That whole scenario was a big mistake. LCM just didn't want it to go bad as he made the koolaid drinkers believe it was revelation. I'm sure not all WC got toupees though. I remember martinpuke mentioning one incident that some people had the audacity to ask for extra money so their son could take some kind of extracurricular classes--like jousting. He was fired up and p*ssed off about it. But in reality if HIS son wanted jousting lessons, they would be had by the lad with no questions asked. My thoughts on the whole situation were that if the people were able to pay for them before being made full time and provided those things, they shouldn't have been denied.
I am sure there were scenarios from each end of the spectrum in that whole fiasco. Martinpuke ended up having egg on his face....revelation??? right.... --> It's just too bad that peoples' lives got so involved in it so personally. Quit your job; get off your arse and go get a job. What is it that God was saying???
The Way going full time was probably one of the greatest mistakes in the history of the Way Ministry.
In my opinion, the main reason it was done was the rationalization that if the corps were full time, the ministry would acquire more members (oh...that's right..I forgot...the Way doesn't have any membership) and as a result, the membership would increase and as a result, more people would financially give to the Way because there would be more people "in" the Way.
The decision was a disaster from the beginning because it was not "revelation from God" (I know that because I now have the benefit of looking at the results) and many many more previously faithful Way followers left because of it including corps.
The whole decision backfired from what it was supposed to do. Expenses increased at a previously unimagined rate and the number of followers did not increase substantially, if at all, to offset the higher expenses. Especially, with all these new staff corps being full time and the salaries that came with their full time status.
In addition, during this time,the legalism coming from Way headquarters reached a new all time high. The life of the full time corps and the followers were micromanaged to the point of being ridiculous. Of course, this was all being promoted by Martindale as "the will of God."
The reason Martindale was able to make this type of decision provides one more great example of the stupidity involved with how decisions were made and continue to be made at "Way World."
Many of the upper leadership there have been on staff for so long they can not really relate as to what is going on in believers (members) lives. "Way World" is what is says....they have a world of their own and many have lived in that environment for so long they continue to make stupid decisions. Inspite of what they say....in many areas it is not based upon the truth of the Word of God but protecting the ministry at all costs ( One great example of this is all the spin that were put out by Way headquarters concerning Martindale's sexual relations with women....that it was a one time happening) even to the point of rationalizing that lying is ok.
They say they love the followers. However,their lack of concern (proven by their actions) for the individual believers (members), who are still part of the organization, is a powerful witness to the hyprocrisy that goes on there. Their decisions and respecter of person attitude has hurt thousands.
Of course, there aren't many problems with those "in' until they refuse to do what they are told and then they are labeled all sorts of names (ie: not faithful, possessed etc.). Also, the rules are not the same for everyone... it is more.... do as I say not do as I do.
As long as many of the old timers are still running "Way World" this is for sure...very little has and will change. What Way headquarters has done a good job about is stopping the leaks and that is why we have very little new information coming to the Greasespotcafe.
That having been said, you can be sure of this...it is the same legalistic organization is was a few years ago. Only now, they do not have anyone who can really lead and very few people there feel comfortable in talking about what they really think because of the risk (risk of being kicked out, mark and avoid etc.). This kind of mentality assures any organization of continued failure in the future because everyone is "walking on egg shells" and afraid to bring up ideas that probably would benefit the organization as a whole.
Most of the people who could think for themselves have left. The ones who continue to stay in, for the most part, are people who have been blinded by their long term involvement, are relatives/spouses who want out but can't leave yet or are "gravytrainers" who either do not want to have get a real job or are afraid or both.
When the "all Corps are full time" rule was rescinded, most of us who were in at the time knew in our hearts that Martindale screwed up; you just couldn't say it out loud.
When the full time plan was put into place Martindale even said that if he were to go back to having the Corps work regular jobs, the ministry will have failed.
When it actually came down to canning the plan he yelled and screamed at us for thinking it was a failure: it was part of God's plan doncha know - now the Corps can have a greater impact by reaching people at their "secular jobs" that they could not reach before. --> --> -->
There were at least two major negative outcomes to this plan.
1. Many Way Corps had started businesses, or had built reputations in professions, while still running twigs or branches, or even occassionally limbs. They were required to quit their jobs, or sell their businesses or be dropped from the Way Corps. Some even got dropped for other reasons after a few months after quitting their jobs: a doublke whammy! These people got screwed.
2. Imagine a Corps couple, especially if they had no children. They oversee a branch with two twigs, or maybe a limb with four or five...what do they do with their time? Why, the "oversee" people's lives, of course! All day! Every day!
Paying the corps as full time staff, is a perfect example of the stupidity of Martindale. The guy never was too damn bright, but when he entered the world of "every thought I have is God's directives for all of mankind", he became a lost soul.
I think when wierwille wrapped the mantle around lcm's neck, he cut the blood off to his already feeble brain. King okie became the GREAT ONE...He stumbled around spewing out all his asinine ideas...and his asskissing bunboys all said "yup yup". It almost seemed like the stupidity of what he was saying was proof that he was getting revelation, because nobody with half a brain would ever come up with such a lame idea with their "five senses".
...But the bottom line was that when martinpuke spoke...critical examination of what he was saying, was forbidden. Logic was thrown out in favor of mythology. The experience and knowledge of a pool of talented people, was replaced with the whims and outbursts of a mentally disturbed egomaniac. The results were predictible. There's not much future in following the dictates of stupidity.
2. Imagine a Corps couple, especially if they had no children. They oversee a branch with two twigs, or maybe a limb with four or five...what do they do with their time? Why, the "oversee" people's lives, of course! All day! Every day!
As Paradiseden said, the main reason the wc went full time to begin with was to increase membership (participation) and therefore the money coming in. Funny how it's always about money Those full timers should have been so busy WITNESSING AND UNDERSHEPERDING that they didn't have time to micro-manage people's lives. Of all the wc I know not one has ever brought someone new to fellowship, much less had someone finish a class. -->
On top of that, once they went back to working in the real world, they STILL haven't been bringing new people into the fold. In fact, all I've ever seen them do is make everyone else feel bad for not doing what they should be doing.
quote:
I think when wierwille wrapped the mantle around lcm's neck, he cut the blood off to his already feeble brain.
LOL!!
quote:
...But the bottom line was that when martinpuke spoke...critical examination of what he was saying, was forbidden. Logic was thrown out in favor of mythology. The experience and knowledge of a pool of talented people, was replaced with the whims and outbursts of a mentally disturbed egomaniac.
Yeppers, those big bad wc who would get in your face in a heartbeat for not stringing chairs just right sure cowered like a pansy in the face of lcm or any directive from him passed down by hq. The ones still living off the TWI millions are the worst because you KNOW they don't like the fox and the way things are being run but they continue to keep their mouths shut.
The Way going full time was probably one of the greatest mistakes in the history of the Way Ministry.
In my opinion, the main reason it was done was the rationalization that if the corps were full time, the ministry would acquire more members (oh...that's right..I forgot...the Way doesn't have any membership) and as a result, the membership would increase and as a result, more people would financially give to the Way because there would be more people "in" the Way.
The whole decision backfired from what it was supposed to do. Expenses increased at a previously unimagined rate and the number of followers did not increase substantially, if at all, to offset the higher expenses. Especially, with all these new staff corps being full time and the salaries that came with their full time status.
In addition, during this time,the legalism coming from Way headquarters reached a new all time high. The life of the full time corps and the followers were micromanaged to the point of being ridiculous. Of course, this was all being promoted by Martindale as "the will of God."
The reason Martindale was able to make this type of decision provides one more great example of the stupidity involved with how decisions were made and continue to be made at "Way World."
Well,
the whole "whoever wears the crown is king" thing is what led to this. twi endorsed
whatever its president/mogfot said as if it was excathedra/holy writ.
vpw looked among his followers, and chose the one who was most loyal to him as the
one who was "worthy" to ascend the throne. That divine revelation was completely
missing from this decision should be obvious from the results, and vpw WAS overheard
to say it was his loyalty that was the determinant. vpw chose a man who lacked
skills vital to doing the job right, who had been "trained" by vpw to be even LESS
worthy of the position by inflicting his own worst habits on him, making him
two-fold the child of hell he himself was.
So, lcm's ego was fed, THEN he was given the position and people were told to follow
him mindlessly.
"In multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Proverbs.)
No words disagreeing with lcm were allowed under any circumstances.
One of lcm's stupid policies was to shove his own face in front of everything that had
anything to do with twi.
One of lcm's stupid decisions based on that stupid policy was to demonstrate his own
lack of skill at "Biblical research" by making his own class on "Biblical research"
and replacing vpw's class. vpw's class could have been improved on (like by using
the originals), but lcm's incompetence guaranteed this would NOT happen. It was
confusing, cold, and loaded with errors.
lcm knew that two of the keys to all the money was the lack of outflow
(the Dead Sea/twi is dead for that reason) to places where it would be of use and
bless people,
and the continued inflow of people giving 10% of their income.
So, since he couldn't increase the money NOT going out
(you can't send less than zero dollars to a place),
he decided to increase his money by increasing the inflow.
He attempted to accomplish this by doing two things:
A) order people to give 15%, 20%, and more of their income
(increasing to 15% increases the inflow by 50%, 20% DOUBLES the amount of money.)
B) get more members, thus increasing the number of givers
Since the numbers were always dependent upon the number of people taking
vpw's pfal class (which also produced a one-time tuition),
he decided this would be done by increasing the number of people taking
lcm's wap class (which also produced a one-time tuition.)
So, he actually thought people would be as interested in wap as in pfal.
This was also wrong for 3 reasons:
1) the cultural climate had changed
2) there were other sources for this all over Christianity
3) wap was an inferior product
However, since he foolishly failed to consider ANY of this, he said
"we must have more people take the wap class".
This could be done using 3 types of people:
a) the rank and file (who had no confidence in that mess, those who stayed)
b) the way disciples (whose numbers were shrinking wildly)
c) the way corps (who were indoctrinated to "dont think-just follow orders)
The way corps it was, then!
So, he decided the way corps was going to be the key to bringing in more money,
by getting more people to take his crap/wap class.
So, he was required to make them FULL-TIME so they had time to advertise.
Of course, it never occurred to him that there were no real ways for them to
advertise his class-he thought his class was so good, people would line up to take
his crap/wap class.
=====
So,
what were the results of this "sound financial decision"?
-More income went out to the salaried corps.
(Unless a lot more money comes in, that's a net loss.)
-Not many more classes were demanded-nobody wanted to take this thing.
(It was crap and still is.)
This meant the salaried corps didn't meet expenses to "break even".
-People who sat thru it ran like hell.
(It was inferior to what conventional churches now offer.)
This meant the wap class as a whole was/is a failure, and is unable to be
used to turn people into cash-cows.
So, money went OUT, and LESS money overall came IN.
When the inevitable happened- the way corps all had to be paid for 2 weeks to
come to corps week and the ROA- the 2 weeks of not bringing in income
(albeit they served as staff at ROA, and for its setup)-
lcm hit the ceiling.
THAT's what ended the ROA.
(That and nobody was lining up to advertise a bad class, which meant that its
function as a wow/way disciple festival was defunct.)
=====
So,
the other result was,
we now had leadership adults with lots of time on their hands, whose only significant
trainings were in teaching Bible lessons and in throwing their weight around,
who were all over the country.
Even lacking specific orders, they were going to meddle in people's lives.
(No, not every corps person, but too many of them fit this profile,
especially after the 89/90 purge.)
Of course,
despite this being a failure of:
A) insufficient corps training-which used to be lcm's program
B) a crappy class
C) absent support for the crappy class sent out as "damage control"
D) an archaic structure that has been superceded by most churches
E) poor management at the top
ALL of which was lcm's responsibility,
ALL of it was painted as failures of everyone BUT lcm.
"People didn't sell wap hard enough", "People acted poorly at ROA",
"those homos ruined everything", yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah.
=====
The difference between massive stupidity and grand executive mass stupidity
There were at least two major negative outcomes to this plan.
1. Many Way Corps had started businesses, or had built reputations in professions, while still running twigs or branches, or even occassionally limbs. They were required to quit their jobs, or sell their businesses or be dropped from the Way Corps. Some even got dropped for other reasons after a few months after quitting their jobs: a doublke whammy! These people got screwed.
2. Imagine a Corps couple, especially if they had no children. They oversee a branch with two twigs, or maybe a limb with four or five...what do they do with their time? Why, the "oversee" people's lives, of course! All day! Every day!
1) But who cares if their lives are ruined? twi didn't care-they still got their money.
2) Which, of course, is one reason more of the members were run off.
This only concerned twi as regards the loss of their tithes/abs money.
Ya know, it may not have been (completely) about the money.
Maybe a big part of the reason loyboy made that decision was because he wanted a new pool of talent - he was bored with the poosy that was already at way nash, and wanted fresh meat.
Steve, that makes more sense than any other explanation I have heard for the insanity.
Insanity doesn't need a reason.
I knew martindale and wierwille though I left before WayII. I don't think either of them consciously believed they were ripping people off, or abusing people (though of course they were).
People with the kinds of emotional problems these men had don't really think like normal people [he said, speaking as a "normal" person who spent 16 years in a cult]. In fact they don't think as much as they just emote and then string words together after the fact to justify what they've done.
You can see similar patterns in other leaders today who think what they are doing is god's will. This happens on both sides of the war on terrorism.
Steve, that makes more sense than any other explanation I have heard for the insanity.
Insanity doesn't need a reason.
I knew martindale and wierwille though I left before WayII. I don't think either of them consciously believed they were ripping people off, or abusing people (though of course they were).
People with the kinds of emotional problems these men had don't really think like normal people [he said, speaking as a "normal" person who spent 16 years in a cult]. In fact they don't think as much as they just emote and then string words together after the fact to justify what they've done.
You can see similar patterns in other leaders today who think what they are doing is god's will. This happens on both sides of the war on terrorism.
I just have to disagree. Wierwille New exactly what he was doing every second. Making a ton of money and satisfying himself. Oh no doubt he worked hard. It was money and sex, that's what he worked for.
lcm learned from vic. lcm was just a loose cannon that people covered for (that is fact). lcm's ministry was not to nurture or love people but to leave a wake of destuction in his wake. He did not care who he hurt as long as it was to his benefit. lcm was a HACK.
RR. I am still learning about her but she seems to fall right inline. Same ole story with RR (I think) (Husbands keep a close watch on your wives and the single girls keep your leggs crossed.)
Where has everyone been? Blind? The WCs I knew back in the 70s and 80s came from wealthy backgrounds. None held jobs but yet lived in nice houses in nice sections. Their vehicles were full of gas, their furniture was expensived as were their cars, food on the table, and family needs met.
If it wasn't coming from ABS then somebody's daddy was paying for it. Add that most physical labor that needed to be done was done by the poor mindless subordinats, and I guess God supplied your needs!
I guess this is a spiritual world thing, because in the real world, even back then, it didn't add up!
Where has everyone been? Blind? The WCs I knew back in the 70s and 80s came from wealthy backgrounds. None held jobs but yet lived in nice houses in nice sections. Their vehicles were full of gas, their furniture was expensived as were their cars, food on the table, and family needs met.
If it wasn't coming from ABS then somebody's daddy was paying for it. Add that most physical labor that needed to be done was done by the poor mindless subordinats, and I guess God supplied your needs!
I guess this is a spiritual world thing, because in the real world, even back then, it didn't add up!
signals - where were you?
There were darn few of the WC from the 70's left and not a whole lot from the 80's left. The WC that was left for the 90's wasn't the kind you talked about in your post. Yeah, there were some who had a silver spoon in their mouths, but most HAD to work - although there was less and less blue collar workers left as WC.
See, the WC was thinned down quite a bit in the 90's. Debt, marital/family issues, etc., were some of the reasons WC was placed in the Way Corps Alumni (what the hell did that mean, anyhow?). Some were called Alumni because they were told that they didn't have a ministry - I thought that clergy had ministries... but anyhow, that's another thread.
The WC that was sent F/T had to quit jobs, close businesses, etc. - I think a few, like one guy who was in the military, was allowed to keep their jobs. Some choose their professions over going full time and dropped themselves from the WC.
Like Belle basically said, the WC had a lot of time to micromanage the underlings. I wondered if it was a ploy to make us as miserable as possible sometimes... I remember getting called out on the carpet for the s-t-u-p-i-d-e-s-t things you can imagine - things that made me finally say to my RC, "So, if this is the worst problem you have in the area, then things must be pretty quiet," (I'd gotten in trouble for not making my bed when my lower back was out - it was the end of the frekkin' world!)
Thanks for the enlightenment, Chas. You're right, I have no idea of the current or past WC at this point. I spoke of my era and the corps I seen first hand. I wrote about them elsewhere. I've been away since around '81 or '82 and this is my first return to anything TWI related.
If not too personal, do you think the Martndale WC select eventually weeded out Werewolf's WC elite? After that could it be that Martindale to make his stronger had to weed out his own weak? Ever notice favoratism? What's the financial price to train and become a WC nowadays?
I don't think that there was any VPW elect WC or LCM elect WC. I do think there was those who believed LCM was NOT the right man for the job and those who would kiss @$$ just to keep their spots as leadership. LCM weeded out the ones who had a backbone when he sent out the "Who do you stand with?" letter in 1989. Those who said they didn't stand with him got the boot, if they didn't leave on their own.
LCM continued to test the waters of faithfulness to him (not God - albeit, he thought he was next in line) and raise the standards (or the b.s. level). As things got deeper people either drown or jumped out. There's darn few left now. I think the last graduating WC had something like 9 people in it - someone else here can better confirm those numbers.
The current WC overseer is the next best thing to LCM being at the helm, so they're probably just churning out more of the same little MOG-on-a-sticks that they were in the 90's.
Just a thought - but if the Household is so damn strong now, how come there isn't more people rising up to go into the WC? (Fodder for another thread, I suppose.)
The cost of training is over $4K/year, I believe. I had applied for 23rd, and think that's what the price tag was then... Again, maybe someone else here has a more current number... In the late 90's there was a "catch" to people being sponsored - it had to be by people you knew - like in your area, etc. There was no more of the spiritual partner pan handeling going on at events. This had to suck for people who came from areas where the believers there had limited incomes - it was another rule to keep you in your place, you know?
Signals - hope I didn't sound like a snot in my post to you... I was keying off what you had started your post with - no offence was intended... Can I buy you a coffee and a slice of key lime pie? Welcome to the Cafe!
Keep dancing on the mine field, nervie! I can see you're trying to provoke, thus me thinks you're up to something. But practice what you preach: Forgive and move on because I know not what I do!
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dmiller
Cleaning the coffee off my screen!!
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Nottawayfer
That whole scenario was a big mistake. LCM just didn't want it to go bad as he made the koolaid drinkers believe it was revelation. I'm sure not all WC got toupees though. I remember martinpuke mentioning one incident that some people had the audacity to ask for extra money so their son could take some kind of extracurricular classes--like jousting. He was fired up and p*ssed off about it. But in reality if HIS son wanted jousting lessons, they would be had by the lad with no questions asked. My thoughts on the whole situation were that if the people were able to pay for them before being made full time and provided those things, they shouldn't have been denied.
I am sure there were scenarios from each end of the spectrum in that whole fiasco. Martinpuke ended up having egg on his face....revelation??? right....
--> It's just too bad that peoples' lives got so involved in it so personally. Quit your job; get off your arse and go get a job. What is it that God was saying???
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Paradiseden
The Way going full time was probably one of the greatest mistakes in the history of the Way Ministry.
In my opinion, the main reason it was done was the rationalization that if the corps were full time, the ministry would acquire more members (oh...that's right..I forgot...the Way doesn't have any membership) and as a result, the membership would increase and as a result, more people would financially give to the Way because there would be more people "in" the Way.
The decision was a disaster from the beginning because it was not "revelation from God" (I know that because I now have the benefit of looking at the results) and many many more previously faithful Way followers left because of it including corps.
The whole decision backfired from what it was supposed to do. Expenses increased at a previously unimagined rate and the number of followers did not increase substantially, if at all, to offset the higher expenses. Especially, with all these new staff corps being full time and the salaries that came with their full time status.
In addition, during this time,the legalism coming from Way headquarters reached a new all time high. The life of the full time corps and the followers were micromanaged to the point of being ridiculous. Of course, this was all being promoted by Martindale as "the will of God."
The reason Martindale was able to make this type of decision provides one more great example of the stupidity involved with how decisions were made and continue to be made at "Way World."
Many of the upper leadership there have been on staff for so long they can not really relate as to what is going on in believers (members) lives. "Way World" is what is says....they have a world of their own and many have lived in that environment for so long they continue to make stupid decisions. Inspite of what they say....in many areas it is not based upon the truth of the Word of God but protecting the ministry at all costs ( One great example of this is all the spin that were put out by Way headquarters concerning Martindale's sexual relations with women....that it was a one time happening) even to the point of rationalizing that lying is ok.
They say they love the followers. However,their lack of concern (proven by their actions) for the individual believers (members), who are still part of the organization, is a powerful witness to the hyprocrisy that goes on there. Their decisions and respecter of person attitude has hurt thousands.
Of course, there aren't many problems with those "in' until they refuse to do what they are told and then they are labeled all sorts of names (ie: not faithful, possessed etc.). Also, the rules are not the same for everyone... it is more.... do as I say not do as I do.
As long as many of the old timers are still running "Way World" this is for sure...very little has and will change. What Way headquarters has done a good job about is stopping the leaks and that is why we have very little new information coming to the Greasespotcafe.
That having been said, you can be sure of this...it is the same legalistic organization is was a few years ago. Only now, they do not have anyone who can really lead and very few people there feel comfortable in talking about what they really think because of the risk (risk of being kicked out, mark and avoid etc.). This kind of mentality assures any organization of continued failure in the future because everyone is "walking on egg shells" and afraid to bring up ideas that probably would benefit the organization as a whole.
Most of the people who could think for themselves have left. The ones who continue to stay in, for the most part, are people who have been blinded by their long term involvement, are relatives/spouses who want out but can't leave yet or are "gravytrainers" who either do not want to have get a real job or are afraid or both.
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Oakspear
When the "all Corps are full time" rule was rescinded, most of us who were in at the time knew in our hearts that Martindale screwed up; you just couldn't say it out loud.
When the full time plan was put into place Martindale even said that if he were to go back to having the Corps work regular jobs, the ministry will have failed.
When it actually came down to canning the plan he yelled and screamed at us for thinking it was a failure: it was part of God's plan doncha know - now the Corps can have a greater impact by reaching people at their "secular jobs" that they could not reach before.
--> 
--> 
--> 
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Oakspear
There were at least two major negative outcomes to this plan.
1. Many Way Corps had started businesses, or had built reputations in professions, while still running twigs or branches, or even occassionally limbs. They were required to quit their jobs, or sell their businesses or be dropped from the Way Corps. Some even got dropped for other reasons after a few months after quitting their jobs: a doublke whammy! These people got screwed.
2. Imagine a Corps couple, especially if they had no children. They oversee a branch with two twigs, or maybe a limb with four or five...what do they do with their time? Why, the "oversee" people's lives, of course! All day! Every day!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Paying the corps as full time staff, is a perfect example of the stupidity of Martindale. The guy never was too damn bright, but when he entered the world of "every thought I have is God's directives for all of mankind", he became a lost soul.
I think when wierwille wrapped the mantle around lcm's neck, he cut the blood off to his already feeble brain. King okie became the GREAT ONE...He stumbled around spewing out all his asinine ideas...and his asskissing bunboys all said "yup yup". It almost seemed like the stupidity of what he was saying was proof that he was getting revelation, because nobody with half a brain would ever come up with such a lame idea with their "five senses".
...But the bottom line was that when martinpuke spoke...critical examination of what he was saying, was forbidden. Logic was thrown out in favor of mythology. The experience and knowledge of a pool of talented people, was replaced with the whims and outbursts of a mentally disturbed egomaniac. The results were predictible. There's not much future in following the dictates of stupidity.
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Belle
Oakspear said:
As Paradiseden said, the main reason the wc went full time to begin with was to increase membership (participation) and therefore the money coming in. Funny how it's always about money Those full timers should have been so busy WITNESSING AND UNDERSHEPERDING that they didn't have time to micro-manage people's lives. Of all the wc I know not one has ever brought someone new to fellowship, much less had someone finish a class.
-->
On top of that, once they went back to working in the real world, they STILL haven't been bringing new people into the fold. In fact, all I've ever seen them do is make everyone else feel bad for not doing what they should be doing.
LOL!!
Yeppers, those big bad wc who would get in your face in a heartbeat for not stringing chairs just right sure cowered like a pansy in the face of lcm or any directive from him passed down by hq. The ones still living off the TWI millions are the worst because you KNOW they don't like the fox and the way things are being run but they continue to keep their mouths shut.
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WordWolf
Well,
the whole "whoever wears the crown is king" thing is what led to this. twi endorsed
whatever its president/mogfot said as if it was excathedra/holy writ.
vpw looked among his followers, and chose the one who was most loyal to him as the
one who was "worthy" to ascend the throne. That divine revelation was completely
missing from this decision should be obvious from the results, and vpw WAS overheard
to say it was his loyalty that was the determinant. vpw chose a man who lacked
skills vital to doing the job right, who had been "trained" by vpw to be even LESS
worthy of the position by inflicting his own worst habits on him, making him
two-fold the child of hell he himself was.
So, lcm's ego was fed, THEN he was given the position and people were told to follow
him mindlessly.
"In multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Proverbs.)
No words disagreeing with lcm were allowed under any circumstances.
One of lcm's stupid policies was to shove his own face in front of everything that had
anything to do with twi.
One of lcm's stupid decisions based on that stupid policy was to demonstrate his own
lack of skill at "Biblical research" by making his own class on "Biblical research"
and replacing vpw's class. vpw's class could have been improved on (like by using
the originals), but lcm's incompetence guaranteed this would NOT happen. It was
confusing, cold, and loaded with errors.
lcm knew that two of the keys to all the money was the lack of outflow
(the Dead Sea/twi is dead for that reason) to places where it would be of use and
bless people,
and the continued inflow of people giving 10% of their income.
So, since he couldn't increase the money NOT going out
(you can't send less than zero dollars to a place),
he decided to increase his money by increasing the inflow.
He attempted to accomplish this by doing two things:
A) order people to give 15%, 20%, and more of their income
(increasing to 15% increases the inflow by 50%, 20% DOUBLES the amount of money.)
B) get more members, thus increasing the number of givers
Since the numbers were always dependent upon the number of people taking
vpw's pfal class (which also produced a one-time tuition),
he decided this would be done by increasing the number of people taking
lcm's wap class (which also produced a one-time tuition.)
So, he actually thought people would be as interested in wap as in pfal.
This was also wrong for 3 reasons:
1) the cultural climate had changed
2) there were other sources for this all over Christianity
3) wap was an inferior product
However, since he foolishly failed to consider ANY of this, he said
"we must have more people take the wap class".
This could be done using 3 types of people:
a) the rank and file (who had no confidence in that mess, those who stayed)
b) the way disciples (whose numbers were shrinking wildly)
c) the way corps (who were indoctrinated to "dont think-just follow orders)
The way corps it was, then!
So, he decided the way corps was going to be the key to bringing in more money,
by getting more people to take his crap/wap class.
So, he was required to make them FULL-TIME so they had time to advertise.
Of course, it never occurred to him that there were no real ways for them to
advertise his class-he thought his class was so good, people would line up to take
his crap/wap class.
=====
So,
what were the results of this "sound financial decision"?
-More income went out to the salaried corps.
(Unless a lot more money comes in, that's a net loss.)
-Not many more classes were demanded-nobody wanted to take this thing.
(It was crap and still is.)
This meant the salaried corps didn't meet expenses to "break even".
-People who sat thru it ran like hell.
(It was inferior to what conventional churches now offer.)
This meant the wap class as a whole was/is a failure, and is unable to be
used to turn people into cash-cows.
So, money went OUT, and LESS money overall came IN.
When the inevitable happened- the way corps all had to be paid for 2 weeks to
come to corps week and the ROA- the 2 weeks of not bringing in income
(albeit they served as staff at ROA, and for its setup)-
lcm hit the ceiling.
THAT's what ended the ROA.
(That and nobody was lining up to advertise a bad class, which meant that its
function as a wow/way disciple festival was defunct.)
=====
So,
the other result was,
we now had leadership adults with lots of time on their hands, whose only significant
trainings were in teaching Bible lessons and in throwing their weight around,
who were all over the country.
Even lacking specific orders, they were going to meddle in people's lives.
(No, not every corps person, but too many of them fit this profile,
especially after the 89/90 purge.)
Of course,
despite this being a failure of:
A) insufficient corps training-which used to be lcm's program
B) a crappy class
C) absent support for the crappy class sent out as "damage control"
D) an archaic structure that has been superceded by most churches
E) poor management at the top
ALL of which was lcm's responsibility,
ALL of it was painted as failures of everyone BUT lcm.
"People didn't sell wap hard enough", "People acted poorly at ROA",
"those homos ruined everything", yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah.
=====
The difference between massive stupidity and grand executive mass stupidity
is this:
they're still running that thing to this day.
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WordWolf
1) But who cares if their lives are ruined? twi didn't care-they still got their money.
2) Which, of course, is one reason more of the members were run off.
This only concerned twi as regards the loss of their tithes/abs money.
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Sunesis
Wordwolf, I wasn't there for TWI II (left in '88), but that was one of the best analyses I've ever read of what happened. Thanks!
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Steve!
Ya know, it may not have been (completely) about the money.
Maybe a big part of the reason loyboy made that decision was because he wanted a new pool of talent - he was bored with the poosy that was already at way nash, and wanted fresh meat.
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Ham
Steve, that makes more sense than any other explanation I have heard for the insanity.
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My3Cents
Insanity doesn't need a reason.
I knew martindale and wierwille though I left before WayII. I don't think either of them consciously believed they were ripping people off, or abusing people (though of course they were).
People with the kinds of emotional problems these men had don't really think like normal people [he said, speaking as a "normal" person who spent 16 years in a cult]. In fact they don't think as much as they just emote and then string words together after the fact to justify what they've done.
You can see similar patterns in other leaders today who think what they are doing is god's will. This happens on both sides of the war on terrorism.
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justloafing
I just have to disagree. Wierwille New exactly what he was doing every second. Making a ton of money and satisfying himself. Oh no doubt he worked hard. It was money and sex, that's what he worked for.
lcm learned from vic. lcm was just a loose cannon that people covered for (that is fact). lcm's ministry was not to nurture or love people but to leave a wake of destuction in his wake. He did not care who he hurt as long as it was to his benefit. lcm was a HACK.
RR. I am still learning about her but she seems to fall right inline. Same ole story with RR (I think) (Husbands keep a close watch on your wives and the single girls keep your leggs crossed.)
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signals
Where has everyone been? Blind? The WCs I knew back in the 70s and 80s came from wealthy backgrounds. None held jobs but yet lived in nice houses in nice sections. Their vehicles were full of gas, their furniture was expensived as were their cars, food on the table, and family needs met.
If it wasn't coming from ABS then somebody's daddy was paying for it. Add that most physical labor that needed to be done was done by the poor mindless subordinats, and I guess God supplied your needs!
I guess this is a spiritual world thing, because in the real world, even back then, it didn't add up!
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ChasUFarley
signals - where were you?
There were darn few of the WC from the 70's left and not a whole lot from the 80's left. The WC that was left for the 90's wasn't the kind you talked about in your post. Yeah, there were some who had a silver spoon in their mouths, but most HAD to work - although there was less and less blue collar workers left as WC.
See, the WC was thinned down quite a bit in the 90's. Debt, marital/family issues, etc., were some of the reasons WC was placed in the Way Corps Alumni (what the hell did that mean, anyhow?). Some were called Alumni because they were told that they didn't have a ministry - I thought that clergy had ministries... but anyhow, that's another thread.
The WC that was sent F/T had to quit jobs, close businesses, etc. - I think a few, like one guy who was in the military, was allowed to keep their jobs. Some choose their professions over going full time and dropped themselves from the WC.
Like Belle basically said, the WC had a lot of time to micromanage the underlings. I wondered if it was a ploy to make us as miserable as possible sometimes... I remember getting called out on the carpet for the s-t-u-p-i-d-e-s-t things you can imagine - things that made me finally say to my RC, "So, if this is the worst problem you have in the area, then things must be pretty quiet," (I'd gotten in trouble for not making my bed when my lower back was out - it was the end of the frekkin' world!)
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signals
Thanks for the enlightenment, Chas. You're right, I have no idea of the current or past WC at this point. I spoke of my era and the corps I seen first hand. I wrote about them elsewhere. I've been away since around '81 or '82 and this is my first return to anything TWI related.
If not too personal, do you think the Martndale WC select eventually weeded out Werewolf's WC elite? After that could it be that Martindale to make his stronger had to weed out his own weak? Ever notice favoratism? What's the financial price to train and become a WC nowadays?
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ChasUFarley
I don't think that there was any VPW elect WC or LCM elect WC. I do think there was those who believed LCM was NOT the right man for the job and those who would kiss @$$ just to keep their spots as leadership. LCM weeded out the ones who had a backbone when he sent out the "Who do you stand with?" letter in 1989. Those who said they didn't stand with him got the boot, if they didn't leave on their own.
LCM continued to test the waters of faithfulness to him (not God - albeit, he thought he was next in line) and raise the standards (or the b.s. level). As things got deeper people either drown or jumped out. There's darn few left now. I think the last graduating WC had something like 9 people in it - someone else here can better confirm those numbers.
The current WC overseer is the next best thing to LCM being at the helm, so they're probably just churning out more of the same little MOG-on-a-sticks that they were in the 90's.
Just a thought - but if the Household is so damn strong now, how come there isn't more people rising up to go into the WC? (Fodder for another thread, I suppose.)
The cost of training is over $4K/year, I believe. I had applied for 23rd, and think that's what the price tag was then... Again, maybe someone else here has a more current number... In the late 90's there was a "catch" to people being sponsored - it had to be by people you knew - like in your area, etc. There was no more of the spiritual partner pan handeling going on at events. This had to suck for people who came from areas where the believers there had limited incomes - it was another rule to keep you in your place, you know?
Signals - hope I didn't sound like a snot in my post to you... I was keying off what you had started your post with - no offence was intended... Can I buy you a coffee and a slice of key lime pie? Welcome to the Cafe!
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engine
Look at the results of this decision: people left and der Weg took a big hit financially.
Maybe it was revelation...just not with LCM's desired results. Heh
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WordWolf
It was FIVE graduates, not 9.
That's why they've taken to announcing assignments in PERCENTAGES,
so they don't have to give hard numbers and show how few there are.
(Which is why some people still can find ways to believe twi isn't hemorrhaging members.)
BTW,
signals,
I'd consider it a personal favour if you didn't speak ill of wolves or werewolves.
Alpha wolves GUARD their pack, and don't bloodsuck them like ticks.
Alpha wolves are always the FIRST to face danger, and will do so FOR their pack.
As for werewolves, most of them would be horrified by vpw's behaviour.
Ever see the short-lived tv series Wolf Lake?
It has been said of the characters that it was one of the more family-oriented
shows on the networks, and the families weren't even human-in fact, they were more
protective of their families and communities than humans are.
:D-->
So, I ask you, please, be a pal. Thanks.
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Belle
I wonder how many they have graduating this year......they may start counting the kids in their numbers just to boost them.
:D-->
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Ham
Maybe they will start counting pets. That oughta do it.. oops, forgot- they can't have any.
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nervecurve
Signals,
Time to let go of this bitterness it has been 25 years. This is not our Heavenly Fathers will for our lifes..........forgive and move on.
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signals
Keep dancing on the mine field, nervie! I can see you're trying to provoke, thus me thinks you're up to something. But practice what you preach: Forgive and move on because I know not what I do!
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