VP knew he couldn't sell water in the desert to 60s youth with a holier than thou attitude. PFAL has a lot of self depreciating humor in it. (Glad I don't get paid for my stories, etc.) LCM was apparently so full of himself he couldn't see it.
Also, VP had vision; during my AC (Emporia, '84) VP showed old pilot films of PFAL from '63 or so. Each take of session 1 segment 1 had him saying, "Welcome to this internationally famous class on power for abundant living!" Even VP was laughing while it played, but at least he saw the thing going somewhere. LCM only put WAP together to keep the dwindling flock he still had intact enough to keep him living abundantly.
I read POP again recently. If I read that right, there was a meeting in late '87 with CG and the THEN trustees in which LCM admitted that he only wanted to run the ministry so that the trustees could guarantee they'd continue to have the lifestyles they were used to. Sure seems to have played out that way.
Good points, one and all. In my mind, the bottom line is that people liked Veepee and looked at him like a father/grandfather figure...while snarly old loy was much too abrasive and never gave the impression that he gave a rats foot about anyone.
Also, Wierwille was the founder, shrouded in legendary tales...while loyboy was one of us...we were his peers and we watched him from the beginning as a young guy...there was nothing "father-like" about him.
I was at advanced class 84 as well. Funny to think about being at the same events with you folks maybe sharing a meal or a swim together:-)
Yeah vp the fatherly figure, concerned for our welfare...yeah, I bought that...s`what made te allegations against him and twi seem so rediculous....I always felt like Craig was trying to sell me something....never felt I could trust him....I guess his biggest problem was that he just couldn`t play the game as well as his mentor.
Ljn: I can't remember the name of our twig, but it was really stupid whatever it was. The cordo of it was David Langworthy who later was in the 15th corps. He was OK. Me and one of the guys went to Pizza Hut on middle Saturday and had a pitcher of beer. I remember that our twig lined up in close proximity with a girls twig called the 24 carat rubies. Was that your twig Rascal? Another girls twig held up a sign that said "Foxes have holes" Luke 8:58 or something like that.
Over all it was a fun 2 weeks, but in retrospect it was poignant since it was VPs last one. All moot now though.
In all fairness though, to me only part of PFAL was horse stuff. On the other hand, I found little in WAP that wasn't. I did actually get something good out of PFAL, just have spent the past couple years coughing up the junk that came with the good. I can't think of anything from WAP worth remembering. The ridiculous "science" of Loy, good grief.
The debil bringing the ice, the one big land mass, the Eve is/was a lesbo thing, not worth remembering. The "subtle" conditioning- after ranting in a FOUNDATIONAL class, ole loy saying that you oughta "get used to this kind of presentation"- ptooie.
In the simplest of terms -- PFAL was based in scripture and scriptures were referenced to build to conclusions. WAP took LCMs looney idea's and THEN tried to stuff scriptures in place to validate them -- like the teaching about Eve being a dyke and doin' it with a serpent while a painting by Michaelangelo (sp) was used to prove it was true...
It was like watching that comedian from SNL who played the guy who lied all the time...
Uh, yeah... and then Eve, uh, decided she would, uh, do it with a... uh... half-snake woman... yeah! That's it! Like, uh, in this painting. Yeah, that's right!
Lemme put it another way...
When PFAL was over, I was glad I had taken it and felt I had something from it.
Uh, yeah... and then Eve, uh, decided she would, uh, do it with a... uh... half-snake woman... yeah! That's it! Like, uh, in this painting. Yeah, that's right!
Lemme put it another way...
When PFAL was over, I was glad I had taken it and felt I had something from it.
When WAP was over, I was just glad.
*giggle* Was that really taught or are you just making a joke? :)--> Either way its funny!
Both Wierwille and Martindale played fast and loose with definitions of Greek and Hebrew words.
Wierwille spent hours of teaching in PFAL convincing you that he knew what he was talking about. How many sessions does he say basically the same thing over and over: The bible is God's Word and is error-free in the original? It's got to be most of the first three sessions, 7 or 8 hours. He did it by starting simple: reading straight from the bible. When he came to a subject where he differed from mainstream Christianity, he still started out by "reading what was written". It wasn't until session four that he started reaching into his bag of tricks with moving commas and interlinears and shifty definitions. But by then, he had established himself as being a straight shooter, interested only in getting back to "the Word"; he built trust in himself and mistrust of the churches. By session twelve he could have told us anything and we'd have believed him. We believed his definitions, his claims about what "the original" said, and his questionable interpretations because he had laid a foundation.
Martindale laid no such foundation. Not only did his wacky definitions and doctrines seem crazy to most people with enough gray matter to tip a postal scale, but they did not stand up to the so-called research principles that he was supposedly peddling.
I'm happy to say that I never had to sit through king okie's wap class...listening to him rant and rave during the late 70's was quite enough for me.
I have read numerous posts concerning the wap class, and I must say, that it's a real testament as to how truly stupid and arrogant the man was.
Martindale seemed to delight in coming up with things on his own. New "insights" that only HIS spiritual mind was able to ascertain...While the rest of us weren't even competent enough to handle our own financial decisions, king okie was receiving divine revelation, that revealed the hidden and deep secrets of life...like Eve being a lesbian.
Well LCM was not a professional speaker (maybe a professional screamer or spitter) and his presentation skills , such as they were, lacked polish and he did not know how to work a crowd. He knew this and the way he dealt with was to cop the angry,athelete of the spirit thing as some type of defense mechanism.
As we know LCM didn't have the opportunity to make wild claims as to his biblical research career having spent much time with people he wound up screaming at a lot. So while he could have said he did this and studied that and had a religious epiphany ( as did VPW) many would have known it was a lie. VPW was so much older than most people and did have experience in the preaching gig so it wasn't a stretch to see him in that role. LCM was clumsy, inarticulate, and uneducated in any theology except that offerred by TWI. He had "expert" knowledge of the VPW stuff and perhaps felt he had to somehow top that.
The odd thing is that I though his anti-homosexual thing was just a fad for him. I never expected for him to make it the primary aspect of himself and his presidency. He simply could not let go of that concept and it seemed to fascinate him. He seemed obssessed with men being with men. Interesting slant for a preacher who is supposedly there to promote the abundant life. How does constantly bashing homosexuals teach anyone anything about living abundantly ?
Well not having WAP I cannot say where it fails or how it compares. Can anyone tell me how long WAP as ? Was it 12 sessions , 3 hrs each ?
PFAL was tough to sit through it could have EASILY been edited down significantly and it would have been better. "Better" in the sense of presentation as opposed to being "better" in its so called "message".
The only class I ever enjoyed with TWI was the Dealing With The Adversary class. For whatever reason I found it to be entertaining and somewhat interesting (though I know others who thought it was a complete snore). Maybe it was the first time I saw someone other than VPW teach and Walter was less heavy handed). I like the section in the class where he has someone demonstrating how "the word" can be changed to suit one's purpose. And the guy comes on set, steals something, and the rationalization is well it says in the bible "let him that stole, steal [no more]". Of course he leaves off the last two words. Corny ? Yes. maybe I was just tired and easily amused.
SO they're still running this flopped "WAP" class for the two or three people they still might get a year? amazing. One would have thought the WAP class would have been withdrawn after they gave LCM the boot.
Or that they might have concentrated solely on becoming a preservation society for VPW's stuff,
and marketing it to the offshoots and VP worshipers and what not.
For one thing it was just too heavy. I believe in session 1 or 2 he got right into confronting new people about the horrors of homosexuality and the trinity. And I think even abortion was addressed early on (it's not murder at all you know according to his teaching.)
Now that will attract lots of new people.... yeah right!
Furthermore, it was jut too perfect. Every flower petal was in perfect place. There was not a spec of dust anywhere. And those brand new million dollar cameras caught every fake smile and every forced emotion from the "master teacher". It was sickeningly perfect in every way. Suspiciously perfect!
Also in my opionion it was not his own but rather a copy of PFAL with major embellishments. He should have just made up his own class from his own inspiration. But personally I did not sense much inspiration at all.
Now lets get to the doctrine. Basically it sucked in my opinion. Too much to go into here ranging from Eve being a lesbo to the millions of years of Geological Plate Tectonics happening ovenight thanks to some dude with a funny name Peleg I think.
In spite of its man made "perfection" it was a failure for many, many reasons.
John R.
PS - the only good thing about it was the sessions were only 2 hours or so plus a break instead of the 3 in PFAL. With our busy American culture I think they learned that lesson. No one has that kind of time.
Also in my opionion it was not his own but rather a copy of PFAL with major embellishments. He should have just made up his own class from his own inspiration. But personally I did not sense much inspiration at all.
Neither did I.
Plus the treatment of "the law of believing"- he was better off just leaving it alone. "Faithfulness in believing" just did not make any more sense than "faith".
As far as his "inspiration" is concerned, he would have done a lot better sticking ice down his pants..
I sat through both, multiple times. Horrible. However, I noticed that for PFAL, people wanted to sit through it again and the places where that class was held would be packed. With WAP, they would basically yell at us for not taking it often enough and trying to make us sound like we were letting God down by not wasting another month of weekends to take it. I think that they wanted us to take it for 1) keeping us busy with TWI's business so we wouldn't see how bad things were, and 2) to make it appear to everyone that classes were full, even though the only new students are kids of people in TWI.
There were not a lot of WayAP classes run before I got kicked out in 2001.
I believe that the last year that PFAL was run in TWI was the 94/95 "ministry year", right after the WOW program was cancelled and right before the ROA was canned.
WayAP was run for PFAL grads only in 95/96, with the Way Corps going first, and was run for new people in 96/97. Our state ran two grad classes in January and February 1996, and did not scrape up enough people until over three years later, in June of 1999. Included in the class were three PFAL grads who had just started participating in TWI after several years away, the new wife of one of these grads, and my son's girlfriend.
In 2001 we ran a "live" class. New students were the girlfriend of another young man in our fellowship, an immigrant from Togo who was a PFAL grad, and two children of grads.
No really new people.
To be fair, despite back-to-back PFAL classes in the 70's and 80's, the 90's did not see a lot of PFAL action. A class was run in 1990 with eight people, five who were children of grads. Another class did not run until over three years later; one of my sons had been paid up for two years when he took it. The next classes was not until two years after that, when we managed to run three classes of seven people each in one year. Other than one family, no one stuck around much past session 12.
I sat through both, multiple times. Horrible. However, I noticed that for PFAL, people wanted to sit through it again and the places where that class was held would be packed. With WAP, they would basically yell at us for not taking it often enough and trying to make us sound like we were letting God down by not wasting another month of weekends to take it. I think that they wanted us to take it for 1) keeping us busy with TWI's business so we wouldn't see how bad things were, and 2) to make it appear to everyone that classes were full, even though the only new students are kids of people in TWI.
Bingo. It was just awful. When I sat through the "grad" class, there was a collective silence when it was done. As if everyone was thinking "Uh oh, this stinks but I better think of something nice to say." I kept writing down question after question for my LC. At first the response was "it's new material, work it and you'll get it." Later, my questions just got ignored. Finally, it was obvious that there was NO interest in even trying to pretend that this c**p made any sense. Even the corpse shrugged their shoulders in private. After that, the brow beatings started to shove you into those folding torture chairs. The only class crew I was on was for 6 students, 4 of whom were grad kids. Two were girl/boyfriends of grad teens. The last person was some hopeless case who seemed to just want a free meal. When the free food and attention stopped, he was gone.
On the funny side, the grads started to come up with some original excuses to not be there. "My kid has a big project for school" was a common one. Not that many were run. The few that did were run as LIMB class! It took the whole state to scrape together one class about every 18 months.
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johniam
VP knew he couldn't sell water in the desert to 60s youth with a holier than thou attitude. PFAL has a lot of self depreciating humor in it. (Glad I don't get paid for my stories, etc.) LCM was apparently so full of himself he couldn't see it.
Also, VP had vision; during my AC (Emporia, '84) VP showed old pilot films of PFAL from '63 or so. Each take of session 1 segment 1 had him saying, "Welcome to this internationally famous class on power for abundant living!" Even VP was laughing while it played, but at least he saw the thing going somewhere. LCM only put WAP together to keep the dwindling flock he still had intact enough to keep him living abundantly.
I read POP again recently. If I read that right, there was a meeting in late '87 with CG and the THEN trustees in which LCM admitted that he only wanted to run the ministry so that the trustees could guarantee they'd continue to have the lifestyles they were used to. Sure seems to have played out that way.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Good points, one and all. In my mind, the bottom line is that people liked Veepee and looked at him like a father/grandfather figure...while snarly old loy was much too abrasive and never gave the impression that he gave a rats foot about anyone.
Also, Wierwille was the founder, shrouded in legendary tales...while loyboy was one of us...we were his peers and we watched him from the beginning as a young guy...there was nothing "father-like" about him.
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ljn698
johniam which twig were you in at advanced class 84 at emporia?
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rascal
I was at advanced class 84 as well. Funny to think about being at the same events with you folks maybe sharing a meal or a swim together:-)
Yeah vp the fatherly figure, concerned for our welfare...yeah, I bought that...s`what made te allegations against him and twi seem so rediculous....I always felt like Craig was trying to sell me something....never felt I could trust him....I guess his biggest problem was that he just couldn`t play the game as well as his mentor.
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johniam
Ljn: I can't remember the name of our twig, but it was really stupid whatever it was. The cordo of it was David Langworthy who later was in the 15th corps. He was OK. Me and one of the guys went to Pizza Hut on middle Saturday and had a pitcher of beer. I remember that our twig lined up in close proximity with a girls twig called the 24 carat rubies. Was that your twig Rascal? Another girls twig held up a sign that said "Foxes have holes" Luke 8:58 or something like that.
Over all it was a fun 2 weeks, but in retrospect it was poignant since it was VPs last one. All moot now though.
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Ham
"PFAL vs WAP" might work for a good bout on Celebrity Deathmatch..
As far as comparing, I think its comparing two completely different things, like comparing the quality of horse manure to that of Elephant feces.
Though one point of similarity is obvious..
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Ham
In all fairness though, to me only part of PFAL was horse stuff. On the other hand, I found little in WAP that wasn't. I did actually get something good out of PFAL, just have spent the past couple years coughing up the junk that came with the good. I can't think of anything from WAP worth remembering. The ridiculous "science" of Loy, good grief.
The debil bringing the ice, the one big land mass, the Eve is/was a lesbo thing, not worth remembering. The "subtle" conditioning- after ranting in a FOUNDATIONAL class, ole loy saying that you oughta "get used to this kind of presentation"- ptooie.
No wonder it was a failure.
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ChasUFarley
In the simplest of terms -- PFAL was based in scripture and scriptures were referenced to build to conclusions. WAP took LCMs looney idea's and THEN tried to stuff scriptures in place to validate them -- like the teaching about Eve being a dyke and doin' it with a serpent while a painting by Michaelangelo (sp) was used to prove it was true...
It was like watching that comedian from SNL who played the guy who lied all the time...
Uh, yeah... and then Eve, uh, decided she would, uh, do it with a... uh... half-snake woman... yeah! That's it! Like, uh, in this painting. Yeah, that's right!
Lemme put it another way...
When PFAL was over, I was glad I had taken it and felt I had something from it.
When WAP was over, I was just glad.
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gc
*giggle* Was that really taught or are you just making a joke?
:)--> Either way its funny!
gc
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WordWolf
Yes, that's what lcm taught.
Yes, that's how he justified it-a painting.
Yes, he engaged in a fast-talk where he changed the meanings of 1/2 the
words in Genesis 3 until he could crowbar his definition in.
Yes, they're still teaching that now.
Yes, new posters periodically express great surprise that this was and IS
being taught. You'd SWEAR we were making it up. It's obviously too
ridiculous to be true..........anywhere except in wayworld.
Of course, in wayworld, nobody has any doubts, there were never any rapes
by leadership, never any coverups, never any plagiarism, never any
intrusive leadership, never a mandatory policy about debt,
and all the women are desirable, all the men are strong and virile.
I'm unsure what colour the sky is, there.
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Oakspear
Both Wierwille and Martindale played fast and loose with definitions of Greek and Hebrew words.
Wierwille spent hours of teaching in PFAL convincing you that he knew what he was talking about. How many sessions does he say basically the same thing over and over: The bible is God's Word and is error-free in the original? It's got to be most of the first three sessions, 7 or 8 hours. He did it by starting simple: reading straight from the bible. When he came to a subject where he differed from mainstream Christianity, he still started out by "reading what was written". It wasn't until session four that he started reaching into his bag of tricks with moving commas and interlinears and shifty definitions. But by then, he had established himself as being a straight shooter, interested only in getting back to "the Word"; he built trust in himself and mistrust of the churches. By session twelve he could have told us anything and we'd have believed him. We believed his definitions, his claims about what "the original" said, and his questionable interpretations because he had laid a foundation.
Martindale laid no such foundation. Not only did his wacky definitions and doctrines seem crazy to most people with enough gray matter to tip a postal scale, but they did not stand up to the so-called research principles that he was supposedly peddling.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I'm happy to say that I never had to sit through king okie's wap class...listening to him rant and rave during the late 70's was quite enough for me.
I have read numerous posts concerning the wap class, and I must say, that it's a real testament as to how truly stupid and arrogant the man was.
Martindale seemed to delight in coming up with things on his own. New "insights" that only HIS spiritual mind was able to ascertain...While the rest of us weren't even competent enough to handle our own financial decisions, king okie was receiving divine revelation, that revealed the hidden and deep secrets of life...like Eve being a lesbian.
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diazbro
Well LCM was not a professional speaker (maybe a professional screamer or spitter) and his presentation skills , such as they were, lacked polish and he did not know how to work a crowd. He knew this and the way he dealt with was to cop the angry,athelete of the spirit thing as some type of defense mechanism.
As we know LCM didn't have the opportunity to make wild claims as to his biblical research career having spent much time with people he wound up screaming at a lot. So while he could have said he did this and studied that and had a religious epiphany ( as did VPW) many would have known it was a lie. VPW was so much older than most people and did have experience in the preaching gig so it wasn't a stretch to see him in that role. LCM was clumsy, inarticulate, and uneducated in any theology except that offerred by TWI. He had "expert" knowledge of the VPW stuff and perhaps felt he had to somehow top that.
The odd thing is that I though his anti-homosexual thing was just a fad for him. I never expected for him to make it the primary aspect of himself and his presidency. He simply could not let go of that concept and it seemed to fascinate him. He seemed obssessed with men being with men. Interesting slant for a preacher who is supposedly there to promote the abundant life. How does constantly bashing homosexuals teach anyone anything about living abundantly ?
Well not having WAP I cannot say where it fails or how it compares. Can anyone tell me how long WAP as ? Was it 12 sessions , 3 hrs each ?
PFAL was tough to sit through it could have EASILY been edited down significantly and it would have been better. "Better" in the sense of presentation as opposed to being "better" in its so called "message".
The only class I ever enjoyed with TWI was the Dealing With The Adversary class. For whatever reason I found it to be entertaining and somewhat interesting (though I know others who thought it was a complete snore). Maybe it was the first time I saw someone other than VPW teach and Walter was less heavy handed). I like the section in the class where he has someone demonstrating how "the word" can be changed to suit one's purpose. And the guy comes on set, steals something, and the rationalization is well it says in the bible "let him that stole, steal [no more]". Of course he leaves off the last two words. Corny ? Yes. maybe I was just tired and easily amused.
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TheInvisibleDan
SO they're still running this flopped "WAP" class for the two or three people they still might get a year? amazing. One would have thought the WAP class would have been withdrawn after they gave LCM the boot.
Or that they might have concentrated solely on becoming a preservation society for VPW's stuff,
and marketing it to the offshoots and VP worshipers and what not.
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Ham
Well, perhaps it is just possible they can't come up with anybody more intelligent than ole loy to do a new one.
All the Loy wannabes there, they'd probably rant about the same stuff. The big continent, eve doing the tango, etc. Nothing new.
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WordWolf
They're not using the tapes of lcm. The locals are teaching it live.
This is not a quality-control issue, since the odds of them doing a WORSE
job than lcm are slim to none.
========
Actually, I liked DWtA also, because it also seemed to acknowledge that
the students needed to think and respond from time to time-
thus the "on guard" thing.
It also had some material that could be USED instead of purely doctrine
(i.e. how many crosses, how many denials).
Finally, I loved the return to the class of one segment. That's where
Walter started by discussing the secrecy of the adversary's moves,
and the camera is on the desk-but the desk is vacant, and even a slow
pan doesn't show the speaker. Made the point and was amusing.
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WordWolf
Oh-
and yes, they have nothing better to offer people than the lcm class.
They can't use the wap tapes because they'd elevate lcm again, and, frankly,
him on tape is inferior to the average person, live OR on tape.
They can't make another class for two very important reasons.
A) After years of driving off the talent, they don't have anyone left with the skill
to produce something the equal of pfal.
B) If they ran a class with one teacher, they'd face their WORST NIGHTMARE.
The girls in charge don't want another leader to show up and show them up.
So, they face "tall poppy syndrome". If you demonstrate skill, they have to
beat you down. Then they wonder why nobody with a lick of skill can be found....
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igotout
For one thing it was just too heavy. I believe in session 1 or 2 he got right into confronting new people about the horrors of homosexuality and the trinity. And I think even abortion was addressed early on (it's not murder at all you know according to his teaching.)
Now that will attract lots of new people.... yeah right!
Furthermore, it was jut too perfect. Every flower petal was in perfect place. There was not a spec of dust anywhere. And those brand new million dollar cameras caught every fake smile and every forced emotion from the "master teacher". It was sickeningly perfect in every way. Suspiciously perfect!
Also in my opionion it was not his own but rather a copy of PFAL with major embellishments. He should have just made up his own class from his own inspiration. But personally I did not sense much inspiration at all.
Now lets get to the doctrine. Basically it sucked in my opinion. Too much to go into here ranging from Eve being a lesbo to the millions of years of Geological Plate Tectonics happening ovenight thanks to some dude with a funny name Peleg I think.
In spite of its man made "perfection" it was a failure for many, many reasons.
John R.
PS - the only good thing about it was the sessions were only 2 hours or so plus a break instead of the 3 in PFAL. With our busy American culture I think they learned that lesson. No one has that kind of time.
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Ham
Neither did I.
Plus the treatment of "the law of believing"- he was better off just leaving it alone. "Faithfulness in believing" just did not make any more sense than "faith".
As far as his "inspiration" is concerned, he would have done a lot better sticking ice down his pants..
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Oakspear
WayAP was 12 sessions, but each session was only two hours.
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Mister P-Mosh
I sat through both, multiple times. Horrible. However, I noticed that for PFAL, people wanted to sit through it again and the places where that class was held would be packed. With WAP, they would basically yell at us for not taking it often enough and trying to make us sound like we were letting God down by not wasting another month of weekends to take it. I think that they wanted us to take it for 1) keeping us busy with TWI's business so we wouldn't see how bad things were, and 2) to make it appear to everyone that classes were full, even though the only new students are kids of people in TWI.
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Oakspear
There were not a lot of WayAP classes run before I got kicked out in 2001.
I believe that the last year that PFAL was run in TWI was the 94/95 "ministry year", right after the WOW program was cancelled and right before the ROA was canned.
WayAP was run for PFAL grads only in 95/96, with the Way Corps going first, and was run for new people in 96/97. Our state ran two grad classes in January and February 1996, and did not scrape up enough people until over three years later, in June of 1999. Included in the class were three PFAL grads who had just started participating in TWI after several years away, the new wife of one of these grads, and my son's girlfriend.
In 2001 we ran a "live" class. New students were the girlfriend of another young man in our fellowship, an immigrant from Togo who was a PFAL grad, and two children of grads.
No really new people.
To be fair, despite back-to-back PFAL classes in the 70's and 80's, the 90's did not see a lot of PFAL action. A class was run in 1990 with eight people, five who were children of grads. Another class did not run until over three years later; one of my sons had been paid up for two years when he took it. The next classes was not until two years after that, when we managed to run three classes of seven people each in one year. Other than one family, no one stuck around much past session 12.
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TOMMYZ
Can anyone who's sat through Geer's class give us a comparison between that class and PFAL ?
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JustThinking
Bingo. It was just awful. When I sat through the "grad" class, there was a collective silence when it was done. As if everyone was thinking "Uh oh, this stinks but I better think of something nice to say." I kept writing down question after question for my LC. At first the response was "it's new material, work it and you'll get it." Later, my questions just got ignored. Finally, it was obvious that there was NO interest in even trying to pretend that this c**p made any sense. Even the corpse shrugged their shoulders in private. After that, the brow beatings started to shove you into those folding torture chairs. The only class crew I was on was for 6 students, 4 of whom were grad kids. Two were girl/boyfriends of grad teens. The last person was some hopeless case who seemed to just want a free meal. When the free food and attention stopped, he was gone.
On the funny side, the grads started to come up with some original excuses to not be there. "My kid has a big project for school" was a common one. Not that many were run. The few that did were run as LIMB class! It took the whole state to scrape together one class about every 18 months.
JT
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