Hey. This happened to my wife when she was single. I did not even know that she existed. She told me about it AFTER we had been expelled from The Way, ok? Had I known P-Mosh, I most certainly would have had a problem, ok?
That makes sense then, and an even bigger compliment to her since she was single at the time but still said no.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
Do not read into what I have written. I think a number of you here foot umed that I knew of the incident when it happened. I did not!
The way you worded it was ambiguous and that is how it sounded. Just from knowing your words here, you didn't seem like the type that would have let anyone get away with something like that, so it seemed odd. In any case, as you said, she stood her ground and he left her alone.
Naw Groucho, I think they are referring to the enraged husband posted that his wife was discovered to have hpv...(a virus I believe that can cause cervical cancer).
It was his contention that she had been infected by her only other partner (lcm).
I too was put in the backrub sitation twice while on staff at Emporia and he had come to visit. This was '81 or '82. It was late at night, we ran into each other and he told me he needed a backrub. You must realize, for those of us on staff, backrubs were common, daily occurrences - nothing sexual, we just all gave backrubs. The first time I thought it was a fluke and got up and left - I had to get up early the next morning. I thought nothing of it.
The second time he was more overt about what he wanted, I then looked him square in the eye and said, your wife is a friend of mine, I will not betray her, and I left. We were still friends after that.
But over the years we had the type of relationship where we could just sit down, hang out and talk about stuff. I think if he liked you (and I don't know why he did, he just did from the time I entered the corps - and it wasn't in a sexual way), and you could hang out with him, he was a totally different guy in private. I also think with females, he was more relaxed - didn't have be a macho jock.
I do remember him telling me, since I was from NY, right outside the City, about his time spent in NYC as a church missionary. He had been very gung ho about it and I guess did a really good job. But I think the City and great poverty overwhelmed him. He was a serious committed Christian from his youth I think. Willing to be a "missionary" and go where needed to do God's will.
But, as others said, he lost it. I watched his slow descent.
I feel, when he met VPW, he had a deep psychological need for a father figure, and VP fulfilled that role. I know LCM fell in love deeply with one woman, maybe a second before his "arranged" marriage with Donna. I think Donna tried to play at loving him and being a good wife, but her women friends were always more important. That would drive a man nuts right there. I know one of Donna's friends told me, shortly after they were married, when he learned she was still sleeping with her best friend (not Rosie - this was earlier) while he travelled, he was shocked, hurt and upset.
LCM was in way over his head when he was nominated President. He was lost. When POP came out, they had him on medications and were afraid he'd commit suicide. He was totally drugged out that corps week and rock. Both sets of parents (Donna's and LCM's) had severe reservations about them taking over the ministry. They thought they were too young and immature to be handling such money and power - this was told to me by one of Donna's sisters. They were right.
I don't know, now that I think about it, its not as cut and dried as VPW.
I am only talking about up to '84 when I left staff at H.Q. - then on the field I rarely saw him.
Personally, I think as a youth, Craig did love God. I think he fell in with the wrong ministry. He was not a womanizer, that was something VP had to teach him and make him see it was ok. Under VP's tutelage, LCM became corrupted. I think after the fog years, it sounds like LCM came back with a vengance and decided he was Joshua and every woman in the kingdom was his. He was twice the child of hell VP was. His conscience was seared.
I do not think he was the con man VPW was. VP started TWI to make money - period. LCM joined because he loved God and thought he had found the answer - two different motivations.
JL, why the heck did the limb leader pour beer down your pants? That is bizarre....
What an a$$hole.
Anyway, one thing that stands out in my memory about Craig is how, when he was inaugurated, his whole speech was ALL ABOUT HIM, how the number two took such a meaningful place in his life...
Yeah, and then he turned TWI into a big pile of Number 2.
VPW had no conscience - his desires were money and sex.
LCM had a conscience. His desire (originally) was to serve God and people.
VPW didn't need to be made into a wolf in sheep's clothing, he already was.
LCM had to be made into one - subtly. I believe, in some respects, his breakdowns were crises of conscience. Literally pushing away that which he knew to be right - and living with himself afterwards. His total destruction of other people's lives were the results of his seared conscience.
Thus, I think, as VPW made LCM in his image, God, if LCM ever repented, could undo and remake LCM into what he should have been - since he had/has? a conscience.
Thanks Sunesis for sharing your personal moments with LCM and a thumbs up to you for resisting and saying "no."
Geeze, wouldn't it have been good for LCM to marry someone who he was sexually compatible with? That might have helped, who knows.
It makes sense that LCM was corrupted along the way by VPW's doctrine (or lack thereof) of no consequences for adultery. I don't think LCM became an adulterer until the very late '70's. LCM trusted VPW so much I guess he must have thought he was right about everything, even this.
Thanks Sunises, that puts lcm in a light that I can understand and maybe even feel a little compassion for.
I understand being decieved and utilized by a mog that you trust.
I understand marrying because the almighty mog said that it was *best* in spite of your feelings and misgivings....just one more decision vpw shoved down willing throats that was tragically wrong.
The way you worded it was ambiguous and that is how it sounded. Just from knowing your words here, you didn't seem like the type that would have let anyone get away with something like that, so it seemed odd. In any case, as you said, she stood her ground and he left her alone.
You are right Mosh, I did slip up on the grammar and worded it wrong. Sorry for the mis-lead. And thanks for the compliment towards my wife. And thank you too Oldiesman..
And Sunesis, you and I have talked of this before, the approach for sex by LCM thing, as well as your friendship with Craig. You said something this time that I didn't quite get. You said;
quote:
I know one of Donna's friends told me, shortly after they were married, when he learned she was still sleeping with her best friend (not Rosie - this was earlier) while he travelled, he was shocked, hurt and upset.
And so, I guess I'm a bit slow here, but I guess you're saying that Donna had a gay relationship with whomever?
And so knowing Craig, this must have made him absolutely crazy, being the big jock boy that he always was. And, as you say, if he had had a true love before his arranged marriage, then he must have been doubly hurt.
And thank you for your thoughtful and honest take on this subject. You do not hold back at all from saying what Craig became, for you said;
quote:
He was twice the child of hell VP was. His conscience was seared.
But you, because of your one time friendship with him also recognize and portray thoughtfully that he was at one time a man with a heart. From my lesser experiences around him, I see him that way as well.
For you all who were recipients of his many "twice the child of hell" depradations, I can see why you are still pi$$ed about it all. But to deny something that possibly could have been, i.e., that Craig at one time had been a good guy, isn't necessarily right either. Things happened the way they happened. It may be fun to snipe and spew things about him "because now you can", but then again, if this thread is about "Who Was LCM?", then maybe it might be to your benefit to see him as he was and then became.
I, at one time was a good hearted eighteen year old boy when I first went to Twig. I don't think I had a mean bone in me. I was all idealistic and wanted nothing more than to bask in and share the love of God that I found amongst the exuberant and idealistic WOWs that I first met in The Way. Just ask Sunesis, for she was one of them. And a sweet beautiful lassie she was and no doubt still is!
But as I entered into the machinery of the hierarchy, my purity began to fade, and I became someone that I did not desire to be. Fortunately I did not fade too far, for my idealism and love for God, and my love for Love kept me from comitting to the selfishness found in the upper echelons. The closer I got to the top, the uglier it appeared, and like Sunesis, and like many of you, I finally checked out.
At any rate, I think that Craig at one time loved God, but was decieved into becoming a deciever.
Just from reading about lcm and how some think he could come down to earth and repent. He may, repent, I just don't see it happening. If he still is being paid and lives in a twi house. I don't ever expect to hear a public apology with the BOD that is running twi now. They were to involved in the coverup.
Maybe a new BOT will let the cat out of the bag? I doubt it very much since they are hand choosen and very well groomed. Lets hope that two bit outfit closes before then.
As far as lcm himself as far as repenting to God. Maybe but I bet he has a million excuses why he did what he did so as to make it valad in his own mind. I just can't fathom him thinking it was right when he was doing his preditor act or any of his other actions. If he did not think it was wrong what would change his mind today? After all it was a 5 senses that got him thrown out not a Godly one. He blames the world IMHO not himself.
You are right Mosh, I did slip up on the grammar and worded it wrong. Sorry for the mis-lead. And thanks for the compliment towards my wife. And thank you too Oldiesman..
No problem, and I do it all the time myself (including fairly recently where I get hell for it too.)
As far as the compliment to your wife goes, even though you and I disagree strongly on a lot of religious and political issues, I do recognize that you are a good person and do what you feel is the best in life. You can't be faulted for that, and if more people lived like that the world would be a better place.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
And so, I guess I'm a bit slow here, but I guess you're saying that Donna had a gay relationship with whomever?
I've heard these accusations before as well, and although I never had any evidence of any kind against her (I never even knew her) she did get much more butch over the years after you left to a point where when I left TWI she might as well have just gotten the operation and been done with it. Her public persona was very masculine, and at first I thought it was based off of LCM, but I later realized that he seemed to be much more "sensitive" and emotional in public than she is.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
And so knowing Craig, this must have made him absolutely crazy, being the big jock boy that he always was. And, as you say, if he had had a true love before his arranged marriage, then he must have been doubly hurt.
If she was gay or bi, that would definitely explain his obsession with homosexuality, and in particular his definition of Eve's sin. One could come up with all sorts of possible scenarios and conspiracy theories, but I doubt most of us, if any of us, on this site have the information to really be informed on that.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
For you all who were recipients of his many "twice the child of hell" depradations, I can see why you are still pi$$ed about it all.
You would have been amazed at what the 90's in TWI were like. People who I considered to be bedrocks of my local area were suddenly "old wineskins" and M&A because they didn't adapt to the new fearful witch hunt mentality. LCM was not personally responsible for all of the evil committed in TWI at that time, but he definitely set the mood and empowered people who carried the things out that happened. Some of us are against LCM not because of his direct actions against us (because there are none for many of us) but because of his leadership and direction which lead to a lot of evil being committed. I was in TWI as a child in the 80's, and I remember how it used to be and then what it became in the 90's. The organization shed most of the good people that it had, and the only people left were either oppressors with chips on their shoulders or good people who were mentally enslaved and tricked into following TWI out of fear.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
But to deny something that possibly could have been, i.e., that Craig at one time had been a good guy, isn't necessarily right either.
We could say the same about anyone who has done great harm though. Gacy was a murderer who hid bodies in his basement, but he also did good too by volunteering to be a clown for sick children. He did great evil as well as good, but the good that he did in no way made up for the evil.
It's also pointless to reflect on what might have been when something else entirely happened and there's no way to change it. LCM could have grown up to be a good guy, but he descended really far to a point where he would have to make radical changes to even begin to make up for what he did. So far, he's failed to even do that. I think that your "turn the other cheek" story on this thread was very noble, and it shows your character, but at the same time you would not have been condemned had you punched the guy in the face. You did come out looking better because of it, but a key difference was that the region coordinator apologized to you. If he felt remorse, then that is a good thing. LCM has only shown regret for being caught thus far, and has not indicated any real remorse. Even his actions are still covered up in TWI to where most of it's followers don't really know what happened. They think that he had one affair, and that she probably came on to him, and then she got greedy and wanted to sue TWI. If he were to own up to his actions, particularly to do so publicly, that would be a good start.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
Things happened the way they happened. It may be fun to snipe and spew things about him "because now you can", but then again, if this thread is about "Who Was LCM?", then maybe it might be to your benefit to see him as he was and then became.
I wish there was a way to show you just how far he went ultimately, because you left TWI before the depth of his debauchery and evil. You might still be willing to forgive him if you could have seen it first hand, but you would not do so very easily.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
I, at one time was a good hearted eighteen year old boy when I first went to Twig. I don't think I had a mean bone in me. I was all idealistic and wanted nothing more than to bask in and share the love of God that I found amongst the exuberant and idealistic WOWs that I first met in The Way. Just ask Sunesis, for she was one of them. And a sweet beautiful lassie she was and no doubt still is!
But as I entered into the machinery of the hierarchy, my purity began to fade, and I became someone that I did not desire to be. Fortunately I did not fade too far, for my idealism and love for God, and my love for Love kept me from comitting to the selfishness found in the upper echelons. The closer I got to the top, the uglier it appeared, and like Sunesis, and like many of you, I finally checked out.
I don't think you ever actively participated in the evil that some did. I don't think that you ever kicked people out of a twig, broke up families, raped, or any of those things. We all are responsible for whatever evil we committed while in TWI, but some things are much worse than others. Your story is probably the typical one of many who have been in TWI for any period of time, and I doubt anyone here will fault you for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
At any rate, I think that Craig at one time loved God, but was decieved into becoming a deciever.
The Shakespeare play "MacBeth" is very similar and mirrors some of the things that LCM did, at least metaphorically speaking. A good man became an evil king, and his downfall was dramatic.
Nice post for you too Jonny. I will say, you were one of the sweetest believers I ever met - you truly had no guile.
Jonny, no, I was not saying DM has having a gay relationship. She had one super best friend she had slept with platonically for years, during the corps and after. That person is now married with children. VPW encouraged this among the women of the early corps. I guess the reason we were so surprised about Craig being upset, is because everyone knew it, everyone knew who this friend was - certainly LCM did, everyone knew they slept together often, so we all assumed LCM knew it too and was fine with it. So it was surprising to hear he was upset. The woman who told me thought it was funny LCM was upset. Still, a new marriage, I could understand this being a blow to someone's ego - most people don't like sharing their loved ones in that way.
I saw Craig start weirding out. Dressing in those all white outfits, preparing to dance in AOS, screwing cast members. He told one group in the AOS rehearsals, after he threw a hissy fit, that "I'm not Jesus Christ - yet." That says it all. It really does. He really thought he was getting there - as spiritual as Christ was.
I knew he was losing it when at a meeting when I had left HQ staff and was now on the field, during the AOS production he was training or maybe even dancing in by then, he showed up in this all white shiny, flowy, parachute type material jogging outfit for a meeting, acting like he was some kind of god - an Adonis - it was ego at its peak and very theatrical. I couldn't believe any grown man would dress like that in public. I looked at the outfit, his attitude and thought, boy, he's gone off the deep end. The sad thing is, he thought this was impressive. I think the white - to him - symbolized some kind of spiritual purity - it was just weird I tell ya.
He had to bury and shove aside his true self to be what he became, and once he made the decision, we went for everything with a vengence. I was shocked when years ago I read about TWI II. I can't imagine what it was like.
I wonder if he actually had homosexual desires himself - some people do fight it by attacking the whole caboodle and also because he tried to prove to himself that he was hetero by screwing as many different women as possible.
It's not as wierd as you might think - when I was in TWI I was in a sexual relationship with a woman just to try to prove to myself I was a "normal" man of God.
And was he using these weird costumes as a way to get in touch with his feminine side? -->
Umm...Somehow I doubt it Trefor. I think he really actually hated 'em. Thought of 'em as disgusting.
But I too remember that white suit at some public meeting that he showed up at. It really was weird.
I also have a friend who, while putting her five year old son to bed, and telling him that it was time to pray, her kid came up with the sacriest saying. He said; "Why do we have to pray to God Mom, Martindale will take care of us!" He also ran around with a rainbow headband and doing "karate" moves.. -->
Personally, I think it was more of a "god complex" thing than a gay thing. I don't doubt the syndrome that you speak of, but I would doubt it here.
Garth: I don't think a professional accreditation constitutes God's judgement seat, I just don't think LCM is insane. Think about it: in a court of law, if you're insane then you're unfit to stand trial for a crime. Some here at GSC believe LCM should be brought up on criminal charges for some of his actions. If he's really insane, that'll never happen. And if he's sane enough to stand trial then he's sane enough to have the capacity to genuinely repent of his sins. You can't have it both ways.
It's possible that some of the 10th may remember a Sunday Night service in Emporia. I can't for the life of me remember what Craig was teaching-but one phrase stood out-and yes, he really did say this:
"My greatest fear is that devil spirits will take over my vocal chords".
It becomes rather interesting when one considers his wife's sexual proclivities in light of his "homo purge"...Lcm trashed the wow program because he thought there were too many "homos" in the group...he ran off a LOT of good people based on "spiritual suspicion", accusing them of being "homos"...in fact loyboy became obsessed with rooting out all the "homos" he could...
...when all the time he KNEW that his own wife was gay?...was he somehow, subconsciously, trying to "purge" his own life? Did he think that his vicious attitude towards gays would help to "reform" his wife?...or was it all just a smoke screen, an inside joke?...Talk about being a hypocrite!
Frankly Johniam, when folks here are saying that Martindale is insane, irrevocably or otherwise, I think that its just a matter of common sense not to take it so seriously to the clinical level. I know that nobody here is making that kind of professional judgement, and when YOU stop to think about it, you'd know that too.
Groucho,
Perhaps it was his own impotent way of attempting to deal with his wife's 'friendships'. He knows he can't do anything about Donna/Rosalie, so what does he do? Show the world that he still has the 'brass ones' by taking his anti-homosexual anger/frustrations out on those who he is able to afflict.
And umm, Groucho. Thank you so kindly for the consideration that if "VP had given the presidency to Jonny Lingo, we wouldn't be having this discussion", or whatever it is that you said. All I can tell you is this:
If VPW had given me the ministry, the first thing I would have done was to wait for him to pass away, and then, I would have dropped that heavy mantle on the shoulders of Donny Fugit!
And then we'd a been doin all right! We'd a been "Kickin The Hawgs And Praisin The Lord!" And...
"Blue Skies And Green Grass, Make for a Pritt-ee Daayyy....."
Damn I miss that man! He was to me what The Way was supposed to be all about. I can still see him now, out there in that pond in the rowboat "serenading the Lord with his git-tar...."
Johnny...Oh yes, I remember Donny Fugit very well. He was a refreshing departure from the "normal" twi leader...A guy with a heart for God, no ulterior motives, kind, funny, a free spirit in the midst of all the twi clones. I recall Donny telling us all a story about how he was driving a car with Veepee sitting in the passenger seat, when suddenly he veered the car into a deep mud puddle and made a horrendous splash...Veepee asked him "what the hell did you do that for?"...Donny replied, "I just wanted you to see what it felt like to do LSD".
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Mister P-Mosh
That makes sense then, and an even bigger compliment to her since she was single at the time but still said no.
The way you worded it was ambiguous and that is how it sounded. Just from knowing your words here, you didn't seem like the type that would have let anyone get away with something like that, so it seemed odd. In any case, as you said, she stood her ground and he left her alone.
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rascal
Naw Groucho, I think they are referring to the enraged husband posted that his wife was discovered to have hpv...(a virus I believe that can cause cervical cancer).
It was his contention that she had been infected by her only other partner (lcm).
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Sunesis
I too was put in the backrub sitation twice while on staff at Emporia and he had come to visit. This was '81 or '82. It was late at night, we ran into each other and he told me he needed a backrub. You must realize, for those of us on staff, backrubs were common, daily occurrences - nothing sexual, we just all gave backrubs. The first time I thought it was a fluke and got up and left - I had to get up early the next morning. I thought nothing of it.
The second time he was more overt about what he wanted, I then looked him square in the eye and said, your wife is a friend of mine, I will not betray her, and I left. We were still friends after that.
But over the years we had the type of relationship where we could just sit down, hang out and talk about stuff. I think if he liked you (and I don't know why he did, he just did from the time I entered the corps - and it wasn't in a sexual way), and you could hang out with him, he was a totally different guy in private. I also think with females, he was more relaxed - didn't have be a macho jock.
I do remember him telling me, since I was from NY, right outside the City, about his time spent in NYC as a church missionary. He had been very gung ho about it and I guess did a really good job. But I think the City and great poverty overwhelmed him. He was a serious committed Christian from his youth I think. Willing to be a "missionary" and go where needed to do God's will.
But, as others said, he lost it. I watched his slow descent.
I feel, when he met VPW, he had a deep psychological need for a father figure, and VP fulfilled that role. I know LCM fell in love deeply with one woman, maybe a second before his "arranged" marriage with Donna. I think Donna tried to play at loving him and being a good wife, but her women friends were always more important. That would drive a man nuts right there. I know one of Donna's friends told me, shortly after they were married, when he learned she was still sleeping with her best friend (not Rosie - this was earlier) while he travelled, he was shocked, hurt and upset.
LCM was in way over his head when he was nominated President. He was lost. When POP came out, they had him on medications and were afraid he'd commit suicide. He was totally drugged out that corps week and rock. Both sets of parents (Donna's and LCM's) had severe reservations about them taking over the ministry. They thought they were too young and immature to be handling such money and power - this was told to me by one of Donna's sisters. They were right.
I don't know, now that I think about it, its not as cut and dried as VPW.
I am only talking about up to '84 when I left staff at H.Q. - then on the field I rarely saw him.
Personally, I think as a youth, Craig did love God. I think he fell in with the wrong ministry. He was not a womanizer, that was something VP had to teach him and make him see it was ok. Under VP's tutelage, LCM became corrupted. I think after the fog years, it sounds like LCM came back with a vengance and decided he was Joshua and every woman in the kingdom was his. He was twice the child of hell VP was. His conscience was seared.
I do not think he was the con man VPW was. VP started TWI to make money - period. LCM joined because he loved God and thought he had found the answer - two different motivations.
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outandabout
JL, why the heck did the limb leader pour beer down your pants? That is bizarre....
What an a$$hole.
Anyway, one thing that stands out in my memory about Craig is how, when he was inaugurated, his whole speech was ALL ABOUT HIM, how the number two took such a meaningful place in his life...
Yeah, and then he turned TWI into a big pile of Number 2.
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Sunesis
Now that I think about it.
VPW had no conscience - his desires were money and sex.
LCM had a conscience. His desire (originally) was to serve God and people.
VPW didn't need to be made into a wolf in sheep's clothing, he already was.
LCM had to be made into one - subtly. I believe, in some respects, his breakdowns were crises of conscience. Literally pushing away that which he knew to be right - and living with himself afterwards. His total destruction of other people's lives were the results of his seared conscience.
Thus, I think, as VPW made LCM in his image, God, if LCM ever repented, could undo and remake LCM into what he should have been - since he had/has? a conscience.
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oldiesman
Thanks Sunesis for sharing your personal moments with LCM and a thumbs up to you for resisting and saying "no."
Geeze, wouldn't it have been good for LCM to marry someone who he was sexually compatible with? That might have helped, who knows.
It makes sense that LCM was corrupted along the way by VPW's doctrine (or lack thereof) of no consequences for adultery. I don't think LCM became an adulterer until the very late '70's. LCM trusted VPW so much I guess he must have thought he was right about everything, even this.
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rascal
Thanks Sunises, that puts lcm in a light that I can understand and maybe even feel a little compassion for.
I understand being decieved and utilized by a mog that you trust.
I understand marrying because the almighty mog said that it was *best* in spite of your feelings and misgivings....just one more decision vpw shoved down willing throats that was tragically wrong.
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J0nny Ling0
Mr P-Mosh said;
You are right Mosh, I did slip up on the grammar and worded it wrong. Sorry for the mis-lead. And thanks for the compliment towards my wife. And thank you too Oldiesman..
And Sunesis, you and I have talked of this before, the approach for sex by LCM thing, as well as your friendship with Craig. You said something this time that I didn't quite get. You said;
And so, I guess I'm a bit slow here, but I guess you're saying that Donna had a gay relationship with whomever?
And so knowing Craig, this must have made him absolutely crazy, being the big jock boy that he always was. And, as you say, if he had had a true love before his arranged marriage, then he must have been doubly hurt.
And thank you for your thoughtful and honest take on this subject. You do not hold back at all from saying what Craig became, for you said;
But you, because of your one time friendship with him also recognize and portray thoughtfully that he was at one time a man with a heart. From my lesser experiences around him, I see him that way as well.
For you all who were recipients of his many "twice the child of hell" depradations, I can see why you are still pi$$ed about it all. But to deny something that possibly could have been, i.e., that Craig at one time had been a good guy, isn't necessarily right either. Things happened the way they happened. It may be fun to snipe and spew things about him "because now you can", but then again, if this thread is about "Who Was LCM?", then maybe it might be to your benefit to see him as he was and then became.
I, at one time was a good hearted eighteen year old boy when I first went to Twig. I don't think I had a mean bone in me. I was all idealistic and wanted nothing more than to bask in and share the love of God that I found amongst the exuberant and idealistic WOWs that I first met in The Way. Just ask Sunesis, for she was one of them. And a sweet beautiful lassie she was and no doubt still is!
But as I entered into the machinery of the hierarchy, my purity began to fade, and I became someone that I did not desire to be. Fortunately I did not fade too far, for my idealism and love for God, and my love for Love kept me from comitting to the selfishness found in the upper echelons. The closer I got to the top, the uglier it appeared, and like Sunesis, and like many of you, I finally checked out.
At any rate, I think that Craig at one time loved God, but was decieved into becoming a deciever.
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justloafing
Just from reading about lcm and how some think he could come down to earth and repent. He may, repent, I just don't see it happening. If he still is being paid and lives in a twi house. I don't ever expect to hear a public apology with the BOD that is running twi now. They were to involved in the coverup.
Maybe a new BOT will let the cat out of the bag? I doubt it very much since they are hand choosen and very well groomed. Lets hope that two bit outfit closes before then.
As far as lcm himself as far as repenting to God. Maybe but I bet he has a million excuses why he did what he did so as to make it valad in his own mind. I just can't fathom him thinking it was right when he was doing his preditor act or any of his other actions. If he did not think it was wrong what would change his mind today? After all it was a 5 senses that got him thrown out not a Godly one. He blames the world IMHO not himself.
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rascal
Yeah Johnny L, You didn`t fade too far away from your ideal, many of us did not...lcm had the same opportunity but was proven weak.
It is understandible that he would then be vulnerable to a strong personality such as vpw.
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Mister P-Mosh
No problem, and I do it all the time myself (including fairly recently where I get hell for it too.)
As far as the compliment to your wife goes, even though you and I disagree strongly on a lot of religious and political issues, I do recognize that you are a good person and do what you feel is the best in life. You can't be faulted for that, and if more people lived like that the world would be a better place.
I've heard these accusations before as well, and although I never had any evidence of any kind against her (I never even knew her) she did get much more butch over the years after you left to a point where when I left TWI she might as well have just gotten the operation and been done with it. Her public persona was very masculine, and at first I thought it was based off of LCM, but I later realized that he seemed to be much more "sensitive" and emotional in public than she is.
If she was gay or bi, that would definitely explain his obsession with homosexuality, and in particular his definition of Eve's sin. One could come up with all sorts of possible scenarios and conspiracy theories, but I doubt most of us, if any of us, on this site have the information to really be informed on that.
You would have been amazed at what the 90's in TWI were like. People who I considered to be bedrocks of my local area were suddenly "old wineskins" and M&A because they didn't adapt to the new fearful witch hunt mentality. LCM was not personally responsible for all of the evil committed in TWI at that time, but he definitely set the mood and empowered people who carried the things out that happened. Some of us are against LCM not because of his direct actions against us (because there are none for many of us) but because of his leadership and direction which lead to a lot of evil being committed. I was in TWI as a child in the 80's, and I remember how it used to be and then what it became in the 90's. The organization shed most of the good people that it had, and the only people left were either oppressors with chips on their shoulders or good people who were mentally enslaved and tricked into following TWI out of fear.
We could say the same about anyone who has done great harm though. Gacy was a murderer who hid bodies in his basement, but he also did good too by volunteering to be a clown for sick children. He did great evil as well as good, but the good that he did in no way made up for the evil.
It's also pointless to reflect on what might have been when something else entirely happened and there's no way to change it. LCM could have grown up to be a good guy, but he descended really far to a point where he would have to make radical changes to even begin to make up for what he did. So far, he's failed to even do that. I think that your "turn the other cheek" story on this thread was very noble, and it shows your character, but at the same time you would not have been condemned had you punched the guy in the face. You did come out looking better because of it, but a key difference was that the region coordinator apologized to you. If he felt remorse, then that is a good thing. LCM has only shown regret for being caught thus far, and has not indicated any real remorse. Even his actions are still covered up in TWI to where most of it's followers don't really know what happened. They think that he had one affair, and that she probably came on to him, and then she got greedy and wanted to sue TWI. If he were to own up to his actions, particularly to do so publicly, that would be a good start.
I wish there was a way to show you just how far he went ultimately, because you left TWI before the depth of his debauchery and evil. You might still be willing to forgive him if you could have seen it first hand, but you would not do so very easily.
But as I entered into the machinery of the hierarchy, my purity began to fade, and I became someone that I did not desire to be. Fortunately I did not fade too far, for my idealism and love for God, and my love for Love kept me from comitting to the selfishness found in the upper echelons. The closer I got to the top, the uglier it appeared, and like Sunesis, and like many of you, I finally checked out.
I don't think you ever actively participated in the evil that some did. I don't think that you ever kicked people out of a twig, broke up families, raped, or any of those things. We all are responsible for whatever evil we committed while in TWI, but some things are much worse than others. Your story is probably the typical one of many who have been in TWI for any period of time, and I doubt anyone here will fault you for that.
The Shakespeare play "MacBeth" is very similar and mirrors some of the things that LCM did, at least metaphorically speaking. A good man became an evil king, and his downfall was dramatic.
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Sunesis
Nice post P-Mosh - we agree!
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Nice post for you too Jonny. I will say, you were one of the sweetest believers I ever met - you truly had no guile.
Jonny, no, I was not saying DM has having a gay relationship. She had one super best friend she had slept with platonically for years, during the corps and after. That person is now married with children. VPW encouraged this among the women of the early corps. I guess the reason we were so surprised about Craig being upset, is because everyone knew it, everyone knew who this friend was - certainly LCM did, everyone knew they slept together often, so we all assumed LCM knew it too and was fine with it. So it was surprising to hear he was upset. The woman who told me thought it was funny LCM was upset. Still, a new marriage, I could understand this being a blow to someone's ego - most people don't like sharing their loved ones in that way.
I saw Craig start weirding out. Dressing in those all white outfits, preparing to dance in AOS, screwing cast members. He told one group in the AOS rehearsals, after he threw a hissy fit, that "I'm not Jesus Christ - yet." That says it all. It really does. He really thought he was getting there - as spiritual as Christ was.
I knew he was losing it when at a meeting when I had left HQ staff and was now on the field, during the AOS production he was training or maybe even dancing in by then, he showed up in this all white shiny, flowy, parachute type material jogging outfit for a meeting, acting like he was some kind of god - an Adonis - it was ego at its peak and very theatrical. I couldn't believe any grown man would dress like that in public. I looked at the outfit, his attitude and thought, boy, he's gone off the deep end. The sad thing is, he thought this was impressive. I think the white - to him - symbolized some kind of spiritual purity - it was just weird I tell ya.
He had to bury and shove aside his true self to be what he became, and once he made the decision, we went for everything with a vengence. I was shocked when years ago I read about TWI II. I can't imagine what it was like.
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Trefor Heywood
I wonder if he actually had homosexual desires himself - some people do fight it by attacking the whole caboodle and also because he tried to prove to himself that he was hetero by screwing as many different women as possible.
It's not as wierd as you might think - when I was in TWI I was in a sexual relationship with a woman just to try to prove to myself I was a "normal" man of God.
And was he using these weird costumes as a way to get in touch with his feminine side?
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Ham
Well, that WOULD explain the obsession with tights..
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Trefor Heywood
There are well-documented cases of this syndrome - J Edgar Hoover being another example.
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J0nny Ling0
Umm...Somehow I doubt it Trefor. I think he really actually hated 'em. Thought of 'em as disgusting.
But I too remember that white suit at some public meeting that he showed up at. It really was weird.
I also have a friend who, while putting her five year old son to bed, and telling him that it was time to pray, her kid came up with the sacriest saying. He said; "Why do we have to pray to God Mom, Martindale will take care of us!" He also ran around with a rainbow headband and doing "karate" moves..
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Personally, I think it was more of a "god complex" thing than a gay thing. I don't doubt the syndrome that you speak of, but I would doubt it here.
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J0nny Ling0
Umm that word was supposed to be "scariest", not "sacriest".
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johniam
Garth: I don't think a professional accreditation constitutes God's judgement seat, I just don't think LCM is insane. Think about it: in a court of law, if you're insane then you're unfit to stand trial for a crime. Some here at GSC believe LCM should be brought up on criminal charges for some of his actions. If he's really insane, that'll never happen. And if he's sane enough to stand trial then he's sane enough to have the capacity to genuinely repent of his sins. You can't have it both ways.
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topoftheworld
It's possible that some of the 10th may remember a Sunday Night service in Emporia. I can't for the life of me remember what Craig was teaching-but one phrase stood out-and yes, he really did say this:
"My greatest fear is that devil spirits will take over my vocal chords".
I guess believing does equal receiving, huh?
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GrouchoMarxJr
It becomes rather interesting when one considers his wife's sexual proclivities in light of his "homo purge"...Lcm trashed the wow program because he thought there were too many "homos" in the group...he ran off a LOT of good people based on "spiritual suspicion", accusing them of being "homos"...in fact loyboy became obsessed with rooting out all the "homos" he could...
...when all the time he KNEW that his own wife was gay?...was he somehow, subconsciously, trying to "purge" his own life? Did he think that his vicious attitude towards gays would help to "reform" his wife?...or was it all just a smoke screen, an inside joke?...Talk about being a hypocrite!
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GarthP2000
Frankly Johniam, when folks here are saying that Martindale is insane, irrevocably or otherwise, I think that its just a matter of common sense not to take it so seriously to the clinical level. I know that nobody here is making that kind of professional judgement, and when YOU stop to think about it, you'd know that too.
Groucho,
Perhaps it was his own impotent way of attempting to deal with his wife's 'friendships'. He knows he can't do anything about Donna/Rosalie, so what does he do? Show the world that he still has the 'brass ones' by taking his anti-homosexual anger/frustrations out on those who he is able to afflict.
All in all, sad. Very sad.
:(-->
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J0nny Ling0
And umm, Groucho. Thank you so kindly for the consideration that if "VP had given the presidency to Jonny Lingo, we wouldn't be having this discussion", or whatever it is that you said. All I can tell you is this:
If VPW had given me the ministry, the first thing I would have done was to wait for him to pass away, and then, I would have dropped that heavy mantle on the shoulders of Donny Fugit!
And then we'd a been doin all right! We'd a been "Kickin The Hawgs And Praisin The Lord!" And...
"Blue Skies And Green Grass, Make for a Pritt-ee Daayyy....."
Damn I miss that man! He was to me what The Way was supposed to be all about. I can still see him now, out there in that pond in the rowboat "serenading the Lord with his git-tar...."
God bless him!
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Trefor Heywood
It's your right to disagree of course Jonny but I still harbour my own secret suspicions
:D-->
At least they are more logical than LCM's own "spiritual" ones!
;)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Johnny...Oh yes, I remember Donny Fugit very well. He was a refreshing departure from the "normal" twi leader...A guy with a heart for God, no ulterior motives, kind, funny, a free spirit in the midst of all the twi clones. I recall Donny telling us all a story about how he was driving a car with Veepee sitting in the passenger seat, when suddenly he veered the car into a deep mud puddle and made a horrendous splash...Veepee asked him "what the hell did you do that for?"...Donny replied, "I just wanted you to see what it felt like to do LSD".
...A wonderful man...sadly missed.
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