This whole "problem" with preschoolers is ridiculous, in my estimation.
Handcuffing a 5 year old girl?...etc., etc...and on it goes.
The purveyors of psycho active drugs have targeted the children of our country...first fill the kid up with a sugar diet, then when he starts bouncing off the walls,label him with some "newage" mental disorder and then give him drugs to calm him down...
In this day and time, when nobody is allowed to mind their own business, children have become the latest victim of corporate lies and greed. Attention deficit disorder? When more and more kids are living in one parent households, filling in their time with TV violence, poor nutrition and low self esteem, our "educators" are dropping the hammer of stupidity on their dysfunctional little heads. When one looks at our society as a whole, is it any wonder that our children are having problems?
The response to these problems are not solving anything...only making things worse.
Groucho - as a parent with a child diagnosed as ADHD, I can tell you it is a very real neurological disorder. However, I will also say as we learn more about it we are finding (as I had already discovered) there are ways of assisting kids with this disorder without medications, or at least in addition to the medications. [see my post on ADHD from yesterday].
However, I also know there are kids, especially boys, who are diagnosed as ADHD who are simply normal, active little boys who are expected to spend far too much time sitting and are not getting nearly enough exercise
Single parent homes can be a contributing factor, as can an unhealthy diet, too much TV and video games, etc. etc. However, I think another contributing factor can be teachers who expect 3 - 5 years olds to have better impulse control than they are capable of. 3 - 5 year olds do not know how to negotiate and compromise with other kids, this is the age where they are first learning HOW to do so. I am not suggeting any teacher or parent should accept such behavior as acceptable, but for the life of me I cannot figure out why they are suprised by it.
However, ask any school personnel what happens when a kid is suspended and they will tell you most of the time the kid simply gets a day off school - and that is punishment?
I work in a private preschool/daycare with 3 and 4 year olds. I'm the lead teacher (I am the one the parents deal with if there is a problem.) I work with (am the boss of)an asst. teacher and several teachers aids.
We have expelled several children,usually for nonpayment. If we have a child with behavior problems( we flag physical aggression for the most part) we contact the parent, set up a meeting, do a daily behavior log, more meetings etc. Most children's behavior does improve, and while they might be bratty at home, they usually have acceptable behavior at preschool.
We discontinued care for one child who was very aggressive, physically violent(choked, hit, kicked and bit other children with little or no provocation, also hit and kicked staff,) and had several tantrums a day. We had the county child development experts called in( with parental permission) testing etc. Their recommendation for him was to A) put him in a smaller classroom with less children(we didn't have a smaller classroom) or B) assign a staff member to shadow him all day long.
Staffing levels are 10 children to 1 adult in this age group in our state. If my asst. teacher was to shadow one child all day, that would leave the other teacher to care for 19 kids during peak hours, which is also our preschool program time.
We do not receive state or federal aid, though we occasionally get a grant from a private charity. We had asst teachers request to NOT be in the preschool(one was pregnant and one was elderly. I worried about the elderly lady getting knocked down, this child had knocked down another, sturdier, staff member.)
Parents of other children were also very concerned. Our afternoon high school/college aids were not able to deal with him at all, so that was also an issue.
I do not know if he had ADD or another problem. We've had plenty of kids with ADD through the years, with out any big ruckus. Ours is a developmental preschool, play to learn environment, not paper/ pencil academics.
This child was angry and physically violent. A big four year old CAN hurt staff members, especially our elderly assts that do breaks.
We chose not to hire a teacher to shadow him. We felt that we were not set up, qualified, or had the financial support to care for a child who has a severe behavior problem(regular methods hadn't made a difference with this child's behavior).
What would you do?
We discontinued care with the recomendation that the child go to a pulic school preschool or the County preschool with all the experts, special educators etc. Even Headstart has resources a private school like ours doesn't have. They can get funding to hire extra teachers etc as needed.
Bramble... thanks for your post. I think that often statistics just don't communicate the day-to-day, case-by-case facts and give the wrong impression.
Especially noteworthy: most are expelled due to lack of payment!!! This has absolutely nothing to do with the child. Not behavior, not grades, not attendence. It's all about the parent's finances. Why isn't there a different category for this type of "drop"? Makes me wonder if this survey counted these in with all the "real" expulsions?
Please excuse my ignorance for asking this question...
I have noticed that we (the public in general) are expecting teachers (at all grade levels) to have a certain level of training/education/certification to teach and/or take care of children.
Is the pay that educators receive in line with what we expect from them?
What is the fair share of what should (and how much) should come from property taxes etc?
What is a fair and convincing argument for raising taxes to fund activities such as sports, bands etc. When the students are not doing well in reading, writing, english and math? (this arguement should be made to adults that either have no childern or there children are all moved out.)
(I understand that activities such as sports, band etc. are important.)
I wanted a part-time job as an assistant in a nursery school. I have over 20 years' experience teaching movement to preschoolers, but I just wanted an easy, low-stress position. The pay: $6 an hour.
Within less than a week, they were leaving me alone in classrooms of 8 or more children. So much for assisting. I was often bounced from class to class, sometimes every hour, to cover for other teachers' break times. No curriculum to follow, make up your own. Very little structure. As you can imagine, the place was chaos.
The pre-kindergarten class had a boy who was a head and shoulders taller than anyone else in there. He had a violent streak, and could hit, bite, push, spit or kick with little or no provocation. The kids tried to be friends with him, but it often dissolved into fights or crying. He could be sweet at times, or he could erupt. His teacher knew the family: mom used cocaine during her pregnancy.
At various times when I was minding that room on the teacher's break, I had that kid cross the room to kick me, hit me on more than one occasion, hold out a foot to trip me, and push me from behind with all his might. My recourse was to take him to the office and have the director call the parents to come get him. Sometimes, there was no one in the office to help.
The parents were in denial that anything was seriously wrong. The state came in to observe, but the kid held it pretty much together when he knew he was being watched. The state offered to help train us in ways to "work" with this child, but no one was offering to assign an instructor to work with him one-on-one.
" Ours is a developmental preschool, play to learn environment, not paper/ pencil academics."
I think this right here is a crucial thing! In my opinion, it is absolutely ridiculous to expect children who do not have the coordination or the impulse control to sit at a desk for most of their day and do paperwork! In addition, I think it sets them up to have a very negative attitude about learning in general.
"If we have a child with behavior problems( we flag physical aggression for the most part) we contact the parent, set up a meeting, do a daily behavior log, more meetings etc. Most children's behavior does improve, and while they might be bratty at home, they usually have acceptable behavior at preschool"
and
"We've had plenty of kids with ADD through the years, with out any big ruckus.We've had plenty of kids with ADD through the years, with out any big ruckus."
Again crucial - if the teachers and parents work together, most behavior problems can be resolved while the children are young and the behavior less serious. BUT when one or the other (teacher or parent) is unable or unwilling to work as a team everyone loses, most especially the child.
"We chose not to hire a teacher to shadow him. We felt that we were not set up, qualified, or had the financial support to care for a child who has a severe behavior problem(regular methods hadn't made a difference with this child's behavior).
What would you do?"
In this situation, it sounds like you did everything you could do. Private schools are not funded the same was as public schools. Public schools theoretically have funding to help work with kids like this or can send them to special education programs.
"I have noticed that we (the public in general) are expecting teachers (at all grade levels) to have a certain level of training/education/certification to teach and/or take care of children.
Is the pay that educators receive in line with what we expect from them?"
In my opinion, not even close to enough. Especially when you consider these days teacher often have to pay for classroom supplies, and sometimes supplies for the students out of their own pay.
"What is the fair share of what should (and how much) should come from property taxes etc?"
Can't answer that one, sorry. I don't know enough about how the taxes are divided to even begin to touch that one. Plus different states have different systems.
"What is a fair and convincing argument for raising taxes to fund activities such as sports, bands etc. When the students are not doing well in reading, writing, english and math? (this arguement should be made to adults that either have no childern or there children are all moved out.)"
Students who are not doing well (this is vague, Z because one parent may define doing well as a C, while another may define it as all A's) usually have one of three difficulties 1) learning disability, 2)emotional or neurological disorder, and 3)lack of parental oversight. Like it or not, the school are largely responsible for helping children who fall into categories 1 and 2 but often lack the training and funding to do it well. At the moment, no one is dealing with situation 3.
That being said, extracurricular activies profit the entire community in a number of ways. They help keep kids off the street and out of trouble (it will affect the adults by preventing crime for one). They also help build the notion of team work, cooperation, and self-esteem.
The kids growing up today, will run our country one day. They will take care of the sick and elderly one day. They will start wars or prevent them.
It is unfortunate, but many kids today spend more time with their teachers/at school, than they spend with their parents. It is unfortunate, but if the teachers and administrators don't reach these kids, we will all pay the price some day.
So in a nutshell, my argument would be, you can pay now to help these kids grow up into healthy, caring, productive adults. Or you can pay later for prison time, drug wars, street fights, and possibly your own life if you become a victim of one of them after they have become a criminal.
I take most studies done by universities with a grain of salt. They are just looking for the next grant to underwrite the cost of to much administration and not enough class time. Before you flame me let me state that my wife teachs at one.
I still remember when my kids were small and I'd drop them off at the day care. Each day I would neal down and hug my boys. After a time a line would start for other kids to get hugs at the same time. The administrator stated that it showed how many kids did not recieve affection at home.
My two youngest boys have ADD. I do a minimum dossing because they need to learn how to get by without meds. I have had a problem with one teacher who wanted to medicate every child to make her job easier. I had another teacher who worked with him and made a real differance.
Lets give a hand to teachers. They have a hard time working with our kids. Most teachers are the most fantasic of people.
The main problem with kids are parents that don't care, won't care, don't take the time, or just havn't come down to earth long enough to see that its the parents job to raise their own kids.
With four children, my observation has been, when the children (especially my boys) have spent any significant time in front of a screen, (TV, Game Boy, PlayStation, Computer...) their behavior tends to be unpleasant.
They will show signs of hostility towards each other and the parent. They become distant and unthankful, and the WORST part... LOSE THIER IMAGINATION!!!
Thinking about these types of 'screened' activities for children...when they push a button on the controls or keypad, there is an immediate reaction. They can 'kill' the bad guy by pushing a couple of buttons to 'jump' on it, or Zoom away from danger w/ a short click...it doesn't require very much thinking at all. (Real life just isn't like this!)
This is the type of 'play' that many American children are used to~(maybe because the overseers are too busy, and it makes for LONG periods of peace & quiet)...hence, we have a large group of non thinkers when it comes to real life...because they haven't been practicing Real Life play as much as Screened Life Play!
To this I am sure! I have a toddler that can keep up with his 11 & 14 year old brothers on the computer...he also has words in his vocabulary that could shock the girdle off an old lady...and he's learned all this in a fairly short period of time~ Amazing!
Now, I am a stay at home mom... have been here for 18 years... and can say, if it were up to my boys, they would have TV's in their room w/ the PlayStaion hooked up at all times, and play inside most of the time, or bring their GameBoys with them to 'have something to do' in the van...even on a short trip to the store...and yes...I have purchased these things for my kids to use...I gave in to their cries to be like everyone else
Being the mean Mom that I am... I've made rules... they need to READ, and build up minutes reading to be able to use any screened game. Logs are kept of the min... any lying about your min will result in the loss of the screened priviledge for one week or more... To the Game Boy... they have been put away for more than a year now... and they haven't even been missed... our rides in the car or van include speaking to each other.. or sometimes singing with interludes of wild air drum action...Rock & Roll -->
To the disorders...yes, sadly they are developing at a very fast rate... it's scarey... public schools are mostly set up to handle 'normal'... can you imagine...20+ some kids, and even a few NOT getting along or following the rules in a class room?... 20+ doing what you ask must be difficult enough... and what if the adult in charge isn't prepared all the way...what if they did have a difficult morning, or have something on their mind like a sick loved one at home or far away...maybe they can't afford to take time off...they may lose their car or home...
These 'new' problems w/ children in schools seem to be a direct result of the lifestyle in America... I don't recall this being prevelant in the schools I went to...I do remember getting a swat on my hand, in the privacy of the girls rest room entry way... and NEVER doing whatever 'it' was again... I didn't enjoy the consequense of my misbehaving, and wasn't going to experience it again!
On the brighter side...we have been on trips... 'Up North' Michigan ...where the cabin had NO TV or PHONE!... just an old radio and a chest FULL of games of all kinds... there is a row boat in the yard, a garage full of cool stuff... including guns, bow & arrows, fishing equipment, inner-tubes, and a near-by LAKE...Honestly, our family has never been so close as the times we spent there. The boys got along the entire time, were curtious to each other, sharing without being asked, worked together... we ate every meal together, sang songs, cleaned up together, took walks in the woods, collected things... laughed until it hurt & played games until we couldn't keep our eyes open...we had short rest times in the afternoon and READ BOOKS...and the kids FOUND things to keep themselves busy...finding things in the woods, under rocks...there were all types of birds coming to the bird feeders, including humming birds & woodpeckers. Deer roamed around...We took turns using the binoculars, and found the place where the hummingbirds sat in the tree & rested... we found their nests... and one evening, a BEAR came throught the yard, and torn down one of the bird feeders & ate the fat that was there...we shopped in town... about 10 miles away, and talked with local people...they were peaceful & trusting, honest & hard working...
There is something to not having so many of the pressures and influences of the world around...I think often of moving 'Up North'...
Love to all you parents...Take care & keep fighting for your children's learning & imagination!!!
Zshot you have raised very important questions and they need to be addressed.
One of them...using property taxes to fund school systems is one I've been torn on for years.
One of the things people use in the selection of where to live is the quality of the schools. It is well known that some areas have better schools than others so that is a valid selection tool.
So - - if you have children that need schools you could move into an area known for good education, or live elsewhere and send your kids to privately funded schools.
I don't have a problem with using property taxes in the funding of education. I DO have a problem with the overly-high rates of taxation, however. IMHO thata needs addressing and restructuring but I think it's a valid source to draw from. I've got many thoughts on this matter, and I don't think too many people would like them!
Those parents who opt for better schools usually are willing to participate in extra funding for certain specific areas of academics or sports. In fact, they enjoy it (I've been there to see this).
I'm not certain how to fund them, but I strongly believe that sports, music in all forms and even shops should be a fair share of every one's education! Kids are young once...they should be "forced" into at least a cursory exposure to all of these things. (IF I wasn't forced into some kind of music class, I never would have known that some kinds of music existed because they were never playaed at home - and I would not have had an opportunity to enjoy them)
I don't believe most teachers who are assigned to students with special needs get the support they need in order to serve these students. Administrators say the assistance is there....but they don't deliver! (except one experience I had)
Seems to me that when the emphasis went from teaching children at that age the basics of acceptable school behavior... raise your hand when you want to talk, don't talk when others are, share, play nicely, say please and thank you and put things back where you found them to... "building self esteem"...
We lost the whole ball game.
Education in the States is on a horrible downward spiral thanks in no small part to...
1. The overwhelmingly phycologically based curriculum.
2. The pursuit of "building self esteem" instead of teaching the accumulation of facts.
3. The lack of corporal punishment in school.
4. The removal of prayer from the schools. (I'm sure this is an unpopular view) but I've worked in private and public schools (Christian and non-Christian) both in the States and in Greece and feel safe that I can make that statement.
5. The lack of parental care and co-operation with the teachers.
"Seems to me that when the emphasis went from teaching children at that age the basics of acceptable school behavior... raise your hand when you want to talk, don't talk when others are, share, play nicely, say please and thank you and put things back where you found them to... "
I agree with you on this part, but disagree on the self esteem part. I don't think the problem is teaching self esteem, I think the problem is teaching abc's and 123's before teaching the kids what is expected of them in terms of behavior at school, how to negotiate and compromise with their peers, etc. When we were in pre-school and kindergarten the focus was on socialization skills, not abc's and 123s (though there was some of that as well). The focus on educational topics started more in the first grade.
"Seems to me that when the emphasis went from teaching children at that age the basics of acceptable school behavior... raise your hand when you want to talk, don't talk when others are, share, play nicely, say please and thank you and put things back where you found them to... "
My preschool is not all that academic. We are somewhat considered dinosaurs in the community because we have free choice and free play centers. We do teach social skills through a play environment. We plan creative and cognitive activities, dramatic play with props etc, music, movement. It is similar to what many baby boomers remember in kindergarten.
Move up a year to our prekindergarten class--lots of self help skills--zipping tying, listening, writing name, cutting,following directions--lots more stuctured, ABCs and 123S.
When kids in our area get to kindergarten they will be in a class--if they're lucky--with 20 five year olds and one teacher. They could be in a class with 24 or 25 kids. No asst teacher.
By the end of kindergarten they are expected to know phonics and be reading three and four letter words, know what a consonant blend is, do basic math facts to 10. With those type of expectations, there is little finger painting or songs and dancing. It's paper, pencil, worksheets.
I doubt that the teachers now days care that much about self esteem(I think that concern was big two decades ago. The 80s were pretty easy going)--they are thinking--is so and so up to standards? Is my class going to meet expectations? How do I compare to state and national test scores? So if the kid has absolutely no self esteem, but is mananging to meet academic standards and isn't disruptive, no prob.
Any child that can't or won't meet the standards is flagged. Teacher is covering her a$$, so to speak, because every educator knows there will be children who will not be able to meet the standards, due to a myriad of reasons.
Child won't be able to 'catch up' in first grade, either,they're already behind. Summer school may help, or they'll go through the process and see the resource room teacher(which opts the child out of the classroom average here.)
Oh! And if you have a really bright child--most schools will not recommend the child be tested for gifted and talented, which is often funded through special ed funds. You, the parent, need to push it. Why? Because it is better for the classroom average to have those really bright kids taking the tests with their peers(even though their peers are reading at 4th grade level and bright child is reading at 11th grade level.) It is also cheaper if child can manage in a regular classroom. Sheesh, if they're in the gifted and talented program they might be bussed out of that school to be in the special classes. Think of how that affects the class test scores!
the 80's was the beginning of teh whole language theory....
(look at a book and absorb the words....yeah i know)
now the pendulum has swung the other way...and you know...it never really stops inthe middle.
I think the expectations thing is the issue....
A lot of reading studies that deal with non discrepancy model children found that homeschooled or public schooled, most AVERAGE kids read at the 5th grade level by 11....amazing ....NORMAL DEVELOPMENT whoda thunnk???
All boils down to money...from pre school on through college... it's still the same song & dance.
The push here is for 6th - 8th graders to have the same type of set up as High School...changing classes... more resposibility on them...4 min to get to the next class...the point is the FOCUS...the Focus is NOT the Academics~ :(-->
"Oh! And if you have a really bright child--most schools will not recommend the child be tested for gifted and talented, which is often funded through special ed funds. You, the parent, need to push it. Why? Because it is better for the classroom average to have those really bright kids taking the tests with their peers(even though their peers are reading at 4th grade level and bright child is reading at 11th grade level.) It is also cheaper if child can manage in a regular classroom. Sheesh, if they're in the gifted and talented program they might be bussed out of that school to be in the special classes. Think of how that affects the class test scores!"
Boy does this explain alot! In Michigan there are no gifted programs available for children until they reach high school . . . UNLESS your child qualifies for an individualized education plan because they also have a learning disability, are emotionally impaired, or have some other disorder such as ADD, ADHD, ODD, etc.
This means my very bright son who has been diagnosed with ADHD and who was doing third grade math in the first grade can get a specialized education plan to help him continue to achieve in those areas where he excells.
The downside to this is he also has a very low frustration tolerance and pushing him too hard can backfire.
BUT my other very bright child who is also working a grade level above his peers, and who has a much higher frustration tolerance cannot -unless I choose to medicate him for some disorder he does not have. :(-->
By the end of kindergarten they are expected to know phonics and be reading three and four letter words, know what a consonant blend is, do basic math facts to 10. With those type of expectations, there is little finger painting or songs and dancing. It's paper, pencil, worksheets.
Wow, Bramble, unbelievable.
This is the age when children should be learning about life by moving and discovering, not by pushing a pencil. They shouldn't be holding anything more pointy than a crayon!
HA - it isn't about teaching them about life - its about making sure they can pass those standarized tests when the time comes.
Now that's a mouthful! I can't stand teaching for testing, yet that seems to be the only real consideration when it comes to curriculum development, course material and acceptable lesson plans. The standard question is... how does this material relate to the _____ test?
SafariVista,
I have to disagree with you about the money statement. A very good book (imo) called, "The conspiracy of ignorance" - by Martin Gross, dispells the notion that money and classroom size (that which educators and politicians are most vocal about) have that much to do with results.
International testing scores on subjects like maths have shown the States dead last (out of 39 countries) despite the fact that they spent nearly 7 times as much per year, per child, and had the smallest classroom size average (19) at the secondary level.
Not surprisingly, or rather, unfortunately, the U.S. scored first on "self-esteem" tests taken before the actual academic tests were administered.
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GrouchoMarxJr
This whole "problem" with preschoolers is ridiculous, in my estimation.
Handcuffing a 5 year old girl?...etc., etc...and on it goes.
The purveyors of psycho active drugs have targeted the children of our country...first fill the kid up with a sugar diet, then when he starts bouncing off the walls,label him with some "newage" mental disorder and then give him drugs to calm him down...
In this day and time, when nobody is allowed to mind their own business, children have become the latest victim of corporate lies and greed. Attention deficit disorder? When more and more kids are living in one parent households, filling in their time with TV violence, poor nutrition and low self esteem, our "educators" are dropping the hammer of stupidity on their dysfunctional little heads. When one looks at our society as a whole, is it any wonder that our children are having problems?
The response to these problems are not solving anything...only making things worse.
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Abigail
Groucho - as a parent with a child diagnosed as ADHD, I can tell you it is a very real neurological disorder. However, I will also say as we learn more about it we are finding (as I had already discovered) there are ways of assisting kids with this disorder without medications, or at least in addition to the medications. [see my post on ADHD from yesterday].
However, I also know there are kids, especially boys, who are diagnosed as ADHD who are simply normal, active little boys who are expected to spend far too much time sitting and are not getting nearly enough exercise
Single parent homes can be a contributing factor, as can an unhealthy diet, too much TV and video games, etc. etc. However, I think another contributing factor can be teachers who expect 3 - 5 years olds to have better impulse control than they are capable of. 3 - 5 year olds do not know how to negotiate and compromise with other kids, this is the age where they are first learning HOW to do so. I am not suggeting any teacher or parent should accept such behavior as acceptable, but for the life of me I cannot figure out why they are suprised by it.
However, ask any school personnel what happens when a kid is suspended and they will tell you most of the time the kid simply gets a day off school - and that is punishment?
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Shellon
Remember when being a kid was fun?
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Bramble
I work in a private preschool/daycare with 3 and 4 year olds. I'm the lead teacher (I am the one the parents deal with if there is a problem.) I work with (am the boss of)an asst. teacher and several teachers aids.
We have expelled several children,usually for nonpayment. If we have a child with behavior problems( we flag physical aggression for the most part) we contact the parent, set up a meeting, do a daily behavior log, more meetings etc. Most children's behavior does improve, and while they might be bratty at home, they usually have acceptable behavior at preschool.
We discontinued care for one child who was very aggressive, physically violent(choked, hit, kicked and bit other children with little or no provocation, also hit and kicked staff,) and had several tantrums a day. We had the county child development experts called in( with parental permission) testing etc. Their recommendation for him was to A) put him in a smaller classroom with less children(we didn't have a smaller classroom) or B) assign a staff member to shadow him all day long.
Staffing levels are 10 children to 1 adult in this age group in our state. If my asst. teacher was to shadow one child all day, that would leave the other teacher to care for 19 kids during peak hours, which is also our preschool program time.
We do not receive state or federal aid, though we occasionally get a grant from a private charity. We had asst teachers request to NOT be in the preschool(one was pregnant and one was elderly. I worried about the elderly lady getting knocked down, this child had knocked down another, sturdier, staff member.)
Parents of other children were also very concerned. Our afternoon high school/college aids were not able to deal with him at all, so that was also an issue.
I do not know if he had ADD or another problem. We've had plenty of kids with ADD through the years, with out any big ruckus. Ours is a developmental preschool, play to learn environment, not paper/ pencil academics.
This child was angry and physically violent. A big four year old CAN hurt staff members, especially our elderly assts that do breaks.
We chose not to hire a teacher to shadow him. We felt that we were not set up, qualified, or had the financial support to care for a child who has a severe behavior problem(regular methods hadn't made a difference with this child's behavior).
What would you do?
We discontinued care with the recomendation that the child go to a pulic school preschool or the County preschool with all the experts, special educators etc. Even Headstart has resources a private school like ours doesn't have. They can get funding to hire extra teachers etc as needed.
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TheHighWay
Bramble... thanks for your post. I think that often statistics just don't communicate the day-to-day, case-by-case facts and give the wrong impression.
Especially noteworthy: most are expelled due to lack of payment!!! This has absolutely nothing to do with the child. Not behavior, not grades, not attendence. It's all about the parent's finances. Why isn't there a different category for this type of "drop"? Makes me wonder if this survey counted these in with all the "real" expulsions?
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Zshot
Please excuse my ignorance for asking this question...
I have noticed that we (the public in general) are expecting teachers (at all grade levels) to have a certain level of training/education/certification to teach and/or take care of children.
Is the pay that educators receive in line with what we expect from them?
What is the fair share of what should (and how much) should come from property taxes etc?
What is a fair and convincing argument for raising taxes to fund activities such as sports, bands etc. When the students are not doing well in reading, writing, english and math? (this arguement should be made to adults that either have no childern or there children are all moved out.)
(I understand that activities such as sports, band etc. are important.)
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shazdancer
Bramble, I recently had a similar experience.
I wanted a part-time job as an assistant in a nursery school. I have over 20 years' experience teaching movement to preschoolers, but I just wanted an easy, low-stress position. The pay: $6 an hour.
Within less than a week, they were leaving me alone in classrooms of 8 or more children. So much for assisting. I was often bounced from class to class, sometimes every hour, to cover for other teachers' break times. No curriculum to follow, make up your own. Very little structure. As you can imagine, the place was chaos.
The pre-kindergarten class had a boy who was a head and shoulders taller than anyone else in there. He had a violent streak, and could hit, bite, push, spit or kick with little or no provocation. The kids tried to be friends with him, but it often dissolved into fights or crying. He could be sweet at times, or he could erupt. His teacher knew the family: mom used cocaine during her pregnancy.
At various times when I was minding that room on the teacher's break, I had that kid cross the room to kick me, hit me on more than one occasion, hold out a foot to trip me, and push me from behind with all his might. My recourse was to take him to the office and have the director call the parents to come get him. Sometimes, there was no one in the office to help.
The parents were in denial that anything was seriously wrong. The state came in to observe, but the kid held it pretty much together when he knew he was being watched. The state offered to help train us in ways to "work" with this child, but no one was offering to assign an instructor to work with him one-on-one.
His teacher was threatening to quit. I did.
Regards,
Shaz
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Abigail
Bramble, thanks for sharing your insights.
A couple of things stuck out to me:
" Ours is a developmental preschool, play to learn environment, not paper/ pencil academics."
I think this right here is a crucial thing! In my opinion, it is absolutely ridiculous to expect children who do not have the coordination or the impulse control to sit at a desk for most of their day and do paperwork! In addition, I think it sets them up to have a very negative attitude about learning in general.
"If we have a child with behavior problems( we flag physical aggression for the most part) we contact the parent, set up a meeting, do a daily behavior log, more meetings etc. Most children's behavior does improve, and while they might be bratty at home, they usually have acceptable behavior at preschool"
and
"We've had plenty of kids with ADD through the years, with out any big ruckus.We've had plenty of kids with ADD through the years, with out any big ruckus."
Again crucial - if the teachers and parents work together, most behavior problems can be resolved while the children are young and the behavior less serious. BUT when one or the other (teacher or parent) is unable or unwilling to work as a team everyone loses, most especially the child.
"We chose not to hire a teacher to shadow him. We felt that we were not set up, qualified, or had the financial support to care for a child who has a severe behavior problem(regular methods hadn't made a difference with this child's behavior).
What would you do?"
In this situation, it sounds like you did everything you could do. Private schools are not funded the same was as public schools. Public schools theoretically have funding to help work with kids like this or can send them to special education programs.
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Abigail
"I have noticed that we (the public in general) are expecting teachers (at all grade levels) to have a certain level of training/education/certification to teach and/or take care of children.
Is the pay that educators receive in line with what we expect from them?"
In my opinion, not even close to enough. Especially when you consider these days teacher often have to pay for classroom supplies, and sometimes supplies for the students out of their own pay.
"What is the fair share of what should (and how much) should come from property taxes etc?"
Can't answer that one, sorry. I don't know enough about how the taxes are divided to even begin to touch that one. Plus different states have different systems.
"What is a fair and convincing argument for raising taxes to fund activities such as sports, bands etc. When the students are not doing well in reading, writing, english and math? (this arguement should be made to adults that either have no childern or there children are all moved out.)"
Students who are not doing well (this is vague, Z because one parent may define doing well as a C, while another may define it as all A's) usually have one of three difficulties 1) learning disability, 2)emotional or neurological disorder, and 3)lack of parental oversight. Like it or not, the school are largely responsible for helping children who fall into categories 1 and 2 but often lack the training and funding to do it well. At the moment, no one is dealing with situation 3.
That being said, extracurricular activies profit the entire community in a number of ways. They help keep kids off the street and out of trouble (it will affect the adults by preventing crime for one). They also help build the notion of team work, cooperation, and self-esteem.
The kids growing up today, will run our country one day. They will take care of the sick and elderly one day. They will start wars or prevent them.
It is unfortunate, but many kids today spend more time with their teachers/at school, than they spend with their parents. It is unfortunate, but if the teachers and administrators don't reach these kids, we will all pay the price some day.
So in a nutshell, my argument would be, you can pay now to help these kids grow up into healthy, caring, productive adults. Or you can pay later for prison time, drug wars, street fights, and possibly your own life if you become a victim of one of them after they have become a criminal.
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ex70sHouston
I take most studies done by universities with a grain of salt. They are just looking for the next grant to underwrite the cost of to much administration and not enough class time. Before you flame me let me state that my wife teachs at one.
I still remember when my kids were small and I'd drop them off at the day care. Each day I would neal down and hug my boys. After a time a line would start for other kids to get hugs at the same time. The administrator stated that it showed how many kids did not recieve affection at home.
My two youngest boys have ADD. I do a minimum dossing because they need to learn how to get by without meds. I have had a problem with one teacher who wanted to medicate every child to make her job easier. I had another teacher who worked with him and made a real differance.
Lets give a hand to teachers. They have a hard time working with our kids. Most teachers are the most fantasic of people.
The main problem with kids are parents that don't care, won't care, don't take the time, or just havn't come down to earth long enough to see that its the parents job to raise their own kids.
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SafariVista
Very interesting subject...enjoyed the reading~
With four children, my observation has been, when the children (especially my boys) have spent any significant time in front of a screen, (TV, Game Boy, PlayStation, Computer...) their behavior tends to be unpleasant.
They will show signs of hostility towards each other and the parent. They become distant and unthankful, and the WORST part... LOSE THIER IMAGINATION!!!
Thinking about these types of 'screened' activities for children...when they push a button on the controls or keypad, there is an immediate reaction. They can 'kill' the bad guy by pushing a couple of buttons to 'jump' on it, or Zoom away from danger w/ a short click...it doesn't require very much thinking at all. (Real life just isn't like this!)
This is the type of 'play' that many American children are used to~(maybe because the overseers are too busy, and it makes for LONG periods of peace & quiet)...hence, we have a large group of non thinkers when it comes to real life...because they haven't been practicing Real Life play as much as Screened Life Play!
To this I am sure! I have a toddler that can keep up with his 11 & 14 year old brothers on the computer...he also has words in his vocabulary that could shock the girdle off an old lady...and he's learned all this in a fairly short period of time~ Amazing!
Now, I am a stay at home mom... have been here for 18 years... and can say, if it were up to my boys, they would have TV's in their room w/ the PlayStaion hooked up at all times, and play inside most of the time, or bring their GameBoys with them to 'have something to do' in the van...even on a short trip to the store...and yes...I have purchased these things for my kids to use...I gave in to their cries to be like everyone else
Being the mean Mom that I am... I've made rules... they need to READ, and build up minutes reading to be able to use any screened game. Logs are kept of the min... any lying about your min will result in the loss of the screened priviledge for one week or more... To the Game Boy... they have been put away for more than a year now... and they haven't even been missed... our rides in the car or van include speaking to each other.. or sometimes singing with interludes of wild air drum action...Rock & Roll
-->
To the disorders...yes, sadly they are developing at a very fast rate... it's scarey... public schools are mostly set up to handle 'normal'... can you imagine...20+ some kids, and even a few NOT getting along or following the rules in a class room?... 20+ doing what you ask must be difficult enough... and what if the adult in charge isn't prepared all the way...what if they did have a difficult morning, or have something on their mind like a sick loved one at home or far away...maybe they can't afford to take time off...they may lose their car or home...
These 'new' problems w/ children in schools seem to be a direct result of the lifestyle in America... I don't recall this being prevelant in the schools I went to...I do remember getting a swat on my hand, in the privacy of the girls rest room entry way... and NEVER doing whatever 'it' was again... I didn't enjoy the consequense of my misbehaving, and wasn't going to experience it again!
On the brighter side...we have been on trips... 'Up North' Michigan
...where the cabin had NO TV or PHONE!... just an old radio and a chest FULL of games of all kinds... there is a row boat in the yard, a garage full of cool stuff... including guns, bow & arrows, fishing equipment, inner-tubes, and a near-by LAKE...Honestly, our family has never been so close as the times we spent there. The boys got along the entire time, were curtious to each other, sharing without being asked, worked together... we ate every meal together, sang songs, cleaned up together, took walks in the woods, collected things... laughed until it hurt & played games until we couldn't keep our eyes open...we had short rest times in the afternoon and READ BOOKS...and the kids FOUND things to keep themselves busy...finding things in the woods, under rocks...there were all types of birds coming to the bird feeders, including humming birds & woodpeckers. Deer roamed around...We took turns using the binoculars, and found the place where the hummingbirds sat in the tree & rested... we found their nests... and one evening, a BEAR came throught the yard, and torn down one of the bird feeders & ate the fat that was there...we shopped in town... about 10 miles away, and talked with local people...they were peaceful & trusting, honest & hard working...
There is something to not having so many of the pressures and influences of the world around...I think often of moving 'Up North'...
Love to all you parents...Take care & keep fighting for your children's learning & imagination!!!
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krys
Zshot you have raised very important questions and they need to be addressed.
One of them...using property taxes to fund school systems is one I've been torn on for years.
One of the things people use in the selection of where to live is the quality of the schools. It is well known that some areas have better schools than others so that is a valid selection tool.
So - - if you have children that need schools you could move into an area known for good education, or live elsewhere and send your kids to privately funded schools.
I don't have a problem with using property taxes in the funding of education. I DO have a problem with the overly-high rates of taxation, however. IMHO thata needs addressing and restructuring but I think it's a valid source to draw from. I've got many thoughts on this matter, and I don't think too many people would like them!
Those parents who opt for better schools usually are willing to participate in extra funding for certain specific areas of academics or sports. In fact, they enjoy it (I've been there to see this).
I'm not certain how to fund them, but I strongly believe that sports, music in all forms and even shops should be a fair share of every one's education! Kids are young once...they should be "forced" into at least a cursory exposure to all of these things. (IF I wasn't forced into some kind of music class, I never would have known that some kinds of music existed because they were never playaed at home - and I would not have had an opportunity to enjoy them)
I don't believe most teachers who are assigned to students with special needs get the support they need in order to serve these students. Administrators say the assistance is there....but they don't deliver! (except one experience I had)
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Greek2me
Seems to me that when the emphasis went from teaching children at that age the basics of acceptable school behavior... raise your hand when you want to talk, don't talk when others are, share, play nicely, say please and thank you and put things back where you found them to... "building self esteem"...
We lost the whole ball game.
Education in the States is on a horrible downward spiral thanks in no small part to...
1. The overwhelmingly phycologically based curriculum.
2. The pursuit of "building self esteem" instead of teaching the accumulation of facts.
3. The lack of corporal punishment in school.
4. The removal of prayer from the schools. (I'm sure this is an unpopular view) but I've worked in private and public schools (Christian and non-Christian) both in the States and in Greece and feel safe that I can make that statement.
5. The lack of parental care and co-operation with the teachers.
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SafariVista
Sorry for getting off the simplicity of the subject...
I agree with Greek2me~ very nicely put!
The things 'taught' in schools for this young age should be an extention of what is already being practiced in the home.
...but what should be and what is...hummm, difficult~ maybe part of the world waxing worse & worse...
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Abigail
"Seems to me that when the emphasis went from teaching children at that age the basics of acceptable school behavior... raise your hand when you want to talk, don't talk when others are, share, play nicely, say please and thank you and put things back where you found them to... "
I agree with you on this part, but disagree on the self esteem part. I don't think the problem is teaching self esteem, I think the problem is teaching abc's and 123's before teaching the kids what is expected of them in terms of behavior at school, how to negotiate and compromise with their peers, etc. When we were in pre-school and kindergarten the focus was on socialization skills, not abc's and 123s (though there was some of that as well). The focus on educational topics started more in the first grade.
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Bramble
My preschool is not all that academic. We are somewhat considered dinosaurs in the community because we have free choice and free play centers. We do teach social skills through a play environment. We plan creative and cognitive activities, dramatic play with props etc, music, movement. It is similar to what many baby boomers remember in kindergarten.
Move up a year to our prekindergarten class--lots of self help skills--zipping tying, listening, writing name, cutting,following directions--lots more stuctured, ABCs and 123S.
When kids in our area get to kindergarten they will be in a class--if they're lucky--with 20 five year olds and one teacher. They could be in a class with 24 or 25 kids. No asst teacher.
By the end of kindergarten they are expected to know phonics and be reading three and four letter words, know what a consonant blend is, do basic math facts to 10. With those type of expectations, there is little finger painting or songs and dancing. It's paper, pencil, worksheets.
I doubt that the teachers now days care that much about self esteem(I think that concern was big two decades ago. The 80s were pretty easy going)--they are thinking--is so and so up to standards? Is my class going to meet expectations? How do I compare to state and national test scores? So if the kid has absolutely no self esteem, but is mananging to meet academic standards and isn't disruptive, no prob.
Any child that can't or won't meet the standards is flagged. Teacher is covering her a$$, so to speak, because every educator knows there will be children who will not be able to meet the standards, due to a myriad of reasons.
Child won't be able to 'catch up' in first grade, either,they're already behind. Summer school may help, or they'll go through the process and see the resource room teacher(which opts the child out of the classroom average here.)
Oh! And if you have a really bright child--most schools will not recommend the child be tested for gifted and talented, which is often funded through special ed funds. You, the parent, need to push it. Why? Because it is better for the classroom average to have those really bright kids taking the tests with their peers(even though their peers are reading at 4th grade level and bright child is reading at 11th grade level.) It is also cheaper if child can manage in a regular classroom. Sheesh, if they're in the gifted and talented program they might be bussed out of that school to be in the special classes. Think of how that affects the class test scores!
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DaddyHoundog
the 80's was the beginning of teh whole language theory....
(look at a book and absorb the words....yeah i know)
now the pendulum has swung the other way...and you know...it never really stops inthe middle.
I think the expectations thing is the issue....
A lot of reading studies that deal with non discrepancy model children found that homeschooled or public schooled, most AVERAGE kids read at the 5th grade level by 11....amazing ....NORMAL DEVELOPMENT whoda thunnk???
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SafariVista
All boils down to money...from pre school on through college... it's still the same song & dance.
The push here is for 6th - 8th graders to have the same type of set up as High School...changing classes... more resposibility on them...4 min to get to the next class...the point is the FOCUS...the Focus is NOT the Academics~
:(-->
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Abigail
"Oh! And if you have a really bright child--most schools will not recommend the child be tested for gifted and talented, which is often funded through special ed funds. You, the parent, need to push it. Why? Because it is better for the classroom average to have those really bright kids taking the tests with their peers(even though their peers are reading at 4th grade level and bright child is reading at 11th grade level.) It is also cheaper if child can manage in a regular classroom. Sheesh, if they're in the gifted and talented program they might be bussed out of that school to be in the special classes. Think of how that affects the class test scores!"
Boy does this explain alot! In Michigan there are no gifted programs available for children until they reach high school . . . UNLESS your child qualifies for an individualized education plan because they also have a learning disability, are emotionally impaired, or have some other disorder such as ADD, ADHD, ODD, etc.
This means my very bright son who has been diagnosed with ADHD and who was doing third grade math in the first grade can get a specialized education plan to help him continue to achieve in those areas where he excells.
The downside to this is he also has a very low frustration tolerance and pushing him too hard can backfire.
BUT my other very bright child who is also working a grade level above his peers, and who has a much higher frustration tolerance cannot -unless I choose to medicate him for some disorder he does not have.
:(-->
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LG
The best gifted and talented program consists primarily of a caring, involved, and capable parent.
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shazdancer
This is the age when children should be learning about life by moving and discovering, not by pushing a pencil. They shouldn't be holding anything more pointy than a crayon!
This is when they should learn to love learning.
Regards,
Shaz
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Abigail
"should be learning about life by moving and discovering, not by pushing a pencil. "
HA - it isn't about teaching them about life - its about making sure they can pass those standarized tests when the time comes.
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shazdancer
The "Today" show is going to run a segment on expelling preschoolers this morning.
FYI,
Shaz
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Greek2me
Now that's a mouthful! I can't stand teaching for testing, yet that seems to be the only real consideration when it comes to curriculum development, course material and acceptable lesson plans. The standard question is... how does this material relate to the _____ test?
SafariVista,
I have to disagree with you about the money statement. A very good book (imo) called, "The conspiracy of ignorance" - by Martin Gross, dispells the notion that money and classroom size (that which educators and politicians are most vocal about) have that much to do with results.
International testing scores on subjects like maths have shown the States dead last (out of 39 countries) despite the fact that they spent nearly 7 times as much per year, per child, and had the smallest classroom size average (19) at the secondary level.
Not surprisingly, or rather, unfortunately, the U.S. scored first on "self-esteem" tests taken before the actual academic tests were administered.
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