John -- I haven't a clue as to how many are still involved these days (I just found out recently that there is an active *limb* here in Minnesota, though it seems to be localized in the Mpls./St.Paul area), so I can't help you there -- but I do have a question that perhaps you, or someone else here can answer.
I have always wondered what the *max* membership of twi has been, in it's peak years. I have heard numbers ranging from 85,000, to over 100,000 folks. And then I have heard less than that. Any input on this??
I know lots of folks left (and I was one of them), but I've always been curious as to how many *standing believers* were there in the *glory years*, and how many were at one time counted as being *in the way*.
Maybe this is another thread entirely, but just thought I would toss it out here, in hopes of finding someone who might give a definative answer.
Ah, and I wonder if they still have to report two to three times a week to a plastic fellowship and tell all their miracles (not) (like starving to death & bingo there was a reataurant).
Oh and having to keep track of all the people you HAD to witness to and give an account out loud at the fellowship and how the people responded and blah, blah, blah. It was so funny that we got to the point that if we spoke the word to our baby, we witnessed. Then they would say on the next SNS tape that over 50,000 people got witnessed to. Ha if they only knew the truth that the true believers spoke the Word when God inspired them and not their "twiglet" leader. What crap. We used to laugh like hell during the week when the believers in our area really fellowshipped together without our leader**** and laughed like hell about the stories we told. Actually most were true but we witnessed to each other. Duh! God must have been dancing & Jesus along side Him. Imagine all that legalism that we almost fell for.
I have heard up to as much as 100,000 in the peak years befor 'POP', but with the way TWIt figures go, that could have been worldwide or possibly those who had taken the complete PFAL class.
If memory serves me wasn't it 1979 or 1980 they had at least 13,000 or 14,000 people at the ROCK for the entire week??? That was supposidly the amount of tickets sold, wheather or not they actually came to the 'Rock' or just spent a day or 2.
But I would guess at least 50,000 to 60,000 standing belivers at the end of the 1970's to mid 80's.
I have heard up to as much as 100,000 in the peak years before 'POP', but with the way TWIt figures go, that could have been worldwide or possibly those who had taken the complete PFAL class.
Danteh -- I hear that. And yes -- the *glory years* I mentioned were those before POP showed up, and the S*** hit the fan.
You make a good point -- they coulda been counting all that had taken the class, or even included all world-wide *affiliates* as well.
Strength in numbers -- or something like that, eh?
Rozilla and co. will keep the ship floating, no matter how small the numbers get. In order for them to keep their "non-profit organization lifestyle" going, they must at least give the appearances of being legit...As long as they keep an "open" sign on the front door and go through the motions, they will continue to meet their legal requirments for their money making charade. At this point I'm sure they all realize that twi is a failed project with no hope for recovery...but they must pretend in order to keep getting their sizeable paychecks.
We used to have phone hook-ups at 3 different homes because there wasn't anywhere big enough to hold everyone (not that there were that many of us). One home would call in to hq and get hooked up, then call home #2 who would then call home #3 so that all 3 locations could be on the same line to hq. The sound quality absolutely suck*d! I would leave with either a headache from all the crackling and feedback or from straining to hear what was being said. There were probably 12-18 people at each location. So, at the MOST, 60 per phone hook up, but hardly ever really that many.
They took ABS and then after the hook-up would ask for money to help pay the phone bill. I'm sure they collected WAY more money than the phone call cost, but doubt if the homeowners got any of that. And why didn't TWI pay for the paltry phone call if they wanted everyone "tapped in" so badly?
I have it on very good authority that a mere 1,600 attended the AC Special in November and that the largest limb is about 400 people and that's more than one state. I can't give you any more specifics than that.
Excellent breakdown Wordwolf. Honestly I agree with your numbers. Seems about right to me.
Phone hookup number may have been accurate because if I recall, when the coordinator dials in he has to give the number in attendance. So the 4000 may be accurate but it could very well include a 6 year old child or somebodys grandma.
But for the numbers of real supporting and contributing disciples, I agree with Wordwolf's assesment:
"I figure the real number of members is somewhere between 1500 and 2000,"
Ooops..... make that 4 less because our Corps friend GB and their whole family left just last month and went right to CFF. :D-->
I asked a First Corps guy who was on staff for many years about TWI's numbers. Like how many people were really involved at the peak of TWI's growth.
He said to take the largest attendance at the ROA and double it - figuring that about half the people on the field got there. I believe he said the largest ROA was either in '83 or '84 (I don't remember which one he said), and that there were about 22k during the week, and 24k who came for the weekend. Double it and we have between 44 and 48 thousand active participants - which he defined as those who took more than just PFAL and ABS'd regularly.
The 100,000 figure comes from a statement that VPW made when he said "there are more than 100,000 people in the 'Book of Life'." That was big list of everyone who ever took PFAL. I know we had plenty of folks in this area who took the class and never did anything with TWI again.
The other statistic I remember hearing is something like "only 25% of people who take PFAL go on to take the Intermediate class." And that the believer's job was to undershepard people through the Advanced Class to make sure they stood with TWI.
At my first ROA in '72 there were about 2500 people in attendance. In '73 there were about 5000. TWI was growing exponentially for a few years - until it crashed and burned starting in 1986. They now have about the same amount of devotees that they had 33 years ago. It amazes me how they can survive - and pitiful if you think about it.
I asked a First Corps guy who was on staff for many years about TWI's numbers. Like how many people were really involved at the peak of TWI's growth.
He said to take the largest attendance at the ROA and double it - figuring that about half the people on the field got there. I believe he said the largest ROA was either in '83 or '84 (I don't remember which one he said), and that there were about 22k during the week, and 24k who came for the weekend. Double it and we have between 44 and 48 thousand active participants - which he defined as those who took more than just PFAL and ABS'd regularly.
The 100,000 figure comes from a statement that VPW made when he said "there are more than 100,000 people in the 'Book of Life'." That was big list of everyone who ever took PFAL. I know we had plenty of folks in this area who took the class and never did anything with TWI again.
The other statistic I remember hearing is something like "only 25% of people who take PFAL go on to take the Intermediate class." And that the believer's job was to undershepard people through the Advanced Class to make sure they stood with TWI.
At my first ROA in '72 there were about 2500 people in attendance. In '73 there were about 5000. TWI was growing exponentially for a few years - until it crashed and burned starting in 1986. They now have about the same amount of devotees that they had 33 years ago. It amazes me how they can survive - and pitiful if you think about it.
Hmm interesting stats about going to ROA. I thought more would have stayed home but the person you talked to probably knew.
The number increase between 72 and 73 is staggering.
Yeah they seem to have the numbers that they had 33 years ago but it wont grow like it did 33 years ago. twi now has a past that people can find out about real easy I hope it keeps dwindling. Makes you wonder who will be the Grease Spot by Midnight? (Evil laugh) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
While it's true that it's easy to check out TWI on the internet, with all the innies who are using the computer and the internet, TWI has always come out with that the bad reports being posted are from 'Copped out' ex-way people or organizations that are 'Debbilish' groups that are trying to close them down. That's why TWI doesn't want the dwindling membership to go to any website except the ones they (TWI) dictate.
The innies that come to GSC can read true, honest stories of people who have had anywhere from bad situations to downright nightmares of what the leadership has done.
While it's true that it's easy to check out TWI on the internet, with all the innies who are using the computer and the internet, TWI has always come out with that the bad reports being posted are from 'Copped out' ex-way people or organizations that are 'Debbilish' groups that are trying to close them down. That's why TWI doesn't want the dwindling membership to go to any website except the ones they (TWI) dictate.
The innies that come to GSC can read true, honest stories of people who have had anywhere from bad situations to downright nightmares of what the leadership has done.
danteh1, I agree with what you said above. I think what I was trying to express.
Those thinking about going into twi have such a broad way of checking them out now, not so many years ago, it was almost just a leap of what you thought was right. That is why I said the numbers wont jump the way they did 33 years ago.
To many people have their arses in a corner and twi can't do a rope a dope out of this one. They know it too.
While it's true that it's easy to check out TWI on the internet, with all the innies who are using the computer and the internet, TWI has always come out with that the bad reports being posted are from 'Copped out' ex-way people or organizations that are 'Debbilish' groups that are trying to close them down. That's why TWI doesn't want the dwindling membership to go to any website except the ones they (TWI) dictate.
The innies that come to GSC can read true, honest stories of people who have had anywhere from bad situations to downright nightmares of what the leadership has done.
danteh1, I agree with what you said above. I think what I was trying to express.
Those thinking about going into twi have such a broad way of checking them out now, not so many years ago, it was almost just a leap of what you thought was right. That is why I said the numbers wont jump the way they did 33 years ago.
To many people have their (twi) arses in a corner and twi can't do a rope a dope out of this one. They know it too.
Ya gotta figure too, that the folks in now are all middle aged, don`t have very much to show for their lives......everything they own is second hand ...most of em rent....
quite different then the exhuberant idealistic teens that were responsible for the exponential growth in the 70s..
also figure that twi ran off anyone who had any talent or ability, any real spiritually sharp people whilst doing their household cleansing....
Twi is dead in the water....there is no comparison of the 2500 folks that remain and those that are responsible for the ministry grow in the 70s.....shoot even the doctrine they try to offer doesn`t resemble what was touted in the 70s.
It is so sad that what we invested our hearts and lives in was not a legitimate christian organisation....not serving God as we believed.....much good could have been accomplished ....but alas, twi is just one more imploding little cult....sigh
There are only 47 people left in The Way. The illusion that there are more is bolstered by cardboard cutouts, region coordinators maintaining multiple homes in several regions, post office boxes, tapes of people clapping and on-staff ventriloquists.
ROFLMAO!! :D--> You sure paint quite the picture, Oak. :D-->
They can't possibly grow:
- They have nothing "new" even the "new" classes are rehashed versions of the previous plagarized and b.s. classes.
- The best they could come up with regarding new books is "The Prevailing Version" of the old books.
- They have no appeal whatsoever to the younger generation.
- Most churches now teach the same things TWI teaches that are correct and the churches teach it better, with more resources, better schedules and they go beyond TWI. That, and they....gasp.....allow questions.
- Most churches have enough members so that the same people aren't always having to do the work.
- Most churches have a building so you don't have to waste time scrounging around for some halfway decent free place to have a meeting.
- Most churches don't have websites warning people to stay away from them. :)-->
I wonder if they will sell Gunnison or try to convince people to move up there to help take care of it as the number of people willing to go into the corps continues to decline. How many people does it take to keep up the place? How much does it cost to keep it running?
Will they sell off more of HQ? They already have a staggering staff to "believer" ratio. Will they "strongly suggest" that people start closing in the ranks and move to the "root" locations?
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Oakspear
Weren't the last spate of calculations based on active adult wayfers in the U.S. ?
Maybe the 5000 figure includes other countries and children.
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dmiller
John -- I haven't a clue as to how many are still involved these days (I just found out recently that there is an active *limb* here in Minnesota, though it seems to be localized in the Mpls./St.Paul area), so I can't help you there -- but I do have a question that perhaps you, or someone else here can answer.
I have always wondered what the *max* membership of twi has been, in it's peak years. I have heard numbers ranging from 85,000, to over 100,000 folks. And then I have heard less than that. Any input on this??
I know lots of folks left (and I was one of them), but I've always been curious as to how many *standing believers* were there in the *glory years*, and how many were at one time counted as being *in the way*.
Maybe this is another thread entirely, but just thought I would toss it out here, in hopes of finding someone who might give a definative answer.
David
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igotout
Well the 5,000 is reduced to 3,000 mostly because of kids.
Ok be conservative and say there are 4000 active (unlikely).
Still it is low, low, low compared to its realistic peak of 50,000 in the early 80's before VPW died.
Yes, there were as many as 100,000 who took pfal. But a pretty reliable source has stated that there were about 50,000 really involved at its peak.
Now there are what..... 3, 4 thousand?
And shrinking.
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LornaDoone
Ah, and I wonder if they still have to report two to three times a week to a plastic fellowship and tell all their miracles (not) (like starving to death & bingo there was a reataurant).
Oh and having to keep track of all the people you HAD to witness to and give an account out loud at the fellowship and how the people responded and blah, blah, blah. It was so funny that we got to the point that if we spoke the word to our baby, we witnessed. Then they would say on the next SNS tape that over 50,000 people got witnessed to. Ha if they only knew the truth that the true believers spoke the Word when God inspired them and not their "twiglet" leader. What crap. We used to laugh like hell during the week when the believers in our area really fellowshipped together without our leader**** and laughed like hell about the stories we told. Actually most were true but we witnessed to each other. Duh! God must have been dancing & Jesus along side Him. Imagine all that legalism that we almost fell for.
Boy did we have fun when that rule came out.
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danteh1
I have heard up to as much as 100,000 in the peak years befor 'POP', but with the way TWIt figures go, that could have been worldwide or possibly those who had taken the complete PFAL class.
If memory serves me wasn't it 1979 or 1980 they had at least 13,000 or 14,000 people at the ROCK for the entire week??? That was supposidly the amount of tickets sold, wheather or not they actually came to the 'Rock' or just spent a day or 2.
But I would guess at least 50,000 to 60,000 standing belivers at the end of the 1970's to mid 80's.
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dmiller
Danteh -- I hear that. And yes -- the *glory years* I mentioned were those before POP showed up, and the S*** hit the fan.
You make a good point -- they coulda been counting all that had taken the class, or even included all world-wide *affiliates* as well.
Strength in numbers -- or something like that, eh?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Rozilla and co. will keep the ship floating, no matter how small the numbers get. In order for them to keep their "non-profit organization lifestyle" going, they must at least give the appearances of being legit...As long as they keep an "open" sign on the front door and go through the motions, they will continue to meet their legal requirments for their money making charade. At this point I'm sure they all realize that twi is a failed project with no hope for recovery...but they must pretend in order to keep getting their sizeable paychecks.
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Rejoice
Hmm.....in my area there are three churches that I know of that each have a weekly attendance of about 7,000.
TWI has about 3,000-4,000 world wide?????????????
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Zshot
If TWI ever brought all their followers to one place at one time...
Don't drink the kool-aid!!!
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WordWolf
I'd say, currently, LESS than 3000.
When we discussed it before, the "5000" figure was derived as the maximum
number of people that they could count-thus including children-at the time
they derived the figure.
That was several years ago by now.
twi has been experiencing "negative population growth" since 1989 if not
sooner. Let me break it down for the average schmoe.
Are new people joining twi?
I suppose, somewhere, someone is joining now.
That's true of almost every organization active now.
Are old people leaving twi?
Yes.
That's true of almost every organization active now.
So, population is measured by 2 things: the actual number of people
involved, and "population growth", which is a measure of how the overal
number of people is moving.
If the number of people leaving in any month is the same as the number
of people joining, then they experience "zero population growth" as the
number of members remains about the same over time.
If the number of people leaving is LESS than the number of people joining,
then they experience "population growth" or "positive population growth"
as the number of members increases. They can lose a lot of people, but
the number of people joining more than makes up for it.
If the number of people leaving is MORE than the number of people joining,
then they experience "negative population growth" or "population shrinkage",
as the number of members decreases. They can bring in a lot of people,
but the number of people leaving more than makes up for it.
twi has been referred to as "hemorrhaging members" for about a decade-
and that was after periods where 80% of the membership walked.
So, before several years of negative population growth,
they had 5000, including children.
We're not counting children, so figure 3000 (members are older, so they're
more likely to be settled down with kids) plus kids at the time the 5000
number was derived.
I figure the real number of members is somewhere between 1500 and 2000,
just as a "guesstimate", at present.
=======
Let's look at their notice, in light of the utterly deceptive methods they
use to reinterpret the facts (lie thru their teeth):
"over 1000 people attended"
That means "1001 people attended",
and attendees include:
staff forced to attend
twi VIPs who attend and are catered to
loyal members convinced to visit for the weekend from wherever
local members browbeaten into attending (250 mile radius DOUBLED for the
special occassion)
total strangers begged to attend by the local members browbeaten (family and
friends to the local members, but strangers to twi)
children of all of the same
All of that should easily exceed 2500 if twi was as big as it claims.
"nearly 4000 more joined in on phone lines".
There is no way to determine this accurately,
therefore, this is a complete fiction invented so they can pretend they
haven't lost thousands of people over the past few years from when they
claimed 5000 total.
This number's justification would probably sound something like this:
"Well,
there were 100 phone lines in use.
We were told people were gathering for local meetings of 40 to listen in.
So, 100 times 40 equals 4000."
Does anyone who worked A/V know how many phone lines twi has?
If we knew that, we could work out a maximum/minimum for people hooked in,
if ALL lines are in use.
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WordWolf
Oh,
and count on "negative population growth" as long as places like the GSC
exist.
:D-->
That alone makes it all worthwhile.
If nothing else, twi is disintegrating slowly under attrition since almost
nobody is joining, and visitors don't STAY.
Since twi continues to lose people due to: death, teens leaving as they are
able to, and people sick and tired of being sick and tired
(GSC crew, take a bow again!
)
it's just a matter of time, and how many lives of those remaining "in"
they can ruin to maintain their cushy jobs at the top.
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Belle
Regarding phone lines and hook-ups....
We used to have phone hook-ups at 3 different homes because there wasn't anywhere big enough to hold everyone (not that there were that many of us). One home would call in to hq and get hooked up, then call home #2 who would then call home #3 so that all 3 locations could be on the same line to hq. The sound quality absolutely suck*d! I would leave with either a headache from all the crackling and feedback or from straining to hear what was being said. There were probably 12-18 people at each location. So, at the MOST, 60 per phone hook up, but hardly ever really that many.
They took ABS and then after the hook-up would ask for money to help pay the phone bill. I'm sure they collected WAY more money than the phone call cost, but doubt if the homeowners got any of that. And why didn't TWI pay for the paltry phone call if they wanted everyone "tapped in" so badly?
I have it on very good authority that a mere 1,600 attended the AC Special in November and that the largest limb is about 400 people and that's more than one state. I can't give you any more specifics than that.
How many limbs are there?
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Ham
Maybe if they advertised "free beer", that may improve the attendance.
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igotout
Excellent breakdown Wordwolf. Honestly I agree with your numbers. Seems about right to me.
Phone hookup number may have been accurate because if I recall, when the coordinator dials in he has to give the number in attendance. So the 4000 may be accurate but it could very well include a 6 year old child or somebodys grandma.
But for the numbers of real supporting and contributing disciples, I agree with Wordwolf's assesment:
"I figure the real number of members is somewhere between 1500 and 2000,"
Ooops..... make that 4 less because our Corps friend GB and their whole family left just last month and went right to CFF.
:D-->
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Hope R.
I asked a First Corps guy who was on staff for many years about TWI's numbers. Like how many people were really involved at the peak of TWI's growth.
He said to take the largest attendance at the ROA and double it - figuring that about half the people on the field got there. I believe he said the largest ROA was either in '83 or '84 (I don't remember which one he said), and that there were about 22k during the week, and 24k who came for the weekend. Double it and we have between 44 and 48 thousand active participants - which he defined as those who took more than just PFAL and ABS'd regularly.
The 100,000 figure comes from a statement that VPW made when he said "there are more than 100,000 people in the 'Book of Life'." That was big list of everyone who ever took PFAL. I know we had plenty of folks in this area who took the class and never did anything with TWI again.
The other statistic I remember hearing is something like "only 25% of people who take PFAL go on to take the Intermediate class." And that the believer's job was to undershepard people through the Advanced Class to make sure they stood with TWI.
At my first ROA in '72 there were about 2500 people in attendance. In '73 there were about 5000. TWI was growing exponentially for a few years - until it crashed and burned starting in 1986. They now have about the same amount of devotees that they had 33 years ago. It amazes me how they can survive - and pitiful if you think about it.
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justloafing
Hmm interesting stats about going to ROA. I thought more would have stayed home but the person you talked to probably knew.
The number increase between 72 and 73 is staggering.
Yeah they seem to have the numbers that they had 33 years ago but it wont grow like it did 33 years ago. twi now has a past that people can find out about real easy I hope it keeps dwindling. Makes you wonder who will be the Grease Spot by Midnight? (Evil laugh) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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danteh1
Justloafing
While it's true that it's easy to check out TWI on the internet, with all the innies who are using the computer and the internet, TWI has always come out with that the bad reports being posted are from 'Copped out' ex-way people or organizations that are 'Debbilish' groups that are trying to close them down. That's why TWI doesn't want the dwindling membership to go to any website except the ones they (TWI) dictate.
The innies that come to GSC can read true, honest stories of people who have had anywhere from bad situations to downright nightmares of what the leadership has done.
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justloafing
danteh1, I agree with what you said above. I think what I was trying to express.
Those thinking about going into twi have such a broad way of checking them out now, not so many years ago, it was almost just a leap of what you thought was right. That is why I said the numbers wont jump the way they did 33 years ago.
To many people have their arses in a corner and twi can't do a rope a dope out of this one. They know it too.
HI twi
-->
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justloafing
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rascal
Ya gotta figure too, that the folks in now are all middle aged, don`t have very much to show for their lives......everything they own is second hand ...most of em rent....
quite different then the exhuberant idealistic teens that were responsible for the exponential growth in the 70s..
also figure that twi ran off anyone who had any talent or ability, any real spiritually sharp people whilst doing their household cleansing....
Twi is dead in the water....there is no comparison of the 2500 folks that remain and those that are responsible for the ministry grow in the 70s.....shoot even the doctrine they try to offer doesn`t resemble what was touted in the 70s.
It is so sad that what we invested our hearts and lives in was not a legitimate christian organisation....not serving God as we believed.....much good could have been accomplished ....but alas, twi is just one more imploding little cult....sigh
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Ham
Makes me feel a little sorry for the few "faithful" left though- they must have the strength of Atlas to keep that stinkhole running.
Seems as "membership" dwindles, more and more demand would be placed on those who stay. Can't last very long you'd think.
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Oakspear
There are only 47 people left in The Way. The illusion that there are more is bolstered by cardboard cutouts, region coordinators maintaining multiple homes in several regions, post office boxes, tapes of people clapping and on-staff ventriloquists.
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Belle
ROFLMAO!!
:D--> You sure paint quite the picture, Oak. 
:D-->
They can't possibly grow:
- They have nothing "new" even the "new" classes are rehashed versions of the previous plagarized and b.s. classes.
- The best they could come up with regarding new books is "The Prevailing Version" of the old books.
- They have no appeal whatsoever to the younger generation.
- Most churches now teach the same things TWI teaches that are correct and the churches teach it better, with more resources, better schedules and they go beyond TWI. That, and they....gasp.....allow questions.
- Most churches have enough members so that the same people aren't always having to do the work.
- Most churches have a building so you don't have to waste time scrounging around for some halfway decent free place to have a meeting.
- Most churches don't have websites warning people to stay away from them.
:)-->
I wonder if they will sell Gunnison or try to convince people to move up there to help take care of it as the number of people willing to go into the corps continues to decline. How many people does it take to keep up the place? How much does it cost to keep it running?
Will they sell off more of HQ? They already have a staggering staff to "believer" ratio. Will they "strongly suggest" that people start closing in the ranks and move to the "root" locations?
In 10 years where will they be?
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Belle
How many Regions are there?
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