Why I have mixed feelings about VPW....

[Biblefan Dave]

I have found that generally the simplest solution is the best solution to life's problems and questions. Simple tends to be black and white.

Yet, the Bible is a very complex (not necessarily complicated, but complex) book. If it's origins are truly of God (and I believe that they are), it's impossible for the human mind to completely grasp that of an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God. Thus, sometimes that simplest solution to some Biblical questions is to admit that we don't know and God will show us the answer if we need to know.

We also live in a world full of complicated people. People have all kinds of different religions, beliefs, opinions, habits, preferences, obsessions, addictions, backgrounds, environmental factors, family situations, etc. 2 people of roughly the same age can grow up in the same neighborhood, yet 1 can became a minister and the other can become a serial killer. 1 Muslim from the same mosque can became a radical terrorist while the other simply goes about living the best possible life that he/she can.

God is not the one who complicated our lives, people do, and we do it to ourselves.

It would have been simpler in TWI to simply set forth a principle. If we are to get "to whom addressed" correct, then how could tithing possibly apply to the Church Administration? If we are not to add a word to the Word, change, or delete words in the Word, how can we get 15% as a minimum standard for giving?

Are there exceptions to many rules? Yes, there are. When Jesus spoke to the Jews, does that mean that only Jews can heed and apply what was heard? No, we can always learn from sound principles whether they are directly addressed to us or simply heard as told to someone else.

The simplest approach to life is usually the best. The freer we are from hate, guilt, bitterness, shame, unworthiness, and other negative feelings and emotions, the clearer we will be to focus to how we can do God's will. Yet, we cannot be afraid of negative emotions. If a loved one dies, we can feel free to grieve. If our relationship are troubled, we can certainly deal with those feelings and emotions rather than try to bury them in denial.

I have no bitterness toward TWI or VPW. I am doing my best to exercise forgiveness toward LCM. I do not want bad things to happen to LCM, Rosalie, Donna Martindale, or anyone else. Though the idea might repulse some, have people ever given the thought of praying for some of these people? If there is ever anyone who needs a lot of prayer, LCM and Donna Martindale certainly need prayer. Rosalie Rivenbark needs prayer. Heck, we all do.

[satori001]

So how does praying for these dirtbags actually help? Does God say, "I'd really like to help a poor family in need, but Biblefan Dave is praying for this rich, miserable, grasping, self-aggrandizing hypocrite over at TWI, so now I have to waste a perfectly good blessing on that old bag. Gimme a break, Dave. Sometimes it sucks to be Me."

Maybe praying for Rosalie isn't as important as praying for something important.

[johniam]

God isn't human: he's all knowing, all powerful, everywhere present, and, thankfully, all love. Such a God does not have time constraints, or impatience, or anything else that restricts humans. People can change. We'll probably be amazed to find out how often we were prayed for at the return.

[satori001]

Man, I wish that were true. It would make a good movie though.

[J0nny Ling0]

I, Jonny Lingo, echo this sentiment as presented by LindaZ:

quote:

Good question, Chas.

I have mixed feelings, too. I did know him and liked him. I worked closely with him on a few occasions and had other one-on-one time with him, and he spent quite a bit of time with us at the Indiana Campus. He always treated me and my son and the rest of my family with respect and kindness. (And no, before anyone says it, that doesn't mean the reprehensible things he did are negated by that.)

I knew nothing about the shenanigans going on behind the scenes, and when I heard from women I knew and respected about the things he did to them, I was angry at him for not controlling his lusts and behavior. But by then he was long dead, so I couldn't tell him so.

Despite that, I'm still thankful for what I learned in PFAL. I don't still believe all of it, but that class really woke me up. I had never respected God except when I was a child, and I no longer thought God gave two hoots about me until I took that class.

I know, I know, he was sloppy in documenting his sources. He had enough education to have done a better job of that, but the bottom line is that the man could teach the Bible in a way that reached me. For whatever reason, he got through to me with the message of God's love and goodness and power like no one ever had.

Unlike many who post here, I wasn't a teeneager looking for a father substitute or someone to idolize or a group to make me feel I belonged. I was a young divorced mother who was yearning to know whether I could have a real relationship with God and who needed to get my act together so I could be a good mom. I wasn't disappointed.

There was recently a thread about Billy Graham and what an honorable man he is. I have no reason to doubt that, and I'm glad he could gain such acclaim without giving in to the temptations that come with it. But Billy Graham never reached me. I watched him on TV with my parents. I even went to one of his crusades. To me it was just another Baptist altar call, only in a stadium, and I'd been through a number of those. No substance. Take it on faith because I say so. It left me cold.

So anyway, I figure God's capable of dealing with VPW. Whether the good things he did will be wiped out by the bad things he did, I don't know. But I trust that God does.

ChasUfarley,

Hold to the good, destroy the chaff, and remember, forgiveness is better than bitterness. VPW is dead. Bitterness towards him will never even be noticed by him, yet it will "eat at you as doth a cankar" if you hold on to it. Not that you are holding on to it, but, the opposite of thankfulness and lack of forgiveness leads to bitterness. I, as well as you, think that the good is better than the bad...

JL

[dmiller]

quote:

So how does praying for these dirtbags actually help? Does God say, "I'd really like to help a poor family in need, but Biblefan Dave is praying for this rich, miserable, grasping, self-aggrandizing hypocrite over at TWI, so now I have to waste a perfectly good blessing on that old bag. Gimme a break, Dave. Sometimes it sucks to be Me."

Maybe praying for Rosalie isn't as important as praying for something important.

And don't forget to add -- Satori, that Jesus might have said the same thing about *dying for dirtbags like these*. If you don't love em, don't pray for them. But in doing so - you make yourself to be a Pharisee.

:)--> :)-->

David

(Not *Biblefan Dave*, but another David -- *dmiller*)

[dmiller]

And (while I am on a *roll* here) -- what do you think we are praying for???? More *Abudance*??? He!! no -- it is for forgiveness, repentance, and a return to that which is right.

The derelict in the street may garner your prayers for deliverance, but both the derelict in the street, as well as the derelicts in charge of twi are deserving of such.

Prayer never hurt anyone, neither the giver thereof, nor the recipient.

If you can't pray for your enemies, how can you honestly pray for your friends? My contention is that you cannot.

Selective prayer is not something that is acceptable, and if you don't realize this, I will pray for YOU!

David

[TheInvisibleDan]

quote:

Originally posted by satori001:

So how does praying for these dirtbags actually help? Does God say, "I'd really like to help a poor family in need, but Biblefan Dave is praying for this rich, miserable, grasping, self-aggrandizing hypocrite over at TWI, so now I have to waste a perfectly good blessing on that old bag. Gimme a break, Dave. Sometimes it sucks to be Me."

Maybe praying for Rosalie isn't as important as praying for something important.

It will only work if her heart grows three times its size. In which case she'll either

become an enlightened Grinch who will feed that poor family - or her heart will burst out of its chest, which would make one hell of a bloody mess.

[rascal]

Seems to me that they have been the recipients of earnest prayers from tens of thousands of people for many decades.

It doesn`t appear to me that the millions of hours of prayers have had much effect.....they have continued to embrace evil......and continued to hold people in bondage with scripture and God`s name.

I just don`t see squandering anything else on these folk, be it prayer, money or time.

They are living in darkness and thinking that they are loving it.

[ToadFriend]

Linda Z ... well put. You capsulized my feelings in a nutshell.

ToadFriend

[dmiller]

quote:

It doesn`t appear to me that the millions of hours of prayers have had much effect.....they have continued to embrace evil.....

Point taken, Rascal. :(-->

David