This is an awesome priviledge, one that comes with responsibility. Yes people pray and make intercession, that too is not ego but a priviledge. I do not count this the same as Lucifer taking it upon himself to think he was something great. This is something that God commanded us to do. "(you) Heal the sick, (you)cleanse the lepers, freely you have received, (you) freely give"
I don't think Jesus thought it was ego to have God in him and now we have God in Christ in us. That is the enablement that give us the right and authority to (we) bring to pass God's will (beloved I wish above all things that tho mayest prosper and be in health...)for those that we minister to.
The "ego" part would come in, ie. (LCM) where one falls into the "pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall". Then I would have to agree with you but we are to guard our hearts against such "spiritual invasion" of our minds.
It was ultimately your believing that God would work in your situation that you took a stand, even to the point of believing in someone like Dr. W. to guide you in the right direction to receive your healing and you did. God ultimates always gets the glory.
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WaywardWayfer
From TWI's website, this is their stand on healing:
"To claim and manifest God's healing, we believe on the positives of His Word, not the negatives of the world. When we become immersed in the Word and start living according to God's promises, we find that He is able to bring us health and peace."
You have to be good and "live according to his pomises", nevermind the unconditional love He has for us or the fact that God is merciful and heals us when we least expect or deserve it at times.
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Ham
Wowser. I would say that that little sentence passed over the desk of at least a half a dozen lawyers. Note, no guarantees given- jump through the hoops, soak yourself in enough TWI positiveness (brine), and miraculously, a person will finally find that God is "able to bring us health and peace".
What it is NOT saying is quite enlightening. It does not say "and God will heal you". Typical Way double-talk. "Well, we didn't actually tell you that you'd get healed.."
I wonder what their definition of "negatives of the world" is. Probably expensive, "devilish" medicine..
MJ, this may not help a lot, but I have some of the same questions you do.. I am not entirely satisfied with many of the reasons people give for why people don't receive healing. I think I am finally at ease with the idea that I may just plain old never know why. Sometimes that is the best answer you can give somebody..
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Tom
Lorna,
Please let me clarify. I absolutely agree with what you're saying. I just felt that I had to clarify that we don't have the option to heal any ole time we feel like it because we still, like Jesus did, see the Father work and we work, and we still can do nothing without him.
I just had to clarify who the prime mover is in all this - to keep the ego out. Which I did. As did you - admirably.
When people marvel that God has given such power to people, God gets the glory - again, Matthew 9:8 above.
When God has not empowered people - because HE IS ALL POWERFUL, then people are powerless. It seems to be humbly ascribing all power to God, but it also ascribes all sickness to God - or it just leaves us without answers. Hmm, okay, let me see - either God sucks or umm I don't know what else it could be.
Aah, I'd rather see healing. Really, I promise that God will get the glory - like WAY more glory than if people don't get healed.
Ah, um, well, yeah - you said a lot there and as I look at it, ah, um, well, yeah - you're absolutely right, Lorna. Thanks a lot for pointing those things out - you've put it together, thanks for speaking up.
Wayward,
Every time we are sick, it is NOT because we are not good or not "living according to his promises."
But every time we are healed, it IS God's mercy acting in our lives. Mercy is free and cheerful whether it is your dang fault or not. WOW!
Believing for beautiful things that God gives doesn't suck - even if people feel guilty that they can't appreciate the beauty of a flower, that doesn't make the flower ugly. it is not about ego; it is about...
Ephesians 1:17 Â ...the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 Â The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know...
...what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead...
There is no face – born of ego – that can be maintained in the face of him who had his face torn beyond recognition so that we could go beyond our pretensions, and, finally, be healed. I think that is the Word, & if people believe it, they will be healed.
It may take some thinking, but it is not overly intellectual in the least.
Beloved, I wish above all things that...
That from the ALMIGHTY,
Peace,
Tom
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diazbro
Err Lorna I think you misunderstood my comments. My quote of:
was entirely sarcastic. Hawkers of PFAL used to routinely call any last minute student signups as "miracles of god". Many Way people cheapened the meaning of the word miracle by proclaiming normal things as miracles. Please re read my post to see what I meant by that. I find nothing in PFAL to be indicative of God's particular blessing on VPW, TWI, or any one who took it. If someone derived goodness from it then thats their choice. I think it was assembled from a varity of sources most of whom were people who were not contacted for their permission.
I think God very much cares about things like plagiarism and people getting their due credit. VPW felt that it was okay to steal ? I don't. Additionally, I don't even think all that was taught in PFAL (stolen or not) was necessarily "Right On" so its not like, for me, that PFAL even contains the so called "god breathed word" or some such substitute. It was a shoddily assembled seminar series put together by a man who was desperate for academic credibility and the adulation of people.
HAving said all this I think that the power of healing can "manifest" though it certainly does not need TWI or any of its adherents to occur. TWI always wanted to *own* the concept of healing and deliverance as if it was only "available" through them. Thats was and is a lie.
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