I have sent this review along to about three dozen people. I can't even say it with a straight face.
"A craptacular crapfest of crappy crap!"
Let's see them put THAT on a movie poster.
Heh...well, I have to confess that it wasn't exactly that bad, but there were quite a few plot holes that don't fit in with the first one at all. One thing I have to mention though, is that they handled changing the actress for the Oracle very well.
I would say more but I don't know of a good way to hide spoilers, because the end was extremely dissapointing and made no sense. For those that have seen the movie and wonder what I am talking about, consider what happened at the end, and also consider the reason that people were trapped by the machines in the first place. The resolution made absolutely no sense.
Also, I have to mention the special effects, because while they were good, the big Zion fight scene was a little too drab. I understand though, there's only so much you can do when you have grey metal robots fighting people in grey metal robot suits in a grey metal environment. Other than the occasional pictures of bullets, you could watch that scene in black and white and lose nothing.
I'll let others watch the movie and comment here before I mention what I really think, which requires spoilers.
I never looked at it as a trilogy. I always felt that the first one stood on it's own and that Reloaded and Revolutions were the first and second half of a follow-up (I am sure I have lost everyone by now)
Reloaded was heavy on philosophy. The fight scenes were about twice as long as they should have been. Not a very good follow-up to the original.
Revolutions is not a very good part two to Reloaded. It did have better fight/battle scenes, more engaging. It lacked an original plot, I feel. I was enjoying the first hour or so, but the end didn't wrap it up in a meaningful way.
I think that they took the GREAT fight scenes from the original movie and left behind the plot.
You guys are nuts. Revolutions kicked the living snot out of Reloaded. I'm just glad they got all that (ok, well most all) interminable philosophy out of the way in #2. Yes, they could have fleshed out a bit more of the Smith/Machine plot thread, but still...this was an action movie for cryin' out loud!
OK Zixar, I'll tell you the biggest problem I have with what happened at the end.
These are spoilers, so if someone else doesn't want to know them then skip the area that I am putting in quotes.
quote:
1) At the end, the machines stop their war with humanity (which the humans started according to the Animatrix stuff.) In the original Matrix film, the machines created the Matrix as a way of harnessing the human brain as a battery, because there was no other good power source left on Earth. Since the architect said that he would free all of the other humans, what powers the machines? They effectively committed suicide because Neo did something nice in killing Agent Smith.
Second, Trinity's death was pretty pointless. I can understand how it was useful to the plot, but they could have had her die fighting rather than simply crashing. She then gave a long speech (at least to me) that reminded me of the old Bugs Bunny death scenes.
In the 2nd Matrix movie, they said that there was enough machines to kill every man, woman, and child heading down towards Zion. This was a huge problem and the ship on the CGI Animatrix intro had to go warn Zion. If the ship of the captain I forgot the name of could simply use their EMP to destroy all of those, why didn't the ship in the Animatrix do that and shut them down first?
Speaking of fighting, what happened to nukes and other bombs? They have electric weapons, which I can understand for an advanced civilization, but they also use what appear to be regular bullets too. I would think that they would be able to fight the machines in some other method than bullets.
Also related to the power source issues, Neo and Trinity broke through the cloud cover. There are two potential sources of power I can see from there. The first is the large amount of electricity from the permanent thunderstorms. Couldn't the machines have found a way to use that energy? If not, why not just build a mountain taller than the clouds and harness solar power that way?
Also, what was with a fiery cross coming out of Neo at the end? I know that it was the energy from the machines helping him, but it seems odd to say that Neo is a reincarnation of Jesus or whatnot.
Anyway, I think the reason I didn't like how this is, and thought it felt contrived, is because they had to explain everything. In The Matrix, there was a lot of stuff that didn't have answers that was just cool and you didn't care about most of the stuff.
Also, I think the action in this latest movie wasn't all that great when compared to the first two. This movie was the end, but they didn't have a big cool fight scene like the other Matrix films.
quote:Since the architect said that he would free all of the other humans, what powers the machines?
That's NOT what he said, go back and watch it again.
quote:Second, Trinity's death was pretty pointless.
No, that's just how things work in Japanese anime, which the Wachowskis were quite influenced by.
As for the other stuff,
--EMP weapons have a definite range. The Osiris couldn't have just wasted them all with one shot. They also have a definite fratricide effect--that's why Bane screwed them all when he EMPd the Zion fleet.
--The machines would have strip mined all useful nuclear materials before going to the human battery bank, so no H-bombs.
--You can't get any sort of useful energy from lightning. It's too sporadic.
--Neo has been the Messiah in the whole series, so the ending was completely in character for him.
Don't like it? Write a better one! Nanowrimo is underway, after all...
Anyone else see the new posters for next summer's Alien vs. Predator?
Don't like it? Write a better one! Nanowrimo is underway, after all...
Anyone else see the new posters for next summer's _Alien vs. Predator?_
I was participating in NaNoWriMo, but I will be in transit to a new job this weekend and other things going on mean that I had to drop out for now.
As far as what the architect said, I'll have to ask my wife because that's what I thought he said. The thing is, either everyone is free, or people are still slaves. I don't see how the issue could have really been resolved otherwise.
As far as alien vs. predator goes, I know it would be a dumb movie, but I'd still really like to see it. I like B movies when I expect them to be so.
What the Architect said was: (swipe your mouse over to see)
Okay, it was that the Oracle SAID he said it, but what she relayed to Seraph was that the Architect agreed to release any human who WANTED to get out of the Matrix. BIG difference.
It's a choice, you see... :)--> Would you really want to eat that watery oatmeal crap from Matrix I in run-down Zion when you could have that steak Cypher was chowing down on when he met with Smith in the Matrix?
I saw the movie last night. I agree that Trinity's death was pointless even if the movie was influenced by Japanese anime. To appeal to all members of the audience (which includes women like me ;)-->), they could have had her live. Since there is a love interest in this movie, chickifying it would be desirable (I hear the men groaning now.....:)-->). It would have been better to show that love conquers all, even machines and programs. The talking she did in the end scene of her death was wayyyyyy too long.
Also, the fight scene between Neo and Agent Smith at the end was kinda boring. Some of the effects were good, but my opinion is they overkilled the fight scenes in the air. All of the flying in the air just didn't seem as exciting; it was too superman-ish. I really liked the first movie when Trinity and Neo went in with their leather jackets and big guns. It had more impact. The one thing that seemed kinda weird to me is when Agent Smith puts his fist in Neo and Neo becomes Agent Smith. Is it safe to assume that Neo was stronger than Agent Smith's program/virus??? to be overtaken by it; therefore allowing him to overcome Agent Smith? I didn''t completely understand that one.
The whole thing with the peace making deal between Neo and the machines was kind of ridiculous. It's not a definite thing. They will get rid of Agent Smith, who is a threat to both worlds, but it doesn't deal with the whole issue between the machines and humans that was presented in the first movie.
Also, at the end when the Oracle was having a conversation with the white haired man, was that man the architect? Could someone please explaine that whole conversation to me?? Thanks!
quote:I agree that Trinity's death was pointless even if the movie was influenced by Japanese anime.
What, you've never seen the long, drawn-out, flashback-filled pontificating death speeches in Mobile Suit Gundam? Trin was positively chatty compared to some of those... :D--> No, she had to die so that Neo would have nothing left to live for but ending his mission. If he had held back, mankind would have lost.
Yes, the white-haired man was the Architect from Reloaded. Remember also that Smith had assimilated the Oracle before assimilating Neo. I just assumed that together the two rewrote Smith's program and killed him.
And I will agree with you on the Neo/Smith fight. They fly at each other really fast, hit so hard there's a big CGI shockwave, and...
...nothing really happens. So, they kung-fu for a while, then back off, fly at each other really fast, hit so hard there's a BIGGER CGI shockwave, and...
When Neo was questioning the Oracle about the Architect, she said the Architect didn't know from one moment to the next. Yet the Architect had many things to say to Neo in Reloaded which were beneficial to him. In the last scene where the Oracle and Architect were conversing, she asked him about an emotion (forget which one sorry -->), he refused to acknowledge he knew anything about emotions. What did this mean? Is he a program, or is he a machine? I still don't know his function in all of the confusion.
BTW, I NEVER talk during movies. I always ask questions later.
During the attack of the machines on the dock, did anyone else wonder why there were only two women who had the fire power to put down the big drilling machines? It seems with as many people they had, there should have been more people with the same kind of fire power those two women had. Obviously there was less work involved than those who rode in their own machine shooting bullets.
Ah, I understand now. That makes better sense and makes it different. I do still wonder about the details of how it would work, but that's just the overly curious nature I have kicking in.
What, you've never seen the long, drawn-out, flashback-filled pontificating death speeches in _Mobile Suit Gundam?_
Personally I prefer the death scenes on Cowboy Bebop. The end of the last episode, Spike's death speech is simply pointing his finger at all of the mafia guys like it's a gun and saying, "bang" before he collapses.
quote:Originally posted by Zixar:
Yes, the white-haired man was the Architect from Reloaded. Remember also that Smith had assimilated the Oracle before assimilating Neo.
I don't know if you noticed, but Smith had also taken on characteristics of the Oracle in the last scene. It confused him but he had "prophesy" of some sort relating to what would happen that was very much like the Oracle and confused him when he said it.
Also, I think what happened in the end was hinted at. Neo and Smith were like the yin and yang of each other, so when Smith tried to absorb Neo, Neo in turn absorbed the Smith that was in him and somehow caused a chain reaction destroying both.
Is he a program, or is he a machine? I still don't know his function in all of the confusion.
He was a sentient computer program, which designed the Matrix (although I think only in part, because the Oracle had a big part in it too. I forgot what was mentioned at the end of the 2nd movie.)
I enjoyed Matrix I, once I willingly suspended disbelief regarding the "humans as a power source" plot device, it was actually quite enjoyable and pretty much internally consistant. It is a big hole to ignore though, it requires one to assume that nuclear, solar and fossil fuel power are no longer available. The machines seem able to build and drill, so why not? They never really address reproduction either. When people meet, marry and reproduce in the matrix, do the machines extract genetic material from each to start a new human?
Matrix II was so confusing that I left the theater twice not sure what it was all about. The addition of apparently benevolent programs like The Oracle and The Keymaker, and independent programs like the Merovingian and his spook and vampire cronies, made things a bit interesting, but the whole conversation at the end of Reloaded with the Architect had me saying "huh?".
In Matrix III at least we found out who Bane was. Although I must have missed any explanation as to how the Smith program (was he actually a virus?) "possessed" Bane. I also must have missed any explanation as to how Neo could stop the sentinels and "see" after being blinded. Superhuman feats made sense in the matrix, since they were, after all, just the manipulation of perceptions, but what explained the suspension of the laws of physics in the "real" world. At the end of Matrix II I thought maybe that they were actually still in the matrix, fooled into thinking they were in the real world.
A third thing I must have slept through was any mention of a "machine city" prior to Neo's announcing that he was going there. What was that face formed from the swarming sentinels? Was that the Architect?
Some things that I did like:
The scene where the sentinels are flying in formation through the breaches in Zions roof; the fire and gloomy lighting was evocative of demons swarming through hell.
The whole concept of Smith taking over the matrix one being at a time, absorbing both programs and people.
The tableau just before the final fight where Neo and Smith approach each other in the pouring rain.
It was interesting how the only way to defeat the machines was to unite against a common enemy; but the machines still retain the upper hand.
When Neo was blinded, yet could still "see", was I the only one who remembered Herbert's Dune Messiah?
Muad'Dib!!!!!
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
A third thing I must have slept through was any mention of a "machine city" prior to Neo's announcing that he was going there. What was that face formed from the swarming sentinels? Was that the Architect?
If you've not watched "The Animatrix" I would suggest doing so. Although it's mostly a tangent (except the flight of the Osirus which was a teaser out in theaters before the 2nd Matrix) there were a few explanations, such as the machine city. There were two parts that discussed the rise of the machines. Basically, humans had built robots and machines, and eventually a machine became intelligent enough that it killed a human (or maybe two, I forgot) in self-defense because they were going to shut it off. That was an event that started a robot holocaust, and the machines that survived escaped to the middle east and created a machine city. They built up their own society and advanced much further than when they were under the control of humans, and eventually went to mankind to try to make peace. This failed, and eventually the war started and the machines won. Mankind had set off bombs in the sky in order to kill the solar power that the robots used, which is what lead to the machines needing to use humans as a power source, as well as to deal with the problem of humans.
It's been a while since I've watched it, so I'd suggest you watch it for yourself and see what's there.
If you recall in Matrix 2, there was a scene where two people are in a room waiting for the phone call to exit the Matrix. One tells the other to go first because of the vital info he's carrying. Phone rings, one guy leaves. Just then, Agent Smith comes in and does his hand-in-the-gut/oilslick takeover for the first time on the other one. As soon as he transforms into the second Smith, the phone rings again and new Smith picks it up, transferring himself into the second guy's body.
...Also, I think the action in this latest movie wasn't all that great when compared to the first two. This movie was the end, but they didn't have a big cool fight scene like the other Matrix films.
Didn't have a big cool fight scene??? Come now, Neo and Smith had a humdinger of a knock down drag-out. Not only dig they knock each other down,they knocked down buildings and made craters in the process. Personally, I thought this was one of the best parts of the movie. I saw it as the modern cinematic version of something akin to the Superman Vs. Doomsday battle in the Death of Superman comic book. Yes I said comic book. I used to read and collect comics and I've always thought of the Matrix as a cinematic adaptation of a comic book. (Hey Zix, you're a comic book fan,aren't ya? Isn't there a Matrix comic book?) The way Neo flies around the Matrix is evocative of Superman. In fact, I think there was a line in Reloaded about him doing his "Superman thing". But I digress. Suffice to say, that as a comic book fan, I thoroughly enjoyed the Neo-Smith fight scene. It's just the way It should have been portrayed.
What the Architect said was: (swipe your mouse over to see)
Nifty new trick there, Zix. The only thing I was confused about is the relationship between the Architect and "The Source". When Neo went to the Oracle, she said something about the One getting help from or going back to The Source. Since Neo has always been a Messianic character, I assume the Source is supposed to reperesent God.
Unfortunately, the role of The Architect seemed to fill that role in Reloaded; especially since he told Neo he had designed the Matrix as a human paradise, but humanity's inherent flaws ruined it. Very Genesis-like.
But in Revolutions, the Oracal speaks of the Architect being limited in understanding and insight and obviously his power is trumped by that of "The Source"; the machine face with whom Neo made the deal for the preservation of mankind and the freedom of those who wanted out of the Matrix. So it seems there are two Godlike beings with whom Neo deals, one superior to the other.
This may be a really long stretch, but it reminds me of Gnosticism. One of the more controversial tenets of Gnosticism is that the "God" of the Old Testament is actually Lucifer, and the Father of Jesus Christ, the Creator, is the true and Supreme God. The Gnostic version of Geneiss presents Lucifer as one who thinks he's the supreme being until confronted by the true God. I think perhaps the Architect is the Warchowski Bros. version of the Gnostic Lucifer (after all, he does have all of humanity in prison) and "The Source", who helps Neo free mankind is the True God. I think the fact that the only ones who get out of the Matrix are those who want out is also a nifty parallel to Christianity. "Whosoever will may come" or something like that.
By the way Wayfer Not, I think the reason Trin died was to fire Neo up and remind him he was fighting for the survival of mankind. Despite the fact that she didn't make it, it was still a triumph of love and faith, imho.
Well, I've yammered enough for now. What do you all think?
Peace
JerryB
[This message was edited by Jbarrax on November 08, 2003 at 22:56.]
This may be a really long stretch, but it reminds me of Gnosticism. One of the more controversial tenets of Gnosticism is that the "God" of the Old Testament is actually Lucifer, and the Father of Jesus Christ, the Creator, is the true and Supreme God. The Gnostic version of Geneiss presents Lucifer as one who thinks he's the supreme being until confronted by the true God. I think perhaps the Architect is the Warchowski Bros. version of the Gnostic Lucifer (after all, he does have all of humanity in prison) and "The Source", who helps Neo free mankind is the True God. I think the fact that the only ones who get out of the Matrix are those who want out is also a nifty parallel to Christianity. "Whosoever will may come" or something like that.
No, it's not a stretch at all. From the first movie, the ideas throughout (from Neo receiving his "call" to "waking up" from the worldly stupor and all its illusions; of humans being used by the machines for power, cf. the sparks of the divine being trapped and held captive in the world and its angelic overseers) are excellent illustrations of the themes in Christian-gnosticism. A decent introduction and review for gnostic themes can be found in "The Gnostic Religion" by Hans Jonas. He does an excellent job in providing an overview of the various ideas common amongst the gnostic movements.
I would be more tempted, perhaps, to associate the "Architect" with the creator "demiurge" or atificer - not necessarily Lucifer. Lucifer and the creator-demiurge of the OT were oft viewed in gnostic movements as two distinctive entities. Though I have encountered the opinion of at least one writer, Joseph Turmel, who proposed that if anyone identified the OT creator-god with Lucifer, it was the author of the gospel of John. But outside of that, many gnostics maintained the distinction between the two.
Until I see the third Matrix installment, just from what I've gathered here so far, I wonder if Agent Smith wouldn't fit the "Lucifer" role better, though this may be premature on my part.
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Raf
FYI,
I have sent this review along to about three dozen people. I can't even say it with a straight face.
"A craptacular crapfest of crappy crap!"
Let's see them put THAT on a movie poster.
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Mister P-Mosh
Heh...well, I have to confess that it wasn't exactly that bad, but there were quite a few plot holes that don't fit in with the first one at all. One thing I have to mention though, is that they handled changing the actress for the Oracle very well.
I would say more but I don't know of a good way to hide spoilers, because the end was extremely dissapointing and made no sense. For those that have seen the movie and wonder what I am talking about, consider what happened at the end, and also consider the reason that people were trapped by the machines in the first place. The resolution made absolutely no sense.
Also, I have to mention the special effects, because while they were good, the big Zion fight scene was a little too drab. I understand though, there's only so much you can do when you have grey metal robots fighting people in grey metal robot suits in a grey metal environment. Other than the occasional pictures of bullets, you could watch that scene in black and white and lose nothing.
I'll let others watch the movie and comment here before I mention what I really think, which requires spoilers.
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pawtucket
I saw it today also.
I never looked at it as a trilogy. I always felt that the first one stood on it's own and that Reloaded and Revolutions were the first and second half of a follow-up (I am sure I have lost everyone by now)
Reloaded was heavy on philosophy. The fight scenes were about twice as long as they should have been. Not a very good follow-up to the original.
Revolutions is not a very good part two to Reloaded. It did have better fight/battle scenes, more engaging. It lacked an original plot, I feel. I was enjoying the first hour or so, but the end didn't wrap it up in a meaningful way.
I think that they took the GREAT fight scenes from the original movie and left behind the plot.
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Zixar
You guys are nuts. Revolutions kicked the living snot out of Reloaded. I'm just glad they got all that (ok, well most all) interminable philosophy out of the way in #2. Yes, they could have fleshed out a bit more of the Smith/Machine plot thread, but still...this was an action movie for cryin' out loud!
Sew your balls back on and quit whining!
:D-->
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Mister P-Mosh
OK Zixar, I'll tell you the biggest problem I have with what happened at the end.
These are spoilers, so if someone else doesn't want to know them then skip the area that I am putting in quotes.
Anyway, I think the reason I didn't like how this is, and thought it felt contrived, is because they had to explain everything. In The Matrix, there was a lot of stuff that didn't have answers that was just cool and you didn't care about most of the stuff.
Also, I think the action in this latest movie wasn't all that great when compared to the first two. This movie was the end, but they didn't have a big cool fight scene like the other Matrix films.
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Mister P-Mosh
Also, another good article that discusses many of the flaws in the film can be found on CBS.
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Zixar
SPOILER ALERT!
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YOU WERE WARNED. SPOILERS FOLLOW.
That's NOT what he said, go back and watch it again. No, that's just how things work in Japanese anime, which the Wachowskis were quite influenced by.As for the other stuff,
--EMP weapons have a definite range. The Osiris couldn't have just wasted them all with one shot. They also have a definite fratricide effect--that's why Bane screwed them all when he EMPd the Zion fleet.
--The machines would have strip mined all useful nuclear materials before going to the human battery bank, so no H-bombs.
--You can't get any sort of useful energy from lightning. It's too sporadic.
--Neo has been the Messiah in the whole series, so the ending was completely in character for him.
Don't like it? Write a better one! Nanowrimo is underway, after all...
Anyone else see the new posters for next summer's Alien vs. Predator?
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Mister P-Mosh
I was participating in NaNoWriMo, but I will be in transit to a new job this weekend and other things going on mean that I had to drop out for now.
As far as what the architect said, I'll have to ask my wife because that's what I thought he said. The thing is, either everyone is free, or people are still slaves. I don't see how the issue could have really been resolved otherwise.
As far as alien vs. predator goes, I know it would be a dumb movie, but I'd still really like to see it. I like B movies when I expect them to be so.
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Zixar
What the Architect said was: (swipe your mouse over to see)
Okay, it was that the Oracle SAID he said it, but what she relayed to Seraph was that the Architect agreed to release any human who WANTED to get out of the Matrix. BIG difference.
It's a choice, you see...
:)--> Would you really want to eat that watery oatmeal crap from Matrix I in run-down Zion when you could have that steak Cypher was chowing down on when he met with Smith in the Matrix?
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Nottawayfer
I saw the movie last night. I agree that Trinity's death was pointless even if the movie was influenced by Japanese anime. To appeal to all members of the audience (which includes women like me
;)-->), they could have had her live. Since there is a love interest in this movie, chickifying it would be desirable (I hear the men groaning now.....
:)-->). It would have been better to show that love conquers all, even machines and programs. The talking she did in the end scene of her death was wayyyyyy too long.
Also, the fight scene between Neo and Agent Smith at the end was kinda boring. Some of the effects were good, but my opinion is they overkilled the fight scenes in the air. All of the flying in the air just didn't seem as exciting; it was too superman-ish. I really liked the first movie when Trinity and Neo went in with their leather jackets and big guns. It had more impact. The one thing that seemed kinda weird to me is when Agent Smith puts his fist in Neo and Neo becomes Agent Smith. Is it safe to assume that Neo was stronger than Agent Smith's program/virus??? to be overtaken by it; therefore allowing him to overcome Agent Smith? I didn''t completely understand that one.
The whole thing with the peace making deal between Neo and the machines was kind of ridiculous. It's not a definite thing. They will get rid of Agent Smith, who is a threat to both worlds, but it doesn't deal with the whole issue between the machines and humans that was presented in the first movie.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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Nottawayfer
Also, at the end when the Oracle was having a conversation with the white haired man, was that man the architect? Could someone please explaine that whole conversation to me?? Thanks!
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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Zixar
WayferNot:
What, you've never seen the long, drawn-out, flashback-filled pontificating death speeches in Mobile Suit Gundam? Trin was positively chatty compared to some of those...Yes, the white-haired man was the Architect from Reloaded. Remember also that Smith had assimilated the Oracle before assimilating Neo. I just assumed that together the two rewrote Smith's program and killed him.
And I will agree with you on the Neo/Smith fight. They fly at each other really fast, hit so hard there's a big CGI shockwave, and...
...nothing really happens. So, they kung-fu for a while, then back off, fly at each other really fast, hit so hard there's a BIGGER CGI shockwave, and...
...nothing really happens.
Repeat twice more. Come ON, Wachowskis!
There might just be a signature in here ==>
But not today...try again tomorrow!
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Nottawayfer
When Neo was questioning the Oracle about the Architect, she said the Architect didn't know from one moment to the next. Yet the Architect had many things to say to Neo in Reloaded which were beneficial to him. In the last scene where the Oracle and Architect were conversing, she asked him about an emotion (forget which one sorry
-->), he refused to acknowledge he knew anything about emotions. What did this mean? Is he a program, or is he a machine? I still don't know his function in all of the confusion.
BTW, I NEVER talk during movies. I always ask questions later.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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Nottawayfer
During the attack of the machines on the dock, did anyone else wonder why there were only two women who had the fire power to put down the big drilling machines? It seems with as many people they had, there should have been more people with the same kind of fire power those two women had. Obviously there was less work involved than those who rode in their own machine shooting bullets.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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Mister P-Mosh
Ah, I understand now. That makes better sense and makes it different. I do still wonder about the details of how it would work, but that's just the overly curious nature I have kicking in.
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Mister P-Mosh
Personally I prefer the death scenes on Cowboy Bebop. The end of the last episode, Spike's death speech is simply pointing his finger at all of the mafia guys like it's a gun and saying, "bang" before he collapses.
I don't know if you noticed, but Smith had also taken on characteristics of the Oracle in the last scene. It confused him but he had "prophesy" of some sort relating to what would happen that was very much like the Oracle and confused him when he said it.
Also, I think what happened in the end was hinted at. Neo and Smith were like the yin and yang of each other, so when Smith tried to absorb Neo, Neo in turn absorbed the Smith that was in him and somehow caused a chain reaction destroying both.
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Mister P-Mosh
He was a sentient computer program, which designed the Matrix (although I think only in part, because the Oracle had a big part in it too. I forgot what was mentioned at the end of the 2nd movie.)
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Oakspear
I enjoyed Matrix I, once I willingly suspended disbelief regarding the "humans as a power source" plot device, it was actually quite enjoyable and pretty much internally consistant. It is a big hole to ignore though, it requires one to assume that nuclear, solar and fossil fuel power are no longer available. The machines seem able to build and drill, so why not? They never really address reproduction either. When people meet, marry and reproduce in the matrix, do the machines extract genetic material from each to start a new human?
Matrix II was so confusing that I left the theater twice not sure what it was all about. The addition of apparently benevolent programs like The Oracle and The Keymaker, and independent programs like the Merovingian and his spook and vampire cronies, made things a bit interesting, but the whole conversation at the end of Reloaded with the Architect had me saying "huh?".
In Matrix III at least we found out who Bane was. Although I must have missed any explanation as to how the Smith program (was he actually a virus?) "possessed" Bane. I also must have missed any explanation as to how Neo could stop the sentinels and "see" after being blinded. Superhuman feats made sense in the matrix, since they were, after all, just the manipulation of perceptions, but what explained the suspension of the laws of physics in the "real" world. At the end of Matrix II I thought maybe that they were actually still in the matrix, fooled into thinking they were in the real world.
A third thing I must have slept through was any mention of a "machine city" prior to Neo's announcing that he was going there. What was that face formed from the swarming sentinels? Was that the Architect?
Some things that I did like:
The scene where the sentinels are flying in formation through the breaches in Zions roof; the fire and gloomy lighting was evocative of demons swarming through hell.
The whole concept of Smith taking over the matrix one being at a time, absorbing both programs and people.
The tableau just before the final fight where Neo and Smith approach each other in the pouring rain.
It was interesting how the only way to defeat the machines was to unite against a common enemy; but the machines still retain the upper hand.
When Neo was blinded, yet could still "see", was I the only one who remembered Herbert's Dune Messiah?
Muad'Dib!!!!!
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Mister P-Mosh
If you've not watched "The Animatrix" I would suggest doing so. Although it's mostly a tangent (except the flight of the Osirus which was a teaser out in theaters before the 2nd Matrix) there were a few explanations, such as the machine city. There were two parts that discussed the rise of the machines. Basically, humans had built robots and machines, and eventually a machine became intelligent enough that it killed a human (or maybe two, I forgot) in self-defense because they were going to shut it off. That was an event that started a robot holocaust, and the machines that survived escaped to the middle east and created a machine city. They built up their own society and advanced much further than when they were under the control of humans, and eventually went to mankind to try to make peace. This failed, and eventually the war started and the machines won. Mankind had set off bombs in the sky in order to kill the solar power that the robots used, which is what lead to the machines needing to use humans as a power source, as well as to deal with the problem of humans.
It's been a while since I've watched it, so I'd suggest you watch it for yourself and see what's there.
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Zixar
Oak: About Bane...
If you recall in Matrix 2, there was a scene where two people are in a room waiting for the phone call to exit the Matrix. One tells the other to go first because of the vital info he's carrying. Phone rings, one guy leaves. Just then, Agent Smith comes in and does his hand-in-the-gut/oilslick takeover for the first time on the other one. As soon as he transforms into the second Smith, the phone rings again and new Smith picks it up, transferring himself into the second guy's body.
The second guy was Bane.
There might just be a signature in here ==v
You! Out of the gene pool!
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Jbarrax
Didn't have a big cool fight scene??? Come now, Neo and Smith had a humdinger of a knock down drag-out. Not only dig they knock each other down,they knocked down buildings and made craters in the process. Personally, I thought this was one of the best parts of the movie. I saw it as the modern cinematic version of something akin to the Superman Vs. Doomsday battle in the Death of Superman comic book. Yes I said comic book. I used to read and collect comics and I've always thought of the Matrix as a cinematic adaptation of a comic book. (Hey Zix, you're a comic book fan,aren't ya? Isn't there a Matrix comic book?) The way Neo flies around the Matrix is evocative of Superman. In fact, I think there was a line in Reloaded about him doing his "Superman thing". But I digress. Suffice to say, that as a comic book fan, I thoroughly enjoyed the Neo-Smith fight scene. It's just the way It should have been portrayed.
JerryB
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Jbarrax
Nifty new trick there, Zix. The only thing I was confused about is the relationship between the Architect and "The Source". When Neo went to the Oracle, she said something about the One getting help from or going back to The Source. Since Neo has always been a Messianic character, I assume the Source is supposed to reperesent God.
Unfortunately, the role of The Architect seemed to fill that role in Reloaded; especially since he told Neo he had designed the Matrix as a human paradise, but humanity's inherent flaws ruined it. Very Genesis-like.
But in Revolutions, the Oracal speaks of the Architect being limited in understanding and insight and obviously his power is trumped by that of "The Source"; the machine face with whom Neo made the deal for the preservation of mankind and the freedom of those who wanted out of the Matrix. So it seems there are two Godlike beings with whom Neo deals, one superior to the other.
This may be a really long stretch, but it reminds me of Gnosticism. One of the more controversial tenets of Gnosticism is that the "God" of the Old Testament is actually Lucifer, and the Father of Jesus Christ, the Creator, is the true and Supreme God. The Gnostic version of Geneiss presents Lucifer as one who thinks he's the supreme being until confronted by the true God. I think perhaps the Architect is the Warchowski Bros. version of the Gnostic Lucifer (after all, he does have all of humanity in prison) and "The Source", who helps Neo free mankind is the True God. I think the fact that the only ones who get out of the Matrix are those who want out is also a nifty parallel to Christianity. "Whosoever will may come" or something like that.
By the way Wayfer Not, I think the reason Trin died was to fire Neo up and remind him he was fighting for the survival of mankind. Despite the fact that she didn't make it, it was still a triumph of love and faith, imho.
Well, I've yammered enough for now. What do you all think?
Peace
JerryB
[This message was edited by Jbarrax on November 08, 2003 at 22:56.]
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TheInvisibleDan
No, it's not a stretch at all. From the first movie, the ideas throughout (from Neo receiving his "call" to "waking up" from the worldly stupor and all its illusions; of humans being used by the machines for power, cf. the sparks of the divine being trapped and held captive in the world and its angelic overseers) are excellent illustrations of the themes in Christian-gnosticism. A decent introduction and review for gnostic themes can be found in "The Gnostic Religion" by Hans Jonas. He does an excellent job in providing an overview of the various ideas common amongst the gnostic movements.
I would be more tempted, perhaps, to associate the "Architect" with the creator "demiurge" or atificer - not necessarily Lucifer. Lucifer and the creator-demiurge of the OT were oft viewed in gnostic movements as two distinctive entities. Though I have encountered the opinion of at least one writer, Joseph Turmel, who proposed that if anyone identified the OT creator-god with Lucifer, it was the author of the gospel of John. But outside of that, many gnostics maintained the distinction between the two.
Until I see the third Matrix installment, just from what I've gathered here so far, I wonder if Agent Smith wouldn't fit the "Lucifer" role better, though this may be premature on my part.
Danny
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Jbarrax
Thanks for the clarification Dan. Your input is always invaluable.
JerryB
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