I saw the last 5 minutes of the show...because I had fallen asleep waiting for the show to come on.
Sigh. Can anything more be said? LOLOLOLOL!
I think Oprah did a show on the same cult...or somebody did sometime awhile ago.
What I got out of the last 5 minutes was Dr Phil telling the girls/women that they should expect to be able to always ask questions...and always want to ask questions...and always expect answers to their questions.
That's pretty good advice...if one knows what questions to ask. Ya know?
I watched it. I have been interested in this group because I live in the same county as Colorado City. I started a thread about it awhile back.
Basically Dr. Phil told these girls that he wasn't going to tell them what to do. They are considering going back to Col. City because they miss their moms and siblings. I am sure their "decompression" time coming out of their cult is more difficult than even a lot of us here at GSC had because of the fact that it is their upbringing they are leaving and rebelling against. I really feel for them.
Men are superior to women in this cult, so Dr. Phil didn't want them to look to him as they would any other man who has been in their life. I respected that about Dr. Phil. He also told them that even though he has studied the Bible, there are volumes of what he doesn't know and he would be the first to admit it. But he knows God is a loving God, and He wouldn't strike them dead for leaving.
They encouraged people to give advice on the message boards, but sadly, it is turning in to a debate about Mormons and offshoot groups of Mormons. People are trying to protect that religion, and the real discussion is almost nill. I wish their moderators would post something saying that the topic should be based on advice or encouragement for those girls, not debate over religion.
WN, Thanks. I think I saw something about them some years back, so you might be right.
I agree, when you are taught from birth its so much tougher to get rid of. I know I can still kneel at the right time in a catholic church even though I've only been in one about 5 times in the past 33 years.
I saw the show, one of the girls wants to go back to be with her mom and her siblings of which she has like 53 .
the brother who was raised in the cult is the one they are living with, his wife picked them up in the night, the wife was never in the cult and the brother said it was because of her he is able to stay away from all of his family and the group. He claims brutal child abuse. They dunk the babies face in ice cold water if they cry because of the day long services the babies can not interupt, the babies do not cry . They claim the local police are also "members" or friends of the cult and will not help them at all. If they call 911 the members somhow find out before the police arive and the situation is never addressed.
child protective have been called and investigated and have never found an issue. I bet who would dare complain? they get married off as young as ten and must have children right away, one girl spoke of a friend who is 18 and has four children already.
If they go back they will be married off imediately their father would chose, they would have to have children right away and keep on having children. they live with the other wifes of ther husband and the children.
they will never be allowed to be without supervision, other girls have come back and they say they are treatd like they are in prison because they can not be trusted. but to leave such a large family and the only way yu have ever known is so very difficult. One of girls said she believes they are right(the cult) in many areas of life still, men are superiour to woman in every way and woman has zero choices. One said the only difference she has now is she can chose who she marries and how many children she will have.
If they stay out they have a long long way to go to get what this big old world means for them and choices, it would be very very difficult for them.
I had seen something about this cult awhile back...and maybe it was the thread here that got me looking at it...but there was also another TV thingy about it, too.
Anyway, I remember thinking that twi was so very much like this group...only far more secretive about it all...but, in the end, effecting the same and/or similar results.
The local police are men involved in the polygamist group. Everything in this city is involved in this group--the school superintendent, the fire chief, anybody who would be anybody in the community. The locals consist of probably 98% of people from the cult. They vote for who they want, and it all happens to be people from the cult taking these positions. There has been speculation that the monies budgeted from the county have been going to Warren Jeffs, the group's "Prophet". There have been accusations against Jeffs for raping boys.
They believe in "bleeding the beast", meaning they will suck all they can out of the outsiders financially to benefit themselves. The women who are wife #2 and beyond are all on welfare. They collect welfare checks and food stamps. I am sure CPS is there a lot, but in comparison, it probably looks pretty good compared to a meth-hooked mom on welfare. That's the problem when they try to compare. Rape is still rape. Those girls are way too young to be married and having babies. The other problem with that group is they have kicked out younger boys to cut down on the competition for the women. It is a sick situation.
Ironically, they have some of the higher tax rates in the county, and they do not send their children to the public school. I have been in contact with some of the men in this group because of my job with the Assessor's Office. They try to appear respectable, but I never forget these dogs are child molestors. They all have their houses on church-owned property. They don't get their property tax-free because it's based on the USE of the property. The use of most of the church-owned property is followers building their huge houses on them. If they leave the church, they lose their house because it's on the church's property. They really put themselves in a bad situation.
I know of one couple from the group who didn't want their daughter to marry, but lost her to the church because the leaders talked the girl into it. The parents have been to the superior court and everywhere, but to no avail. It's sad, but they are the reason she's there.
They tried for awhile to make it look like they weren't finished on the outside to avoid paying taxes, but the county smartened up on that and started making them pay anyway. Our office spends a whole week going up twice a year to canvass the area for property assessment purposes. It takes about 11 people to accomplish the work in a week. Some of them have pretty extravagant houses with restaurant grade and sized kitchens to feed the massive family. Some do not though. I am not sure how money is made in this community.
The County Sheriff's Department only has what they call a substation in the area. I don't even think it is manned full-time. The Sheriff has enough problems keeping enough staff in the rest of the county. They upped the salaries to help keep the staff from moving to the local police departments, but it is still an issue.
what is that about the age of eight or so? They said they learned about the church doctrine in school.
How do people think they can "fit" in in the local high school with other teens? They will not also they say they stillbelieve in much of what they were taught as far as male dominance, why would they not? Dr Phil said they need to "replace that thinking with new thinking they looked at him like he was talking from the moon. ( I get that part somewhat they were trained to think in a certain way and their enitre life is this way of thinking.
I do not agree that twi is like this cult, I never saw babies being dunk in cold water to be quiet for day long church services in twi. I never saw forced marriages of very young girls to much older men for the sole purpose in life to have children. I never saw the denial of any type of education public or home school in twi in fact the had a college program.
It is the isolation of this group that keeps it powerful, they live together on a mass of land and few travel outside of the compound in their life time.
they can not just leave, in twi you could . problems and family situation included. In this cult you are watched and held 24 /7 if they even think you will go anywhere that is why the girls had to leave in the middle of the night. If you go back you are punished and a lesser member for the doing of it. hmmm that does sound like the twi IM better than you thought.
If you see the community the girls all must where long skirts or long dress, and if they do leave they most probably must leave their children because the father is the boss and to leave in the night with no where to go all of the family lives together with two or three children and probably pregnate is very difficult.
they say many do not leave because of their children , of course the father would have custody ofthe kids if a mom took the kid how could she possibly support it? no education, no skills in coping outside the domination. This lifestyle seems normal to them they are raised in this culture. who am I to say it is wrong?
I did hear some the the people willing to help anyone who wantd to leave the group, the sister who picked these girls upin the nightsaid she thinks they will go back. she has helped another sister of this brother, who had left but went back after staying with her for a few weeks. She said she didnt want to feel "used" by the girls who leave and go back because it is a terrible strain on her. I imagine, these girls have zero skills it would be like taking in alot of work and risking the fact they very well may go back when life gets real on the outside. the money supporting them the time spent trying to help them educate them everything.
although they claim child abuse , and the one brother has stayed out for a number of years with his wifes help, remember it means leaving your entire way of life and your entire family forever. that is a lot on a young teens plate and if an older woman left she would have far to many children to make it outside the cult and would have to leave her children to be raised by other women who have alot of children, and in an atmosphere of abuse , not likely to happen. I was not born into the twi mind set, I realize it is difficult for kids who where born into twi but many did go to public school and have other influence other than the group. It probably is true some teens have chosen to leave twi and been shunned by their family but I never saw it as a wide spread issue when I was in or even encouraged. I know some in the off shoots who have family members (kids) that do not go and they are not shunned. In twi I think it is how a family handled the situation, in this group the cult IS your family they are solid and have a great deal of strict rules and regulation concerning how to conduct your life on a daily bases. I know twi wanted to control, but it appears to me this group and its male leaders do have control of its members.
they can not just leave, in twi you could . problems and family situation included. In this cult you are watched and held 24 /7 if they even think you will go anywhere that is why the girls had to leave in the middle of the night. If you go back you are punished and a lesser member for the doing of it. hmmm that does sound like the twi IM better than you thought.
Did you and I go to the same TWI?
You also said: "I never saw the denial of any type of education public or home school in twi in fact the had a college program".
Do you know how many ex-twi folks are in their 40's and 50's just now finally getting their college education because it wasn't possible in TWI. Personally I tried 4 times to go back to college then, only to be thwarted by them.
Then you said: "I think it is how a family handled the situation, in this group the cult IS your family they are solid and have a great deal of strict rules and regulation concerning how to conduct your life on a daily bases. I know twi wanted to control, but it appears to me this group and its male leaders do have control of its members."
Twi had a two year degree program which allowed a AAS degree, worthless as a two year degree is, it still represents education.
I was in college and worked outside the home all my years of being involved , I never was "thrawted."
Mrs. Weirwille was a RN that is a four year degree!
Martindale went on and on about his college days .
Twi bragged about the accomplishments in education and the military of its followers.
I knew many educated people in twi. Many stupid people as well.
the reason many did not seek higher education is because they chose the "programs" wow, way corps, staff to get involved in with TWI, and did not manage the time well enough to live full lifes. Yes I saw that and thought it is very sad. TWI never had a doctrine set that did not allow higher education for women or men.
but that is a far cry from a fourth grade education that allows you the ability to read and write if your lucky.
Some may have felt the fool and wasted time in life by getting involved in twi, But they never did not allow a person to seek higher education.
I also saw many leave twi and COME back and for the most part they got full support and "love" that is still happening today. Divorce was common in twi. In this cult divorce is NOT an option and they get married at the age of twelve and thirteen and have a child imediately. VPW said to wait a few years to have a child after marriage to be able to learn to love your marriage partner. That is a huge difference in ability to think for ones self and make solid choices.
In this cult if you ESCAPED you where indeed punished the rest of your life. You would be forced to live with one of the other wifesand under constant supervision. In twi you could go anywhere you pleased in this cult they are strictly forbidden, they where beaten down with physical and mental abuse everyday since birth to stay.
I would say that is quite a difference, than twi and its loyal participates. A bad marriage partner while twi is again a far cry from group endorsed abuse from the day your born and how much fear is instilled about leaving.
Sorry but I agree with MJ here. I mean, look at the differences here between the two groups, and yes, there are differences. Big ones.
I know that there are quite a number of people here that wants to make TWI sound as bad and as 'cultish' as they possibly can (and yes, TWI has brought a lot of that on themselves via the abuses), but lets be clear as to what they are and are not guilty of.
As well as to what a 'mind control cult' is, and as to what we think it ought to be. ... Because that's where the hype and emotion often lies.
Sorry but I agree with MJ here. I mean, look at the differences here between the two groups, and yes, there are differences. Big ones.
What year did you leave TWI? The reason I ask is because it got much worse up until a few years after LCM left. Sure, raping kids wasn't rampant and they tried to keep the social aspects of the cult "normal", but they were very controlling.
I remember submitting my personal budget to TWI leaders, filling out paperwork to get permission to go on a weekend trip, etc. That's pretty controlling to me.
Bit of history, this is how the Mormons built Utah and some surrounding areas. Plural wives, boatloads of children and communal living. A few groups refused the federal compromise and stuck to the old ways. This isn’t the only one and for some reason it gets all the attention. They are scattered in remote areas of Utah, Arizona, Idaho and Wyoming.
Also the first wife always had to agree to any more wives, as well as the church leaders. Then she always was the dominate “hen” in the roost.
I agree twi tried to put more people in subjection to rules and regulations as Martindale tried(in vain I think) to regain his leadership position after Geer made the pop annocement.
He only wanted those loyal to HIM as paticipates.
I am referring to the hey day when twi was NOT falling off a cliff and its doctrinal stance on subjects.
We never had to conform or be punished, sure influenced weighed on peoples life style peer presure and the need to belong influenced many into making misfortunate decisions concerning their own personal life and joining the next up- and coming corps or wow program. I agree. But I will also say this when I was very active in twi the members had serious careers and some boatloads of money to "share" . They did what they wanted when they wanted as well. When the clergy came to town for a class or meeting the most affluent folks would entertain them at their houses. I never lived in a poor town or inner city so to be frank I saw alot of surburban two income high middle incomes hosting the class etc. It appears to me it was the young , single or poorer familes that wanted to seek out the programs twi offered. I still live in the same town and many of these families still own businesses , have great big houses kids went to college and many have a large degree of skill in many areas of life. It is my understanding that when a person Joined into the Corps program it was to dedicate their life in service to God and the movement of his word so naturaly everything eles would be secondary. clergy as well. It was a "calling" they had to feel and it was not mandatory anyone be in the corps program to belong, far from THAT it was all the rest of us who had the money who supported them!!!! Moneyie stable life and income came from good solid citizens that had community, businesses and family commintments outside of twi.
I think many troubled people joined twi and found out an easy way to get involved in something to which they could belong, so they sought twi and its programs , I know many more folks who just had twigs or fellowships , went to work everyday , took a few reruns on the classes haha and lived regular Americana lifestyle, and they in my opinion is why it was so popular and able to have the type of financial success twi did. When the control issues got larger and the people so dependent on what twi said for answers demanded more Martindale couldnt deliver , people started to whine leadership had a split and twi got noticably smaller...
I was in from 1972 until 1986 and "semi-in" (in but highly skeptical) until 1989. I never saw or heard about the level of control in twi that this group in Utah apparently exerts over its members.
I knew of no one in twi who was forced to marry at 13 or younger and become a baby factory to a man with multiple wives. I knew no one who had to (at least knowingly!) share her husband with several other women.
I understand that twi became much more controlling in the years after I left, but I don't see that the degree of control came anywhere near this group's.
PMosh said:
"I remember submitting my personal budget to TWI leaders, filling out paperwork to get permission to go on a weekend trip, etc. That's pretty controlling to me."
Yes, it is. But did anyone stop you from leaving when you got fed up with that? I know family and peer pressure can make it emotionally difficult to leave, and I know people tried to talk their friends into staying, and I know LCM did his "grease spot by midnight" rant, but the fact that thousands have departed indicates to me that the control wasn't insurmountable.
Now, now, no need to go ape, Shellon. Just take a deep breath, pop open a Bud Lite (or your preference of beer), relax, and just keep telling yourself, "It's just a thread on a message board. ... It's just a thread on a message board. ... It's just a thread on a message board. ..."
relax, and just keep telling yourself, "It's just a thread on a message board. ... It's just a thread on a message board. ... It's just a thread on a message board. ..."
The Mormon church I was part of never did these things, most Mormons are oblivious to what groups like the Canyon City group are doing. So, of course they don’t exist and it never happened.
Just like the TWI I was part of was a good “Christian” group of bible believing folks with great hearts towards G-D. Are there similarities here that we can see, draw from and perhaps learn from?
The Canyon City group raises it females to be subject to men and the men which get them are selected by the leaders. Top leaders in TWI, male and female groomed women to fulfill the duty of satisfying the special group of men. God made them beautiful for a purpose and that purpose was servicing G-D’s elite few.
These few chosen women were then kept separate as much as possible, assigned to jobs where they were handy for the service desired. Other women were used for one night stands and tossed aside.
Now many of these chosen ones were instructed who they should marry. Many were denied the blessing of the inner circle if they chose to marry an unapproved husband.
When women lost the favor of the elite, many were driven away and scandalous lies told about them. Some were driven from the only life they had and had known for years.
The canyon City group would equal TWI’s headquarters inner circle. The Mormon church equals the vast majority of wayfers, never seeing or hearing of the evil.
Nobody is saying that the stuff that you experienced in TWI 'never happened', but how what happened in TWI compares to what that other group did.
Also keep in mind that just because you 'experienced it', doesn't make you the default expert, because there are others who also 'experienced' TWI like you did, and they come away with different interpretations/conclusions as to what it was, what was involved, and what they were able to do or not do (including going to college). And from what I've read in people's accounts here re: TWI, even during the 90s, leadership was looking for at least some of its members to attend college, because at least they could then get more high-earning members involved, those who could then pay a higher abundant sharing.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
4
7
7
6
Popular Days
May 8
19
May 2
9
Apr 29
8
May 3
5
Top Posters In This Topic
mj412 4 posts
GarthP2000 7 posts
CoolWaters 7 posts
Shellon 6 posts
Popular Days
May 8 2005
19 posts
May 2 2005
9 posts
Apr 29 2005
8 posts
May 3 2005
5 posts
gc
CoolWaters, did you watch the show?
I was given this link from a friend about the cult they highlighted.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy186.html
gc
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
I saw the last 5 minutes of the show...because I had fallen asleep waiting for the show to come on.
Sigh. Can anything more be said? LOLOLOLOL!
I think Oprah did a show on the same cult...or somebody did sometime awhile ago.
What I got out of the last 5 minutes was Dr Phil telling the girls/women that they should expect to be able to always ask questions...and always want to ask questions...and always expect answers to their questions.
That's pretty good advice...if one knows what questions to ask. Ya know?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
CW,
I watched it. I have been interested in this group because I live in the same county as Colorado City. I started a thread about it awhile back.
Basically Dr. Phil told these girls that he wasn't going to tell them what to do. They are considering going back to Col. City because they miss their moms and siblings. I am sure their "decompression" time coming out of their cult is more difficult than even a lot of us here at GSC had because of the fact that it is their upbringing they are leaving and rebelling against. I really feel for them.
Men are superior to women in this cult, so Dr. Phil didn't want them to look to him as they would any other man who has been in their life. I respected that about Dr. Phil. He also told them that even though he has studied the Bible, there are volumes of what he doesn't know and he would be the first to admit it. But he knows God is a loving God, and He wouldn't strike them dead for leaving.
They encouraged people to give advice on the message boards, but sadly, it is turning in to a debate about Mormons and offshoot groups of Mormons. People are trying to protect that religion, and the real discussion is almost nill. I wish their moderators would post something saying that the topic should be based on advice or encouragement for those girls, not debate over religion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
gc
WN, Thanks. I think I saw something about them some years back, so you might be right.
I agree, when you are taught from birth its so much tougher to get rid of. I know I can still kneel at the right time in a catholic church even though I've only been in one about 5 times in the past 33 years.
gc
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
I saw the show, one of the girls wants to go back to be with her mom and her siblings of which she has like 53 .
the brother who was raised in the cult is the one they are living with, his wife picked them up in the night, the wife was never in the cult and the brother said it was because of her he is able to stay away from all of his family and the group. He claims brutal child abuse. They dunk the babies face in ice cold water if they cry because of the day long services the babies can not interupt, the babies do not cry . They claim the local police are also "members" or friends of the cult and will not help them at all. If they call 911 the members somhow find out before the police arive and the situation is never addressed.
child protective have been called and investigated and have never found an issue. I bet who would dare complain? they get married off as young as ten and must have children right away, one girl spoke of a friend who is 18 and has four children already.
If they go back they will be married off imediately their father would chose, they would have to have children right away and keep on having children. they live with the other wifes of ther husband and the children.
they will never be allowed to be without supervision, other girls have come back and they say they are treatd like they are in prison because they can not be trusted. but to leave such a large family and the only way yu have ever known is so very difficult. One of girls said she believes they are right(the cult) in many areas of life still, men are superiour to woman in every way and woman has zero choices. One said the only difference she has now is she can chose who she marries and how many children she will have.
If they stay out they have a long long way to go to get what this big old world means for them and choices, it would be very very difficult for them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
I had seen something about this cult awhile back...and maybe it was the thread here that got me looking at it...but there was also another TV thingy about it, too.
Anyway, I remember thinking that twi was so very much like this group...only far more secretive about it all...but, in the end, effecting the same and/or similar results.
Sigh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
The local police are men involved in the polygamist group. Everything in this city is involved in this group--the school superintendent, the fire chief, anybody who would be anybody in the community. The locals consist of probably 98% of people from the cult. They vote for who they want, and it all happens to be people from the cult taking these positions. There has been speculation that the monies budgeted from the county have been going to Warren Jeffs, the group's "Prophet". There have been accusations against Jeffs for raping boys.
They believe in "bleeding the beast", meaning they will suck all they can out of the outsiders financially to benefit themselves. The women who are wife #2 and beyond are all on welfare. They collect welfare checks and food stamps. I am sure CPS is there a lot, but in comparison, it probably looks pretty good compared to a meth-hooked mom on welfare. That's the problem when they try to compare. Rape is still rape. Those girls are way too young to be married and having babies. The other problem with that group is they have kicked out younger boys to cut down on the competition for the women. It is a sick situation.
Ironically, they have some of the higher tax rates in the county, and they do not send their children to the public school. I have been in contact with some of the men in this group because of my job with the Assessor's Office. They try to appear respectable, but I never forget these dogs are child molestors. They all have their houses on church-owned property. They don't get their property tax-free because it's based on the USE of the property. The use of most of the church-owned property is followers building their huge houses on them. If they leave the church, they lose their house because it's on the church's property. They really put themselves in a bad situation.
I know of one couple from the group who didn't want their daughter to marry, but lost her to the church because the leaders talked the girl into it. The parents have been to the superior court and everywhere, but to no avail. It's sad, but they are the reason she's there.
They tried for awhile to make it look like they weren't finished on the outside to avoid paying taxes, but the county smartened up on that and started making them pay anyway. Our office spends a whole week going up twice a year to canvass the area for property assessment purposes. It takes about 11 people to accomplish the work in a week. Some of them have pretty extravagant houses with restaurant grade and sized kitchens to feed the massive family. Some do not though. I am not sure how money is made in this community.
The County Sheriff's Department only has what they call a substation in the area. I don't even think it is manned full-time. The Sheriff has enough problems keeping enough staff in the rest of the county. They upped the salaries to help keep the staff from moving to the local police departments, but it is still an issue.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
+++The girls said they went to fourth grade.
what is that about the age of eight or so? They said they learned about the church doctrine in school.
How do people think they can "fit" in in the local high school with other teens? They will not also they say they stillbelieve in much of what they were taught as far as male dominance, why would they not? Dr Phil said they need to "replace that thinking with new thinking they looked at him like he was talking from the moon. ( I get that part somewhat they were trained to think in a certain way and their enitre life is this way of thinking.
I do not agree that twi is like this cult, I never saw babies being dunk in cold water to be quiet for day long church services in twi. I never saw forced marriages of very young girls to much older men for the sole purpose in life to have children. I never saw the denial of any type of education public or home school in twi in fact the had a college program.
It is the isolation of this group that keeps it powerful, they live together on a mass of land and few travel outside of the compound in their life time.
they can not just leave, in twi you could . problems and family situation included. In this cult you are watched and held 24 /7 if they even think you will go anywhere that is why the girls had to leave in the middle of the night. If you go back you are punished and a lesser member for the doing of it. hmmm that does sound like the twi IM better than you thought.
If you see the community the girls all must where long skirts or long dress, and if they do leave they most probably must leave their children because the father is the boss and to leave in the night with no where to go all of the family lives together with two or three children and probably pregnate is very difficult.
they say many do not leave because of their children , of course the father would have custody ofthe kids if a mom took the kid how could she possibly support it? no education, no skills in coping outside the domination. This lifestyle seems normal to them they are raised in this culture. who am I to say it is wrong?
I did hear some the the people willing to help anyone who wantd to leave the group, the sister who picked these girls upin the nightsaid she thinks they will go back. she has helped another sister of this brother, who had left but went back after staying with her for a few weeks. She said she didnt want to feel "used" by the girls who leave and go back because it is a terrible strain on her. I imagine, these girls have zero skills it would be like taking in alot of work and risking the fact they very well may go back when life gets real on the outside. the money supporting them the time spent trying to help them educate them everything.
although they claim child abuse , and the one brother has stayed out for a number of years with his wifes help, remember it means leaving your entire way of life and your entire family forever. that is a lot on a young teens plate and if an older woman left she would have far to many children to make it outside the cult and would have to leave her children to be raised by other women who have alot of children, and in an atmosphere of abuse , not likely to happen. I was not born into the twi mind set, I realize it is difficult for kids who where born into twi but many did go to public school and have other influence other than the group. It probably is true some teens have chosen to leave twi and been shunned by their family but I never saw it as a wide spread issue when I was in or even encouraged. I know some in the off shoots who have family members (kids) that do not go and they are not shunned. In twi I think it is how a family handled the situation, in this group the cult IS your family they are solid and have a great deal of strict rules and regulation concerning how to conduct your life on a daily bases. I know twi wanted to control, but it appears to me this group and its male leaders do have control of its members.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Did you and I go to the same TWI?
You also said: "I never saw the denial of any type of education public or home school in twi in fact the had a college program".
Do you know how many ex-twi folks are in their 40's and 50's just now finally getting their college education because it wasn't possible in TWI. Personally I tried 4 times to go back to college then, only to be thwarted by them.
Then you said: "I think it is how a family handled the situation, in this group the cult IS your family they are solid and have a great deal of strict rules and regulation concerning how to conduct your life on a daily bases. I know twi wanted to control, but it appears to me this group and its male leaders do have control of its members."
Again, I have to ask what TWI you were a part of.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
Many met up with TWI on Campus.
Twi had a two year degree program which allowed a AAS degree, worthless as a two year degree is, it still represents education.
I was in college and worked outside the home all my years of being involved , I never was "thrawted."
Mrs. Weirwille was a RN that is a four year degree!
Martindale went on and on about his college days .
Twi bragged about the accomplishments in education and the military of its followers.
I knew many educated people in twi. Many stupid people as well.
the reason many did not seek higher education is because they chose the "programs" wow, way corps, staff to get involved in with TWI, and did not manage the time well enough to live full lifes. Yes I saw that and thought it is very sad. TWI never had a doctrine set that did not allow higher education for women or men.
but that is a far cry from a fourth grade education that allows you the ability to read and write if your lucky.
Some may have felt the fool and wasted time in life by getting involved in twi, But they never did not allow a person to seek higher education.
I also saw many leave twi and COME back and for the most part they got full support and "love" that is still happening today. Divorce was common in twi. In this cult divorce is NOT an option and they get married at the age of twelve and thirteen and have a child imediately. VPW said to wait a few years to have a child after marriage to be able to learn to love your marriage partner. That is a huge difference in ability to think for ones self and make solid choices.
In this cult if you ESCAPED you where indeed punished the rest of your life. You would be forced to live with one of the other wifesand under constant supervision. In twi you could go anywhere you pleased in this cult they are strictly forbidden, they where beaten down with physical and mental abuse everyday since birth to stay.
I would say that is quite a difference, than twi and its loyal participates. A bad marriage partner while twi is again a far cry from group endorsed abuse from the day your born and how much fear is instilled about leaving.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Ok mj
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Shellon,
Sorry but I agree with MJ here. I mean, look at the differences here between the two groups, and yes, there are differences. Big ones.
I know that there are quite a number of people here that wants to make TWI sound as bad and as 'cultish' as they possibly can (and yes, TWI has brought a lot of that on themselves via the abuses), but lets be clear as to what they are and are not guilty of.
As well as to what a 'mind control cult' is, and as to what we think it ought to be. ... Because that's where the hype and emotion often lies.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
What year did you leave TWI? The reason I ask is because it got much worse up until a few years after LCM left. Sure, raping kids wasn't rampant and they tried to keep the social aspects of the cult "normal", but they were very controlling.
I remember submitting my personal budget to TWI leaders, filling out paperwork to get permission to go on a weekend trip, etc. That's pretty controlling to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wingnut
Bit of history, this is how the Mormons built Utah and some surrounding areas. Plural wives, boatloads of children and communal living. A few groups refused the federal compromise and stuck to the old ways. This isn’t the only one and for some reason it gets all the attention. They are scattered in remote areas of Utah, Arizona, Idaho and Wyoming.
Also the first wife always had to agree to any more wives, as well as the church leaders. Then she always was the dominate “hen” in the roost.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
P-mosh,
Now where did I say that TWI wasn't controlling, hmmm? What I did point out was the levels of control, and the differences between the two groups.
Altho' I left in late 1985, even reading about the current accounts still leaves a significant gap between TWI and this other group.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
I agree twi tried to put more people in subjection to rules and regulations as Martindale tried(in vain I think) to regain his leadership position after Geer made the pop annocement.
He only wanted those loyal to HIM as paticipates.
I am referring to the hey day when twi was NOT falling off a cliff and its doctrinal stance on subjects.
We never had to conform or be punished, sure influenced weighed on peoples life style peer presure and the need to belong influenced many into making misfortunate decisions concerning their own personal life and joining the next up- and coming corps or wow program. I agree. But I will also say this when I was very active in twi the members had serious careers and some boatloads of money to "share" . They did what they wanted when they wanted as well. When the clergy came to town for a class or meeting the most affluent folks would entertain them at their houses. I never lived in a poor town or inner city so to be frank I saw alot of surburban two income high middle incomes hosting the class etc. It appears to me it was the young , single or poorer familes that wanted to seek out the programs twi offered. I still live in the same town and many of these families still own businesses , have great big houses kids went to college and many have a large degree of skill in many areas of life. It is my understanding that when a person Joined into the Corps program it was to dedicate their life in service to God and the movement of his word so naturaly everything eles would be secondary. clergy as well. It was a "calling" they had to feel and it was not mandatory anyone be in the corps program to belong, far from THAT it was all the rest of us who had the money who supported them!!!! Moneyie stable life and income came from good solid citizens that had community, businesses and family commintments outside of twi.
I think many troubled people joined twi and found out an easy way to get involved in something to which they could belong, so they sought twi and its programs , I know many more folks who just had twigs or fellowships , went to work everyday , took a few reruns on the classes haha and lived regular Americana lifestyle, and they in my opinion is why it was so popular and able to have the type of financial success twi did. When the control issues got larger and the people so dependent on what twi said for answers demanded more Martindale couldnt deliver , people started to whine leadership had a split and twi got noticably smaller...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Ok, it's your story you tell it anyway you want.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
I agree with Garth and mj.
I was in from 1972 until 1986 and "semi-in" (in but highly skeptical) until 1989. I never saw or heard about the level of control in twi that this group in Utah apparently exerts over its members.
I knew of no one in twi who was forced to marry at 13 or younger and become a baby factory to a man with multiple wives. I knew no one who had to (at least knowingly!) share her husband with several other women.
I understand that twi became much more controlling in the years after I left, but I don't see that the degree of control came anywhere near this group's.
PMosh said:
"I remember submitting my personal budget to TWI leaders, filling out paperwork to get permission to go on a weekend trip, etc. That's pretty controlling to me."
Yes, it is. But did anyone stop you from leaving when you got fed up with that? I know family and peer pressure can make it emotionally difficult to leave, and I know people tried to talk their friends into staying, and I know LCM did his "grease spot by midnight" rant, but the fact that thousands have departed indicates to me that the control wasn't insurmountable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Now, now, no need to go ape, Shellon. Just take a deep breath, pop open a Bud Lite (or your preference of beer), relax, and just keep telling yourself, "It's just a thread on a message board. ... It's just a thread on a message board. ... It's just a thread on a message board. ..."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Okay, okay, never mind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Hmm.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Yeah, hm is right. It never happened, I was not there, it never happened, I was not there.
It's just a thread on a message board.
Lets just drink beer and not go ape.
Sigh
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wingnut
The Mormon church I was part of never did these things, most Mormons are oblivious to what groups like the Canyon City group are doing. So, of course they don’t exist and it never happened.
Just like the TWI I was part of was a good “Christian” group of bible believing folks with great hearts towards G-D. Are there similarities here that we can see, draw from and perhaps learn from?
The Canyon City group raises it females to be subject to men and the men which get them are selected by the leaders. Top leaders in TWI, male and female groomed women to fulfill the duty of satisfying the special group of men. God made them beautiful for a purpose and that purpose was servicing G-D’s elite few.
These few chosen women were then kept separate as much as possible, assigned to jobs where they were handy for the service desired. Other women were used for one night stands and tossed aside.
Now many of these chosen ones were instructed who they should marry. Many were denied the blessing of the inner circle if they chose to marry an unapproved husband.
When women lost the favor of the elite, many were driven away and scandalous lies told about them. Some were driven from the only life they had and had known for years.
The canyon City group would equal TWI’s headquarters inner circle. The Mormon church equals the vast majority of wayfers, never seeing or hearing of the evil.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Shellon,
Nobody is saying that the stuff that you experienced in TWI 'never happened', but how what happened in TWI compares to what that other group did.
Also keep in mind that just because you 'experienced it', doesn't make you the default expert, because there are others who also 'experienced' TWI like you did, and they come away with different interpretations/conclusions as to what it was, what was involved, and what they were able to do or not do (including going to college). And from what I've read in people's accounts here re: TWI, even during the 90s, leadership was looking for at least some of its members to attend college, because at least they could then get more high-earning members involved, those who could then pay a higher abundant sharing.
So yeah, have a Bud, ... on me.
:P-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.