Renting out the former Pikes Peak Theological Seminary and Shoe Shine Emporium, selling, uh, I mean offering advanced degrees in Biblical subjects such as
Deceiving the Holy Spirit Today
The Bible Tells Me So (or maybe not)
The Lack of Money is the Root of All Evil
Appropriating Other People's Research for Fun and Profit
- Most churches don't have websites warning people to stay away from them. :)-->
I wonder if that's true. First, I would guess that most churches are "cults" with small followings. It would be hard to find out which ones have websites against them. The larger churches, RC, for example, probably do have websites warning of their evils, as well. With "a billion" Catholics around (I think that number is as inflated as "5000" Wayfers), surely SOMEONE must have an anti-Catholic website!
Few churches have leaders that will enter your house, search your closets for untidiness, demand your budget book or tax form for proof of income, require written vacation plans, demand 15% of your income, or kick you out.
Most churches see you on Sunday--and you don't call anybody if you have other plans, unless you're the organist or something.
Most churches have full disclosure of all finances, including the minister's salary, mileage reimbursement, and the Sunday offering amounts.
Nor do you have to obey the minister if (IF) you are counseled in any matter. Counseling is up to the congregant, not the minister, unlike in TWI.
Yes most churches don't require you to fully disclose your finances whilst not disclosing theirs - except perhaps the LDS but even they do not require to know your gross income!
And I don't know of any that would be so intrusive as TWI!
"Few churches have leaders that will enter your house, search your closets for untidiness,"
Once a fellow beleiver did search through our home, looking for banned books. He found some, and he dropped the dime on us.
"... demand your budget book or tax form for proof of income, require written vacation plans, demand 15% of your income, or kick you out."
On the other hand, my hometown Baptist church is known for checking out your income, requiring proof that your giving your full 10% and kicking you out if you dont. I was kicked out for just that reasoning, as a teenager.
:-)
"Nor do you have to obey the minister if (IF) you are counseled in any matter. Counseling is up to the congregant, not the minister, unlike in TWI."
umm, I have seen everything said in 'private' counseling sessons, 'leaked' to the congregation so that they could do the pressuring.
Ooops, that was in both Baptist and Methodist churches, Ooops.
"TWI is nothing like most churches."
In some ways better, some ways worse. But hey I was in a Baptist church, then spent a few years with Methodists.
When I went wow in 1985 the number announced from the podium was 23 thousand in attendance-(which might have been true-esp because wasn't a spot of ground to put a pup tent up-anyone else remember?)
I remember thinking that the "memorial service" for vpw was quite something-and the crush of people inside the main stage tent was stifling. I know it was not called a memorial but can not for the life of me recall the name of it-...the numbers stayed around that number for the next few roa I recall...then pop hit the fan...
Galen--yes, bad things happen in churches, too.(I sure don't belong to one.)
But in a church that is with a denomination, congregants can make complaints known up the change of command.
I've never been involved in a non denom, but I'll bet there are some ethical ones with some type of grievance mediation. Heck, I worked at a Catholic Hospital that had a terrific grievance procedure.
This only happens in TWI if you have friends in higher places than your leadership(for instance, if you are related to or are big buddies with a region coordinator, you have some leverage if you are in deep doodoo with your branch leader.)
A minister who leaks confidential counseling business can be fired, the same way other professionals in counseling can be fired. That doesn't happen in the Way, smear campaigns are part of the whole Mark and Avoid process, and are designed to make the leadership look long suffering and spiritually wise. They dredge up anything they can think of and assign devil spirits. The person who got kicked or walked is spiritual dog poop.
You're not gonna convince me that TWI(2) wasn't much worse than most churches. I saw a dozen(there were more in the branch, but about a dozen that I actually knew) people kicked out and trashed in TWI in just a couple of years.It was just a matter of time before they got to us.
Haven't heard too much about churches doing that, to that extent.
Galen--yes, bad things happen in churches, too.(I sure don't belong to one.)
Haven't heard too much about churches doing that, to that extent.
Hi Bramble, I'm not disagreeing with you about the "most churches", because I don't know the extent of things really. I visit two forums (actually they are sister forums owned by the same man) that were started because of spiritual abuse, You should hear the stories out there! :(-->
When I went wow in 1985 the number announced from the podium was 23 thousand in attendance-(which might have been true-esp because wasn't a spot of ground to put a pup tent up-anyone else remember?)
Andrea -- I don't remember the exact numbers *quoted* about the attendance that year, but 1985 was the last ROA I ever went to, and that was only because it was a *memorial* for docvic.
I do, however, remember the over-crowded conditions, and ended up having to sleep in the back of the station wagon I had at the time since (as you said), there was no *spot of ground* to put up a tent.
Guess there is plenty of room to put up a tent there now, eh??
"Galen--yes, bad things happen in churches, too.(I sure don't belong to one.)
But in a church that is with a denomination, congregants can make complaints known up the change of command.
I've never been involved in a non denom, but I'll bet there are some ethical ones with some type of grievance mediation. Heck, I worked at a Catholic Hospital that had a terrific grievance procedure."
Hmm, I was never envolved with a non-denom church either, so I really dont know about those. My experiences and those of my family are entirely from within the big denoms.
You know ministers making it with their secratarys [or town prostitute], offerings used to buy weapons in South America for contras [used to slay everyone in various missionarys]. YOu know the standad fair of Baptist/Methodist goings-on.
If 1,600 attended the AC special, and we know that's probably about 90% of TWI and most of that 90% will have loyally attended the special, then there are easily only about 2,000 maybe 2,300 adults in TWI.
12 Regions and the largest is 300 or 400. There's no way there are 300 in each region, so how much money are those region coordinators getting paid to oversee 50 people? Wasn't there a time where a branch had to have 50 people in order for the corpse to qualify for full time status?
"If 1,600 attended the AC special, and we know that's probably about 90% of TWI and most of that 90% will have loyally attended the special, then there are easily only about 2,000 maybe 2,300 adults in TWI."
If AC specials are only for the AC grads, that might change things a bit.
I was 'in' from 1978-1985 before I took the AC. While I do think that if a person is going to stay 'in' they will most certainly take the AC eventually, I dont think that most do it within their first year. So that would bump the numbers up a little, maybe as high as doubling them.
How many AC grads see these things every year or two coming down the pike, and as such dont go to everyone of them. I remember going to one, Bonnie skipped even going to that one. Between work commitments and simple 'lack of beieving'; I would ahve to think that as many as half AC grads would not go to a special in any given year.
Just like the ROA, Some went to them, most did not. I went to one, Bonnie has gone to two [but she was an 'innie' far longer than I was].
If half your followers are AC-grads, and of the AC-grads anywhere from a third to half of them will show up for a 'Special' then 1,600 showing could mean 3,200 total AC-grads and 6,400 followers. [that is exclusive of WC folks, just talking about the Joe Beleivers. I have no idea of what or when WC go to things].
:-)
"12 Regions and the largest is 300 or 400. There's no way there are 300 in each region, so how much money are those region coordinators getting paid to oversee 50 people? Wasn't there a time where a branch had to have 50 people in order for the corpse to qualify for full time status?"
By 'full-time status' do you mean paid? If so I never saw that happen. I have no idea what the policys were. Besides that would only apply to branchs with WC in them.
I think I can speak to some of the questions you had...
AC Specials - If you were an AC and didn't go to the AC Special it was either because you were in debt OR you were fixin' to get the holy boot from leadership because you had a family emergency or had to work or something and could not attend it. I would say that the attendance of the AC Specials was about 90% of the AC grads in an area - maybe that percent is a little high - but I wouldn't say it would be any lower than 80%.
Branch numbers - TWI was getting away from the whole tree terminology in the late 90's. They were calling it an old wine skin. Truth was, few areas had 50+ people for a true branch. Plus, believers were told to move closer to leadership, so in reality most limb coordinators were also running twig areas (or household fellowship areas, excuuussseee me!)
After the Way Corps stopped the full time program - what a waste of ABS that was! - the only WC who were still on the payroll were those who were overseeing areas of 100+ people. In the New England area (ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT...) I know of only two Way Corps couples who were full time in the late 90's - one was the Limb Coordinators of CT, the other was the Regional Coordinators! That was IT! At that time, NH and VT had a combined limb of less than 50, ME had less than 30, and MA & RI had a combined limb of less than 70.
By the way - these numbers are from BEFORE RFR was placed as president - remember, there was somewhat of a fallout from the news about LCM's 'poor judgement' or whatever the hell TWI called it....
Galen, by the time craig was ousted there weren't really that many people left who weren't AC grads...mostly just kids because there were so few new people. If you don't count the kids, I would say that probably 95-98% of the adults in TWI are AC Grads.
Of those AC Grads, the pressure is pretty darn intense to go to the AC Special. It's touted as one of THE most spiritually important events in the ministry. Unlike your time in TWI, most AC Grads do go to this event. Even if a couple can not afford for both parties to go, at least one of them is sent. Again, remember that times changed drastically from your involvement in TWI. ;)--> When I was in, the area was like a ghost town because everyone was gone. We didn't even have fellowship because there were so few people.
The WC were pretty much required to attend if I remember correctly. Maybe a few were granted "special exception" to stay in the area and "stand in the gap" for the believers who couldn't go. I know they paid for the in-residence corps to go last time. At least I think they paid for them.....could be wrong, but the in-residence were there to work their arses off.
Regarding full time status (yes that's what I meant by paid), when craig sent the WC to full time status it was for branch as well as limb and region coordinators. Our BC's only had maybe 80 people in our branch and they were paid in full by TWI so that they could micro-manage our lives. The rules began to change as they began to realize that it was a stupid idea. I think 50 or 100 was the cut off for being able to stay full time.
The BC in Tampa falsley inflated his numbers for as long as he could before being sent back to the "real world" of working men and women.
I can confirm what Belle said... with a few additions. If you had any debt, you could not attend the A/C special. I think that in the past few years, a few more people may have stayed home because they bought a house and had a mortgage "debt". Seems more people were willing to break that part of the "debt rule" and give up some of their TWI privileges to own their own home.
Regarding WayPay - after LCM realized he was bankrupting TWI by having so many full time employees who weren't earning their keep - a Corps flunkie had to have at least 100 active participants in their area to retain their full time status.
Regarding full timers - the BC here got lucky for a while. Tampa Bay had been split into two branches - the Tampa Branch and the "Soncoast" branch (Pinellas county - that includes St. Pete, Clearwater and other W. coast cities).
The Corps couple who ran the Pinellas branch were transferred to the East Coast of Florida to run a branch over there. The branches were combined into one Tampa Bay Area branch and therefore became much larger - about 120 to 130 people. So when the full time status was pulled from everyone else, the BC here was one of the only Corps who remained on WayPay in Florida. Actually, I think it was only him and Rev. Moneyhands who were full-timers.
Many of us bailed out during the first law-suit. Some never announced their departure, the simply stopped coming. I heard from an innie that the monthly branch meetings dwindled down to 60 or 70 attendees - including kids. This went on for months, perhaps even a year, before the BC here was finally told to go get a real job.
I don't know how big the branch is now. I'd bet it's no bigger than it was 4 years ago, probably smaller - unless people have moved here from other areas.
In the New England area (ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT...) I know of only two Way Corps couples who were full time in the late 90's - one was the Limb Coordinators of CT, the other was the Regional Coordinators!
Are you saying that CT had one of the largest fellowships in New England? Hard to believe!!
In the New England area (ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT...) I know of only two Way Corps couples who were full time in the late 90's - one was the Limb Coordinators of CT, the other was the Regional Coordinators!
Are you saying that CT had one of the largest fellowships in New England? Hard to believe!!
Not that hard to believe.
Membership increases in an area are ONLY due to members from OTHER areas moving
INTO your area.
With an aging membership, states where people move as they get older will get
more members.
Ct is seen as a place to settle down and raise kids.
So, you might see membership in a 5-state area migrate to places like Ct and Fl, say.
There were 1000 people who attended the first ROA. As previously stated here there was a 250% increase in attendance at ROA 72 to 2500.
ROA moved from two flatbed trailers at HQ grounds to the Shelby County Fairgrounds because there were too many people coming to accomodate @ HQ. Bill Winegarner & Art Poling (Way Builders Coordinator) had the sense then to project that the amount of $$$$ it took to rent the Fairgrounds and put on ROA off site over a period of years coud be "better spent" by investing it into HQ grounds and building a custom designed temporary 'city' to accomodate the believers who came home for ROA.
Way Builders built electrical, phone, computer, and sewage to support about 25,000. There were long range plans to expand the grounds as needed. I distinctly remember being told at an HQ Staff meeting that it was decided to lay enough phone and computer network lines through the ROA grounds that they would last 100 years.
The percentage of believers who came to ROA was never anywhere near 50% during the 80's. I don't remember the exact number, but I do remember the goal was 25,000 in attendance. The most we got was the around 23,000 and that figure leveled off to around 18 - 19K in the mid 80's. We, the rank & file staffers were largely unaware of the sexual & other atrocities being perpetrated on the field; motorocach "visits" et al.
It took about 4 to 5,000 people to put on ROA, just to adequately staff it. The main tent @ ROA was custom built by the tent company to fit the black asphalt area it sat on @ HQ to accomodate ROA every year. It can seat 15,000 depending on the seat configuration and, at least at that time was the largest canvas tent in the world. ROA was listed in the Guiness Book of World Records as the largest tent covered area in the world.
Its interesting to me how we started asking people about who was planning on coming to ROA in order to be able to properly accomodate the numbers. Then it turned in to telling people "you better come, or else" for events after "the purge."
The biggest group of WOW's was somewhere around 32 - 3800. The goal was 4000 WOW's in one year. Between 1972 and 1983 there was a nearly 900% increase in ROA attendance. They expanded the camping area; Mr. Poppe, who had said he'd only sell his land to TWI over his dead body, died - his kids sold some land to TWI. They expanded the camping area and moved the teens way out there in the woods, noise & all.
The dorm was built thinking that during ROA off the field older leadership types could stay there during Corps Week ROA. It was much like when I make my kids sleep on the floor in their sleeping bags & give up their beds for adults when they visit.
Empty beds now.
The TWI staff at Hq was about 800 at its max, 95% of us were officed in the OSC.
The highest number I remember was an estimate of 300,000 TWI followers worldwide. Perhaps only 100,000 were considered active? There were about 4500 Way Corps graps (about 75% ???) who refused to "take the mark of the beast" by pledging allegiance to LCM. Most of them had "top" positions, the leftovers stepped in , or should I say UP into the vacant positions.
Given the numbers of current TWI folk it is easy to see how that have LOTS of empty space @ TWI. No wonder they started ordering folks to come to events.... Gotta justify the electric bill!
They had bought more and more land around the original Wierwille family farm to where they now own over 300 acres.
No one in the NK area will buy any land back from TWI. They have buildings around the area that they "use" just because they have them. Some Way stuff has been on sale for years. The local corporations like Crown Equpiment Corp., Minster Machine and Honda are true world class organizations they don't buy the TWI inflated bullcrap. They know what is valuable & what isn't. Plus they have enough $$ to procure their own lands & build their facilities as they see fit.
I do think it was Crown who bought TWI's hangar at NK airport. That hangar was valuable. Who wants a 1500 seat auditorium in the middle of nowhere?
In contrast. The church I attend in Dayton, Christian Life Center, or CLC averages about 2,200 people per weekend, about 3-400 per week for mid-week service and we bring in about $73,000 per week in the offerings. Most of our classes are free. Some that have materials, like books & stuff there is a fee for the book (around $12.00), but if you honestly can't afford it, keep it anyway; we want you to have it. We have about 1500 families published in our member directory.
A large percentage of the 1500 are married with kids, and the church has been around for a few decades, so I have no idea how large our membership plus non member number of people actually is. 8 to 9,000 would be a conservative estimate.
Dayton, Ohio is one small city and CLC is one of many large churches in our one small city.
As someone said earlier... TWI's current numbers represent the fact that they are D-E-A-D. Now. Not dying - - dead. They have reached a point on the life-cycle chart where the 'leader's' do what they do because they've been doing it and the followers come because they've been comimg.
Its "what they've always done," so they keep coming and doing the same ol' stuff. In TWI's case, the same ol stuff is being different than the old ol' stuff.
When LCM took over - - "We're not like that anymore." Now with Rosalie that're moving "Beyond the mistakes and errors in judgement of the past administraytion.
Twi's gig has always been to give folks hope of this great future. "Word over the World" changed to "The Prevailing Word" not there is this aparent hope of 'restoration.'
"Things are better now, you should come to a Sunday Service...." a very old and once dear friend of mine who has remained "in" through all of the years said that to me about a year ago at a NK High School track meet. I looked at her, smiled and said "I don't think so."
If you're still "in" take notice of these facts:
1. Word over the World never happened.
2. The Word is NOT Prevailing, even in TWI.
3. Just because you don't have Craig screaming like a lunatic every week does not mean "things" are "good." Better than horrible is still bad.
Rosalie and the trustees are not going anywhere - - ever. You are there to keep bodies in the seats and keep the lights on. TWI will continue to exist without you. They only need you so they can continued with their charade of being a "ministry." I ministry has to have people, right?
How can you be proud to celebrate that in "...62 Years of Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship" you were able to get an many people to attend your celebration as did the first major event of the ministry over 33 YEARS ago?
How many people from ROA '71 were there @ 62'nd Anniversary?
TWI is dead. Stop giving them your money. Give 10 - 15% of your income to your neighbor down the street or around the block who lost his job. See how blessed you feel after doing something REAL for somebody. Do something, anything with your money other than paying the electric bill in the empty buildings or paying the salaries of TWI staff members.
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igotout
Sadly, thay have lots of OUR money to live on indefinitely if they so desire.
Camp Gunnison, Inc. is valuable, worth I would guess $20 million.
TWI has tens of millions from what I hear.
The leadership can live comfortably off that until they croak.
But if I were an average participant, I would stop contibuting NOW. It seems to be such a waste of money.
"Your Abundant Sharing at Work."
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Kevlar2000
Renting out the former Pikes Peak Theological Seminary and Shoe Shine Emporium, selling, uh, I mean offering advanced degrees in Biblical subjects such as
Deceiving the Holy Spirit Today
The Bible Tells Me So (or maybe not)
The Lack of Money is the Root of All Evil
Appropriating Other People's Research for Fun and Profit
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GeorgeStGeorge
I wonder if that's true. First, I would guess that most churches are "cults" with small followings. It would be hard to find out which ones have websites against them. The larger churches, RC, for example, probably do have websites warning of their evils, as well. With "a billion" Catholics around (I think that number is as inflated as "5000" Wayfers), surely SOMEONE must have an anti-Catholic website!
George
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Bramble
Few churches have leaders that will enter your house, search your closets for untidiness, demand your budget book or tax form for proof of income, require written vacation plans, demand 15% of your income, or kick you out.
Most churches see you on Sunday--and you don't call anybody if you have other plans, unless you're the organist or something.
Most churches have full disclosure of all finances, including the minister's salary, mileage reimbursement, and the Sunday offering amounts.
Nor do you have to obey the minister if (IF) you are counseled in any matter. Counseling is up to the congregant, not the minister, unlike in TWI.
TWI is nothing like most churches.
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Trefor Heywood
Yes most churches don't require you to fully disclose your finances whilst not disclosing theirs - except perhaps the LDS but even they do not require to know your gross income!
And I don't know of any that would be so intrusive as TWI!
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wingnut
Mormons have tithe settlement day, much like a tax day for the *faithful*. Depends on the bishop in charge, some require you bring in your tax forms.
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sirguessalot
Reminds me of a documentary on the Shakers I saw a few years back. They were down to something like 7 very old women left in the whole religion.
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Galen
Bramble:
"Few churches have leaders that will enter your house, search your closets for untidiness,"
Once a fellow beleiver did search through our home, looking for banned books. He found some, and he dropped the dime on us.
"... demand your budget book or tax form for proof of income, require written vacation plans, demand 15% of your income, or kick you out."
On the other hand, my hometown Baptist church is known for checking out your income, requiring proof that your giving your full 10% and kicking you out if you dont. I was kicked out for just that reasoning, as a teenager.
:-)
"Nor do you have to obey the minister if (IF) you are counseled in any matter. Counseling is up to the congregant, not the minister, unlike in TWI."
umm, I have seen everything said in 'private' counseling sessons, 'leaked' to the congregation so that they could do the pressuring.
Ooops, that was in both Baptist and Methodist churches, Ooops.
"TWI is nothing like most churches."
In some ways better, some ways worse. But hey I was in a Baptist church, then spent a few years with Methodists.
:-)
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andreatheflorist
When I went wow in 1985 the number announced from the podium was 23 thousand in attendance-(which might have been true-esp because wasn't a spot of ground to put a pup tent up-anyone else remember?)
I remember thinking that the "memorial service" for vpw was quite something-and the crush of people inside the main stage tent was stifling. I know it was not called a memorial but can not for the life of me recall the name of it-...the numbers stayed around that number for the next few roa I recall...then pop hit the fan...
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Bramble
Galen--yes, bad things happen in churches, too.(I sure don't belong to one.)
But in a church that is with a denomination, congregants can make complaints known up the change of command.
I've never been involved in a non denom, but I'll bet there are some ethical ones with some type of grievance mediation. Heck, I worked at a Catholic Hospital that had a terrific grievance procedure.
This only happens in TWI if you have friends in higher places than your leadership(for instance, if you are related to or are big buddies with a region coordinator, you have some leverage if you are in deep doodoo with your branch leader.)
A minister who leaks confidential counseling business can be fired, the same way other professionals in counseling can be fired. That doesn't happen in the Way, smear campaigns are part of the whole Mark and Avoid process, and are designed to make the leadership look long suffering and spiritually wise. They dredge up anything they can think of and assign devil spirits. The person who got kicked or walked is spiritual dog poop.
You're not gonna convince me that TWI(2) wasn't much worse than most churches. I saw a dozen(there were more in the branch, but about a dozen that I actually knew) people kicked out and trashed in TWI in just a couple of years.It was just a matter of time before they got to us.
Haven't heard too much about churches doing that, to that extent.
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gc
Hi Bramble, I'm not disagreeing with you about the "most churches", because I don't know the extent of things really. I visit two forums (actually they are sister forums owned by the same man) that were started because of spiritual abuse, You should hear the stories out there!
:(-->
gc
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dmiller
Andrea -- I don't remember the exact numbers *quoted* about the attendance that year, but 1985 was the last ROA I ever went to, and that was only because it was a *memorial* for docvic.
I do, however, remember the over-crowded conditions, and ended up having to sleep in the back of the station wagon I had at the time since (as you said), there was no *spot of ground* to put up a tent.
Guess there is plenty of room to put up a tent there now, eh??
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Galen
Bramble:
"Galen--yes, bad things happen in churches, too.(I sure don't belong to one.)
But in a church that is with a denomination, congregants can make complaints known up the change of command.
I've never been involved in a non denom, but I'll bet there are some ethical ones with some type of grievance mediation. Heck, I worked at a Catholic Hospital that had a terrific grievance procedure."
Hmm, I was never envolved with a non-denom church either, so I really dont know about those. My experiences and those of my family are entirely from within the big denoms.
You know ministers making it with their secratarys [or town prostitute], offerings used to buy weapons in South America for contras [used to slay everyone in various missionarys]. YOu know the standad fair of Baptist/Methodist goings-on.
:-)
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Belle
If 1,600 attended the AC special, and we know that's probably about 90% of TWI and most of that 90% will have loyally attended the special, then there are easily only about 2,000 maybe 2,300 adults in TWI.
12 Regions and the largest is 300 or 400. There's no way there are 300 in each region, so how much money are those region coordinators getting paid to oversee 50 people? Wasn't there a time where a branch had to have 50 people in order for the corpse to qualify for full time status?
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Galen
Belle:
"If 1,600 attended the AC special, and we know that's probably about 90% of TWI and most of that 90% will have loyally attended the special, then there are easily only about 2,000 maybe 2,300 adults in TWI."
If AC specials are only for the AC grads, that might change things a bit.
I was 'in' from 1978-1985 before I took the AC. While I do think that if a person is going to stay 'in' they will most certainly take the AC eventually, I dont think that most do it within their first year. So that would bump the numbers up a little, maybe as high as doubling them.
How many AC grads see these things every year or two coming down the pike, and as such dont go to everyone of them. I remember going to one, Bonnie skipped even going to that one. Between work commitments and simple 'lack of beieving'; I would ahve to think that as many as half AC grads would not go to a special in any given year.
Just like the ROA, Some went to them, most did not. I went to one, Bonnie has gone to two [but she was an 'innie' far longer than I was].
If half your followers are AC-grads, and of the AC-grads anywhere from a third to half of them will show up for a 'Special' then 1,600 showing could mean 3,200 total AC-grads and 6,400 followers. [that is exclusive of WC folks, just talking about the Joe Beleivers. I have no idea of what or when WC go to things].
:-)
"12 Regions and the largest is 300 or 400. There's no way there are 300 in each region, so how much money are those region coordinators getting paid to oversee 50 people? Wasn't there a time where a branch had to have 50 people in order for the corpse to qualify for full time status?"
By 'full-time status' do you mean paid? If so I never saw that happen. I have no idea what the policys were. Besides that would only apply to branchs with WC in them.
:-)
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ChasUFarley
Galen --
I think I can speak to some of the questions you had...
AC Specials - If you were an AC and didn't go to the AC Special it was either because you were in debt OR you were fixin' to get the holy boot from leadership because you had a family emergency or had to work or something and could not attend it. I would say that the attendance of the AC Specials was about 90% of the AC grads in an area - maybe that percent is a little high - but I wouldn't say it would be any lower than 80%.
Branch numbers - TWI was getting away from the whole tree terminology in the late 90's. They were calling it an old wine skin. Truth was, few areas had 50+ people for a true branch. Plus, believers were told to move closer to leadership, so in reality most limb coordinators were also running twig areas (or household fellowship areas, excuuussseee me!)
After the Way Corps stopped the full time program - what a waste of ABS that was! - the only WC who were still on the payroll were those who were overseeing areas of 100+ people. In the New England area (ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT...) I know of only two Way Corps couples who were full time in the late 90's - one was the Limb Coordinators of CT, the other was the Regional Coordinators! That was IT! At that time, NH and VT had a combined limb of less than 50, ME had less than 30, and MA & RI had a combined limb of less than 70.
By the way - these numbers are from BEFORE RFR was placed as president - remember, there was somewhat of a fallout from the news about LCM's 'poor judgement' or whatever the hell TWI called it....
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Trefor Heywood
Wingnut:
The Bishop is supposed to know "by the Holy Spirit" if one is telling porkies during tithing settlement.
Notably such credit is lacking in TWI !
:D-->
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Trefor Heywood
sirguessalot:
The Shakers can only recruit, they cannot increase numbers by breeding.
It's a surprise they have lasted this long!
;)-->
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Belle
Galen, by the time craig was ousted there weren't really that many people left who weren't AC grads...mostly just kids because there were so few new people. If you don't count the kids, I would say that probably 95-98% of the adults in TWI are AC Grads.
Of those AC Grads, the pressure is pretty darn intense to go to the AC Special. It's touted as one of THE most spiritually important events in the ministry. Unlike your time in TWI, most AC Grads do go to this event. Even if a couple can not afford for both parties to go, at least one of them is sent. Again, remember that times changed drastically from your involvement in TWI.
;)--> When I was in, the area was like a ghost town because everyone was gone. We didn't even have fellowship because there were so few people.
The WC were pretty much required to attend if I remember correctly. Maybe a few were granted "special exception" to stay in the area and "stand in the gap" for the believers who couldn't go. I know they paid for the in-residence corps to go last time. At least I think they paid for them.....could be wrong, but the in-residence were there to work their arses off.
Regarding full time status (yes that's what I meant by paid), when craig sent the WC to full time status it was for branch as well as limb and region coordinators. Our BC's only had maybe 80 people in our branch and they were paid in full by TWI so that they could micro-manage our lives. The rules began to change as they began to realize that it was a stupid idea. I think 50 or 100 was the cut off for being able to stay full time.
The BC in Tampa falsley inflated his numbers for as long as he could before being sent back to the "real world" of working men and women.
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Galen
Belle-
Wow a lot of changes since we left in 1997.
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Hope R.
I can confirm what Belle said... with a few additions. If you had any debt, you could not attend the A/C special. I think that in the past few years, a few more people may have stayed home because they bought a house and had a mortgage "debt". Seems more people were willing to break that part of the "debt rule" and give up some of their TWI privileges to own their own home.
Regarding WayPay - after LCM realized he was bankrupting TWI by having so many full time employees who weren't earning their keep - a Corps flunkie had to have at least 100 active participants in their area to retain their full time status.
Regarding full timers - the BC here got lucky for a while. Tampa Bay had been split into two branches - the Tampa Branch and the "Soncoast" branch (Pinellas county - that includes St. Pete, Clearwater and other W. coast cities).
The Corps couple who ran the Pinellas branch were transferred to the East Coast of Florida to run a branch over there. The branches were combined into one Tampa Bay Area branch and therefore became much larger - about 120 to 130 people. So when the full time status was pulled from everyone else, the BC here was one of the only Corps who remained on WayPay in Florida. Actually, I think it was only him and Rev. Moneyhands who were full-timers.
Many of us bailed out during the first law-suit. Some never announced their departure, the simply stopped coming. I heard from an innie that the monthly branch meetings dwindled down to 60 or 70 attendees - including kids. This went on for months, perhaps even a year, before the BC here was finally told to go get a real job.
I don't know how big the branch is now. I'd bet it's no bigger than it was 4 years ago, probably smaller - unless people have moved here from other areas.
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My3Cents
Are you saying that CT had one of the largest fellowships in New England? Hard to believe!!
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WordWolf
Not that hard to believe.
Membership increases in an area are ONLY due to members from OTHER areas moving
INTO your area.
With an aging membership, states where people move as they get older will get
more members.
Ct is seen as a place to settle down and raise kids.
So, you might see membership in a 5-state area migrate to places like Ct and Fl, say.
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HCW
In terms of comparison.
There were 1000 people who attended the first ROA. As previously stated here there was a 250% increase in attendance at ROA 72 to 2500.
ROA moved from two flatbed trailers at HQ grounds to the Shelby County Fairgrounds because there were too many people coming to accomodate @ HQ. Bill Winegarner & Art Poling (Way Builders Coordinator) had the sense then to project that the amount of $$$$ it took to rent the Fairgrounds and put on ROA off site over a period of years coud be "better spent" by investing it into HQ grounds and building a custom designed temporary 'city' to accomodate the believers who came home for ROA.
Way Builders built electrical, phone, computer, and sewage to support about 25,000. There were long range plans to expand the grounds as needed. I distinctly remember being told at an HQ Staff meeting that it was decided to lay enough phone and computer network lines through the ROA grounds that they would last 100 years.
The percentage of believers who came to ROA was never anywhere near 50% during the 80's. I don't remember the exact number, but I do remember the goal was 25,000 in attendance. The most we got was the around 23,000 and that figure leveled off to around 18 - 19K in the mid 80's. We, the rank & file staffers were largely unaware of the sexual & other atrocities being perpetrated on the field; motorocach "visits" et al.
It took about 4 to 5,000 people to put on ROA, just to adequately staff it. The main tent @ ROA was custom built by the tent company to fit the black asphalt area it sat on @ HQ to accomodate ROA every year. It can seat 15,000 depending on the seat configuration and, at least at that time was the largest canvas tent in the world. ROA was listed in the Guiness Book of World Records as the largest tent covered area in the world.
Its interesting to me how we started asking people about who was planning on coming to ROA in order to be able to properly accomodate the numbers. Then it turned in to telling people "you better come, or else" for events after "the purge."
The biggest group of WOW's was somewhere around 32 - 3800. The goal was 4000 WOW's in one year. Between 1972 and 1983 there was a nearly 900% increase in ROA attendance. They expanded the camping area; Mr. Poppe, who had said he'd only sell his land to TWI over his dead body, died - his kids sold some land to TWI. They expanded the camping area and moved the teens way out there in the woods, noise & all.
The dorm was built thinking that during ROA off the field older leadership types could stay there during Corps Week ROA. It was much like when I make my kids sleep on the floor in their sleeping bags & give up their beds for adults when they visit.
Empty beds now.
The TWI staff at Hq was about 800 at its max, 95% of us were officed in the OSC.
The highest number I remember was an estimate of 300,000 TWI followers worldwide. Perhaps only 100,000 were considered active? There were about 4500 Way Corps graps (about 75% ???) who refused to "take the mark of the beast" by pledging allegiance to LCM. Most of them had "top" positions, the leftovers stepped in , or should I say UP into the vacant positions.
Given the numbers of current TWI folk it is easy to see how that have LOTS of empty space @ TWI. No wonder they started ordering folks to come to events.... Gotta justify the electric bill!
They had bought more and more land around the original Wierwille family farm to where they now own over 300 acres.
No one in the NK area will buy any land back from TWI. They have buildings around the area that they "use" just because they have them. Some Way stuff has been on sale for years. The local corporations like Crown Equpiment Corp., Minster Machine and Honda are true world class organizations they don't buy the TWI inflated bullcrap. They know what is valuable & what isn't. Plus they have enough $$ to procure their own lands & build their facilities as they see fit.
I do think it was Crown who bought TWI's hangar at NK airport. That hangar was valuable. Who wants a 1500 seat auditorium in the middle of nowhere?
In contrast. The church I attend in Dayton, Christian Life Center, or CLC averages about 2,200 people per weekend, about 3-400 per week for mid-week service and we bring in about $73,000 per week in the offerings. Most of our classes are free. Some that have materials, like books & stuff there is a fee for the book (around $12.00), but if you honestly can't afford it, keep it anyway; we want you to have it. We have about 1500 families published in our member directory.
A large percentage of the 1500 are married with kids, and the church has been around for a few decades, so I have no idea how large our membership plus non member number of people actually is. 8 to 9,000 would be a conservative estimate.
Dayton, Ohio is one small city and CLC is one of many large churches in our one small city.
As someone said earlier... TWI's current numbers represent the fact that they are D-E-A-D. Now. Not dying - - dead. They have reached a point on the life-cycle chart where the 'leader's' do what they do because they've been doing it and the followers come because they've been comimg.
Its "what they've always done," so they keep coming and doing the same ol' stuff. In TWI's case, the same ol stuff is being different than the old ol' stuff.
When LCM took over - - "We're not like that anymore." Now with Rosalie that're moving "Beyond the mistakes and errors in judgement of the past administraytion.
Twi's gig has always been to give folks hope of this great future. "Word over the World" changed to "The Prevailing Word" not there is this aparent hope of 'restoration.'
"Things are better now, you should come to a Sunday Service...." a very old and once dear friend of mine who has remained "in" through all of the years said that to me about a year ago at a NK High School track meet. I looked at her, smiled and said "I don't think so."
If you're still "in" take notice of these facts:
1. Word over the World never happened.
2. The Word is NOT Prevailing, even in TWI.
3. Just because you don't have Craig screaming like a lunatic every week does not mean "things" are "good." Better than horrible is still bad.
Rosalie and the trustees are not going anywhere - - ever. You are there to keep bodies in the seats and keep the lights on. TWI will continue to exist without you. They only need you so they can continued with their charade of being a "ministry." I ministry has to have people, right?
How can you be proud to celebrate that in "...62 Years of Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship" you were able to get an many people to attend your celebration as did the first major event of the ministry over 33 YEARS ago?
How many people from ROA '71 were there @ 62'nd Anniversary?
TWI is dead. Stop giving them your money. Give 10 - 15% of your income to your neighbor down the street or around the block who lost his job. See how blessed you feel after doing something REAL for somebody. Do something, anything with your money other than paying the electric bill in the empty buildings or paying the salaries of TWI staff members.
What does TWI actually DO nowadays anyway?
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